Need alternative to Zoloft

[goslamacamel]

5-HTP at night, L-Tyrosine and Rhodiola rosea in the morning. Never felt better or happier.

 

[Hyde12]

I'll be the first one to say tell anyone with half their wits that psychiatric medicine is NOT a road that they want to go down.

Eliminate SSRIs right off the bat, for almost all cases of depression are due to imbalances (or lack of) dopamine and norepinephrine. SSRIs do (and will) have that numbing effect that everyone seems to worry about. If you have low dopamine and norepinephrine, taking additional serotonergic compounds will merely make one content in his/her own miserable situation. Dopamine allows one the will to act in order to take care of things and deal with issues, whilst norepinephrine provides the energy/wakefulness to do so.

I'm surprised not to see DL-Phenylalanine in the mix. It's ranked by many as the best anti-depressant available, OTC or not. It is a racemic mixture of D & L phenylalanine. The D form is responsible for inhibiting the breakdown of endorphins and the L form is a precursor to PEA (the body's natural anti-depressant) and tyrosine which converts to thyroid hormone and dopamine. Low thyroid hormone is also a common cause of depression, so this is a double bonus here. Dopamine will additionally convert to norepinephrine as well.

People sometimes also underestimate the diminished endorphin levels in relation to depression. Endorphins deteriorate with physical and mental stress along with poor diet. Ever feel PAIN when you're depressed? Ever binge eat when you're depressed? It may be your body's attempt to release endorphins.

Again, I think SSRIs are horrible ideas for depression for too many reasons. I also think tryptophan is a piss poor choice for depression. It may alleviate symptoms in some cases, but more serotonin will pretty much mask everything and make it seem ok.

The tryptophan found in Lean Dreams is tryptophan ethyl ester. I've never seen it before in ANY other formula and there are not much human studies on it and no published studies for depression treatment with it. It kinda reminds me of ALRI putting a 'sulbutiamine-like' compound in Venom HD (Sulbutiamine is isobutyrylthiamine disulfide and Venom has something called isobutyrylthiamine trisulfide). There exists no literature on this compound whatsoever. Does it exist? Maybe?

Anyhow, if you are using the DLPA and wish to take 1 mg of melatonin and 50mg 5-HTP at night for a better night sleep, this is a feasible application.

Hope I can help.

Thats some good posting FOG.

 

[Force of Green]

Thats some good posting FOG.

thanks Hyde:wave:

 

[nattydisaster]

dude just go to the grocery store and buy some cheap whatever vitamin and tell her they are generic...antidepressants are horrible...if she thinks shes taking them odds are it will be the same as if she is.

 

[Force of Green]

dude just go to the grocery store and buy some cheap whatever vitamin and tell her they are generic...antidepressants are horrible...if she thinks shes taking them odds are it will be the same as if she is.

Deception is no way to help someone in need.

 

[ecu19]

dude just go to the grocery store and buy some cheap whatever vitamin and tell her they are generic...antidepressants are horrible...if she thinks shes taking them odds are it will be the same as if she is.

Terrible idea, would NOT recommend at all.

 

[nattydisaster]

sorry i didnt know you guys knew the girl personally, he was just making it out to seem like she didnt need them at all...being he was looking for OTC drugs

 

[krazy]

Perhaps our definitions of depression are different. I have not suggested that SSRIs (or other antidepressants) be routinely prescribed for minor mood issues that should could otherwise be dealt with using therapy/counseling/exercise/etc. I am advocating the use of these meds in severe cases (major depressive disorder) where there are little, if any, alternatives.

...and I completely agree with you. My intent was trying to harp more on prescribing SSRIs for the 'minor mood issues' but not the major depressive episodes. To be honest, I rather hastily assumed the OP wasnt in reference to a major depressive situation. I assumed such a situation would have included details in the OP like 'my wife has had several suicide attempts' or, rather, a lack of a post to begin with since such a situation would so clearly require whatever antidepressant intervention possible. In hindsight, I admit that this was irresponsible to assume but perhaps you can see where I'm coming from now.

In fact, your dangerous statement ("Depression treatment should NEVER come down to SSRIs") prompted me to make my post. There are serious cases that necessitate the use of medication in order to get the person to a place where they can take advantage of other treatment alternatives. Since we know little about the OPs wife, I thought it was irresponsible for you to make a blanket statement about SSRIs having no place in treatment. In your last post you did state that you felt antidepressants could play a role in "major, severe depression", so perhaps your first comment was made in haste.

As I noted above, this was a little hasty, indeed. But, as I said, I didnt think that the OP would be making such a post if a majorly depressive person was at stake here. That would be even more dangerous that my statement, for sure.

I should clarify one of my comments. In the vast majority of cases where antidepressant therapy is absolutely necessary, there are little to no side effects THAT OUTWEIGH THE POTENTIAL LIFE-SAVING BENEFITS OF THE MEDICATIONS. I am well aware of how common sexual side effects are, but it often is not a deal breaker in appropriately prescribed cases.

Definitely. Agreed, once again.

Many patients are more than happy to deal with them in order to get their lives back. I'm not sure why you take exception to my comment that a good physician is required to appropriately prescribe these meds ("Dude, are you serious?") which I also agree can be overprescribed. I stand by my statement that good physicians, in any medical specialty, are essential in appropriately using medications. In fact, you admitted that you are willing to drive a far distance to get the care you need and deserve. The existence of bad doctors should not mean that good medications should not exist for those who need them. And, you assume too much when you commented about the OP's PCP ("You think the PCP that I almost guarantee the OP or any Joe Schmoe average American is going to walk into will be a 'GOOD' doctor? Dont fool yourself, buddy.") We have no idea what kind of care they have access to.

That is true. Perhaps that comment (and my general sentiment about SSRI prescription) is because I am a bit distrustful of doctors after my past few years with them. At 18, I was handed an SSRI for telling my doctor I felt a little blue. He asked no questions, had no hesitation, and did no labwork before prescribing. Thank god I researched that first and only took it once before flushing it down the toilet and finding a new doctor. In another instance, I had a compound pharmacist (admittedly, not a MD) prescribe me a TRT protocol that was wonton and insufficiently labworked (I wasnt even checked for having either primary or secondary hypogonadism!). At the age of 20 and suffering from low T, a pivotal time in a man's life hormonally, having someone not take the time to really check into my situation was one of the last straws I had for medicine. This is not to mention that my situation with my psychiatrist is such that they pretty much just authorize which ADD medications I want to attempt because I personally read up on that area of psychiatric medicine more than they do. And dont forget the filth that is big pharma, company reps, and $$.

