MassFX Blood Tests?

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i'm not argueing.....

And I am not trying to sugar coat anything. If PP's intentions are true, then that is fine and I welcome them. I was stating that if they weren't true, then he should leave his comments "at the door!"

Also, he stated himself that he would not be buying and that AX has a good marketing plan. So if he doesn't like AX or its current offering of products, then a negative bias towards the products can be just as hurtful as a positive bias.

Plus, people asked for logs, we gave them.
People asked for bloodwork, 1 person got one and we posted it.

Now those logs and that blood analysis is not good enough. Will anything EVER be good enough? Granted it is only one out of many testers. None of the other testers had bloodwork done before or after. Nothing we can do about it at the moment.

If a log can be fudged, why can't blood numbers be fudged? If you believe that the logs are biased and people put untrue results in, why wouldn't those same people put untrue blood numbers in? Because in the end, you said they are biased.

I am not critcizing you or PP. You both have stated your opinions and i am stating mine. I would like to have you both as customers but i am just as happy if you don't like our products. I am not going to lose sleep if you don't buy the product. I am not going to fret if you criticize our methods or products. But I wish you the best luck with your goals and the products you choose to help you meet those goals.

AND I TOTALLY AGREE THAT WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS OPENLY AND AM IS GREAT BECAUSE THEY LET THEM TAKE PLACE!
 
macedaddy said:
Plus, people asked for logs, we gave them.
People asked for bloodwork, 1 person got one and we posted it.

Now those logs and that blood analysis is not good enough. Will anything EVER be good enough? Granted it is only one out of many testers. None of the other testers had bloodwork done before or after. Nothing we can do about it at the moment.

If a log can be fudged, why can't blood numbers be fudged? If you believe that the logs are biased and people put untrue results in, why wouldn't those same people put untrue blood numbers in? Because in the end, you said they are biased.
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Bloodwork can be simply made up if someone is going to outright lie. But it's difficult to "fudge", as a scan of the original bloodwork can be easily posted. But usually when logs "lie" it is not because the logger is outright lying. There are just too many other factors and biases that play into the results: diet, previous experience, other supplements, placebo effect, etc. "Awesome workouts" and "huge pumps" don't prove anything... these are all in the mind. Nor do small gains of a few pounds, as these could easily be fat or water weight or natural gains.

MassFX is supposed to boost testosterone and free test. This is an incredibly easy effect to test. Simply get pre- and post- bloodwork for 4 or 5 testers, and that would demonstrate to most people's satisfaction that MassFX really works. As of yet, only one person got bloodwork, and there wasn't any baseline bloodwork, which means that the results are worthless. So basically, no, you are wrong, there is no bloodwork at all. That is not good enough for anybody who actually wants to see proof that something works.

I'm not bashing AX, as they have a history of releasing decent products. But without bloodwork, you don't know whether MassFX works anymore than we do.
 
Hopefully out of the 5,000 units that sold we get a nice return on bloodwork. We did not run extensive bloodword. Dr.D created a formula based on solid researched that we dug up. We alpha tested and the results were exceptional. We beta tested and the results were exceptional. We released the product.

If lack of blood work makes you decide to not buy the product then so be it. We can argue this all day long.........but there is none. Way too much has been spent on the development of that custom synthesis. We needed to get this to the market quickly and we did. We can now look into having some local people we can monitor run bloodwork but that is going to take time. It's safe and effective and future blood work that anyone runs will reflect that.
 
TeamSavage said:
Bloodwork can be simply made up if someone is going to outright lie. But it's difficult to "fudge", as a scan of the original bloodwork can be easily posted. But usually when logs "lie" it is not because the logger is outright lying. There are just too many other factors and biases that play into the results: diet, previous experience, other supplements, placebo effect, etc. "Awesome workouts" and "huge pumps" don't prove anything... these are all in the mind. Nor do small gains of a few pounds, as these could easily be fat or water weight or natural gains.

MassFX is supposed to boost testosterone and free test. This is an incredibly easy effect to test. Simply get pre- and post- bloodwork for 4 or 5 testers, and that would demonstrate to most people's satisfaction that MassFX really works. As of yet, only one person got bloodwork, and there wasn't any baseline bloodwork, which means that the results are worthless. So basically, no, you are wrong, there is no bloodwork at all. That is not good enough for anybody who actually wants to see proof that something works.

