NDT/T3: Low body temp 96, high heart rate, can't raise temp in ratio.

Kuraudo

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(Please move if not the right forum) So I know this isn't a medical forum, but since you guys experiment with dosages all the time you know better than docs who only care about money and won't advise.. anyways this isn't a question regarding recreational usage, but mandatory thyroid replacement use:

So taking NDT (Natural dessicated thyroid) which can be purchased OTC it takes 210mg to reach 96.5-97.2 degrees oral temp. However, if I increase it anymore I only get rapid heart rate, imsomnia but no temperature increase.

The ratio of temperature increase is too low vs. the high heart rate. In the past, I have also tried T3 upwards it took a high dose of 50mcg to even reach anywhere close to 98 degrees , but then I'd a heart rate of 120 all day long. Even that is not guaranteed as most of the time it will be 97 with high heart rate.

Docs are really dumb, they say my temp is too high but I can't even function as I'm getting hypothermia , shivering to death.
Also they refused to prescribe me anything and that's regarding many docs I've seen.

Anyways, not sure if u know if T4 would be better, but that is hard for me to acquire. Thanks!
 

PhoenixGamer

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You have low cortisol. More thyroid will only make things worse for you as you have free thyroid in your blood not entering the cells throughout your body. You will get muscle loss if that hasn't already started happening. Do a 24 Hour Saliva Cortisol test to see your free cortisol levels. You need fix your weak adrenal function before thyroid (or any other hormones, like Test/GH to function at all). You then need to figure out why your adrenal glands are not producing cortisol. Could be many things, stress, trauma, but I'd look into your GI health. Post antibiotic use causes intestinal dysbiosis (bacteria/and or fungal overgrowth, SIBO, etc.) Research gut brain axis. This will prevent your body from signalling to produce sufficient cortisol.
 

Kuraudo

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You have low cortisol. More thyroid will only make things worse for you as you have free thyroid in your blood not entering the cells throughout your body. You will get muscle loss if that hasn't already started happening. Do a 24 Hour Saliva Cortisol test to see your free cortisol levels. You need fix your weak adrenal function before thyroid (or any other hormones, like Test/GH to function at all). You then need to figure out why your adrenal glands are not producing cortisol. Could be many things, stress, trauma, but I'd look into your GI health. Post antibiotic use causes intestinal dysbiosis (bacteria/and or fungal overgrowth, SIBO, etc.) Research gut brain axis. This will prevent your body from signalling to produce sufficient cortisol.
Ahh. Yes, you're definitely onto something. Even playing video games will stress me out, definitely a rollercoaster is a no no at this point even though I used to really like them.

I will take a adrenal test, I have heard this before too. Btw, do u know of any good supplements for adrenal fixes?

And yea you're right. The antibiotics from my doc totally wrecked me. I was on a pair of them at once due to back to back infections. I also had bloating for years, but I solved it with probiotics of high grade.

Thanks for the replies/tips!
 

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It needs to be a 24-hour saliva cortisol test. Blood test for cortisol is not accurate as it may be in range because it measures bound (not free) cortisol. The saliva measures free cortisol and it will be extremely accurate. You can also do a ACTH Stimulation test that an endocrinologist can order. They get a baseline blood cortisol level. Then they administer cosyntropin, this will stimulate your adrenal glands to produce cortisol and they measure your blood at 30 minutes after and again at 60 minutes post shot. In healthy people their cortisol levels go up very high. In your case, you may not produce much cortisol from your baseline. This will tell you how severe your adrenal insufficiency is. DO NOT take Hydrocortisone (cortisol) tablets for low cortisol. This will make things worse, despite what the endocrinologist will tell you. You need to fix the problem. Research gut-brain axis. Unfortunately, probiotics will never fix your gut because they are transient, they do not colonize the large intestines. Work with a Naturopath and have them order Genova Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis (CDSA) to see your colon's microbiome. You may need Fecal Microbiota Transplants (FMTs). Google everything I'm telling you. Antibiotics have wiped out entire human strains of good bacteria in your colon. They are no longer in your colon, the same as when they killed your pathogenic bacteria. The problem is that you now have dysbiosis as there are other bad bacteria strains that are still there out-competing the too few good bacteria remaining. The only way to fix this is by (ironically) taking antibiotics again BUT, then you must replace your microbiome with that of a healthy person's microbiome. I know it sounds nasty, but this is the only cure. They found out because C. Dificile infected patients would die because they kept taking antibiotics over and over until no good bacteria remained, thus leaving the bad pathogens to grow. By replacing the missing good strains of bacteria, they restore everything by preventing the bad bacteria from coming back. This gets rid of the constant inflammation, toxins (LPS). Also, you will absorb your food again. This fixes your low cortisol because you are currently infected with the dysbiosis daily and your body cannot signal to the brain to produce cortisol.
 