My personal experience of having 'BAD' doctors has led me to believe that 'GOOD' doctors are few and very far between.

I agree that every patient with a "mental illness" should first have a complete workup to rule out so-called "organic" causes. I also agree that brain/behaviour issues are influenced by a "vastly huge network of bodily systems very closely wired together". Thyroid problems, tumors, endocrine issues, strokes, drug use, medication reactions, viral infections, and electrolyte/glucose abnormalities can ALL mimic depression. These causes must/will be considered by a "good" physican. As a medical resident in psychiatry, not a single patient was admitted to our unit without a CBC, EKG, thryoid check, renal panel, and tox screen (among other tests at our discretion depending on the case). MRIs were routinely ordered as well.

You sound like a 'GOOD' physician. Promise you wont forget about lifestyle, diet, sleep, and exercise in your treatments, though. (Oh Doc, I forgot to mention, I sleep 4 hours a night because Im drinking energy drinks, eat pizza for every meal, and I have no idea why I'm ADD and a little depressed..)

I think you are overemphasizing the role of serotonin in depression. While obviously important, few psychiatrists believe in the simple/old model that depression is simply a shortage of any one neurotransmitter. SSRIs increase serotonin in the brain WITHIN HOURS of the first dose. However, it is usually weeks before a patient sees a significant improvement in mood. If it were just a matter of a shortage of serotonin, a person's depression would be alleviated within hours of the first dose. Clearly there is some other pathway that is RESPONDING to the serotonin that ultimately results in feeling better, rather than the presence of serotonin itself. This also explains why other antidepressants that don't primarily effect serotonin (Effexor, Wellbutrin, Cymbalta) are just as effective as SSRIs.

I was not aware of the instant increase in serotonin. Definitely a valid point, too.

There is currently no lab test in existance that can check your brain for a shortage of any neurotransmitter, so most psychiatrists have to treat based on symptoms. You stated that " those same triggers that got you into that given hormonal mess (or any other mess of health) can do the same in reverse... no SSRI required". I agree. Sometimes. However, sometimes the damage is so substantial that simply removing the offending factor doesn't fix the problem. It's like quitting smoking AFTER you get lung cancer. You still require treatment for the cancer. After treatment, however, not smoking will improve your chances of remaining cancer free.

Yes, I agree. But, at that stage, arent we talking about drug use or perhaps even physical brain damage instead of 'organic' depression? And I dont mean depression induced by physical/verbal/sexual abuse or trauma, either. Thats a whole 'nother ballgame.

I have PERSONALLY seen hundreds of lives saved because of antidepressant therapy. In these severe cases, the part of the brain responsible for providing pleasure/comfort/satisfaction is no longer working, and the patient experiences constant fear and sadness. Talking, sleeping, eating well, and exercising will do nothing for these people, at least in this acute state of crisis. Their brains are betraying them and, at least initially, the cause is not important. Whether it was trauma, stress, abuse, or genetic factors, a severely depressed person needs medication before they can work on changing life factors. I'm sure you and I would agree that problems in treatment decisions lie in the "grey" areas: those patients that aren't miserable/suicidally depressed, and simply are sad or stressed. Do you treat these people with medications? Are potential side effects worth it?

Precisely.

I would encourage you to do some more research on the positive side of antidepressant therapy. Sleep, weight, and eating habits (and even sexual issues) often IMPROVE on these meds (again, when they are prescribed correctly). When sexual side effects occur, they go away when the medication dose is stopped/changed. THEY ARE NOT PERMANENT (Where did you get this?).

Hopefully you dont mind speaking in terms of PubMed for the sake of formatting and brevity...
PMID: 10380144
PMID: 18173768

I'm not sure what you think these meds do. They don't induce euphoria or "drug" you up. In fact, if you are a happy person, they won't make you happier. They will probably do nothing, or give you a few side effects. They fix a very specific biological problem, and if that problem isn't there, the meds will do nothing.

This is a somewhat misleading and subjective metric. I have been low grade chronically depressed from low T for the past few years. I took Lexapro for a little while and it definitely did more than a few side effects (mental fog, dead libido, feeling too emotionally out of whack). I dont think they are 'benign' in such a way that mistreatment with them is as safe and ineffective as you feel they are... thats what we are conflicted about in the first place

It is a misconception that you become dependent on these meds or "use them as a crutch" instead of dealing with real issues. Please show me the source that supports your idea that these meds "reduce your ability to ever naturally (without drugs) experience happiness again". This simply is not true.

Alright ya got me. :rasp: After looking deeper into this one, I couldnt find any clinical proof of this. Ive probably heard too many anecdotal reports on this from surfing forums but, alas, no hard evidence for it.

True, many people must remain on these drugs for the rest of their lives in order prevent depression, but it is not because the meds have "ruined" their ability to fuction drug free. It is the DEPRESSION and the resulting damage that has taken away their ability to function without meds. Again, this is only in extreme cases.

Believe it or not, I am a strong advocate for keeping people off meds at all costs if it is in their best interests. However, it is simply ridiculous for you to say "tell your sister in law she is a ****ing nut" for wanting to help. You state this with way too much conviction for someone who knows nothing about these people, and this is potentially dangerous. I respect your opinion, but not when you impose it on other people.

Thanks for the informative and well-presented reply. I appreciated some clarification on this.

 

[Hurleyboy05]

I'd definitely look at any alternative before going the prescription route (unless it's badly needed - which it doesn't seem to be) but I just weened myself off of Effexor XR. You wanna talk about withdraws! I've never purposely put myself though anything as bad as that. But really, if someone goes the 'scrip direction they need to be 100% for it beforehand. My $.02

 

[JJC]

This is a somewhat misleading and subjective metric. I have been low grade chronically depressed from low T for the past few years. I took Lexapro for a little while and it definitely did more than a few side effects (mental fog, dead libido, feeling too emotionally out of whack). I dont think they are 'benign' in such a way that mistreatment with them is as safe and ineffective as you feel they are... thats what we are conflicted about in the first place

This is exactly what people are talking about when they say that a majority of people who are correctly treated with SSRIs do not exhibit severe side effects. When you find the right treatment for what your condition is, the drugs will work as they "should". The "side effects" of the drug are how it is helping you.

