Nattokinase & Cardiovascular Disease

[Hyde]

Wanted to share this because I found it so fascinating, and it really could help somebody out here. I was told years ago on this board by another member to take Nattokinase at least on cycle, but couldn’t find enough info at the time to really understand.

It appears Nattokinase can help lower bp, prevent blood clots, prevent arterial plaque formation and atherosclerosis, decrease thrombosis, forestall Alzheimer’s, and generally help prevent and treat cardiovascular disease.

It’s cheap, oral, long half-life, with a well respected safety profile having been a dietary staple in Japan forever. It sounds like 6,500 FU daily for an extended period is the dose for lower triglycerides, LDL, & slightly raises HDL:

Nattokinase: A Promising Alternative in Prevention and Treatment of Cardiovascular Diseases

Cardiovascular disease (CVD) is the leading cause of death in the world and our approach to the control and management of CVD mortality is limited. Nattokinase (NK), the most active ingredient of natto, possesses a variety of favourable cardiovascular ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sounds like a great alternative to daily baby aspirin. The one thing worth mentioning is it hasn’t been studied used in conjunction with other cardiovascular disease drugs like chronic aspirin use, etc, simultaneously, so stacking is unknown waters.

 

[jim2509]

Yeah I have a pot of it it along with say CEL cycle support, vitamins, garlic, fish oils, quercetin and MSM, but exactly for the reasons you have stated I have zero idea how it would react with any of them. It sounds good going off reports though.

 

[Nac]

Good stuff.

Id add that this stuff has also been demonstrated effective (particularly re platelets/thrombosis) at the 2000-4000fu (100-200mg) range.

Its a good point and one that is potentially overlooked, what kind of a negative cumulative effect could cocktailing this with, say:

K2/mk7
Fish oil
Pomegranate extract
Pine bark extract
Olive leaf extract
Coq10
Arjuna
Garlic extract
Etc etc

All these compounds do have their own unique attributes, but there is possible overlap of effect.

 

[jrock645]

Dante Trudel is a big fan of it. I need to get some and add it with my current on cycle regimen.

 

[Hyde]

Good stuff.

Id add that this stuff has also been demonstrated effective (particularly re platelets/thrombosis) at the 2000-4000fu (100-200mg) range.

Its a good point and one that is potentially overlooked, what kind of a negative cumulative effect could cocktailing this with, say:

K2/mk7
Fish oil
Pomegranate extract
Pine bark extract
Olive leaf extract
Coq10
Arjuna
Garlic extract
Etc etc

All these compounds do have their own unique attributes, but there is possible overlap of effect.

I am already running garlic, coq10, pine bark, pomegranate, fishoil, k2 concurrently, and a little Carditone on blast, which I believe has arjuna in it. So all of that except olive leaf. My n=1 short term experience has been that I haven’t died yet .

If I was taking statins or blood thinners I would be discussing it with a cardiologist before using it though, but regular healthy people in Japan not on these drugs safely eat natto every day (and are healthier for it).

Someone without cholesterol issues could indeed use only 2000 FU just for the anti-thrombosis effects based on that paper.

 

[Nac]

I think youre right, there is probably some point of diminishing returns regarding overlap. If you have mud for blood, no amount of suppz will return you to normal healthy viscosity; if you are somewhat normal/healthy and cruising, you probably dont need the kitchen-sink. Whilst blasting or on-cycle, maybe a more inclusive stack is preferrable.

 

[Hyde]

I think youre right, there is probably some point of diminishing returns regarding overlap. If you have mud for blood, no amount of suppz will return you to normal healthy viscosity; if you are somewhat normal/healthy and cruising, you probably dont need the kitchen-sink. Whilst blasting or on-cycle, maybe a more inclusive stack is preferrable.

Agreed. I just started the Nattokinase up (currently off cycle ~9.5 weeks) and will get bloods on the 26th, so I will have 3 weeks of 4,000 FU daily under my belt to see if anything funny changes with my blood count values.

 

[BBiceps]

I just ran into Nattokinase (I was looking for something else) so it was funny to see you starting a thread about it, it looks like good stuff, let me/us know about your blood work.

 

[jim2509]

Agreed. I just started the Nattokinase up (currently off cycle ~9.5 weeks) and will get bloods on the 26th, so I will have 3 weeks of 4,000 FU daily under my belt to see if anything funny changes with my blood count values.

Am taking Nattokinase 100mg 2000 FU along with quercetin 1000mg and MSM 2000mg, with the usual Co enzyme Q10, Aged Garlic, Fish Oils 3000mg, multivitamins + 500mg Vit B3, a GDA and MK677. Probably rattle when I walk.