HIT4ME

HIT4ME

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In order to avoid further speculation and hypothesis, which may be all we can provide over the internet - do you have copies of your blood work that you would be willing to share? Especially over time?
 

Kuraudo

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To both of you. I will order the 24 hour cortisol kit and get back to you next month. All i know right now is that i have suppressed TSH, which Is normal for someone who takes NDT.

AnD Phoenixgamer: Indeed, I'm getting very VERY bad carpal, arthritis, random knee and muscle pains all over my body where I can't use my phone or PC much during the day. Inflammation, muscle mass loss probably.

In order to avoid further speculation and hypothesis, which may be all we can provide over the internet - do you have copies of your blood work that you would be willing to share? Especially over time?
 
HIT4ME

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To both of you. I will order the 24 hour cortisol kit and get back to you next month. All i know right now is that i have suppressed TSH, which Is normal for someone who takes NDT.

AnD Phoenixgamer: Indeed, I'm getting very VERY bad carpal, arthritis, random knee and muscle pains all over my body where I can't use my phone or PC much during the day. Inflammation, muscle mass loss probably.
Are you located in the US? Mind sharing what part?

If you can get your bloodwork up, a CBC at least may help eliminate some of the possible causes of those symptoms.

What you're describing could have a half dozen underlying causes, none of which have been remotely mentioned in this thread yet and need to be eliminated with actual evidence and not speculation.
 

Kuraudo

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I live in Southern Cali.
Q: WHAT is a CBC? STands for what?

So let's say i finish the 24 adrenal test. Then what? My docs have already chosen not to help me anyways. Even for my thryroid, my ndt comes 100% out of pocket, which is the only thing that gets me even somewhat better.

I don't have standard health insurance, the free one only. Btw, insurance is $400 MIN at my age, and UP. Higher since I need all kinds of ****. I hardly have any money in my bank, not just can't afford, but literally nearly broke.

So after I get the adrenal test, if I find its high or low, then what? Then docs have decided not to treat my thyroid either. Once I talk money, they somehow change their mind and have different results

So yea, I want the test results on that, but then I can't really do anything about it anyways so I might need that money to live, eat.

Are you located in the US? Mind sharing what part?

If you can get your bloodwork up, a CBC at least may help eliminate some of the possible causes of those symptoms.

What you're describing could have a half dozen underlying causes, none of which have been remotely mentioned in this thread yet and need to be eliminated with actual evidence and not speculation.
 

Kuraudo

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To anyone,
If I sound frustrated don't take it personally. It's been a long ass battle lol :p I thank you both for your assistance!

Would it be better to save, and make sure I have a bundle of money first before doing any tests? I really could use that $140 for the adrenal test, for like food. I only eat/drink the basics and don't go out. But I've been out of work because my condition keeps me from holding a job.

I want to go see a naturopath! How do I choose one? I know from people's YT channels they say they have to go through a few at least before they find a good one. THEN I know it costs $200 PER visit around h ere. I did call and ask.

I mean i could do the test and sit on it..but nothing would get resolved, and no food to eat.

It needs to be a 24-hour saliva cortisol test. Blood test for cortisol is not accurate as it may be in range because it measures bound (not free) cortisol. The saliva measures free cortisol and it will be extremely accurate. You can also do a ACTH Stimulation test that an endocrinologist can order. They get a baseline blood cortisol level. Then they administer cosyntropin, this will stimulate your adrenal glands to produce cortisol and they measure your blood at 30 minutes after and again at 60 minutes post shot. In healthy people their cortisol levels go up very high. In your case, you may not produce much cortisol from your baseline. This will tell you how severe your adrenal insufficiency is. DO NOT take Hydrocortisone (cortisol) tablets for low cortisol. This will make things worse, despite what the endocrinologist will tell you. You need to fix the problem. Research gut-brain axis. Unfortunately, probiotics will never fix your gut because they are transient, they do not colonize the large intestines. Work with a Naturopath and have them order Genova Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis (CDSA) to see your colon's microbiome. You may need Fecal Microbiota Transplants (FMTs). Google everything I'm telling you. Antibiotics have wiped out entire human strains of good bacteria in your colon. They are no longer in your colon, the same as when they killed your pathogenic bacteria. The problem is that you now have dysbiosis as there are other bad bacteria strains that are still there out-competing the too few good bacteria remaining. The only way to fix this is by (ironically) taking antibiotics again BUT, then you must replace your microbiome with that of a healthy person's microbiome. I know it sounds nasty, but this is the only cure. They found out because C. Dificile infected patients would die because they kept taking antibiotics over and over until no good bacteria remained, thus leaving the bad pathogens to grow. By replacing the missing good strains of bacteria, they restore everything by preventing the bad bacteria from coming back. This gets rid of the constant inflammation, toxins (LPS). Also, you will absorb your food again. This fixes your low cortisol because you are currently infected with the dysbiosis daily and your body cannot signal to the brain to produce cortisol.
 