When you, for instance, were diagnosed as chronically depressed, you were prescribed Lexapro. You experienced sides that definitely disagreed with you and left a bitter taste in your mouth (so to say) about SSRIs in general. The issue here is that you found out that your depression was not caused by a neurotransmitter imbalance but by a hormonal imbalance. When you are using drugs to treat a condition but find out that it is not directly treating the source of it, of course you are going to feel the side-effects because you are now throwing something out of whack which was relatively fine in the first place.

And yes, I know that Wellbutrin works on norepi and dopamine and not serotonin. I am well aware of that. I should have clarified that I was on Wellbutrin alone before we added the Lexapro. The Wellbutrin helped with energy and motivation but it did not treat my depression. It merely helped me regain the feeling of excitement, motivation, and the ability to look forward to things. Once I went back on an SSRI, my depressive episodes (which would span for days) become more manageable. Because I was happier more often, my libido returned because instead of being upset and unwilling to have sex, I felt content and excited about life.

Bottom line, odds are that if you are experiencing side effects more so than the aim of the medication itself, then you are attacking the problem from the wrong angle and are on the wrong type of treatment for your condition. There are many causes for depression that I'm sure you are aware of now, so to rule out SSRIs completely is a bit hasty. Just because it did not work for you and because you experienced "nasty" sides from these "hideous" drugs, does not mean that there are millions of people out there who will benefit from them.

 

[Force of Green]

This is exactly what people are talking about when they say that a majority of people who are correctly treated with SSRIs do not exhibit severe side effects. When you find the right treatment for what your condition is, the drugs will work as they "should". The "side effects" of the drug are how it is helping you.

When you, for instance, were diagnosed as chronically depressed, you were prescribed Lexapro. You experienced sides that definitely disagreed with you and left a bitter taste in your mouth (so to say) about SSRIs in general. The issue here is that you found out that your depression was not caused by a neurotransmitter imbalance but by a hormonal imbalance. When you are using drugs to treat a condition but find out that it is not directly treating the source of it, of course you are going to feel the side-effects because you are now throwing something out of whack which was relatively fine in the first place.

And yes, I know that Wellbutrin works on norepi and dopamine and not serotonin. I am well aware of that. I should have clarified that I was on Wellbutrin alone before we added the Lexapro. The Wellbutrin helped with energy and motivation but it did not treat my depression. It merely helped me regain the feeling of excitement, motivation, and the ability to look forward to things. Once I went back on an SSRI, my depressive episodes (which would span for days) become more manageable. Because I was happier more often, my libido returned because instead of being upset and unwilling to have sex, I felt content and excited about life.

Bottom line, odds are that if you are experiencing side effects more so than the aim of the medication itself, then you are attacking the problem from the wrong angle and are on the wrong type of treatment for your condition. There are many causes for depression that I'm sure you are aware of now, so to rule out SSRIs completely is a bit hasty. Just because it did not work for you and because you experienced "nasty" sides from these "hideous" drugs, does not mean that there are millions of people out there who will benefit from them.

I'll make a bold statement in saying that there is (virtually) no place for SSRIs in the medical and psychiatric community as far as being prescribed for people that are seeking a temporary solution to a better quality of life.

This is a debate worth getting into, so make some statements and let the games begin my new friend.

 

[goslamacamel]

I'll make a bold statement in saying that there is (virtually) no place for SSRIs in the medical and psychiatric community as far as being prescribed for people that are seeking a temporary solution to a better quality of life.

This is a debate worth getting into, so make some statements and let the games begin my new friend.

I like bold statements. Especially when they're correct.

 

[Force of Green]

I like bold statements. Especially when they're correct.

Haha. Yeah me too man.

 

[bkprice]

Many people believe they have depression, but it is possible they never learned the proper way to deal with stress.

The book by Dr.Paul, MindOS, is a great read that shows this, then teaches very practical and effective ways to combat depression. Not saying depression is not a real condition, but Meds should always be the last resort.

 

[Force of Green]

Many people believe they have depression, but it is possible they never learned the proper way to deal with stress.

The book by Dr.Paul, MindOS, is a great read that shows this, then teaches very practical and effective ways to combat depression. Not saying depression is not a real condition, but Meds should always be the last resort.

Good point about learning coping techniques.

Much of the time, depression is a result of a culmination of life stress events leading to a prolonged period of hopelessness and exhaustion. In which case their is a 99% likelihood that the stress caused severe and debilitating drainage to ones neurotransmitter reservoir. This being said, counseling would not be effective without something to address the chemical imbalance. You can pay a shrink to prescribe something like say... an SSRI (Lexapro) or an SNRI (Effexor/Cymbalta) or something atypical such as Wellbutrin which acts on NE and DA. What do these do? Instead of replenishing the brain, they just keep a given neurotransmitter literally entrapped in the post synaptic cleft so the little chemistry that's left will get stuck. Over time, even a sub-sufficient diet will provide enough aminos to convert into neurotransmitters and the protein based enzyme of the drug will act somewhat of a tighter gasket and eventually you'll feel better and better as more and more chemicals are overflowing.

....Or you can use amino acid therapy and give your body the hammer, nails, and lumber to start rebuilding itself.

This is only the half of therapy. Deconditioning of old methods and/or learning of new methods of coping with stress needs to take place. Need not I get into psychological methods & approaches... whatever

Anyhow... whichever route is chosen, whether it be drugs or amino acids, new behavior must be developed. Too often people see a psychiatrist and not a psychologist or counselor. This is beyond assanine.

Also, I would advise bloodwork. Depression, chronic fatigue, etc. are WAY TOO OFTEN misdiagnoses of improper diet! This includes everything from food allergies to eating 1 meal a day! LOL. Bloodwork will show certain antibodies for allergic reactions.

Also, nutritional advice should be required! Like I said before, eating the right way can cure most ailments.

My hands are getting tired....

Either way you choose, don't use the progression of medication or amino acid therapy as an excuse to ignore the problem. A long term game plan must be developed. Ween off of any anti-depressant and without proper strategy, you'll end up at square one or possibly worse. Cessation of amino acid therapy without a proper diet and lifestyle plan can also just delay the inevitable, as your brain chemistry will likely diminish once again because stress will start getting the best of you yet another time

Hope this helps many.

