TeamSavage
Registered User
Any word on when we will have a detailed write-up for MassFX? What about information on the 25R-diol ingredient? Since MassFX is now on-sale I'm sure people would like to know how it works.
MassFX 25R-diol Write-Up?
- Thread starter TeamSavage
- Start date
TeamSavage
Registered User
Umm... yes. Everybody knows how the 3,4-DVTHF works. As for the 25R-diol that I asked about, all I could find from AX reps was that it's "going to create a lot of testosterone". I was hoping to receive actual information on how this occurs. I apologize if this was already discussed in another thread and I missed it... perhaps you could point me in the right direction?FitnFirm said:
It's great that Dr. D helped develop this formula. I just assumed now that MassFX is on sale, somebody at AX besides Dr. D would actually know something about the main ingredient.
TeamSavage
Registered User
TeamSavage said:
I guess I assumed wrong.
It just blows my mind that people are climbing all over themselves to buy MassFX when even the AX reps have absolutely no information on the main ingredient. No offense intended to either of you, Mace and FnF. You're doing your best and waiting on Dr. D, and I'm not trying to take a shot at you two or AX in general. I'm just dumbfounded that people have been told absolutely nothing about 25R-diol and are still willing to buy it. :blink:
In any case, I am curious about this 25R-diol ingredient and will now shutup and wait patiently for Dr. D to educate us.
BigSmith
Well-known member
Savage...........You just have to wait. We have an agreement with Dr.D that when HE develops a product any info will come from HIM. I could go run my mouth about the compound and it would not be 100% accurate. No one at AX besides D is a chemist. We all have a 10,000 foot understanding about how this works. We have agreed to let him get the details out. Relax, take a deep breath, it's coming. I promise.
AX has one goal. To release amazing products. This is our first venture into doing everything internally (normally we license and materials are provided). It's a learning process and we are doing our best.
AX has one goal. To release amazing products. This is our first venture into doing everything internally (normally we license and materials are provided). It's a learning process and we are doing our best.
TeamSavage
Registered User
BigSmith said:
Thank you for the clarification. It is good to know that the silence of the AX reps on 25R-diol is due to contractual obligation, not ignorance. (I'm still amazed that people actually buy a product without any information on its main ingredient... but that's on them, not you.)
:: returns to waiting patiently ::
BigSmith
Well-known member
You know how many companies sell products like that? :ntome:TeamSavage said:
Write-ups are the norm for smaller companies building a loyal online following of smart individuals. They are defiantly not the norm in this industry. I fully agree with having them but this time a few things happened and we lost some time. I imagine a mini FAQ will be out any day
Thanks for your patienceBigSmith :stick: Dr.D
Seriously though I am sure that I have been stressing him out with the workloads as of late. He is a great guy and brilliant........
macedaddy
Board Sponsor
TeamSavage said:
No offense taken, Savage! :afro:
But lets get ONE thing straight! FnF is NOT affiliated with AX. She is ALRI. She has been helpful and her knowledge is immense! But she is NOT with AX! SHE ONLY WISHES SHE WAS!! :rasp:
Also, I would hope by this time that people would understand that I am here for total disclosure. If I knew the mechanism and all the other technical (or even the plain english) stuff. I would definitely have it out!
At this point, all I know is:
I used it for 6 weeks and had incredible gains and awesome workouts! We had 30 testers and they ALL had incredible results! I read every post of every log, so I have a very intimate relationship with this product.
FitnFirm
Banned
:type: * FnF hacks into Macedaddy's computer to hijack all the secret details of Mass Fx 
*
:aargh: *FnF is mad, she has to sort out info from all the porn on his computer*
:woohoo: * FnF almost done *
:think: * FnF very confused ! All she can see is a document for homeade gummy bears * :frustrate
FnF leaves Macedaddy with a parting gift :nutkick:
*:aargh: *FnF is mad, she has to sort out info from all the porn on his computer*
:woohoo: * FnF almost done
*:think: * FnF very confused ! All she can see is a document for homeade gummy bears * :frustrate
FnF leaves Macedaddy with a parting gift :nutkick:
lanky
Active member
i base my guess on nothing in particular. i do not have any previous knowledge of spirostan metabolism, nor have i read any journal articles or synthesis on the subject. i will base my guess based on what happens to most chemical structures of this type (A,B,C and D- ring)(i have no idea what will happen to the whole "spiro""E, and F ring", if it is even called that.
