**** Methyl 1-test!

judge-mental said:
so. Doc D - just a recap question
"Keep nolva on hand" is now "Keep nolva and bromo/cabergoline/pergolide at hand" when dealing with prog AAS like Deca, Tren (possibly mohn, 19-nor, m1t)?

I've never used it, only perg (which is super strong too), but it's not marketed as an anti-park. It's labeled specifically to lower prolactin levels, and the high potency and long t1/2 are a big bonus. I keep perg on hand, only really needed it once, I was doing PCT with LongJack100 of all things. I am thinking MOHN may actually be anti-prog, even though it's a methylated nor.
 
They do use it for Parkinson's, and certain forms of male perf. enhancement, but it's also a good pituitary poison. That means that it turns off secretion of LH, FSH, Prolactin, etc. Combine that with some nolva and you have a good no lacto combo. There is a lot of good info distributed over a variety of theads on this board if you try a seaarch here. And even though they would be bad to use during PCT, dopaminergics do promote GH release to varying degrees.
Apologies, but I have to seriously disagree with the vast majority of what you're saying:

alter dopaminergic tone in the brain (particularly via D2) or prolactin, and they produce a similar signaling cascade to the hypothalamus which inhibits the release of GnRH (gonadotrophin releasing hormone). So for starters, dopamine doesn't directly affect the pituary in terms of endocrine activity, hence the idea of DA-agonists as "pituary poison" is ludicrous (laughable at best). It's the hypothalamus that interacts with the pituary in response to alterations in dopamine signaling &/or prolactin on an indirect level.

Okay, so DA+ --) picked up by the hypothalamus --) inhibits GnRH release in the pituary.

From there, as we know, GnRH causes pituary stimulation that resuls in the release of LH and FSH. LH binds to Leydig cells in the testes, where tesosterone and estrodiol are synthesized as a response.

So I can see where he's going astray: it looks like "take dopaminergic --) inhibit GnRH release --) inhibit LH release --) lower testosterone."

Problem is that it's more complicated than that, because despite the fact that DA stimulation causes a relay that prompts a direct reduction in GnRH release, this SAME STIMULATION also kills prolactin levels, and there is invariably an inverse relationship between prolactin and testosterone. So it ends up looking a little something like this:

DA + = less prolactin --) overturns its own inhibitory effects on GnRH --) a net gain in 'downstream' testosterone synthesis. This is the accepted human model (1).

As long as your are dosing your dopaminergic in the morning to coincide with your body's natural basal dopamine and prolacin rhythms, the drug (bromocripine or even pergolide) will act in a stimulatory fashion. It is a mistake however, to dose outside of this rhythm, either via multiple daily dosings or by using longer-acting dopaminergics.

This is just from a hormonal/endocrine standpoint: it is also prudent from a neural and psychological angle.


1. Nakagawa K et. al. Relationship of changes in serum concentrations of prolactin and testosterone during dopaminergic modulation in males. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1982 17:345-52.
 
I should also add that the above-advocated single morning dose is in regards to non-medical 'illicit' usage; if you actually suffered from PD it would be a far different story.
 
Lowki said:
Apologies, but I have to seriously disagree with the vast majority of what you're saying:

alter dopaminergic tone in the brain (particularly via D2) or prolactin, and they produce a similar signaling cascade to the hypothalamus which inhibits the release of GnRH (gonadotrophin releasing hormone). So for starters, dopamine doesn't directly affect the pituary in terms of endocrine activity, hence the idea of DA-agonists as "pituary poison" is ludicrous (laughable at best). It's the hypothalamus that interacts with the pituary in response to alterations in dopamine signaling &/or prolactin on an indirect level.

Alright that's fine. But is it your hypothalamus that secretes LH or prolactin? I never said that dopamine had a direct endocrine effect on the pituitary. Nevertheless, DA-agonists are still pituitary poison in that it is the target gland affected. The hypothalamus excerts control over pituitary secretion. In turn, the thalamus and cortex excert control over hypothalamic factors. The pituitary is still the target and the bottom line. So if you feel the need to strongly disagree with most of what I say, that's OK. Maybe I just didn't say it in a way that you could understand, but I've studied these mechanisms since you were in diapers, so if you want to be trivial and belligerent, I can make you feel stupid very quickly, no doubt. Don't try to complicate the issue or confuse people. I'm trying to tell them what they need to know in a way that they can understand.
 
"Merely amassing knowledge does not make one knowledgeable."

Or, more to the point, I would love to see you prove any of the following:

1. That proper, reasonable dopaminergic modulation that coincides with the body's natural prolactin rhythm is hormonally detrimental in any way, shape, or form.