 

[JJC]

I'll make a bold statement in saying that there is (virtually) no place for SSRIs in the medical and psychiatric community as far as being prescribed for people that are seeking a temporary solution to a better quality of life.

This is a debate worth getting into, so make some statements and let the games begin my new friend.

I'm going to make a bold statement as well. I don't think you have experienced REAL depression or have known anyone with real depressive, manic, or anxious episodes. The comments I am reading remind me of people who seem to think they know an awful lot about something they have never experienced (eg people who give out steroid advice when they've never done a cycle before).

In no way, shape, or form am I stating or recommending that prescription medication is the answer to all of your problems. It will not fix you. I said it earlier, they are not magic pills. In conjunction with proper medical observation and medication administration, therapy is of utmost importance. In many cases, it can be a matter of learning how to deal with stress or manage your life style, whether it be diet, exercise, or what have you which will help you conquer your mental health issues. If you have ever suffered from depressive episodes for a prolonged period of time or simply have depression, then you would know the impossibility of thinking your way out of them. It just cannot be done that easily. For some people who are just having difficult times in their lives, they can use the medication to bring them to a point where they can begin dealing with their issues and then slowly ween themselves off once they have gotten some real help. For others, medication and therapy are a life-long solution. Every body is different. We are all humans but in no way are we constructed equally.

Real depression, anxiety, mania, etc are disorders just like any other illnesses. You cannot think your way out of schizophrenia, can you?

 

[Force of Green]

I'm going to make a bold statement as well. I don't think you have experienced REAL depression or have known anyone with real depressive, manic, or anxious episodes. The comments I am reading remind me of people who seem to think they know an awful lot about something they have never experienced (eg people who give out steroid advice when they've never done a cycle before).

In no way, shape, or form am I stating or recommending that prescription medication is the answer to all of your problems. It will not fix you. I said it earlier, they are not magic pills. In conjunction with proper medical observation and medication administration, therapy is of utmost importance. In many cases, it can be a matter of learning how to deal with stress or manage your life style, whether it be diet, exercise, or what have you which will help you conquer your mental health issues. If you have ever suffered from depressive episodes for a prolonged period of time or simply have depression, then you would know the impossibility of thinking your way out of them. It just cannot be done that easily. For some people who are just having difficult times in their lives, they can use the medication to bring them to a point where they can begin dealing with their issues and then slowly ween themselves off once they have gotten some real help. For others, medication and therapy are a life-long solution. Every body is different. We are all humans but in no way are we constructed equally.

Real depression, anxiety, mania, etc are disorders just like any other illnesses. You cannot think your way out of schizophrenia, can you?

LOL, my friend... my comrade... hahaha... I may have more experience in the topic than you realize.

 

[Force of Green]

JJC, read me last post and give me some reps. Thanks!

The one before my last one I mean.

 

[JJC]

LOL, my friend... my comrade... hahaha... I may have more experience in the topic than you realize.

Well said...

We're probably on the same page here, but I think you're not giving enough credit to people to do their research on how to deal with their mental health issues. Or maybe I'm assuming that people already know that they should get therapy and start doing things to help themselves while on medication.

Either way, I would've given you reps but I'll wait til you get over yourself.

 

[weakestlink]

Well said...

We're probably on the same page here, but I think you're not giving enough credit to people to do their research on how to deal with their mental health issues. Or maybe I'm assuming that people already know that they should get therapy and start doing things to help themselves while on medication.

Either way, I would've given you reps but I'll wait til you get over yourself.

Missed out on a lot but JJC you seem to go my way on these issues. It is very had to explain the true disorders that one may have and I do believe that with proper medication along with therapy an individual can become aware of there disorder and learn to live and function very well when it comes to ADL. However I am against any type of self medication even if it is for mild anxiety as it could lead to worse things further on down the road. After all that is what this topic was about.
:cheers:

 

[Force of Green]

Well said...

We're probably on the same page here, but I think you're not giving enough credit to people to do their research on how to deal with their mental health issues. Or maybe I'm assuming that people already know that they should get therapy and start doing things to help themselves while on medication.

Either way, I would've given you reps but I'll wait til you get over yourself.

JJC, I think we're definitely on the same page here... I'm a firm believer in relieving pain (physical or mental) by any means necessary at the discretion of the victim. Therefore, I believe in medical Mary/Jane if it helps a patient feel relief of severe migraines, etc. and I also believe that if someone is suffering so badly after exhausting all other methods of pain-relief that he/she should be able to choose whether or not to have a medical professional terminate his/her life.

Substances such as SSRIs are provided too often as a first line of defense when in fact they should be the LAST RESORT or used in extreme cases only. I feel that they definitely function as great tranquilizers, no doubt, but for someone looking for a better quality of life whilst developing a stronghold for dealing with reality, SSRIs hold no therapeudic value what-so-ever.

 

[jdownesbaird]

I feel that they definitely function as great tranquilizers, no doubt, but for someone looking for a better quality of life whilst developing a stronghold for dealing with reality, SSRIs hold no therapeudic value what-so-ever.

This statement is simply false. What clinical knowledge/experience are you basing this statement on?

Are you suggesting that these medications somehow decrease your grasp of reality? What do you think these medications are? In an earlier post, you seemed to have a strong understanding of the neurochemical mechanisms of these drugs. However, now you inconsistently suggest these meds are nothing more than "tranquilizers". Do you know how these meds work, or what they do? Are you confusing them with benzodiazepines (Xanax, Valium, etc.)?

"No therapeutic value"? True major depression, by definition, is a distorted view of reality. The patient is incable of seeing/feeling hope, and the world seems completely dark, miserable, and frightening. He inaccurately feels he is worthless, alone, and weak. It is in this context of altered reality that antidepressants have THE MOST THERAPEUTIC VALUE, as they ultimately allow the patient to reconnect with the world. He is able, once again, to not only see that there are hopeful solutions, but to actually feel capable of taking advantage of them. In these patients, their grasp of reality is strengthened, and quality of life is improved.

While what I have just stated is my opinion, it is based on what I have experienced in a clinical setting on a daily basis.

 

[goslamacamel]

This statement is simply false. What clinical knowledge/experience are you basing this statement on?