mooving on- this is the chemical structure of mass fx- (3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol
one or more of the following may or may not occur
-the hydroxy on carbon 3 might turn into a keto by the enzyme 3HSD
-the hydroxy group on carbon 6 may do one or more of the following 3 things. - turn into a keto, make a double bond 5-ene, or stays the same. (all this is a guess)..."keep the 5-ene idea for later which i will comment on"
i have no idea of the reason or changes that will occur with the whole spirostan part of the chemical..it may or may not have a ring opening or get cleaved off "cut off" and you may be left with a 17 OH,,or it may stay the same.
about the 5-ene--- so we may have a 5-ene and a 3-OH ,,possible- oh nevermind, for now
multiple metabolites/ multiple effects..aromatase inhibitor (3,6keto metabolites, 3,4 divanyl), anabolic effect(insert metabolite(s) here)?
i based the previous on nothing in particular..it is just my rambling
I look foward to Dr. D's writeup
mooving on- this is the chemical structure of mass fx- (3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol
one or more of the following may or may not occur
-the hydroxy on carbon 3 might turn into a keto by the enzyme 3HSD
-the hydroxy group on carbon 6 may do one or more of the following 3 things. - turn into a keto, make a double bond 5-ene, or stays the same. (all this is a guess)..."keep the 5-ene idea for later which i will comment on"
i have no idea of the reason or changes that will occur with the whole spirostan part of the chemical..it may or may not have a ring opening or get cleaved off "cut off" and you may be left with a 17 OH,,or it may stay the same.
about the 5-ene--- so we may have a 5-ene and a 3-OH ,,possible- oh nevermind, for now
multiple metabolites/ multiple effects..aromatase inhibitor (3,6keto metabolites, 3,4 divanyl), anabolic effect(insert metabolite(s) here)?
i based the previous on nothing in particular..it is just my rambling
I look foward to Dr. D's writeup
macedaddy
Board Sponsor
khan-unit said:
KHAN! YOU CAN NOT MENTION ANY OF OUR PREVIOUS PROHORMONE PRODUCTS IN OUR SECTION! I have warned you ONCE BEFORE! I WILL HAVE TO TAKE EXTREME MEASURES IF IT CONTINUES!
I heard rumors that I MIGHT have the write-up some time next week and if so, I WILL post it up! Depends once again on the workload of Dr. D. :ntome:
TeamSavage
Registered User
Here's an article on 25R-diol that I was forwarded:
Invalid Link Removed
Unfortunately, it sheds no light on how this compound might actually increase testosterone.
:: returns to waiting patiently ::
Invalid Link Removed
Unfortunately, it sheds no light on how this compound might actually increase testosterone.
:: returns to waiting patiently ::
TeamSavage
Registered User
cdawg123 said:
Thanks... definitely not affiliated. I read it once and it certainly sounds good, but just about everything sounds good in the official write-up. I'm going to reread it and then ask Dr. D for clarification and research on a few points. Once I get his answers, I will let you know what I think.
DazzlinJack
Member
this massfx stuff sounds cool. anything that isn't a PH or 'roid but can make the body pump out more Man Juice is Cool. kinda like how yams can supposedly make us pump out more Woman Juice which is Not Cool (but Women by themselves are Cool). I look forward to increasing my Man Juice with this supp!
TeamSavage
Registered User
Well according to the write-up, 25R-diol definitely will not make you pump out more man juice. AX previously stated that 25R-diol would increase testosterone, but apparently they were confused because the write-up speaks of a completely different mechanism (which is a little hazy, hence the need to ask Dr. D for clarification and supporting research).
The DVTHM will free up some man juice, though.
The DVTHM will free up some man juice, though.
TeamSavage
Registered User
macedaddy said:
<Sigh>
"That is because it should be coupled with a good AI. (3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol is going to create a lot of T and with the DVTHF freeing it up, the odds of estrogen conversion increase. That can cause shutdown and estro related sides, so the AI is just insurance, not everyone needs it probably but it's a good idea to include and help elevate test even higher anyway (or at least negate shutdown). That is why the logs were Mass FX + Hyperdrol (6-Br)"
-BigSmith, November 11
Invalid Link Removed, post #25
As I said, AX previously stated that 25R-diol would increase testosterone, but apparently they were confused.