2. That any correlation exists between age and the ability to factually synthesize research data into practical, real-world counseling.

I'll be patiently awaiting your response.
 
No need for patience, it has less to do will reading and more to do with living. Go ahead and take 5mg bromo every morning for the next 6 months. You think I haven't learned much of this the hard way? That's all the proof you'll need fella. I've seen people take bromo too long, and now they don't have functional ovaries. So yeah, that's great, you can do it intentionally if you have testicular cancer, but you really need to get some more experience to back-up your research. 6 months from now, we can debate it again and we'll see what your new opinion is on it. Guys like you are just misguided and your rational is based on pride. I'm trying to educate people and all you want to do is argue about how small your dick is? It's not about all that, so just some friendly advise: develope an appetite for the truth, because vain motives are detrimental and your conclusions are uncertain.
 
I have used pergolide mesylate for four months straight. It got me down to 5% bodyfat.

I used bromocriptine continuously for two entire years.

I have had blood and endocrine work since then, and my **** is running smoothly; I do not mean to be crude, but feel free to ask my girl about the state of my package &/or libido. And as much as I'm sure you'd like to attribute my comments to some ergot-induced psychiatric episode, sorry to tell you bud, the noggin's wired pretty tight.

I have written and researched dopaminergics for years, for use in everything from body composition/anti-starvation modulation to neuroprotection, to trying to aide several of my friends with cocaine dependency.

None of us are mice or hampsters, and much of what I see you posting is unfounded extrapolation from animal studies. You are naively trying to proposition information like it is backed by some overwhelming scientific consensus. Bullshit. Oskeno et al. means **** all in my book; pony up some relevant studies, here I'll even give you some:


1. Lackritz, RM and A. Bartke. The effect of prolactin on androgen response to human chorionic gonadotropin in normal men. Fertil Steril (1980) 34: 140-143.
2. Coiro V. et. al. Restoration of normal gonadotropin responses to naloxone by chronic bromocriptine treatment in elderly men. Horm Res (1991) 36: 36-40.

3. Martikainen H. and R. Vihko. hCG-stimulaton of testicular steroidogenesis during induced hyper- and hypoprolactinemia in man. Clinical Endocrinology (1982) 16: 227-234.

4. Oseko F. et. al. Bromocriptine effects on plasma leutinizing hormone and its responses to gonadotropin-releasing hormone in normal men. Life Sciences (1993) 52: 1805-1807.

Check please...
 
Loki, you don't have to take my word for it or try to equate any animal research to humans about Permax, get a fucking PDR and read what the drugs own manufacturer admits about it's endocrine effects in humans. The first paragraph of Clinical Pharmacology:

"Pergolide mysylate inhibits the secretion of prolactin in humans; it causes a transient rise in serum concentrations of growth hormone and a decrease in serum concentrations of luteinizing hormone."

Dude, I used to experiment with drugs too, so I can understand, but you really need to think about this. Try clonidine or effexor for the coke problem, but leave this **** alone. You've been on ergot derivatives for years now?! I've taken a lot of weird drugs but I'm not even that crazy. You don't wanna use this kind of stuff too young or long term unless it is required. Don't you have chronic hallucinations? What kind of doses are you on?? Doesn't the tinnitus get to you, or the nausea, or the constant need from nasal decongestants? Maybe you are willing to put up with it, but I just don't like the sides or the long term risks. I'm 'lokki' enough as it is without cutting my BF to 5% on D2's.
 
Dr. D in this thread

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Bioman mentions a drug called Letro. Is that a trade name for one of the drugs listed above in this thread? Thanks
 
I would like to know more about this Letro as well. I have the same puffy nipple problem that i have been trying to get rid of. Nolva , bromo and vitex has did nothing so far.
 
goldylight said:
I have always read that you should take 1-2 grams of vitex per day. I know when i take 1 gram i shoot huge loads :D
that sounds interesting. could you explain to me what exactly this compound is, and what it does. ive tried searching around the site and i havent found much on it. also, i'm coming off of a m14 and mdht cycle in about a week. would this be useful post cycle? the volume of my load has went down a lot over the past five weeeks and this would be great if it helps. any input would be appreciated.
 
ive been taking vitex because of my puffy nipples and i see no dif in the size of my load. could someone tell me if yohimburn or lipoderm would help get rid of puffy nipples?
 
Yohimbe is an alpha sympathetic, good for fixing ejaculatory failure due to SSRI use and good for fat burning. No direct endocrine benefits for the nips though.
 
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