Are you suggesting that these medications somehow decrease your grasp of reality? What do you think these medications are? In an earlier post, you seemed to have a strong understanding of the neurochemical mechanisms of these drugs. However, now you inconsistently suggest these meds are nothing more than "tranquilizers". Do you know how these meds work, or what they do? Are you confusing them with benzodiazepines (Xanax, Valium, etc.)?

Benzodiazepines own SSRI's. SSRI's are dehumanizing chemicals of the devil which make you careless as to whether you wreck your own car. You basically turn into a living zombie and lose personality, many times in a scary way.

I've tried both.

 

[jdownesbaird]

Benzodiazepines own SSRI's. SSRI's are dehumanizing chemicals of the devil which make you careless as to whether you wreck your own car. You basically turn into a living zombie and lose personality, many times in a scary way.

I've tried both.

Sorry for your terrible experience. These are powerful substances, and they effect everyone differently. However, your reaction is not typical. Were you closely monitored by a good psychiatrist at the time? Do you feel that you even required medical intervention, or were you eventually able to deal with your depression without medications?

Let me be very, very clear. I agree that these medications can be very damaging when wrongly prescribed. However, when prescribed appropriately they also have the profound ability to save lives. People who respond well to these meds literally feel like they have been brought back from the dead. I personally have seens hundreds of cases where patients sincerely believe that they would be dead if not for antidepressants.

I understand that you had a very personal and traumatic experience as (it appears) a direct result of medications. This would be enough to make me believe they are "dehumanizing chemicals of the devil". I am only defending these meds because I think they are very misunderstood, and I feel there should be no barriers (social or otherwise) to a suffering person who needs access to them.

And for the record, benzodiazepines are horrible medications for the treatment of depression. Unfortunately, many family doctors don't understand this.

 

[lonewolf77]

I am getting a bit scared. I use Aropax (in US its called Paxil i think). Its for mild anxiety. I occasionally get sort of depressed or anxious / panic attacks over nothing but they arent extreme or anything very large. But they are bad enough to have ruined my relationship with my long term girlfriend. Anyway the psychiatrist i went to did not do any blood work or anything. He spoke to me a few times over months. He only has time to see me once a month.

And after a few visits when i finally started to see that i do have an anxiety problem (after my dad passed away and then my girlfriend left me) and acknowledging that its been keeping me back from certain experiences for like 10 years or more, he prescribed Aropax / Paxil to me. But a lot of my friends feel that i am not that bad and dont need meds but rather i should go see a psychologist or someone who can use other methods to help me deal with anxiety and confidence etc.

The issue is that i have felt the side effects, i feel a lot weaker and more tired. My libido and sex drive has gown down dramatically while before it was EXTREMELY HIGH (all my exs used to always complain about it). I have put on some weight and my sports suffers from me being tired ( i play competition sports 4-5 times a week). My weight training hasnt suffered too much but it is hard cos i do feel tired or weak a lot. It has gotten better. The tired and weakness feeling is nowhere near as bad as it was in the beginning but then again maybe i am just used to it now. The libido is still very low though.

I dont want any permanent effects though, i like having a high libido. I am tempted to stop taking the meds and maybe try other methods, i dont really know how much the meds have helped me. I dont feel like they have helped me immensely but maybe they have stopped the occasional axiety issues or emotional outburts.... Then again maybe they havent. I really cant say one way or another. I do know i havent been able to cry once since i went on them. Perhaps i should go on St Johns Wort and go see a psychologist.

 

[Force of Green]

This statement is simply false. What clinical knowledge/experience are you basing this statement on?

Are you suggesting that these medications somehow decrease your grasp of reality? What do you think these medications are? In an earlier post, you seemed to have a strong understanding of the neurochemical mechanisms of these drugs. However, now you inconsistently suggest these meds are nothing more than "tranquilizers". Do you know how these meds work, or what they do? Are you confusing them with benzodiazepines (Xanax, Valium, etc.)?

"No therapeutic value"? True major depression, by definition, is a distorted view of reality. The patient is incable of seeing/feeling hope, and the world seems completely dark, miserable, and frightening. He inaccurately feels he is worthless, alone, and weak. It is in this context of altered reality that antidepressants have THE MOST THERAPEUTIC VALUE, as they ultimately allow the patient to reconnect with the world. He is able, once again, to not only see that there are hopeful solutions, but to actually feel capable of taking advantage of them. In these patients, their grasp of reality is strengthened, and quality of life is improved.

While what I have just stated is my opinion, it is based on what I have experienced in a clinical setting on a daily basis.

It's tired and I'm late... hahaha... I mean it's late and I'm tired, so I'll just put down a couple things so I don't say too much.

I know what depression is you fool. I have an extensive background in psychopharmacology and a degree in psych (high honors grad). I could argue the same fricken thing that you're arguing for SSRIs for crystal meth. I was so much more in touch with the world when I was on speed and my depression was definitely far enough in the distance beyond the eye can see.

You know what dude, to be honest I am tired of trying to debate and help a select handful of nitwits who try to question my knowledge and integrity. I can sit down with you for hours talking about this stuff... it's not even worth finishing my sentence... lol.

I'll say one thing though. Your opinions on SSRIs getting people in touch with reality and giving them a better quality of life... I can ask every pot-smoker I know about how MJ effects their quality of life and 9 out of 10 will give me a spiel for hours and hours on how healthy it is and how it actually puts them in touch with their higher self, etc... but that argument is not worth my time and it's not worth the readers time.

 

[jdownesbaird]

It's tired and I'm late... hahaha... I mean it's late and I'm tired, so I'll just put down a couple things so I don't say too much.

I know what depression is you fool. I have an extensive background in psychopharmacology and a degree in psych (high honors grad). I could argue the same fricken thing that you're arguing for SSRIs for crystal meth. I was so much more in touch with the world when I was on speed and my depression was definitely far enough in the distance beyond the eye can see.

You know what dude, to be honest I am tired of trying to debate and help a select handful of nitwits who try to question my knowledge and integrity. I can sit down with you for hours talking about this stuff... it's not even worth finishing my sentence... lol.

I'll say one thing though. Your opinions on SSRIs getting people in touch with reality and giving them a better quality of life... I can ask every pot-smoker I know about how MJ effects their quality of life and 9 out of 10 will give me a spiel for hours and hours on how healthy it is and how it actually puts them in touch with their higher self, etc... but that argument is not worth my time and it's not worth the readers time.