I'm not bashing AX, as they have a history of releasing decent products. But without bloodwork, you don't know whether MassFX works anymore than we do.
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For me personally, it's not a question of does it work or not - my main concern would be what effects it has on lipid and endocrine profiles - more in regards to the safety/precautions.

Again it's nothing personal against AX or its products, so AX reps - please don't get too defensive. It's straight-up questioning on safety/precautions of the product using bloodwork.

IMO, and I'm sure others will agree, it should be mandatory for Alpha & Beta testers to provide not only feedback using logs, but with bloodwork as well - not only will this help customers decide if the product is for them or not, but will help with the rep of the company. Maybe something to keep in mind for future products.

Anyhow, will wait for people's results..
 
Once again, no offense taken. :D
I gave what info I had available to me. :D

I do my best to answer the questions/concerns/comments as completely as possible.
 
Y2Jversion1 said:
IMO, and I'm sure others will agree, it should be mandatory for Alpha & Beta testers to provide not only feedback using logs, but with bloodwork as well - not only will this help customers decide if the product is for them or not, but will help with the rep of the company.
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Yes! It's just stupid not to do this to establish both safety and, for a product like this, efficacy.
 
TeamSavage said:
Yes! It's just stupid not to do this to establish both safety and, for a product like this, efficacy.
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You realize to be 100% safe with any products is to simply not use them at all. We all take risks everyday eating regular food from the grocery store, e-coli runs rampid, food poisioning etc. I could get 40 customers lab tested and there would still be people wanting more. You cant please everyone no matter what extreme you go to. Most products are tested before release and usually the owners get labs of their own, those are never published. The only lab results that can be taken serious are clinical trials in controlled atmospheres.
 
FitnFirm said:
You realize to be 100% safe with any products is to simply not use them at all. We all take risks everyday eating regular food from the grocery store, e-coli runs rampid, food poisioning etc. I could get 40 customers lab tested and there would still be people wanting more. You cant please everyone no matter what extreme you go to. Most products are tested before release and usually the owners get labs of their own, those are never published. The only lab results that can be taken serious are clinical trials in controlled atmospheres.
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^^ well said
 
FitnFirm said:
You realize to be 100% safe with any products is to simply not use them at all.
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Yes, I realize that... obviously blood tests from a handful of people do not equate to a formalized clinical trial designed to test safety. But it's sure as hell a lot better than the status quo, which consists of, "Read some old research, throw a bunch of unknown substances into a capsule, mark it up 800%, and hope it works."

But most of these substances are safe... My main issue is with efficacy. For a product like MassFX that is designed to raise testosterone, it would take $200 worth of blood tests performed on half-a-dozen people to establish that it actually does, in fact, do what it is supposed to do. These blood tests should be the #1 priority pre-release, as they constitute actual evidence of a product's effectiveness. Unless we're talking about a product like Superdrol that produces gains of 10-15 pounds, IMO these logs are next to worthless for establishing what a product actually does. I could send sugar pills to 10 testers, and if I hyped it up enough 7 or 8 of the logs would be favorable.
 
There's little left for me to say; most of these posters have said it.

Now about AX: For you to criticize my knowledge of the subject is completely out of line. For one I have a background on this stuff; have taken courses including fuel metabolism, biochem, O-chem, Exercise endocrinology, physiology of exercise, nutrition, and even a course interpreting EKGs. I've actually had an article put up on a well-established nutritional site. I'll be applying to med school...and hell I might (Big might) even be bigger and stronger than you which is quite the feat considering I was vegetarian until 2 months ago.

The problem is that many of these people on the board are not chemists and don't know much other than the terms testosterone and estrogen. Most of us know that testosterone needs a carrier protein to be in the blood (SHBG), and exert an effect, but many do not. How many people on here know that you want an HDL value of at least 60? How many others are familiar with blood sugar ranges? The effect of testosterone on EPO and cardiac tissue? Exercise's influence on serotonin or are familiar with OTS or how exercise effects catecholamine production post-workout? Or how about that you are more prone to gain belly fat via LPL (I think, I need to check this one) and develop an apple shape with higher test levels present? Or that taking nolvadex can also adversely affect GH? Or what's AST and ALT? Or that test has a negative correlation with insulin sensitivity?
Those are all easy examples. I'm assuming that most of you on this board right now know them. But not a lot of people do. So it's pretty easy to skew them. And I remember reading a post about a certain AX rep that tried Superdrol and could only initially deadlift a tad over 300. I think his arm measurements were like 16 too. Not terrible; but not exactly the guy I want to be providing me with PHARMACEUTICAL advice.

