Mixing Testosterone-E and Deca for a subcutaneous injection?

Audiomaker

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Hi all, I'm new to the site and new to pinning these substances.

I hope I can get some information on this question.

First, my stat's...

I'm 5'10 245lbs stocky and 45 years old. I am looking to do mild bodybuilding (if there's such a thing), get leaner, and feel more youthful.

I have begun pinning Test-E @ 250mg/week. (125mg/Mon and Thurs) I will do this for 10 weeks (1 10ml bottle of 250mg/ml).

At that point, I will add 200mg of Deca/week (100mg/Mon and Thurs).

If there are not any issues, I will stay on the test/deca until I no longer wish to grow, then stay on Test-E indefinitely.

I currently have an 80week supply of test/deca at this rate. I will add HGH when I can afford it, but that might not be this year.

I have taken HGH alone for 6 months in the past using SubQ injections to my stomach fat.

****
Now my question...

My "advisors" (local long term body building friends) have instructed me to take the test' IM.
They have also suggested that I can mix the test' and the deca in the same tube and do IM pins.

I have been reading that SubQ Test-E injections are OK and might even have some benefits over IM'. There is a lot of discussion on the net about this.

For me, I think I would prefer SubQ injections into belly fat because of my experience injecting HGH in this way. I would at least like to try it since I plan to do this for a long time and I haven't enjoyed injecting IM to my quads and it is difficult for me to inject my glutes.

So this leads me to a few options and a few questions as far as injection...

1. Is it actually OK to mix test-e and deca in the same tube?

2. Would it be OK to pin mixed test-e and deca SubQ to body fat?

3. Would it be OK to pin test-e and deca separately SubQ to body fat?

Of course I know everyone is different, but I'm just looking for a baseline injection procedure that is convenient and works for long-term use, and I don't know what you can mix, or what is OK to pin to body fat.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'm trying to get a solid routine started.

All the Best
 
thyrod

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You can but that's a lot of oil for subQ. But you CAN.
 
bad rad

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^^^He said about the injection volume, just inject more often but only .5cc each time. I use SQ for my HRT but have used slin pins for thighs into the muscle also.
 

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Ok, well in my case you can forget about using insulin needles (i.e...31g 1ml slim). I broke a plunger just trying to draw and remove air. I was being careful and patient too, but you'd need some serious time to use these.

I switched to 3ml 25g and pinned .5ml test-e oil (dynasty) about 3/4" into body fat (spare tire). I have about a handful down there at this time.
The 25g rendered a nice speed... about 30 seconds and was completely painless.

I could feel the oil spread, it's not like it pocketed. I'd say to about a 3" diameter of spread that I could *feel*. Kind of a tingly feeling, no burn.
I would have no problem doing this to the other side in one session when I add the other .5ml 8 weeks from now.

I'll keep you guys updated for side's. So far, so good.

All the Best
 

dvr2470

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Hi all, I'm new to the site and new to pinning these substances.

I hope I can get some information on this question.

First, my stat's...

I'm 5'10 245lbs stocky and 45 years old. I am looking to do mild bodybuilding (if there's such a thing), get leaner, and feel more youthful.

I have begun pinning Test-E @ 250mg/week. (125mg/Mon and Thurs) I will do this for 10 weeks (1 10ml bottle of 250mg/ml).

At that point, I will add 200mg of Deca/week (100mg/Mon and Thurs).

If there are not any issues, I will stay on the test/deca until I no longer wish to grow, then stay on Test-E indefinitely.

I currently have an 80week supply of test/deca at this rate. I will add HGH when I can afford it, but that might not be this year.

I have taken HGH alone for 6 months in the past using SubQ injections to my stomach fat.

****
Now my question...

My "advisors" (local long term body building friends) have instructed me to take the test' IM.
They have also suggested that I can mix the test' and the deca in the same tube and do IM pins.

I have been reading that SubQ Test-E injections are OK and might even have some benefits over IM'. There is a lot of discussion on the net about this.

For me, I think I would prefer SubQ injections into belly fat because of my experience injecting HGH in this way. I would at least like to try it since I plan to do this for a long time and I haven't enjoyed injecting IM to my quads and it is difficult for me to inject my glutes.

So this leads me to a few options and a few questions as far as injection...

1. Is it actually OK to mix test-e and deca in the same tube?

2. Would it be OK to pin mixed test-e and deca SubQ to body fat?

3. Would it be OK to pin test-e and deca separately SubQ to body fat?

Of course I know everyone is different, but I'm just looking for a baseline injection procedure that is convenient and works for long-term use, and I don't know what you can mix, or what is OK to pin to body fat.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'm trying to get a solid routine started.