Clearly I misjudged you. I thought you might be someone who could engage in a good argument, but obviously you are having a difficult time getting past your own ego. No one was attacking you or questioning your integrity. You were just asked to defend your statements. You seemed to have such strong feelings about this issue, so I assumed they must be based on some type of experience/knowledge. Congratulations on your high honors, but degree dropping doesn't make your argument stronger.

Anyone with any background in psychopharmacology knows that SSRIs and other antidepressants do not effect the limbic system (pleasure center) in the way that illicit drugs like crystal meth and marijuana do. They act on the brain through a completely different pathway; SSRIs do not induce euphoria and are not habit-forming.

Crystal Meth = SSRIs? If you sincerely believe this, we have absolutely no common ground for argument, and further discussion is pointless.

 

[jdownesbaird]

I am getting a bit scared. I use Aropax (in US its called Paxil i think). Its for mild anxiety. I occasionally get sort of depressed or anxious / panic attacks over nothing but they arent extreme or anything very large. But they are bad enough to have ruined my relationship with my long term girlfriend. Anyway the psychiatrist i went to did not do any blood work or anything. He spoke to me a few times over months. He only has time to see me once a month.

And after a few visits when i finally started to see that i do have an anxiety problem (after my dad passed away and then my girlfriend left me) and acknowledging that its been keeping me back from certain experiences for like 10 years or more, he prescribed Aropax / Paxil to me. But a lot of my friends feel that i am not that bad and dont need meds but rather i should go see a psychologist or someone who can use other methods to help me deal with anxiety and confidence etc.

The issue is that i have felt the side effects, i feel a lot weaker and more tired. My libido and sex drive has gown down dramatically while before it was EXTREMELY HIGH (all my exs used to always complain about it). I have put on some weight and my sports suffers from me being tired ( i play competition sports 4-5 times a week). My weight training hasnt suffered too much but it is hard cos i do feel tired or weak a lot. It has gotten better. The tired and weakness feeling is nowhere near as bad as it was in the beginning but then again maybe i am just used to it now. The libido is still very low though.

I dont want any permanent effects though, i like having a high libido. I am tempted to stop taking the meds and maybe try other methods, i dont really know how much the meds have helped me. I dont feel like they have helped me immensely but maybe they have stopped the occasional axiety issues or emotional outburts.... Then again maybe they havent. I really cant say one way or another. I do know i havent been able to cry once since i went on them. Perhaps i should go on St Johns Wort and go see a psychologist.

Sounds like you've been going through a lot. I'm sure it's been incredibly difficult, and I hope things turn around for you.

I don't know what the answer is, but clearly your current regimen is not working for you. If you actually do need medications, you are clearly not on the appropriate medication or dose. You should not have to settle for just feeling numb all the time just to avoid the occasional anxiety. There might be better options for you (both pharmacological and otherwise). By the way, the effects on your libido are not permanent.

Yours seems like a case where the benefits clearly do not outweight the side effects. However, I know very little about you or your situation, so it would be careless of me to offer you any advice other than to encourage you to talk to your doctor about your concerns. Do you have a good relationship with him or her? From your post, it doesn't sound like you are very pleased with your doctor. Is there someone else you could see?

Paxil tends to cause sedation more commonly than some of the other antidepressants. Perhaps you could discuss with your doctor the possibility of switching to a medication with less sedation and sexual side effects. And, with a little encouragement your doctor will probably at least be willing to run some basic lab tests. Unfortunately with the state of insurance these days, some doctors are hesitant to order "unnecessary" tests that might actually be beneficial.

No matter what, do not stop taking your medication without first talking to your doctor.

Most people do not realize that St. John's Wort is actually an MAO inhibitor (a type of prescribed antidepressant). Granted, it has milder side effects and is from a "natural" source, but it changes brain chemistry through a similar mechanism. And, it has the potential to react with other medication/food. So in essence, you would still be on antidepressants.

Best of luck to you, my friend.

 

[Gtarzan81]

so, after 3 pages of crazy posts.....
How about that kava?

 

[Mach .78]

You're funny G.:lol:

Yea, I'm not going to get into writing paragraphs on pyschs and meds, or how America's reliance on meds is just terrible. I understand why some people need meds, but I mean EVERYBODY is taking them these days, thanks in part to the biggest drug dealer of them all, the Government.

My thread, although informative is way off track. Somebody is going to ask, "Well don't you want to help your wife?" Yep, I do and I also would like to know if anybody has had any experience with Bacopa Monneri, Kava (Thanks Gt), etc...

I have taken supplements as far back as 1988 or so and I have never taken meds for anything, still don't. I have been in white hot stressful situations. I've seen my mom go through Chemo after having alot of her organs taken out. While my Dad and I were in the hospital visiting her, our job was ending, without our knowledge. Still, no meds.

Just recently completed a total career change after not working for 2 years. My wife and I were both stressed living off of her commisioned salary. It almost sank us. No meds. We almost lost our house, again you get it.


Lonewolf, I'm sorry to here about your dad. Hang in there man and find out what you should be taking. Take the hits and get right back up.

The Kona kava didn't seem to work. I'm sure I'll try their paste here soon.

Oh look at that, 1988. That's when some of the Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread were what? 3 or 4 years old?

Sorry, had to go there. It's my thread.

 

[Force of Green]

deleted

 

[ecu19]

Oh look at that, 1988. That's when some of the Monday morning quarterbacks in this thread were what? 3 or 4 years old?

Sorry, had to go there. It's my thread.

So you're saying that because some of the posters in this thread are younger then you, that they have no idea what they are talking about? OK buddy.

If you'd like to call them out, go ahead, but I believe jdownesbaird and JJC have at LEAST some idea what they are talking about. That's probably an understatement though.

 

[Mach .78]

First of all, it's not buddy, it's Mach.

Second, I have no problem with what jdownsbaird and JJC are talking about. They actually sound like they know what they are talking about.

So you're saying that because some of the posters in this thread are younger then you, that they have no idea what they are talking about? OK buddy.

Actually no. What I am saying is that I don't need people taking my thread off track. Nor do I psychological advice or meds for my wife. It's the "Don't treat your wife's condition lightly, etc..." What condition? I said she's stressed from work like alot of us. My sister in law "suggested" the Zoloft. I said no.

I've been using supplements since some of these posters were 3 or 4, I'm not going to have Dr. bb.com poking his finger on my chest.