 

[jrock645]

Current support stack is outrageous....

carditone
grape seed extract
resveratrol
CL red beat
MN lipid stabil
Astragalus
grapefruit seed extract
cardarine
fish oil/krill oil
baby aspirin, soon to be Nattokinase

 

[Afi140]

In to read later

 

[TheIronAsylum]

interdasting

 

[enhanced]

I run high bp, high cholesterol, and have thick blood.. I will be buying this right now.

 

[enhanced]

Looking for this on Amazon. Any brand better than the other?

 

[jrock645]

Looking for this on Amazon. Any brand better than the other?

I just went with NOW, as they're generally pretty reliable.

 

[Hyde]

Looking for this on Amazon. Any brand better than the other?

I would stick to well-establishes brands. Dr.’s Best, NOW, brands like Life Extension. Do not go with the very cheapest new brand on Amazon, for any supplement.

 

[kisaj]

Natto has been part of my protocol for ~10 years and will always be. No one had heard of it when I started taking it, but I had a specialist who used to study in Japan who was aware of all the benefits and said it was popular for cardio health over there. Now I hear about a lot of doctors that are either flat out recommending it or providing information on it as an alternative to aspirin.

Glad to see more people with awareness of it- especially on TRT.

 

[BBiceps]

Natto has been part of my protocol for ~10 years and will always be. No one had heard of it when I started taking it, but I had a specialist who used to study in Japan who was aware of all the benefits and said it was popular for cardio health over there. Now I hear about a lot of doctors that are either flat out recommending it or providing information on it as an alternative to aspirin.

Glad to see more people with awareness of it- especially on TRT.

What brand are you using?

 

[kisaj]

I use both Jarrow and Drs Best.

 

[Hyde]

Natto has been part of my protocol for ~10 years and will always be. No one had heard of it when I started taking it, but I had a specialist who used to study in Japan who was aware of all the benefits and said it was popular for cardio health over there. Now I hear about a lot of doctors that are either flat out recommending it or providing information on it as an alternative to aspirin.

Glad to see more people with awareness of it- especially on TRT.

What is your daily dosage, does it fluctuate ever (like when blasting), and do you divide doses or take it all at once?

 

[kisaj]

What is your daily dosage, does it fluctuate ever (like when blasting), and do you divide doses or take it all at once?

I don't blast anymore, but I would always keep it to a single dose at 2000FU.

 

[BBiceps]

I don't blast anymore, but I would always keep it to a single dose at 2000FU.

When is the best to take it?

 

[kisaj]

I wouldn’t think it matters, so I just always took it with my morning supplements.

 

[UNX]

Is the commercial brand Nattozimes gtg?

 

[enhanced]

When is the best to take it?

I purchased the NOW brand & it says to take on an empty stomach. I take one upon waking & another around 6 hours later.

 

[Hyde]

I purchased the NOW brand & it says to take on an empty stomach. I take one upon waking & another around 6 hours later.

My Dr’s Best suggests empty stomach as well.

 

[3clipseGT]

I take 2 caps of Drs Best on an empty stomach first thing. I should probably split the caps but that’s just how I have been dosing it.

 

[StarScream66]

I would recommend Life Extension in a blend they calll Venoflow. It contains:

Serving Size 1 vegetarian capsule

Amount Per Serving
VenoFlow™ Proprietary Blend

200 mg

Pycnogenol® French maritime pine extract (bark) [std. to 65% procyanidins], nattokinase (from soy natto extract) [providing 2,000 fibrinolytic units]

Other ingredients: microcrystalline cellulose, vegetable cellulose (capsule), dextrin, stearic acid, silica.

Non-GMO

Contains soybeans.

Pycnogenol® is a registered trademark of Horphag Research Ltd.[/url]

You can read more details about why they use this ingredient profile on their website.

VenoFlow™, 30 vegetarian capsules - Life Extension

LE’s VenoFlow™ promotes healthy extremity circulation for those of us who sit for long periods of time, like during long-distance travel or a long day at the office.

www.lifeextension.com

Source Naturals Heart Science is also a good multi with cardiovascular support in mind and it has some nattokinase in it. It contains a TON of heart healthy ingredients for maximum cardiovascular support, esp. while on cycle.