So here's the thing: Not many of us are doctors or pharmacists...neither are you. So you know what that means? You ARE NOT qualified to be playing doctor/pharmacist. That is essentially what you are doing with these products. Just b/c they're herbal doesn't make them safer. There's a pretty complex molecule called Taxol that comes from a tree yet is used in chemotherapy or to help fight cancer (I'm not quite sure which). So the phrase that something is natural means NOTHING. Amazon tribesmen have poisoned their arrows with natural sources for years. Some forms of fish can be poisonous. So really anyone that is educated doesn't care if you call your product natural or not. In fact I prefer synthetic compounds b/c you're often receiving a higher concentration of the active ingredient and fewer impurities and a more standard amount of what's delivered.


So in reply to whether or not I'm attacking you? Yes I am. I'm attacking claims that you're not qualified to make or am at least not offering evidence to back up.
As mentioned before the blood work means NOTHING. You have no starting values.
The way the guy trained? What effect does that have in regards to product effect? One of the first studies they did back in 96 to actually assess whether sex steroids produce muscle-growth was done on individuals that don't workout. That proved that it's not just meatheads working out harder that account for the results; rather it was the supraphysiological doses of 300-600mg a week (versus 35-70mg of output naturally) that accounted for it. Steroids in a 12 or 16 week study I think showed a 30% increase is Muscle-Cross-Sectional-Area, something that would normally take years.

So here's what you guys need to do:

One prove that this product actually meets your claims: Claims like gives an unbelievable pump etc sound more like insulin than test as a side note. So get some BEFORE and AFTER blood-work taken at the same time of the day. There's generally a ~10% variance in TEST measurements. Measure both free and total test. Also measure the corresponding effect on estradiol.
If you find it lowers estradiol I think it would be wise to have a few DEXA scans done on willing participants to assess before and after bone density b/c of its effects on calcium.
I would also have blood-draws biweekly while on the product and for at least 6-8 weeks after the products administration was done. I'd also do a full lipid and liver check though in general with steroids no permanent damage results.

And in case you don't have any responders I would have the people keep at least one food log a week so in case they counter they're having no results you can POSSIBLY counter that their protein intake is inadequate. Remember that saying they're not working out is not a reason for your product to not work; if it works as well as prohormones or steroids it should produce effects in sedentary individuals. In fact you just might want to take some sedentary individuals and assess their VO2 max before and after, along with 1RM.

Here's the other thing; raising test just slightly (like to the levels seen in that blood test) is not going to produce serious results. Most studies in the past failed to show steroids working; until they actually used high enough doses. Now it's standard medical practice to administer supraphysiological doses to patients suffering from wasting diseases such as AIDS.

Also you mention how much money it took to develop your product? Really how can it be that much? All it seems like it took was Dr. D's salary who poked around on Medline; read some studies (most of which I would guess were performed on animals, not humans), and conjured up some product. In no way am I doubting Dr. D b/c I have never corresponded with the man but the way your present him as creating this product does not speak much. Anyone can go onto Medline, pub med, and find a few sentences to suit their need for a product they're researching.

So please AX: Rise above the rest. Don't make dubious claims you cannot back up. Look at Big Pharma this week; after years of testing they had to pull a drug that could've been a blockbuster. Sometimes you just don't know things right away. And just the fact that it seems that you’re basing all of your research on just one opinion (Dr. D's) makes it all seem more dubious.
You guys are reps for the company. Yes I know you're supposed to promote the product but instead you have to defend it. I guess it sucks; not all the other companies seem to have to live up to such scrutiny. Well most companies didn't sell a product (even if you did not manufacture it) that produced gyno in unwitting people that thought it was a safe progesterone, not a steroid.
So I don't hate you guys. I tried Pheraplex, and while the conditions I subjected it to were harsh with work, I can say upfront that it worked nowhere near as well as 1-ad in terms of volumizing me. But with a proper diet I leaned up quick on it based on others perceptions though there were no strength gains and I was dizzy and lightheaded constantly.
I like Stimulant X; I've given it to plenty of people and only found one non-responder. Everyone else has asked for more. In fact I just mentioned to my room-mate tonight that based on how small that cap is and how effective it is I wonder if there's something else in it that's not listed it making it so powerful. I would not be surprised (even my beloved 1-ad was contaminated with boldenone).