HIT4ME

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I live in Southern Cali.
Q: WHAT is a CBC? STands for what?

So let's say i finish the 24 adrenal test. Then what? My docs have already chosen not to help me anyways. Even for my thryroid, my ndt comes 100% out of pocket, which is the only thing that gets me even somewhat better.

I don't have standard health insurance, the free one only. Btw, insurance is $400 MIN at my age, and UP. Higher since I need all kinds of ****. I hardly have any money in my bank, not just can't afford, but literally nearly broke.

So after I get the adrenal test, if I find its high or low, then what? Then docs have decided not to treat my thyroid either. Once I talk money, they somehow change their mind and have different results

So yea, I want the test results on that, but then I can't really do anything about it anyways so I might need that money to live, eat.
Sorry - CBC = Complete Blood Count. It is the test that shows how many red blood cells you have (RBC) and their size, shape, composition, etc. It seems like a simple test, but can give a lot of insight as too which paths you should go down next.

You can get a CBC for around $15 online, or if your doctor has already done bloodwork you can call them and ask for your blood work and they should give it to you.

I know everyone thinks their doctors are idiots. I have been in enough rooms with patients and doctors (with family and friends) to see how easy it is to have no understanding of all the things they are looking at and what they've already investigated without you knowing. And this is how it should be - if you came to me and I just said, "This could be a dozen things...how about this....nope, not that...how about this....nope, not that....maybe this? No, not that either." ....you would lose faith in me very quickly - Doctors have to have a strategic process to figure these things out and they don't want to talk about all the things they are merely eliminating to be safe, in order to not make you feel like they are shooting in the dark and also not to scare some patients who freak out over everything. Not saying you are freaking out over everything - but some people do, so it's a better strategy to play it cool.

I feel your pain on the money part. Don't look at this like you are solving a single problem. Look at it as you are building evidence for a case. If you can go to a doctor and show a solid test showing that you are out of range, they will be more likely to conduct their own test.

Plus, if it is high or low, at least you have a piece of evidence for what the next steps you should take are - you aren't just guessing.

But what if it comes back normal? What then? Other than a guess so far, based on some random symptoms, we have no real evidence to point to low cortisol.

Symptoms are not a great diagnostic tool - a dozen different diseases and issues could all have the same overlapping symptoms.

Low thyroid may have you feeling tired, achy, cold, etc.

Anemia, also may have you feeling tired, achy, cold, etc.

Addison's Disease may have you feeling tired, achy, cold, etc.

And so on and so forth with 3-4 more issues I could think of, and probably a dozen more I'm not even aware of.

As far as your thyroid - you said your TSH is low. This indicates an OVER-active, not an under-active thyroid. Since you are supplementing thyroid hormone, it would be a normal response to have low TSH. There is nothing to treat there, so I'm not sure what the doctors can treat? Plus, are we talking low but within range, or low and out of range?

If you have low TSH output, it could be from the NDT or from an underlying issue, but how can you tell if that's a meaningful number when you have been taking NDT?

Finally, low body temperature - my body temps are similar to yours with no thyroid issues, etc. Not everyone is 98.6 degrees and a lot of people are lower. Taking thyroid meds just to bring up body temps is not a proper approach - but you do sound like the cold is bothering you so it may be something that needs to be dealt with, we just need to figure out exactly what it could be.

The reason I asked about your region is because what you are describing can be symptoms of Lyme disease also. It may be good to get a test done, but it seems to be low probability in your region from what I just Google'd.

To anyone,
If I sound frustrated don't take it personally. It's been a long ass battle lol :p I thank you both for your assistance!

Would it be better to save, and make sure I have a bundle of money first before doing any tests? I really could use that $140 for the adrenal test, for like food. I only eat/drink the basics and don't go out. But I've been out of work because my condition keeps me from holding a job.

I want to go see a naturopath! How do I choose one? I know from people's YT channels they say they have to go through a few at least before they find a good one. THEN I know it costs $200 PER visit around h ere. I did call and ask.

I mean i could do the test and sit on it..but nothing would get resolved, and no food to eat.
Call your doctor and ask if you can get a copy of all of your blood work. That should be free. Yes, there are good doctors and bad doctors. It's hard to find a really good doctor.