BigSmith
Well-known member
Actually it will make you pump out more "juice". Although it is not the main mode of action it does help LH. The statement the reps posted came right from Dr.D. Our agreement is we do not post anything science wise unless it comes from D. (Hence the delay in releasing the full mode of action)TeamSavage said:
Unless Dr.D says otherwise that statement stays. Obviously you are correct though and it is the secondary mode of action.
"That is because it should be coupled with a good AI. 25R--diol is going to create a lot of T and with the DVTHF freeing it up, the odds of estrogen conversion increase. That can cause shutdown and estro related sides, so the AI is just insurance, not everyone needs it probably but it's a good idea to include and help elevate test even higher anyway (or at least negate shutdown). That is why the logs were Mass FX + Hyperdrol "(6-Br)"
TeamSavage
Registered User
cdawg123 said:
I've asked Dr. D questions here:
Invalid Link Removed
It is amusing how the write-up wasn't proofread or even run through spellcheck and grammar check before being released.
BigSmith
Well-known member
Good deal. #1 he will not answer and I explained. The rest he can answer.TeamSavage said:
If you are just here to bash you can leave. We worked hard and fast to get the write-up out ASAP. That is what you wanted right? Now you are "amused" because there is a spelling error. You have our apologies.
TeamSavage
Registered User
Bashing? I am just trying to get some answers... that's it.
And yes, I am amused that the write-up wasn't proofread. It's not "a spelling error". The whole thing is riddled with stuff that a cursory proofread or even grammar check would have caught. I'm not saying this means that MassFX isn't a good product. But in general, that sort of sloppiness doesn't reflect well on a product.
As I said, I just want answers. The write-up is quite sketchy about how 25R-diol works. It makes interesting claims but doesn't provide evidence or even explanation of how the claimed benefits occur. Hopefully Dr. D's response on your board will help to clarify my confusion.
But it's extremely disappointing that the write-up mentions numerous studies but, according to your response on 'Ask Dr. D', you're unwilling to provide them.
And yes, I am amused that the write-up wasn't proofread. It's not "a spelling error". The whole thing is riddled with stuff that a cursory proofread or even grammar check would have caught. I'm not saying this means that MassFX isn't a good product. But in general, that sort of sloppiness doesn't reflect well on a product.
As I said, I just want answers. The write-up is quite sketchy about how 25R-diol works. It makes interesting claims but doesn't provide evidence or even explanation of how the claimed benefits occur. Hopefully Dr. D's response on your board will help to clarify my confusion.
But it's extremely disappointing that the write-up mentions numerous studies but, according to your response on 'Ask Dr. D', you're unwilling to provide them.
Apowerz6
Board Sponsor
TeamSavage said:
Ahh I respect your sarcasm, but please understand that due the hounding of some people and the recent release of certain compounds similar to our own, we had to put a rush on the write-up. Granted a spell check would have caught certain things, we are not perfect, and since day one you and other members have been on our ass like feces on a baby's diaper about how it works. So now that you have a write up, you are complaining its not up to your grammatical standard, well I am sorry your standards are so high and cannot overlook certain errors and pose questions in our forum without a condescending tone. So there you have it I hope my write-up and answer is up to your expectation, as Savagery gets you a long way...
macedaddy
Board Sponsor
why would we publish every single detail so any other company in the industry can steal the product? YOU OBVIOUSLY don't understand the industry. There are so many copy-cats and people willing to make a buck out there that sound science and research go out the door! You wanna know how it ALL works and ALL the references? Guess what there is a library on practically every corner in this country!
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!
We provided what was asked for. We will answer any and all questions that we legally can. If you are dissatisfied then go somewhere else. I have a feeling that even after releasing reference after reference and article after article you would still be a skeptic. So either use the product or don't!
Those that have, are happy.
AND NO PROOF? How about 30+ logs all of which had favorable results!?!??!
DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!
We provided what was asked for. We will answer any and all questions that we legally can. If you are dissatisfied then go somewhere else. I have a feeling that even after releasing reference after reference and article after article you would still be a skeptic. So either use the product or don't!
Those that have, are happy.