All the Best
It sounds like you are doing a self prescribed TRT. I suggest that you donate blood periodically to make sure that your red blood cell count stays in check.
 

Audiomaker

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It sounds like you are doing a self prescribed TRT. I suggest that you donate blood periodically to make sure that your red blood cell count stays in check.
Oh, I didn't think that was going to be a problem at these doses, but I'll definitely read up on it and see what kind of schedule I should consider for that. Thanks!
 

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I would pin IM. And I would use a 23g 1.5 inch for quads and glutes and 23g 1inch for delts and smaller muscles. Don't ever use a slin pin to inject oil based test! Better off running Test-E for 12 weeks 250mg o2 weekly E3D and Deca once a week for ten weeks, DBOL for weeks 1-4 for oral kickstart at 30mg a day,also I would take Aromasin 12.5 EOD, plus keep some caber on hand due to sides of Deca. and HCG o2 weekly day before test injection 250iu.
 

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With sub-q a lot of the esters will not be absorbed properly. There will be some benefit but a lot will be wasted IM is the way to go so the esters can do their job properly.
 
DetroitHammer

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With sub-q a lot of the esters will not be absorbed properly. There will be some benefit but a lot will be wasted IM is the way to go so the esters can do their job properly.
If you inject sub Q the release will be slower, but there is no possibility that you will not get the proper ester cleavage. Cleavage will take longer but may actually be more evenly dispersed in Sub Q. The disadvantage is the depot will be closer to the skin, more lumpy and could leak out if you inject a lot of oil, like 3mL or more. Even in IM I have serious doubts about how esters actually work.
 
thyrod

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^^ dh have you tried this? Asking just because you've pretty much tried everything + had proof of it through self experiment.
 
DetroitHammer

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^^ dh have you tried this? Asking just because you've pretty much tried everything + had proof of it through self experiment.
Yes, I actually do it often if I'm blasting. Typically I'll do daily shots of suspension that way and it works fine. At first I was skeptical but so many doctors recommended it I thought I'd try it. I never baselined blood levels comparing IM vs Sub Q, but test levels don't seem to be reduced when blasting on sub Q injections of test.
 

Goose8

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Yes, I actually do it often if I'm blasting. Typically I'll do daily shots of suspension that way and it works fine. At first I was skeptical but so many doctors recommended it I thought I'd try it. I never baselined blood levels comparing IM vs Sub Q, but test levels don't seem to be reduced when blasting on sub Q injections of test.
I have been on 125mg/2 x week of test cyp for TRT and have been wanting to switch to Sub-Q after reading up on it, and i watched a youtube video of Dr Chyser (sp?) who is supposed to a leading TRT/HRT specialist, and after watching a few of his videos, he seems to know his stuff. He said that the Sub-Q actually lowers estrogenic sides, and many of his patients are able to come off their AI.

After reading some users experiences with it, especially Hammers, I did my first sub-q pin today. My plan is to pin 75mg of test cyp EOD which will put me arond 300mg/week, depending on the week. Ive read where some people say they dont feel it when they pin SQ, but i did. the onset was little delayed though. My first DR put me on 100mg/wk of test C and wasnt concerned about E2, said thats just part of it, then i saw another specialist and when he ran labs, my E2 was 63, and so he put me on 1mg of Arimidex EOD, im supposed to go back in few week and get new labs, so that will tell me how the sq is doing and im anxious to see where my e2 is at, hope i can afford to keep going to this DR.....
 
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DetroitHammer

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I've met with Dr Crisler before. Back in the 80's he was into everything he could get his hands on and was jacked up huge. So he knows what it's like to be on a cycle. He doesn't believe in that anymore and tries to keep strict TRT protocol on his patients. I follow his advice on HCG because it makes all the sense in the world. I'd be interested in hearing his rationale for saying sub-Q will cut down on aromatization. For a layman like myself, it doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that the slower release will slow down the surge of aromatization, but the volume of conversion should be the same, just not so rapid. But I'm guessing.

I have been on 125mg/2 x week of test cyp for TRT and have been wanting to switch to Sub-Q after reading up on it, and i watched a youtube video of Dr Chyser (sp?) who is supposed to a leading TRT/HRT specialist, and after watching a few of his videos, he seems to know his stuff. He said that the Sub-Q actually lowers estrogenic sides, and many of his patients are able to come off their AI.