If you can't work because you are too achy and cold to go to work - then you have every right to be frustrated. And of course, I get that it can be even more frustrating to have a bunch of people throwing out random ideas that you get hopeful are the answer and then find out it didn't help....
 

Kuraudo

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OK test results finally came back and my Cortisol is very high, way out of range except for around dinner time.
There's a strong thyroid -adrenal connection and thus why I'm not responding as well to thyroid dosages.

Doctors notes:
From ZRT Laboratory


Salivary cortisol is higher than the expected range throughout most of the day, with the exception of a normal evening cortisol. In an individual without significant stressors, cortisol is at its highest level in the morning shortly after awakening and steadily drops throughout the day, reaching the lowest level during sleep in the very early morning about 2 am. The most common adrenal stressors that can raise cortisol levels include psychological stressors (emotional), physical insults (surgery, injury, diseases), chemical exposure (environmental pollutants, excessive medications), hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), and pathogenic infections (bacterial, viral, fungal). Acute situational stressors (e.g., anxiety over unresolved situations, travel, work-related problems, wedding, holiday season, etc.) can also result in a transient increase in cortisol levels, which is a normal response to the stressor, but levels return to normal with removal of the stressor.

However, if the stressor persists the adrenal glands either continue to meet the demands of the stressor with high cortisol output, or become exhausted, wherein cortisol levels fall to normal or more commonly drop to a very low level. High cortisol production by the adrenal glands is a normal response to stressors and is essential for health. However, if high adrenal cortisol output persists over a prolonged period of time (months/years), excessive breakdown of normal tissues (muscle wasting, thinning of skin, bone loss) and immune suppression can result. Chronic high cortisol, particularly if it is elevated throughout the day or high at night, is associated most commonly with symptoms of sleep disturbances, vasomotor symptoms (hot flashes and night sweats despite normal or high estrogen levels), fatigue, depression, weight gain in the waist, bone loss, and anxiety. High cortisol can impair the actions of other hormones such as insulin and thyroid, causing tissue resistance to these hormones.

For additional information about strategies for supporting adrenal health and reducing stressors, the following books are worth reading: Adrenal Fatigue, by James L. Wilson, N.D., D.C., Ph.D.; The Cortisol Connection, by Shawn Talbott, Ph.D.; The End of Stress As We Know It by Bruce McEwen; Awakening Athena by Kenna Stephenson, MD; Thyroid Power, by Richard Shames, MD.


--------
Problem is I've had this for years since hypothyroid goiter started 9 yrs ago
 
HIT4ME

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Ok, so we have evidence if a symptom. Did you check with your doctor to get your blood work?

This is why it is hard to diagnose things without all of the evidence. It is easy to guess at something and it is the exact opposite thing or something totally different.

If you have know thyroid output, high cortisol...you may want to look into Cushing's disease. Have you ever been on prednisone or other corticosteroids?
 
HIT4ME

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But again...see...I am just guessing here based in symptoms which is why bloodwork or talking with your doctor is better.
 
HIT4ME

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Also - stay safe out there. High cortisol during Covid-19 is not a good combo.
 

Kuraudo

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But again...see...I am just guessing here based in symptoms which is why bloodwork or talking with your doctor is better.
Cortisol is done by saliva tests, 4x a day. Morning, mid morning, afternoon and before bed. Blood doesn't make sense for this kind of test. Graph is here

It's Hypothyroid btw. I have a T3/t4/TSH paper somewhere filed away.
 

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Cortisol is done by saliva tests, 4x a day. Morning, mid morning, afternoon and before bed. Blood doesn't make sense for this kind of test. Graph is here

It's Hypothyroid btw. I have a T3/t4/TSH paper somewhere filed away.
No, you're missing the point. What you have there is NOT a diagnosis. It is a symptom. Blood work gives a bigger picture so that you can figure out what your actual diagnosis is.

i.e. - sure you've got high cortisol - but why?

And you're hypothyroid - but you were taking enough NDT to present with low TSH - so confirming hypothyroidism would be a part of the actual diagnosis.

What I am pointing out here is the foolishness of trying to diagnose this over the internet, etc. The first answer you got on here was a definitive, "You are low on cortisol" - and if you treated that like the "cause" the obvious answer would have been to try to bring that up.

Guess what - turns out you were high cortisol. One possible condition that would cause that is Cushing's disease and following that advice could have been deadly. Now, the actual advice was to get tested - so that is fine, and you did that and you gathered SOME evidence - you're on the right path, but you are still way off from an actual diagnosis.