So all I'm saying is set some standards for yourself; rise above the rest. If you want a blockbuster; provide justification that it should be. Don't start whining that we'll never have enough if you provide blood-work. You still haven't posted anything that answers our question of "What effect does it have on serum testosterone levels and SHBG, estradiol, and on one's lipid profile)." Not to mention that the one tester you had was on about 20 other things if you look at his list so it's pretty hard to draw any conclusions on what was actually producing an effect on his system being that there were SO MANY other variables.
And he was a prohormone user. While LH and FSH rebound rather quickly TEST does not. Would you like me to reference that also? Not to mention the down-regulation on receptors issue (oh here's a cool factoid; 97% of our hormone receptors are not used, they're "spare receptors")
That's the other thing I forgot to mention. If you do decide to act reputable and not just say something you can't back up based on human models, try and do the tests on someone that is not taking twenty other things at once, and in varying populations.
 
The purpose of a product representative is to represent the minds behind the company on these boards. I don't know what rep your reffering to, I know its at least not me, but in fairness to what your saying, the size of the rep has little to do with his position.

Thank you for you opinions, and I'm sure there will be bloodwork available in the near future.
 
PP, thank you very much for your support of Stimulant X!

Thanks for your comments, insights and opinions.

HAVE A NICE DAY! :D
 
Okay, to jump in here on AX and one or two of their products and not 90% of them out tehre who either have little to no bloodwork to back up their claims is just wrong.

If you don't like the product then fine, don't buy it. If you got a product and it didn't work, then fine make a review and say why. If you feel the science is bad behind a product then make a thread...

But this is bashing for the sake of bashing because you feel you are able to attack someone's education or perhaps lack thereof? Anyways i'm not going to take too long on this so here's the bottom line.

There was only one person who had bloodwork. If you don't like it then YOU go get baseline values and then run post values. I'm sure they would be more than happy to supply you with some product if you agreed to review and post the bloodwork.
 
Jayhawkk said:
Okay, to jump in here on AX and one or two of their products and not 90% of them out tehre who either have little to no bloodwork to back up their claims is just wrong.

If you don't like the product then fine, don't buy it. If you got a product and it didn't work, then fine make a review and say why. If you feel the science is bad behind a product then make a thread...

But this is bashing for the sake of bashing because you feel you are able to attack someone's education or perhaps lack thereof? Anyways i'm not going to take too long on this so here's the bottom line.

There was only one person who had bloodwork. If you don't like it then YOU go get baseline values and then run post values. I'm sure they would be more than happy to supply you with some product if you agreed to review and post the bloodwork.
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AX is not the only company that I have posed questions to like this. I just don't feel they're conducting adequate research on their products. Most companies don't. It would be simple for them to dig themselves out of the hole as mentioned before: just do some bloodwork that actually means something.
Ok so according to BigSmith:
"Way too much has been spent on the development of that custom synthesis."
How is that when you just said:
"Dr.D created a formula based on solid researched that we dug up."
That doesn't sound too hard; just a salary to pay and hours in the lab researching.

Also I was the original one called a C student. That one really offends me when I spend more time in the library than my home. Just to be bashed b/c I don't jump onto a band-wagon and kiss their ass? That's OUT OF LINE.
Secondly you have presales of thousands of units. That's thousands of potential lawsuits if you don't do your homework correctly b/c once again in your words "We needed to get this to the market quickly and we did." Yes so you could beat your competitors. But in the same time you might (not for sure) have overlooked other safety factors. While there is nothing wrong with making a profit (I'm an objectivist), you guys are possibly shooting yourselves in the foot if something goes wrong.
"We can now look into having some local people we can monitor run bloodwork but that is going to take time."
I feel so much more secure now. I'm glad that you're taking the initiative to get this done but should this not be done first on ANY product, not just AX's? Sure you have a bunch of good research on the prodcut but when you combine ingredients you never know.
I believe Vitamin E has been shown in research studies to be of benefit of those at high risk for a heart attack yet it's not always reccomended b/c later meta-analysis showed it to increase all-over mortality.
At least I'm saying things that I can back up here.
A statement like:
"It's safe and effective and future blood work that anyone runs will reflect that," you can't back up. Or wait..you can predict the future now?