Finally, I'm the dumbass that put Zoloft in the title. I'll never do that again.

Thread example


Did you try blah blah?

Oh yea, I took blah blah for 6 months and it really took the edge off.

Did you stack blah blah with anything?

Yea, I stacked it with somethin somethin. The effects were even better than when I used blah blah alone.

 

[ecu19]

Actually no. What I am saying is that I don't need people taking my thread off track. Nor do I psychological advice or meds for my wife. It's the "Don't treat your wife's condition lightly, etc..." What condition? I said she's stressed from work like alot of us. My sister in law "suggested" the Zoloft. I said no.

Hmm, funny I remember reading

My wife gets spun up and out of control some times, she's a wild one I tell ya. She has ADD too.

Out of control hardly sounds like the "stressed from work" that you downplayed it to 3 pages later in your post. Neither does ADD, which is (in my opinion) highly over-diagnosed, but the ones who do have a problem benefit from the medication prescribed. For example: dextroamphetamine, or a cocktail of amphetamine salts (namely Adderall) which has about 4 different amphetamines in it.

ADD is real, I have seen a family friend when he is NOT on his ADD prescribed medication, and the differences are phenomenal when used as directed under the supervision of a Dr. or Psychologist.

Please choose your words more carefully next time when explaining the problem, because what you wrote at first was VERY different than what you just wrote above me. Believe it or not, most people here DO want to try and help others, and are genuine in their attempts.

 

[Force of Green]

Hmm, funny I remember reading


Out of control hardly sounds like the "stressed from work" that you downplayed it to 3 pages later in your post. Neither does ADD, which is (in my opinion) highly over-diagnosed, but the ones who do have a problem benefit from the medication prescribed. For example: dextroamphetamine, or a cocktail of amphetamine salts (namely Adderall) which has about 4 different amphetamines in it.

ADD is real, I have seen a family friend when he is NOT on his ADD prescribed medication, and the differences are phenomenal when used as directed under the supervision of a Dr. or Psychologist.

Please choose your words more carefully next time when explaining the problem, because what you wrote at first was VERY different than what you just wrote above me. Believe it or not, most people here DO want to try and help others, and are genuine in their attempts.

I agree that ADD/ADHD are definitely WAY overdiagnosed. I find great benefit from DL-Phenylalanine, tyrosine, and taurine. A low dose of deprenyl would go a LONG way with this combo I bet

 

[Mach .78]

Yea, now that I reread it. It sure is, haha.

I had to come back and add something.

Out of everybody telling me to take my wife to see a Pysch, how many of you are married? The married guys are laughing right now. If you are single, or have the most wonderful girl in the world. Cherish it now. Marriage will turn her into a head spinning beast from time to time. Don't believe me? Not going to listen to Dr. Mach? Go on, marry the angel.:box::chick::whip:

In post #30 here, I clearly addressed the "out of control sometimes
comment. Marriage will turn her into a head spinning beast from time to time
You can't say I'm downplaying any condition with a statement like that.

The communication problem we are having on this issue, is that the majority of the people posting "aren't married". It's like ahh, I don't know how to describe it. Can a married guy please help me out? Ok, It's like when a pitbull locks down on whatever it is attacking, and won't let go. I'll call it "Two personalities syndrome". I never believed married guys when they told me some of the stories. I do now. It's not bad being married, but it's a little different than being single. You can run away at will. Sex? When your wife doesn't feel like having sex and you do, too bad. Single? Go get it somewhere else.

I am aware that most of us are here to help each other. That's why I keep coming back.:thumbsup:

Update: Received the Bacopa Monnieri in the mail today. I tried it first of course. One dose so far and I think it hit me right in the libido. Hope her dose does the same thing. lol

I think this thread is jumping back on the tracks. I would also like to give a shout out to Force of Green for your supplement combos I've read up on. I love Cordygen 5, can't wait to try the Somnidren GH.

 

[MOHAWKA]

I just wanted to say that a few years ago my mom got on zoloft and it was pretty bad. She was like a totally different person, had a fake smile plastered on her face 24/7, was wayyyyy too happy, kinda freaked my bro and i out. haha those drugs are no joke!

 

[Force of Green]

In post #30 here, I clearly addressed the "out of control sometimes
comment. Marriage will turn her into a head spinning beast from time to time
You can't say I'm downplaying any condition with a statement like that.

The communication problem we are having on this issue, is that the majority of the people posting "aren't married". It's like ahh, I don't know how to describe it. Can a married guy please help me out? Ok, It's like when a pitbull locks down on whatever it is attacking, and won't let go. I'll call it "Two personalities syndrome". I never believed married guys when they told me some of the stories. I do now. It's not bad being married, but it's a little different than being single. You can run away at will. Sex? When your wife doesn't feel like having sex and you do, too bad. Single? Go get it somewhere else.

I am aware that most of us are here to help each other. That's why I keep coming back.:thumbsup:

Update: Received the Bacopa Monnieri in the mail today. I tried it first of course. One dose so far and I think it hit me right in the libido. Hope her dose does the same thing. lol

I think this thread is jumping back on the tracks. I would also like to give a shout out to Force of Green for your supplement combos I've read up on. I love Cordygen 5, can't wait to try the Somnidren GH.

Word up Mach. I always, ALWAYS make sure to have Cordygen 5 in my arsenal as well as MVP/ZMK.

 

[Force of Green]

I just wanted to say that a few years ago my mom got on zoloft and it was pretty bad. She was like a totally different person, had a fake smile plastered on her face 24/7, was wayyyyy too happy, kinda freaked my bro and i out. haha those drugs are no joke!

Agreed. Here's where I chime in yet again about these SSRIs... haha, and this time I'm really trying to remain on good terms and not butt heads with others following this thread.

Pharmaceutical companies have psychopharmacologists, chemists, scientists, etc. that are WAY ahead of the game and on a different agenda than many of us.