Also, have you tested blood sugar response? (more evidence)

Do you have known chronic stress? You may have issues internally that are creating stress and the cortisol response is a symptom of that - and these could be hinted at with blood work.

Take your cortisol test to a doctor. If your doctor is not helpful, find a new one.

I'm not sure what you mean with the "it's hypothyroid" part either. One thing to keep in mind is that elevated cortisol can also suppress TSH - which could make you appear to be hypothyroid (if TSH is suppressed, you will release less T4, T3 will drop).

This is actually a good example of how these tests are not, in themselves, a complete diagnosis. You could get a low T3 test and they jump right to, "Here, take T3" - but the problem isn't solved because the T3 was low because your TSH was suppressed because your cortisol was high because you have something like an ulcer that is getting worse. Of course, fixing the ulcer is the real issue - but taking more T3 will just get your T3 normal, suppress TSH more and make things more complicated.

Simple blood panels may show signs of an internal infection, loss of red blood cells (often do to bleeding or blood production issues), etc. The cortisol panel is just a single point of evidence.
 

Kuraudo

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Yea, everyone told me my cortisol is probably low, and the test proved that was not the case.

So what blood work do you want me to order and see?

I can't guarantee they will give me the bloodwork I ask, but I will try after the Covid crisis, its not safe to enter the doctors office rightr now.


Besides thyroid, I did test testosterone and basic vitamins. NO iron tests for some strange reason.
What is strange was my Testosterone tested as 1197 , but I've never taken any form of steroids. I'm only 134 lbs, no muscle to be seen lol. I thought high cortisol and low muscle mass would be destroying my testostorone. I'm at the age where it should be declining.

Lab test notes also said that any form of high cortisol would cause poor insulin response, which is why heart rate can go up even high when eating sugar (tho I've always been very immune to sugar before) . So I definitely would not call myself diabetic causing this problem, as its been told to me by the professional that its a symptom of the high cortisol.
 
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Yea, everyone told me my cortisol is probably low, and the test proved that was not the case.

So what blood work do you want me to order and see?

I can't guarantee they will give me the bloodwork I ask, but I will try after the Covid crisis, its not safe to enter the doctors office rightr now.


Besides thyroid, I did test testosterone and basic vitamins. NO iron tests for some strange reason.
What is strange was my Testosterone tested as 1197 , but I've never taken any form of steroids. I'm only 134 lbs, no muscle to be seen lol. I thought high cortisol and low muscle mass would be destroying my testostorone. I'm at the age where it should be declining.

Lab test notes also said that any form of high cortisol would cause poor insulin response, which is why heart rate can go up even high when eating sugar (tho I've always been very immune to sugar before) . So I definitely would not call myself diabetic causing this problem, as its been told to me by the professional that its a symptom of the high cortisol.
Valid point about visiting the doctor - completely agree. I would ask for a copy of whatever blood work they've run. I know it can be hard to ask, but be forceful - it is good to be aware of your history.

Really, I am a little out of my depth here so these are observations I have made. The trick doctors use is to gather evidence one step at a time. They will start with a basic blood panel write-up to see what comes back. That can be a little like reading the tea leaves, but obviously you have high cortisol - so if you come back with a high white blood count (indicating your body has an infection) or a low red blood cell count (indicating blood loss, or other diseases) - this gives more evidence of potential paths to go down. I will say, the white blood count example may be a bad example too - because corticosteroids can raise WBC levels too. So I'm not sure, but depending on the rest of the panel you may be able to find evidence that it is or is not likely a path worth looking into.

After that, you can try to use the first level of evidence to guide which tests to do next, and so on. Running all of the possible tests all at once would costs thousands of dollars probably and probably lead to more confusion than anything else.

If you go to Ultalabtests.com and choose "test panels" you can get a basic blood chemistry panel for $52 and that would be a really great starting point to get an idea of the general picture. Keep in mind, I'm not a doctor and I will try to help understand and provide my thoughts on this. You won't likely want to get this done now anyway with covid, but it's an option.

I think taking 8 grams/day of Vitamin C could be helpful right now - it will provide vitamin C for immune response and could have a minor impact on lowering cortisol, and ultimately it should be safe and not mess with too many things before we know what we're messing with.

Also - cortisol will often raise blood sugar. It can make your blood sugar go through the roof. My gf is on prednisone a lot for an autoimmune disease and her blood sugar can go into the high 200's after a small meal on it. This can trigger insulin sensitivity. Eat healthy as much as you can to help avoid this, but don't freak out about it. I would say if you have a test meter, it would just be another point of evidence to support corisol levels being high.

Are you on any specific diet?
 

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