I don't have anything with you guys. It would make me happy to be proven wrong here. I'd be glad to know that their are safe alternatives to drugs out there. But at this point I don't see anything substanstial backing up these ANECDOTAL claims.
 
Proteinpowda said:
AX is not the only company that I have posed questions to like this. I just don't feel they're conducting adequate research on their products. Most companies don't. It would be simple for them to dig themselves out of the hole as mentioned before: just do some bloodwork that actually means something.
Ok so according to BigSmith:
"Way too much has been spent on the development of that custom synthesis."
How is that when you just said:
"Dr.D created a formula based on solid researched that we dug up."
That doesn't sound too hard; just a salary to pay and hours in the lab researching.

Also I was the original one called a C student. That one really offends me when I spend more time in the library than my home. Just to be bashed b/c I don't jump onto a band-wagon and kiss their ass? That's OUT OF LINE.
Secondly you have presales of thousands of units. That's thousands of potential lawsuits if you don't do your homework correctly b/c once again in your words "We needed to get this to the market quickly and we did." Yes so you could beat your competitors. But in the same time you might (not for sure) have overlooked other safety factors. While there is nothing wrong with making a profit (I'm an objectivist), you guys are possibly shooting yourselves in the foot if something goes wrong.
"We can now look into having some local people we can monitor run bloodwork but that is going to take time."
I feel so much more secure now. I'm glad that you're taking the initiative to get this done but should this not be done first on ANY product, not just AX's? Sure you have a bunch of good research on the prodcut but when you combine ingredients you never know.
I believe Vitamin E has been shown in research studies to be of benefit of those at high risk for a heart attack yet it's not always reccomended b/c later meta-analysis showed it to increase all-over mortality.
At least I'm saying things that I can back up here.
A statement like:
"It's safe and effective and future blood work that anyone runs will reflect that," you can't back up. Or wait..you can predict the future now?

I don't have anything with you guys. It would make me happy to be proven wrong here. I'd be glad to know that their are safe alternatives to drugs out there. But at this point I don't see anything substanstial backing up these ANECDOTAL claims.
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Hmm my sig says: Sarcasm, Embrace or Hate it, Its Who I Am...

Well that is what describes me, nothing more nothing less. I am respectful when respect is given, and you have shown disrespect at least to me by comparing AX to some company who will remain name less who made a crappy prodcut touting outlandish claims.

Now lets get to my comment I said you were a C student because you did not take the time to read Ersatz log to POSE VALID questions. Now I am sorry you took offense to my comment, as you had to prove how great of a student you are, and how the Libriarian makes you dinner, and a nappy couch in the University of Somewhere has your indentation from hours of reading and aquiring knowledge. Great, that's good, I am glad for you. But during the time you are soaking up knowledge trying to conquer the World BRAIN! -Us reps and our Dr. D along with others from AX are researching too, and you know what we talk to each other and have ideas, and then guess what supplements get formulated and then we test em to make sure they work, then us reps get on the boards with our whips and bullhorns and make outlandish claims without real world results.


Oh wait but since we cannot back up the supps by the holy grail of blood work, we should have to answer to the Mighty ProteinPOWDA fool!?
"Also you mention how much money it took to develop your product? Really how can it be that much? All it seems like it took was Dr. D's salary who poked around on Medline; read some studies (most of which I would guess were performed on animals, not humans), and conjured up some product. In no way am I doubting Dr. D b/c I have never corresponded with the man but the way your present him as creating this product does not speak much. Anyone can go onto Medline, pub med, and find a few sentences to suit their need for a product they're researching."

Hmm wait what this you have never corresponded with the man-sad I tell you... Yet you come on here and act like he is AR or something, you have some nerve. I can rant on and on about his credentials and being that he is busy and he is a PERSONAL friend I take HIGH OFFENSE to your tone, and implications. He was solving complex Problems, and drawing chemical molecules when you had a bib on spitting up from colic, and being lactose intolerant...
I or anybody from AX never said you had to kiss AX arse. I am the only smartass from the group that has answered you in a tone. So in the future if you are going to write something about me, how about you quote me- be DIRECT.
Now back to your demands PP, I am sorry that we cannot give all the testers blood work, but in the near future I am sure it will happen, thats all I can say.

Also, since you are on the ETHICS COMMITEE ON SUPPS I think Washington has a place for ya... :thumbsup:


All in all if you do not like our products I am sorry, but do not come to our forum with your soy milk induced superiority complex, telling us how we cannot make claims we cannot back up...
That is the PROVEN way WE test out products, so once again I am sory we don't meet up to your "high" standards and such, but I think AX's customer base speaks for itself...
 