After reading some users experiences with it, especially Hammers, I did my first sub-q pin today. My plan is to pin 75mg of test cyp EOD which will put me arond 300mg/week, depending on the week. Ive read where some people say they dont feel it when they pin SQ, but i did. the onset was little delayed though. My first DR put me on 100mg/wk of test C and wasnt concerned about E2, said thats just part of it, then i saw another specialist and when he ran labs, my E2 was 63, and so he put me on 1mg of Arimidex EOD, im supposed to go back in few week and get new labs, so that will tell me how the sq is doing and im anxious to see where my e2 is at, hope i can afford to keep going to this DR.....
 

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I'm 3 pins into SQ now. Not a lot of time for feedback yet. As stated, I'm doing Test-E 2X/week @ 125mg per pin.

Prior to this I was doing 250mg 1X/week IM (only did this twice).

I have to say that if it's possible, I did feel a crash coming off the higher dose of IM to the first lower dose of SQ. I guess this is because the SQ was taking longer to get into my system, therefore taking several depots working together to get the same release. Then again, it could have been the flu (which I didn't get).

Now on my 3rd pin of SQ, I'm feeling about the same as on my 2nd pin of IM

Of the 3 pins, one case created a lump, while the other two (the first two) did not.

This might seem crazy, but I'm thinking that this was due to my needle control, which was the best by 3rd time (which created the lump).
Put another way, I think on the first two pins I was "hunting" a bit while injecting, and this dispersed the test' to different areas instead of keeping it all in a single pocket.

Of course I'm not going to recommend this to anyone, but on my next pin I might intentionally move the needle (by withdrawing it a bit, then taking a slightly different angle and re-inserting) to see if this avoids the pocket. Over time I might have some more evidence to provide the group on this improper technique. Being fat (by bodybuilder's standards), I'm not really worrying about damaging my fat cells...screw em'.

Again, I"m going about .5" to .75" in to belly fat using a 3ml/25g, and I'm lightly pinching the fat to get a nice target and stay away from my abdomen muscles.

Seems OK so far and I'm not limping from the IM's.

I did on one try have pain on insertion right at the beginning (.25" about) so I withdrew, moved about a half an inch over and had no pain, so I'm thinking there are some nerves that can be touched at least in the belly fat area.

The final thing I'd like to note....without any real evidence... is that I seem to be losing fat faster in the area that I'm injecting than in other parts of my body. That could be my imagination, but normally for me I *gain* weight in the belly first when losing it in other areas as my body seems to move its stores there. My mad scientist theory on this (and I am one), is that the oil is suffocating some of the fat cells in the area by coating them. I'll keep you updated on this as well.

Peace

Edited to add:
Due to diet and exercise + test-e, in 3 weeks I'm down 15lbs and building muscle.
I am ridiculously horny all the time, which my bodybuilding friends just laugh at, but i have to admit I'm a little concerned if this is an indicator of my levels of "something" being off. Hmmm
 

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I've met with Dr Crisler before. Back in the 80's he was into everything he could get his hands on and was jacked up huge. So he knows what it's like to be on a cycle. He doesn't believe in that anymore and tries to keep strict TRT protocol on his patients. I follow his advice on HCG because it makes all the sense in the world. I'd be interested in hearing his rationale for saying sub-Q will cut down on aromatization. For a layman like myself, it doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that the slower release will slow down the surge of aromatization, but the volume of conversion should be the same, just not so rapid. But I'm guessing.
I tried to post the link to the video's but i dont have enough posts to post a link. If you go to youtube and search subcutaneous testosterone injections it will pull up his video on SQ injections. He said he uses SQ on himself, gives himself a shot in the vid, and he is still pretty ripped in the vid. He has several video on youtube, and one he is giving a lecture at a TRT/HRT seminar, and he goes into great detail about all the male hormones, and how they effect eachother, and proper testing protocol for labs. He knows his stuff. Another thing that caught my attention, he say that has never, and never ever prescribe propecia/proscar for MPB. He said he has had so many patients come to him for help after taking it, they have depression, lack of energy, ect and that even upon stopping it the symptoms never go away, even resetting their system hasnt helped, and that an alarming number of patients have committed suicide after taking it, and it screwing them up.
 

Goose8

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Dr Crisler said that pinching that fat while pinning SQ increases pressure within fat cells, and that increases trauma of the cells.
 

Audiomaker

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Dr Crisler said that pinching that fat while pinning SQ increases pressure within fat cells, and that increases trauma of the cells.
Makes sense, but to what end? If it doesn't hurt, what loss is some trauma to fat cells?

People pay a lot of money to intentionally cause fat cell trauma.

I'm not arguing the point, but I wonder what the downside of that might be?
 

Audiomaker

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Makes sense, but to what end? If it doesn't hurt, what loss is some trauma to fat cells?