AND NO PROOF? How about 30+ logs all of which had favorable results!?!??!
TeamSavage
Registered User
Damn, I wasn't complaining about the grammer, I was just pointing it out. To me it makes absolutely no difference. I only care about the compounds, the mechanisms, the research, and the results.
I actually own a supplement company (not BB/weightlifting related), so I know where you're coming from. Mistakes happen, errors get overlooked, etc. But I think you're underestimating the importance of spelling, grammer, and other aspects of presentation.
You are essentially saying "Trust us" with your promotion of the product. You are making claims, but the customer has to take a leap-of-faith to believe these claims and buy the product. Quality supplements are not the results of sloppiness. Did the company check out the raw material supplier? Did the company have the raw material independently analyzed? Is the company using a GMP-certified, Drug Licensed manufacturing facility? Did the company thoroughly review the supporting research, or did they just glance at a few abstracts? When a write-up is riddled with simple spelling and grammar errors, it signals sloppiness. If a company is sloppy with something like a write-up, this suggests they may also be sloppy in other, more complex (and more important) areas of the process.
Frankly, I don't give a sh!t about the spelling and grammar errors. But since you want to focus on that comment, there's the reason why it matters and isn't trivial.
I actually own a supplement company (not BB/weightlifting related), so I know where you're coming from. Mistakes happen, errors get overlooked, etc. But I think you're underestimating the importance of spelling, grammer, and other aspects of presentation.
You are essentially saying "Trust us" with your promotion of the product. You are making claims, but the customer has to take a leap-of-faith to believe these claims and buy the product. Quality supplements are not the results of sloppiness. Did the company check out the raw material supplier? Did the company have the raw material independently analyzed? Is the company using a GMP-certified, Drug Licensed manufacturing facility? Did the company thoroughly review the supporting research, or did they just glance at a few abstracts? When a write-up is riddled with simple spelling and grammar errors, it signals sloppiness. If a company is sloppy with something like a write-up, this suggests they may also be sloppy in other, more complex (and more important) areas of the process.
Frankly, I don't give a sh!t about the spelling and grammar errors. But since you want to focus on that comment, there's the reason why it matters and isn't trivial.
BigSmith
Well-known member
Savate................Enough we get your point.TeamSavage said:
AX has NEVER, not once released a product that did not work. We purchased and entire lab for Dr.D just to ensure an extra layer of quality control. Raws are tested and staged in GMP certified facilities while awaiting production. We use of of the largest manufacturers for our capping/bottling. We have a custom synth on 25R-diol and we have been using this factory for a long time. They are as good as it gets. We are a top notch company that does not play with the quality of our products. The Write-Up is something that less than 1% of our customers will ever see. It was only provided so individuals like yourself could get a little deeper into the product. We did it quick and fast so you could have the info that you wanted. I ran it though Adobe grammar check AGAIN right now and it picked up no mistakes. Of course re-reading it we know there are but enough is enough. We have provided what the ingredients are and how they work. We have also sponsored 30 solid logs and soon will have 30 more. The feedback on 25R-diol has been overwhelmingly positive. Your additional question is in the AX forum for Dr.D to answered. If that is not enough then by all means do not buy/take the product.
TeamSavage
Registered User
macedaddy said:
I actually own a supplement company that sells over 80,000 bottles a year (completely unrelated to bodybuilding/weightlifting), so I understand how the industry works. I fail to see why simply referencing the studies would make it easier for someone to steal the product. The compound is known, and that's all that's needed to clone the product. Why would a competing company need the supporting research in order to have the chemical manufactured? They wouldn't.
And I'm happy to go to the library and retrieve the articles, as you suggest. All I'm asking for is references. You're trying to sell a product, the write-up is making claims based on this "study" and that "study", but when I simply request citations you say, "DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!" Does that make sense to you, because it doesn't to me.
macedaddy said:
If the research behind the compound is solid then that will silence my skepticism. If the mechanism can be sufficiently explained then that will also go a long way. I am not trying to stir sh!t here. I have no quarrel with AX. I'm simply trying to learn about 25R-diol, I'm simply trying to get answers. And no, I will not be satisfied with an answer of "It does X and Y, and you'll just have to trust us."