Apowerz6 said:
Hmm my sig says: Sarcasm, Embrace or Hate it, Its Who I Am...

Well that is what describes me, nothing more nothing less. I am respectful when respect is given, and you have shown disrespect at least to me by comparing AX to some company who will remain name less who made a crappy prodcut touting outlandish claims.

Now lets get to my comment I said you were a C student because you did not take the time to read Ersatz log to POSE VALID questions. Now I am sorry you took offense to my comment, as you had to prove how great of a student you are, and how the Libriarian makes you dinner, and a nappy couch in the University of Somewhere has your indentation from hours of reading and aquiring knowledge. Great, that's good, I am glad for you. But during the time you are soaking up knowledge trying to conquer the World BRAIN! -Us reps and our Dr. D along with others from AX are researching too, and you know what we talk to each other and have ideas, and then guess what supplements get formulated and then we test em to make sure they work, then us reps get on the boards with our whips and bullhorns and make outlandish claims without real world results.


Oh wait but since we cannot back up the supps by the holy grail of blood work, we should have to answer to the Mighty ProteinPOWDA fool!?
"Also you mention how much money it took to develop your product? Really how can it be that much? All it seems like it took was Dr. D's salary who poked around on Medline; read some studies (most of which I would guess were performed on animals, not humans), and conjured up some product. In no way am I doubting Dr. D b/c I have never corresponded with the man but the way your present him as creating this product does not speak much. Anyone can go onto Medline, pub med, and find a few sentences to suit their need for a product they're researching."

Hmm wait what this you have never corresponded with the man-sad I tell you... Yet you come on here and act like he is AR or something, you have some nerve. I can rant on and on about his credentials and being that he is busy and he is a PERSONAL friend I take HIGH OFFENSE to your tone, and implications. He was solving complex Problems, and drawing chemical molecules when you woke up to your first wet dream guy.
I or anybody from AX never said you had to kiss AX arse. I am the only smartass from the group that has answered you in a tone. So in the future if you are going to write something about me, how about you quote me- be DIRECT.
Now back to your demands PP, I am sorry that we cannot give all the testers blood work, but in the near future I am sure it will happen, thats all I can say.

Also, since you are on the ETHICS COMMITEE ON SUPPS I think Washington has a place for ya... :thumbsup:


All in all if you do not like our products I am sorry, but do not come to our forum with your soy milk induced superiority complex, telling us how we cannot make claims we cannot back up...
That is the PROVEN way WE test out products, so once again I am sory we don't meet up to your "high" standards and such, but I think our customer base speaks for itself...
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That was funny.
Oh and P.S. I was kicked off the Biotest forums before for taking a stance against their claims. You're at least willing to post blood-work once you get it and let people discuss your products. They're...not. But most of the posts I made on the topic never went through.
P.S. Their gurus trashed you too back in the Superdrol. day...but oddly enough the Superdrol logs on the site supported you; except for the gyno ones of course.

And in case you failed to notice I didn't take a stance against Dr. D. I said I don't know enough to evaluate him.

But in response to your bloodwork I don't think there is much to respond to. The amount of test present is just not significant. It would range as mid to mid-high. Steroid like results would have your tests levels closer to 1500-3000.
Also I made clear some simple ways you could test the effectiveness of your product. You want to see if it has some steroid like effect (lets not kid ourselves and believe prohormones are different than steroids; they're just the precursor and are converted to such though they do exert anabolic effects b/c converted) simply have some non-weightlifters try the product. Have them have a high protein intake too. Give one group MassFx and give the other group Placebo. If the effects are truly steroid-like the group would have results without even lifting.
Oh by the way I farted in the quiet study area of the library today. Is that allowed?
 
I've had pre and post bloodwork done for the following supps both on and off this forum.

Diesel Test
6-oxo
Ergomax, PCT with Nolvadex.

Necro and I would probably be willing to get pre and post bloodwork done for this compound if given enough product to do a decent test. We live in Australia and bloodwork is very very cheap here. I always get my done at the same lab.
 
Closing this as it's resorted to name calling. I said earlier how to get certain points addressed. In the future do so with the product itself as the subject not the individuals. Drama doesn't do anything in the lines of bringing forward information.
 
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