People pay a lot of money to intentionally cause fat cell trauma.

I'm not arguing the point, but I wonder what the downside of that might be?
Quoting myself here above...

Ok, I tracked down the YouTube video of Dr.Chrisler doing SubQ injections and all I have to say is...wow!

While I found the reasons why pinching the fat is less than optimal, more importantly I found a video that will make my girlfriend instantly STFU about me taking test' injections! This guy looks better than I have ever looked....and I've looked pretty good at times.

I have a new hero.

Thanks for the info' :)
 

Goose8

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I've met with Dr Crisler before. Back in the 80's he was into everything he could get his hands on and was jacked up huge. So he knows what it's like to be on a cycle. He doesn't believe in that anymore and tries to keep strict TRT protocol on his patients. I follow his advice on HCG because it makes all the sense in the world. I'd be interested in hearing his rationale for saying sub-Q will cut down on aromatization. For a layman like myself, it doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that the slower release will slow down the surge of aromatization, but the volume of conversion should be the same, just not so rapid. But I'm guessing.
Im PM'd you the link.
 

Goose8

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I just did my SQ injection with a 26G/3/4" pin in my lower abdomen, and when i pulled it out there was a significant drop of blood, i put pressure on it for a sec and it was good to go. My previous times i havd SQ's there was only a very tiny spec of blood, and even when i IM with a 24G 1 1/4 pin it usually only has a spec of blood. im about 18% BF, so it shouldnt have hit my abs, but dont of any other reason a SQ would produce blood....
 

Audiomaker

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I just did my SQ injection with a 26G/3/4" pin in my lower abdomen, and when i pulled it out there was a significant drop of blood, i put pressure on it for a sec and it was good to go. My previous times i havd SQ's there was only a very tiny spec of blood, and even when i IM with a 24G 1 1/4 pin it usually only has a spec of blood. im about 18% BF, so it shouldnt have hit my abs, but dont of any other reason a SQ would produce blood....
Well I'm no doctor, but as far as I know, just because there isn't a vein or artery doesn't mean there's no blood in there.

Even fat cells are surrounded by blood right? That's how they get nourished.
 

Goose8

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I've met with Dr Crisler before. Back in the 80's he was into everything he could get his hands on and was jacked up huge. So he knows what it's like to be on a cycle. He doesn't believe in that anymore and tries to keep strict TRT protocol on his patients. I follow his advice on HCG because it makes all the sense in the world. I'd be interested in hearing his rationale for saying sub-Q will cut down on aromatization. For a layman like myself, it doesn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is that the slower release will slow down the surge of aromatization, but the volume of conversion should be the same, just not so rapid. But I'm guessing.
DH, ive been studying all i could on SQ test adimistration the past two days. I could be wrong here, after reading up on it, i think the reason for the decreased aromatization via SQ is because you have smaller but more frequent injections, as opposed to large/huge injection of test sitting in the muscle, therefor the aromatization is not nearly as high, and i would guess having more stable test levels couldnt couldnt hurt the decreased aromatization either...... The one question i still cannot figure out, if SQ adiministration is so great, you dont have to poke holes in your muscles weekly, your levels are more stable, and even decreased aromatization, then why arent more people using this route, and why isnt there more info on it?
 

Audiomaker

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DH, ive been studying all i could on SQ test adimistration the past two days. I could be wrong here, after reading up on it, i think the reason for the decreased aromatization via SQ is because you have smaller but more frequent injections, as opposed to large/huge injection of test sitting in the muscle, therefor the aromatization is not nearly as high, and i would guess having more stable test levels couldnt couldnt hurt the decreased aromatization either...... The one question i still cannot figure out, if SQ adiministration is so great, you dont have to poke holes in your muscles weekly, your levels are more stable, and even decreased aromatization, then why arent more people using this route, and why isnt there more info on it?
I've been looking around for info too. I believe I read it had something to do with compounds and the syringes used many years ago that worked better IM and that the directions for injection had been somewhat "grandfathered in" by the drug labs and doctors.

Don't quote me though, I'm super new to this.
 
abs322

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IM injects for test/aas: 23g 1.5" for glutes, 25g 1" for delts & outer quads (vastus lateralis)
sub-q for peptides / hcg
 
DetroitHammer

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IM injects for test/aas: 23g 1.5" for glutes, 25g 1" for delts & outer quads (vastus lateralis)
sub-q for peptides / hcg
Unless you're full of scar tissue. I always pin with a 20ga and love it. Haven't used a 23ga in about 18 months.
 
abs322

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hell why dont u just go ahead and use the old preloadeded sust 250 darts from mexico lol theyre a real pain in the arse!!
 