Supplement Facts for Tablet
Serving Size: 6 Tablets
Amount %DV
Calories 30
Total Carbohydrate 2 g <1%
Dietary Fiber 1 g 2%
Protein 1 g 2%
Vitamin A (as beta-carotene) 7,500 mcg 833%
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 1,000 mg 1,111%
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate & gamma-vitamin E complex) 268 mg 1,787%
Thiamin (vitamin B-1) 50 mg 4,168%
Niacin (vitamin B-3 as inositol hexanicotinate) 500 mg 3,125%
Vitamin B-6 (as pyridoxine HCl & pyridoxal-5'-phosphate [Coenzymated™]) 50 mg 2,941%
Folate (as folic acid) (800 mcg folic acid) 1,360 mcg DFE 340%
Vitamin B-12 (as methylcobalamin & dibencozide) 500 mcg 20,833%
Magnesium (as magnesium oxide) 300 mg 73%
Selenium (as L-selenomethionine) 200 mcg 363%
Copper (as copper sebacate) 750 mcg 83%
Chromium (as chromium polynicotinate [ChromeMate®] 150 mcg & picolinate 150 mcg) 300 mcg 860%
Sodium 20 mg 1%
Potassium (as potassium citrate) 99 mg 2%
L-Arginine HCl 500 mg
Bromelain (2,000 G.D.U. per gram) 500 mg
L-Taurine 500 mg
L-Carnitine Fumarate 400 mg
l-Lysine HCl 400 mg
L-Proline 400 mg
gamma-Vitamin E Complex 400 mg
Hawthorn Berry Extract 200 mg
Hawthorn Leaf & Flower Extract 200 mg
Inositol (as inositol hexanicotinate) 140 mg
Grape Seed Ext. (Proanthodyn™) 120 mg
N-Acetyl Glucosamine 100 mg
Turmeric Rhizome Extract (95% curcuminoids) 100 mg
Soybean Isoflavone Concentrate Yielding 40 mg Total Isoflavones 100 mg
Trimethylglycine (TMG) 100 mg
Horsetail Aerial Parts Extract (7% silica) 100 mg
Arjuna Bark Extract 100 mg
alpha-Lipoic Acid 100 mg
Coenzyme Q10 60 mg
Garlic Bulb (standardized to 10,000 ppm allicin) 60 mg
Ginkgo Leaf Ext. (24% flavone glycosides & 6% terpene lactones) 60 mg
Quercetin 50 mg
Superoxide Dismutase/Gliadin Complex (GliSODin®) 50 mg
Total Resveratrols (from Polygonum cuspidatum root ext.) 40 mg
Nattokinase (NSK-SD™) 36 mg
Guggul Ext. (10% guggulsterones) 30 mg
Myricetin (from bayberry leaf/bark extract) 25 mg
Tocotrienol Complex (EVNolMax™)

LEF also has a bunch of good articles on it.

Nattokinase And Vitamin K: The Heart Health Boost - Life Extension

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy food with an abundance of vitamin K. Here’s more on how it supports healthy blood flow and overall heart health.

blog.lifeextension.com

Nattokinase And Vitamin K: The Heart Health Boost - Life Extension

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy food with an abundance of vitamin K. Here’s more on how it supports healthy blood flow and overall heart health.

blog.lifeextension.com

Deep Vein Thrombosis Natural Prevention - Life Extension

According to the American College of Cardiology, those who sit more than 4 hours a day have a 48% increased risk of mortality from blood clots.

www.lifeextension.com

 

[Nac]

I would recommend Life Extension in a blend they calll Venoflow. It contains:

VenoFlow™, 30 vegetarian capsules - Life Extension

LE’s VenoFlow™ promotes healthy extremity circulation for those of us who sit for long periods of time, like during long-distance travel or a long day at the office.

www.lifeextension.com

Source Naturals Heart Science is also a good multi with cardiovascular support in mind and it has some nattokinase in it. It contains a TON of heart healthy ingredients for maximum cardiovascular support, esp. while on cycle.



LEF also has a bunch of good articles on it.

Nattokinase And Vitamin K: The Heart Health Boost - Life Extension

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy food with an abundance of vitamin K. Here’s more on how it supports healthy blood flow and overall heart health.

blog.lifeextension.com

Nattokinase And Vitamin K: The Heart Health Boost - Life Extension

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy food with an abundance of vitamin K. Here’s more on how it supports healthy blood flow and overall heart health.

blog.lifeextension.com

Deep Vein Thrombosis Natural Prevention - Life Extension

According to the American College of Cardiology, those who sit more than 4 hours a day have a 48% increased risk of mortality from blood clots.

www.lifeextension.com

The Venoflow has good ingredients, but the Pine bark is at the very low end of dosing (you want 200-300mg, from memory of the studies), and for the price itd be cheaper to buy DrsBest natto 90count and the non-patented NOW brands pine bark extract 90ct.

 

[StarScream66]

I had a pulmonary embolism and I had to take a drug that was around $500 (I used a discount card) and I took nattokinase with it to help aid in the process. I got over it and recovered, but it was a scary thing.

 

[Hyde]

The Venoflow has good ingredients, but the Pine bark is at the very low end of dosing (you want 200-300mg, from memory of the studies), and for the price itd be cheaper to buy DrsBest natto 90count and the non-patented NOW brands pine bark extract 90ct.

I believe Pycnogenol needs significantly less than other pine bark extracts to be effective (hence the considerably higher price tag).

 

[Nac]

I believe Pycnogenol needs significantly less than other pine bark extracts to be effective (hence the considerably higher price tag).

The Pycnogenol studies Ive seen used 100mg 3x per day. There may be others dosing less, of course.

There is also another study, I have it saved on my phone somewhere, that details the constituent breakdown of the actives that comprise Pycnogenol...the three main actives were all of lower quantity than a tested generic pine bark extract.

As far as I can tell, the only thing in favour of Pycnogenol is, you are supposedly guaranteed consistent quality over generic extracts.

 

[Hyde]

The Pycnogenol studies Ive seen used 100mg 3x per day. There may be others dosing less, of course.

There is also another study, I have it saved on my phone somewhere, that details the constituent breakdown of the actives that comprise Pycnogenol...the three main actives were all of lower quantity than a tested generic pine bark extract.

As far as I can tell, the only thing in favour of Pycnogenol is, you are supposedly guaranteed consistent quality over generic extracts.

Thank you, I will try to read up on this and save some cash!

 

[Nac]

Came across a cool study that used coq10 and pine bark in stable heart failure patients, where amongst other benefits there was a 22% increase in ejection fraction. The really cool thing...they only used 15mg Pycnogenol and 50mg ubiquinone, pretty small doses.

PycnoQ10® Benefits Heart

A Pycnogenol®/ Kaneka coenzyme Q10 (coQ10)combination (as PycnoQ10®, distributed by Natural Health Science Inc.) improves heart failure management without side effects when stable heart failure patients took the supplement in adjunct to medical treatment, according to a new study (Panminerva...

www.naturalproductsinsider.com

@CroLifter

 

[CroLifter]

@Nac if i understood correctly they were taking 350 mg of coq 10 daily. That would be hella expensive here where i fet it from.

I myself just take the 25 mg as recommended by my cardiologist, as he says because of my age there is no need for more.

But a woman i know who had a heart attack was recommended to take 120mg a day.

 

[Nac]

@Nac if i understood correctly they were taking 350 mg of coq 10 daily. That would be hella expensive here where i fet it from.

I myself just take the 25 mg as recommended by my cardiologist, as he says because of my age there is no need for more.

But a woman i know who had a heart attack was recommended to take 120mg a day.

"Patients were divided into two groups: one group received capsules with a combination of 15 mg Pycnogenol® and 50 mg CoQ10 from Kaneka"

^that's what I'm basing my numbers on, where did you get the 350mg from?

There's some interesting articles (possibly even studies? Cant remember...) that claim the much cheaper ubiquinon is ultimately just as effective as the more expensive ubiquinol.

 

[CroLifter]

"Patients were divided into two groups: one group received capsules with a combination of 15 mg Pycnogenol® and 50 mg CoQ10 from Kaneka"

^that's what I'm basing my numbers on, where did you get the 350mg from?

There's some interesting articles (possibly even studies? Cant remember...) that claim the much cheaper ubiquinon is ultimately just as effective as the more expensive ubiquinol.

Hm they said they took 7 capsules daily.

As far as i understood each capsule contains 15mg pycnogenol and 50mg coq10.

 

[Nac]

Hm they said they took 7 capsules daily.

As far as i understood each capsule contains 15mg pycnogenol and 50mg coq10.

Ahh, you could well be right, it makes no sense that 7caps would amount to 15 and 50mg lol. I cant get access to the full actual study.

 

[Sean1332]

I can't find that 2010 study in my library but I'm looking at a meta done in 2020 that includes the Panminerva studies. They don't include the dosages of the 2010 study you posted but the same authors (Belcaro) used 150mg of pycnogenol in a 2013 study. Dosages of the studies they reviewed were between 60-200mg and looks like 150-200mg was the most common dose.

They didn't include any data on coQ10 though but it sounds like the 7 caps was the deal in that one study.

 

[Nac]

^yeah those doses sound like what I'd come across previously.