BigSmith
Well-known member
All of the references that matter discuss the synth or the source of the material. Yes that is handing the compound out on a silver platter. Come on your smarter than that. Take the nettle extract for example. Just because you know what it is does not mean you are going to get a quality extraction process. You know how many junk samples we have tested. For 25R-diol if the other companies do not know the base materials and extraction/synth process they are going to get junk.TeamSavage said:
TeamSavage
Registered User
BigSmith said:
Thank you for the answer. So you're saying that the two studies I asked about (regarding libido and LH) both also discuss the synthesis or extraction of the compound?
I've already read a lengthy, English-language article that discusses source and extraction. The information is no secret. The beneficial effects of the compound are the secret, but it seems like that's a secret you'd want out.
In any case, I'm eager to read Dr. D's answers regarding the mechanism.
BigSmith
Well-known member
Yes the three non English articles discuss the synth and base material. I can guarantee they are different from the articles you have (I know which articles they are). This is THE reason Mass FX works so well.TeamSavage said:
Anywho I also look forward to hearing Dr.D's answers. Until then.......
TeamSavage
Registered User
macedaddy said:
I am asking about a specific compound: 25R-diol.
You are referring the logs that virtually all utilized two different products, MassFX and Hyperdrol, that contain a combined seven different compounds. This makes it impossible to determine what reported benefits were caused by 25R-diol
Moreover, MassFX contains DVTHM, and Hyperdrol contains an anti-aromatase. In other words, the NHA stack. People have reported favorable, significant results using these alone. This makes it even more impossible to determine the effect of 25R-diol.
Finally, it is a mistake to underestimate the placebo effect and the impact it has on logs. How many glowing logs have been written about products that were later found to be ineffective? Thousands. Maybe tens-of-thousands.
Do these logs tell us about MassFX+Hyperdrol? Yes (although placebo shouldn't be ignored). Do these logs inform us about 25R-diol specifically? Absolutely not. They tell us nada, zero, zilch, nothing, about the effects of 25R-diol.
Do you now see why these logs do not satisfy my curiosity and skepticism about this compound, and why I'm interested in actually understanding the mechanism and reviewing research?
DeerDeer
Registered User
TeamSavage said:
I think it i svaluable to be able to have the references presented that substantiate the safety and possible efficacy of this compound. Otherwise many individuals are introducing a product into their bodies without any knowledge of its mode of action and potential adverse effects.
I am simply looking for knowledge and references for my perusal. Believe me, if you offer this information up and it is deemed adequate, you will change skeptics to advocates in a heartbeat.
Some of us do have science and medical backgrounds that prompt us to dig deeper into "new" compounds with claims suchs as those you are suggesting.
Fill us in!
DeerDeer
Registered User
BigSmith said:
I don't think abyone wants any proprietary info. All I think is being asked is that data on the studies and simple references be provided rather than uncontrolled, unsupervised , and alledged unbiased logs as reference material.
The reluctance to provide simple references on a compound deemed SAFE sparks some questions and wariness ont he part of the consumer, no?
BigSmith
Well-known member
As I have said before our company will not be releasing the references. The references give away the information that makes Mass FX what it is. In the future? Possibly. If this causes us to lose a sale or five then we will have to live with that. It will help keep our formula safe in the end. It is a company decision from the top and will not be changed. Time to move on from the references it is a dead horse.
It is possible that ALRI has the three non english docs for their BAM product. If they decide to release these references (which I doubt they will it is a gold mine) then it will be out.
It is possible that ALRI has the three non english docs for their BAM product. If they decide to release these references (which I doubt they will it is a gold mine) then it will be out.
DeerDeer
Registered User
BigSmith said:
From a company standpoint, I would be worried that I would lost much more than 5 sales because of the inability to demonstrate anyhting along the lines of safety and data to substantiate the claims - doing so would actually boost sales - atleast provide excerpts or something along those lines.
Again - I don't want to come off as attacking but more like letting you know you would have major advocates of the product if more info was given.
Cheers!
BTW - I LOVE stimX
yeahright
Well-known member
To those who have concerns about the efficacy of this product, I believe you have your answer: For business reasons AX isn't going to release the information you request.
I'd suggest avoiding the product if this raises concerns but it's no longer a productive line of discussion here.
I'd suggest avoiding the product if this raises concerns but it's no longer a productive line of discussion here.