DetroitHammer

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hell why dont u just go ahead and use the old preloadeded sust 250 darts from mexico lol theyre a real pain in the arse!!
Ha!... I wouldn't touch Sustanon if it were the only AAS left on earth... probably.
 
OnionKnight

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Quoting myself here above...

Ok, I tracked down the YouTube video of Dr.Chrisler doing SubQ injections and all I have to say is...wow!

While I found the reasons why pinching the fat is less than optimal, more importantly I found a video that will make my girlfriend instantly STFU about me taking test' injections! This guy looks better than I have ever looked....and I've looked pretty good at times.

I have a new hero.

Thanks for the info' :)
can you send me a link to that video? i want my gf to stfu about steroids too
 

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Sorry for not getting back to this post, but I'm not getting email notifications of thread updates.

Well alot of discussion on SQ test injections, and I did get 1 "yay" on mixing test and deca, but I was really wondering if about what happens when pinning Deca (mixed with test) SQ.

The whole SQ thing is getting a lot of talk, but I don't see many people discussing pinning Deca...or EQ...or other oil based injectables SQ.

All the Best
 
abs322

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from the UGII :

Steroids are designed to be injected into the muscle so that the drug will dissipate from
the injection site at a timed, determined rate. If you inject an oil based steroid into a slab
of fat, it will take longer (sometimes months) to dissipate from the injection site.
 
abs322

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Ha!... I wouldn't touch Sustanon if it were the only AAS left on earth... probably.

just frontload and go every 3rd day, levels should be stable. once the esters are removed test is test.... i would use legit organon sus over any UG
 
grega60438

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I am another person succesfully doing TRT Sub-Q method and personally I like 25G.

Before switching to Sub-Q I researched much and in summary found:
1. Sub-Q is NOT recommended for short esters or no ester.
2. Sub-Q is recommended for long esters like C or E, with actual medical tests to prove it.



According to convention if we inject oil-based anabolic steroids into the fat layer beneath the skin and above the muscle (subcutaneous) it will impair absorption and could delay dissapation of drugs for many weeks or months. New research conducted at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Canada at the endocrine clinic tested the viability of subcutaneous shots.

The study involved 22 patients who were using the clinic for testosterone replacement therapy. The anabolic steroid used was testosterone enanthate. The subjects were instructed to self-administer their testosterone subcutaneously once per week. The same 1ml that would have been injected once every 2 weeks was divided up into .5ml weekly injections. Blood tests which were conducted periodically throughout the 1 year investigation were suprisingly and unquestionably consistent. For exactly 100% of patients enrolled, testosterone levels remained in the physiological (normal) range for the entire duration of the study. This included both peak and trough levels (high & low during each week). Furthermore injections were extremely well tolerated. Each patient took over 50 injections and not one single adverse reactionn was noticed at the injection site.

The investigation concluded that not only was subcutaneous testosterone enanthate a viable option as far as drug release , but it was safe, cheap and far more comfortable for their patients compared to intramuscular injections.
Saudi Med J, 2006 Dec;27(12):1843-6 courtesty of W. Llewellyn


ANOTHER:


STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED
WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE
INJECTIONS
M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang
Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,
Hamilton, ON, Canada
Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement
has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide
variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous
(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,
its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated
the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using
SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and
September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving
10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.
Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for
41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with
testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL
200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior
abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated
to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.
Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration
is not officially approved by Health Canada. T
levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection
during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection
in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels
were measured however; the week 12 data are still being
collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T
was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit
0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During
the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in
pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l
(p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T
(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1
(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with
no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection
of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and
stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers
fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of
medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term
clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further
evaluation.
 
grega60438

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Although Sub-Q is well know in the TRT area, perhaps the reason some body builders are not as aware is because the goals many times are different?
i.e. On TRT extra time to achieve smooth and stable typically is not an issue. Where as some body builders want to get in and out quick, even at the expense of some stability, and can sometimes compensate, such as using an AI. Not putting down either method, just high-lighting some outside of the box thoughts.
 
abs322

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and where is one going to dissipate a bodybuilding regiment of up to 6+ ml/wk of gear & oil sq for 10-12 wks?
 
grega60438

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Good point! TRT typically pins about 1ml and a typical body builder cycle pins much more. 1g of test can be 5ml and that is just the base.
 
GLHF

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My "advisors" (local long term body building friends) have instructed me to take the test' IM.
They have also suggested that I can mix the test' and the deca in the same tube and do IM pins.


yea just do that
 
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