1. The goal is to MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE.
2. Money won't be made unless the product alleviates the symptoms of the problem.
3. Money will stop being paid by the patient if the product isn't required for extended periods of time.
4. Money will roll in much longer if when the patient discontinues the course of the medicine, the symptoms immediately return.
5. Money will roll in even LONGER if when the patient discontinues the course of the medicine, the symptoms not only return, but they are worse than before.
6. Money will roll in even LONGER AND LONGER if when the patient discontinues the course of the medicine, the symptoms not only return, and not only are they worse, but they also carry an array of new problems that are wrapped up in a nice package called 'discontinuation syndrome'.
7. Money will roll if MORE if a medication alleviates enough of the symptoms of the original issue, yet has intolerable side effects that can be alleviated by prescribing yet another medication. Example: Gee, the Paxil really helps me not want to run myself off that bridge, but I can't seem to get enough energy to make it through the day without wanting to sleep. Modafinal will help with that.
....or.... not able to get aroused anymore AT ALL? hmmm... Let's try a Wellbutrin and Paxil combo...

more to come when a response calls for it

 

[Mach .78]

Oh, I wanna add 8!

If we give the Government a decent portion of the money, they'll turn a blind eye to most of the side effects, and go after anything (supplements) that cuts into their profits. We can then repeat the process indefinitely.

The supplements have no studies backing them, some just have satisfied users for thousands of years.

 

[Gtarzan81]

A few FYI's as long as were in the middle of a resume pizzing contest:
I have an undergrad in psych. I was doing masters work, which is on hold at the moment due to finances.
I did a 50 page research paper on ADHD. If you want it, I can send it

I still like the kava (pills in my case), St Johns Wort, or 5HTP as an OTC substitute to heavier meds. In some cases, the heavier stuff is needed. No question about that. Is Mach's case one of those? I'm not sure.
BUT.....
Try lighter stuff, BEFORE going full bore with the big guns.
Thanks. I'll be here all week

 

[Force of Green]

A few FYI's as long as were in the middle of a resume pizzing contest:
I have an undergrad in psych. I was doing masters work, which is on hold at the moment due to finances.
I did a 50 page research paper on ADHD. If you want it, I can send it

I still like the kava (pills in my case), St Johns Wort, or 5HTP as an OTC substitute to heavier meds. In some cases, the heavier stuff is needed. No question about that. Is Mach's case one of those? I'm not sure.
BUT.....
Try lighter stuff, BEFORE going full bore with the big guns.
Thanks. I'll be here all week

I am the big gun, son.

 

[Gtarzan81]

I am the big gun, son.

Your 25, I'm 26. I aint son....son Whos yo daddy?

 

[Force of Green]

Your 25, I'm 26. I aint son....son Whos yo daddy?

Ooooh Snap.

 

[goslamacamel]

Am I weird for liking L-Theanine more/as much as Kava kava or Phenibut? Seems no one likes mentioning it or has no experience with it.
For me, what Taurine is to energy/endurance, L-Theanine is to happiness/contentedness.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

Hi allow me to chime in.

I first and foremost don't agree that SSRI's are a great sulotion to depression. Often times these merely treat the symptoms temperamental fix the problem. You'll be stuck on it forever, like crutch, its time to try other things.

Depression like most broad statements is caused by many things, not just the re-uptake of seretonin.

Which means there are many alternatives to the mood altering drug. Depression is a natural part of life for many of us, it can be stress at work, family, friends, lack of vitamin D for that matter.


But the truth is, without knowing the cause your throwing the silverware at the table to set it.

My suggestion is to knock easy things off the list and start with a pyramid scheme. Start at the top, and not at the bottom.

Lets start by looking at her nutrition, after you change the her diet, see if that makes a big difference.

Next!

Exercise, proven to stave off depression in many many many studies, in fact in most mental patience clinics. They are forced to exercise daily as part of there treatment.

Vitamin D!

Please try taking her tanning 70+ of all Americans are vitamin D deffeceint there are so many studies of the effects of lack of vitamin D its ridiculously. Not to mention Dairy products won't do it alone!

Activity's

Many people suffer from depression due to lack of activities and motivation in her life? Is she were she thought she'd be? Is she going foreword career wise? Does she want to try a new hobbies or activity. Maybe something knew you two can learn together can go along ways.

Now there are some supplements that I believe can go along ways.

Nuerotropics-

I personally advise to try some nuerotropics on top of whats been advised above.

A great all in one is called Get Smart, by smart nutrition

Fish oil of course will help.

As far as prescription goes,
Try Modofinil
or Provigil(label)

Its a great boost without side effects, will give energy.

Whats the sleep schedule like?

Also Drinking/drugs can be bad, if theres any habits that are taking there toll, nows the time to recognize them.

Also concealing is a great option.

Please don't get her all drugged out on SSRI's unless she becomes suicidal, you won't be waking up next to the same person after a while. Trust me, I've known to many people who have gone threw this.*(like most)* The ones that get pumped full of SSRI's never seem to come back, they usually stay hooked for life and the consequences can be life long.

Taking combination of supplements can be a good thing, but be careful and work them up slowly til you find a happy median.

I believe if you can balance your life, + a few healthy activity's you'll find the benefits to be life long and everlasting. Pills can only do so much.

Hope this helps!

 

[Dr Liftalot]

BTW if your wife is a manic depressive or BI-Polar II you put her on meds she will go nuts! I am Bi-polar I and let me tell you SSRI's will drive her right up the wall.

Don't do it, any doctor will tell you that. Your sister in law needs to get her head examen for recommending such things.

 

[Dr Liftalot]

Invalid Link Removed

My personal thoughts on Bi-polar

 

[tuberman]

Mach,

Nothing wrong with giving Bacopa Monnieri a shot. Especially if her problems are anxiety based. It seems to have healthy effects for the majority.

SSRI's do give some people real problems. I've seen someone get hyper on zoloft saying he couldn't keep hugh groups of thoughts from overwhelming his brain. Yet strong doses of 5-htp may do the same if a person has a tendency to react badly to seratonin.

As to self-medication... Ha! ... Everyone here self-medicates if you look at it in a true light.

As for the experts, witchdoctors knew their own people better than most of this "experts" do today. We get new batches of diseases and diagnosises every few years. Yeah, new diseases without real insight, it's magic -- in the weak sense, the very weak sense.

 

[Mach .78]

Just woke up, what a great spot to post.

ATTENTION: My wife took her Bacopa yesterday. I know it's early but she said she felt like her attention span had increased. She is a Sales Rep and she didn't meet her monthly goal yesterday. She was actually pretty calm about it. I've read enough reviews of Bacopa that we may already be seeing the effects.

Self medication is so rampant here. You're all a bunch of pill poppers!!!!!! And so am I.:cheers: