Unanswered NAC hinders muscle growth
- Thread starter Stanfoo
- Start date
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
But enough to loose muscle I don’t think it would especially if also take betaine which increases igf1.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
But enough to loose muscle I don’t think it would especially if also take betaine which increases igf1.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
But not enough to loose muscle I don’t think it would especially if also take betaine which increases igf1.
Jeremyk1
Well-known member
Definitely won’t make you lose muscle. Just decrease effects of training.
Jeremyk1
Well-known member
Definitely won’t make you lose muscle. Just decrease effects of training.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
Which is why I’m guessing pro jym has betaine to combat that .
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
Which is why I’m guessing pro jym has betaine to combat that .
Jeremyk1
Well-known member
I’ve seen this talked about a bit before, I read up on it years ago. These days, I’m a little foggy on details. I really need to keep notes or something.
Anyway, the concept is pretty simple. Workouts damage muscle cells, causing a signal for your body to repair, when the body repairs the muscle, it also makes them bigger and stronger. Glutathione will actually help maintain the integrity of cells. Basically, you reduce the damage done, and reduce the response of the body to grow the muscles.
Based on what I remember from my research, supplementing NAC would best be avoided during most regular training, unless you have a need for it of course. Near a contest or event or whatever, it would actually be extremely useful, possibly helping to repair muscle and making sure it’s functioning properly, but also decreasing damage which will likely be done from the maximum effort one puts into competing. Also, I think NAC can help endurance. I forget about that though.
Honestly, I doubt the total effect would even be noticeable to most people, but if one is looking to maximize every aspect of training, that’s how I would do it.
Anyway, the concept is pretty simple. Workouts damage muscle cells, causing a signal for your body to repair, when the body repairs the muscle, it also makes them bigger and stronger. Glutathione will actually help maintain the integrity of cells. Basically, you reduce the damage done, and reduce the response of the body to grow the muscles.
Based on what I remember from my research, supplementing NAC would best be avoided during most regular training, unless you have a need for it of course. Near a contest or event or whatever, it would actually be extremely useful, possibly helping to repair muscle and making sure it’s functioning properly, but also decreasing damage which will likely be done from the maximum effort one puts into competing. Also, I think NAC can help endurance. I forget about that though.
Honestly, I doubt the total effect would even be noticeable to most people, but if one is looking to maximize every aspect of training, that’s how I would do it.
Jeremyk1
Well-known member
I’ve seen this talked about a bit before, I read up on it years ago. These days, I’m a little foggy on details. I really need to keep notes or something.
Anyway, the concept is pretty simple. Workouts damage muscle cells, causing a signal for your body to repair, when the body repairs the muscle, it also makes them bigger and stronger. Glutathione will actually help maintain the integrity of cells. Basically, you reduce the damage done, and reduce the response of the body to grow the muscles.
Based on what I remember from my research, supplementing NAC would best be avoided during most regular training, unless you have a need for it of course. Near a contest or event or whatever, it would actually be extremely useful, possibly helping to repair muscle and making sure it’s functioning properly, but also decreasing damage which will likely be done from the maximum effort one puts into competing. Also, I think NAC can help endurance. I forget about that though.
Honestly, I doubt the total effect would even be noticeable to most people, but if one is looking to maximize every aspect of training, that’s how I would do it.
Anyway, the concept is pretty simple. Workouts damage muscle cells, causing a signal for your body to repair, when the body repairs the muscle, it also makes them bigger and stronger. Glutathione will actually help maintain the integrity of cells. Basically, you reduce the damage done, and reduce the response of the body to grow the muscles.
Based on what I remember from my research, supplementing NAC would best be avoided during most regular training, unless you have a need for it of course. Near a contest or event or whatever, it would actually be extremely useful, possibly helping to repair muscle and making sure it’s functioning properly, but also decreasing damage which will likely be done from the maximum effort one puts into competing. Also, I think NAC can help endurance. I forget about that though.
Honestly, I doubt the total effect would even be noticeable to most people, but if one is looking to maximize every aspect of training, that’s how I would do it.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
I heard somewhere (maybe 3-4 times) that maybe betaine will combat NAC doing this? I can't remember where it was though...short memory....
Sorry...I'm just being a jerk and poking fun. My guess is that NAC will hinder your gains about as much as Methionine (or betaine, or....) will improve them.
Further, I think it is more complicated than turn on this switch and grow muscles, turn off this switch and lose them. There are a serious of signals, switches, hoops, etc. And maybe your body doesn't grow as much muscle in some instances because it doesn't need to - it can adapt to the stress in a more appropriate and healthy way than just building more tissue.
There is evidence that NAC can help combat sarcopenia in the elderly, which puts it in a category potentially with HMB. And these are just a couple studies that a quick google search can bring up:
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Not smoking guns, and they don't prove the main study to be "wrong" - like I said, it's more complicated.
Sorry...I'm just being a jerk and poking fun. My guess is that NAC will hinder your gains about as much as Methionine (or betaine, or....) will improve them.
Further, I think it is more complicated than turn on this switch and grow muscles, turn off this switch and lose them. There are a serious of signals, switches, hoops, etc. And maybe your body doesn't grow as much muscle in some instances because it doesn't need to - it can adapt to the stress in a more appropriate and healthy way than just building more tissue.
There is evidence that NAC can help combat sarcopenia in the elderly, which puts it in a category potentially with HMB. And these are just a couple studies that a quick google search can bring up:
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Not smoking guns, and they don't prove the main study to be "wrong" - like I said, it's more complicated.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
So you think hmb is crap. I love hmb . I feel less sore .
Powercage
Board Sponsor
NAC also potentially increases DOMS. I dont see a particularly compelling reason to take it regularly (outside of when you are under intense liver assault). It shouldn’t be a staple imo.
Daily supplementation with 1 g of oral NAC for six days produced no adverse side effects, reduced muscle soreness after one bout of damaging exercise, but increased soreness following the second bout.
Invalid Link Removed
Daily supplementation with 1 g of oral NAC for six days produced no adverse side effects, reduced muscle soreness after one bout of damaging exercise, but increased soreness following the second bout.
Invalid Link Removed
Powercage
Board Sponsor
It’s crap. You are either experiencing placebo or you are really low in your daily protein intake.
When you ignore the outlier studies by researchers that are known for ridiculous studies, it isn’t shown to be overly beneficial. It doesn’t perform better than free form Leucine, that’s why researchers that are trying to find positives for it don’t use a Leucine control.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
Muscle soreness following the first and last sessions was not different between groups. We conclude that neither HMB-Ca nor HMB-FA improved hypertrophy or reduced muscle damage in resistance-trained men undergoing resistance training ingesting optimal amounts of protein.
-
Invalid Link Removed
————-
No leucine metabolite resulted in any ergogenic effects on any outcome variable. Supplementation with leucine metabolites-α-HICA, HMB-FA, or HMB-Ca-is not a supplementation strategy that improves muscle growth and strength development in young adult men.
-
Invalid Link Removed
—————
Supplementation with HMB (FA and Ca) or α-HICA failed to enhance body composition to a greater extent than placebo. We do not recommend these leucine metabolites for improving body composition changes with resistance training in young adult resistance trained men.
-
Invalid Link Removed
—————-
Using the same undulating periodized program as Wilson & Lowery and Kraemer and similarly trained subjects... we see nothing even close to what they observed! no effect of HMB!
.
HMB added to whey did not result in greater increases in any measure of muscle mass, strength, or hormonal concentration compared to leucine added to whey. Our results show that HMB is no more effective in stimulating RT-induced hypertrophy and strength gains than leucine.
.
Invalid Link Removed
I can go on, but you get the point.
-
Invalid Link Removed
————-
No leucine metabolite resulted in any ergogenic effects on any outcome variable. Supplementation with leucine metabolites-α-HICA, HMB-FA, or HMB-Ca-is not a supplementation strategy that improves muscle growth and strength development in young adult men.
-
Invalid Link Removed
—————
Supplementation with HMB (FA and Ca) or α-HICA failed to enhance body composition to a greater extent than placebo. We do not recommend these leucine metabolites for improving body composition changes with resistance training in young adult resistance trained men.
-
Invalid Link Removed
—————-
Using the same undulating periodized program as Wilson & Lowery and Kraemer and similarly trained subjects... we see nothing even close to what they observed! no effect of HMB!
.
HMB added to whey did not result in greater increases in any measure of muscle mass, strength, or hormonal concentration compared to leucine added to whey. Our results show that HMB is no more effective in stimulating RT-induced hypertrophy and strength gains than leucine.
.
Invalid Link Removed
I can go on, but you get the point.
Jeremyk1
Well-known member
I swear, every time you post, I like you a little bit more. So thorough.
Raw Dog
Active member
Only time I would disagree with this now is if treating poor mental health or if you suffer from OCD. I do truly believe that NAC helped me a lot when I was dealing with depression and I absolutely refused to use an SSRI.
Thank you for previously making me aware of how it could negatively impact my fitness goals. And thank you for being informative and continually educating the community, I really appreciate people like you.
Raw Dog
Active member
Yep despite the fact I probably won’t use it again it is definitely one of my favorite supps I’ve ever used.
Ot2000
Member
NAC should not be timed around a workout. But otherwise, it’s an ingredient anyone who exercises intensely should use. Let’s be real, bodybuilding itself is an assault on the liver. From the actual systemic response, the high protein intakes and of course, the use of “supplements” you’re best to use supplements that can actual have a systemic response that’s positive.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
Raised liver enzymes from the breakdown of muscle protein due to exercise is not the same as true liver assault, neither is protein intake (outside of already having liver disease), neither is the metabolism of nearly all OTC dietary supplements. Your liver can very readily handle these situations. That's what it's made for. Raised ALT/AST is not indicative of any sort of disease state or true assault from these conditions. Please don't suggest that we are stressing our livers from working out and eating protein.
It's very easy to fact check these claims (although you would have to take supplements on an individual basis, and if you are getting into PH's, sure take NAC). Invalid Link Removed
Like I said, there is no compelling benefit to high dose anti-oxidants for the average person. Eat your fruits and veggies instead and let your body do its thing.
That wouldn't make a difference.
Last edited:
Ot2000
Member
Who said anything about high dosing antioxidants? Taking 600mg of NAC isn’t high dosing antioxidants.
And the liver is capable of handling a normal exercise routine. But once again, people push it and you know this. The combination of the routine, high protein and lets be real, the continuous cycles that we all know many try is an assault on the liver. Like I said, it’s the whole combination.
Just read your edit.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
Your first two claims aren't based on anything empirical. The livers of triathletes, marathon runners and Crossfit Games athletes don't fail at an increased rate. I think we are okay as far as exercise goes.
I did say it would be good for people who take cycles.
Ot2000
Member
I didn’t make just two claims. Read my actual post. I said 3 things: the routine, the high protein and the “supplements “. You should have been able to figure out what the “supplements “ as it’s apparent I am referring to anabolics. The combined is too much stress on the liver. And taking NAC away from a workout is not going to have negating effects on exercise. But it will have enough positive effects. There are enough bunk supps out to not add one that many should use.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
sigh, that's why I said "the first two". The third issue is why I said way back in post #18 "unless you are under liver assault", and again in post #28 when I mentioned taking it with PH's, and again in post #30 when I mentioned cycling, and a multitude of other times I have said NAC would be good for those taking prohormones.. That was referring to alpha 17 methylated compounds, SARMS, other AAS or similar. Can we move on now?
Last edited:
Ot2000
Member
Hey man, you chose to reply to my comment saying something I didn’t say. I had moved on when I said I just read your edit.
I will defend the use of certain health related compounds. NAC is one of them but it should not be used around exercise.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
I agree, it is best not used near exercise.
Although its effects seem to be on the level of days, not hours.
Last edited:
Powercage
Board Sponsor
Because most formulators are your average gym guy
BlockBuilder
Well-known member
Yes lots stop taking all antioxidants that are amazing for your health because it may or may not SLIGHTLY hinder muscle growth. Lol I wish people could understand how ridiculous this sounds
Powercage
Board Sponsor
No one said to stop taking all anti-oxidants. What you are missing is that anti-oxidants are good in certain contexts, until they start hindering natural processes or act like pro-oxidants (or are flat out unnecessary). You are under the misconception that antioxidants are always beneficial. You can continue taking them if you want, but it is smarter to utilize them intelligently (such as OT and I were discussing).
There is no need to worry about fruits and veggies, but concentrated anti-oxidant intake (read: supplements) should be evaluated on a case by case basis. It is ultimately your money and your body, but realize this is being discussed with no ulterior motive of trying to sell you anything. In fact, some of us are trying to save you money and help you get the most out of your hard work in the gym.
Last edited:
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Yeah, um, you completely missed the point if this was in response to my comments....but no big deal...I get it.
I think it is funny how people want to believe "Supplement A" will have a huge impact on their gainz and "Supplement B" will squander it all away.
And labeling any compound as "it does this" is pretty naive, unless it is a man made drug engineered to do one thing alone. Labeling NAC as an antioxidant and leaving it at that is as foolish as labeling Vitamin D a vitamin for bones.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
And yeah - the internet is a hard way to communicate. It's easy to come across as being more aggressive than you are. I would agree - just OD'ing on anti-oxidants is at best a waste and in some cases possibly harmful. NAC is more than an anti-oxidant; and maybe it has some uses as a moderate-term staple, year round use isn't necessary. As mentioned, it has benefits beyond liver health - including mental health; but most people won't see a dramatic effect from it unless they have a specific need. I do think the ingredient is under rated in some regards though.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
Man made vs natural has no bearing on mechanisms in question. Both are ultimately chemicals that should be considered on a case by case basis. Both can have unwanted side effects.
For a healthy, natural lifter, the benefits appear to be modest (non-existent?) at best. With causative risk established in humans of impaired recovery at 48+ hours (replicated over multiple studies) and impaired redox capacity for over a week, we don't need to jam a square peg in a round hole just because we want to lighten our wallets.
Sure there are specific instances when NAC can be beneficial, we've discussed a couple.
Last edited:
_Endure_
Active member
I think it's splitting hairs worrying about something like this hindering muscle growth personally. So many other larger pieces to the puzzle to put time and effort into. NAC has it's uses and works great for some people but might not be for all. I am a big fan of anything that boosts glutathione and glutathione itself. I personally use it but not huge dosages and can tell a difference in my overall sense of well being, inflammation, sleep, and recovery help but as always YMMV.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
This is the exact reason we run studies. Placebo is powerful and we are all prone to it.
Some of your claims have potential mechanisms, but take recovery for example. Just like glutamine, HMB, and BCAAs before it, we know it doesnt help with that.
We have replicated, controlled studies on quantitative markers not only showing NAC does not improve recovery, it makes it worse. This is why personal experience should always be taken with a grain of salt, we are all subject to bias and error.
The "well it works differently for everyone" mantra is the exact mindset most supplement companies want you to have. It assures you keep buying product.
Last edited:
Stanfoo
Member
Lol @ ignorant NAC defenders like this guy, they just don't want to admit that they unknowingly limited their gains due to taking it, and are now trying to come up with excuses to justify their continuation of it. you can't argue with studies, you fucked your gains, deal with it.
djbombsquad
Board Sponsor
Pre jym has it .
aaronuconn
Well-known member
I like NAC pre-booze. Works quite well
Carnivorecon
Well-known member
Good to know, i will be trying NAC for this effect in the future, thank you
EMPIREMIND
Well-known member
You should take all antioxidants away from your workout. This will help ensure the acute effects of the workout aren’t interrupted, but you will still get the systemic benefits. These type of supplements are very helpful health wise, but just need to be used correctly. Also I have a feeling a lot of guys on here are using NAC as part of a cycle support, and in that case, still take it away from your workout, but it’s not going to have much if any impact on your muscle gain.
Powercage
Board Sponsor
It looks like you didn't read the thread, but to catch you up: keep in mind the effects could potentially be in the range of hours and days (redox reactions are impaired for up to 8 days), not minutes. So limiting NAC in general is likely wise for a healthy, natural person until we know otherwise. The multiple days of impaired recovery could certainly add up to impaired progress over time if you continue to regularly supplement with NAC. It would essentially negatively effect you to a greater extent the longer you take it.
The real question is, what do normally healthy people expect to gain from NAC? Why does a normal, healthy person need glutathione support for instance. Will that make any difference in overall health given an already healthy body?
Not sure where you are going with this. Just stop taking Pre Jym and you don't have to keep saying that
There isn't much (and by that I mean it's in its infancy and there isn't anything conclusive, but it's possible). Effects on anxiety and depression are is based on trichotillomania/OCD research. I am not certain how this would translate to someone with normally functioning brain chemistry.
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Last edited:
Powercage
Board Sponsor
So it wont mess with processes it’s been quantitatively shown to mess with in controlled settings, but you are sure it will help your skin and hair?
Logic checks out.