Mass Fx and Hyperdrol X2 legal in competition?

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Basically I'm wondering if these are supplements that natural athletes can use? Are there non-hormonal? Or do they manipulate the HPTA axis?

And how exactly do they work if they are not PH's? By what means do they cause the anabolic effects sans the androgenic effects?

 

[sublimejeh]

Basically I'm wondering if these are supplements that natural athletes can use? Are there non-hormonal? Or do they manipulate the HPTA axis?

And how exactly do they work if they are not PH's? By what means do they cause the anabolic effects sans the androgenic effects?

They work by boosting your EXISTING hormones. It completely depends upon the organization, so I cannot tell you from the information you have given if they would be allowed. Are you talking NCAA or bodybuilding or what?

For example, I know natural organizations such as OCB and INBF are very against anti-estrogen type products, but i do not believe that 6-bromo is on the banned list of either... yet.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Im not much into bodybuilding. I do more powerlifting and martial arts like judo and also im an avid wrestler.

I looked up the banned ingredients and i didnt see any of them on the NCAA anti-doping banned substances list. But at the same time I dont know what exactly is 25R-diol....

 

[pickitup]

Im not much into bodybuilding. I do more powerlifting and martial arts like judo and also im an avid wrestler.

I looked up the banned ingredients and i didnt see any of them on the NCAA anti-doping banned substances list. But at the same time I dont know what exactly is 25R-diol....

I see you're 22, so if you're doing collegiate powerlifting, it isn't sanctioned by the NCAA. USAPL is the main federation (as far as I know), so check their site.

 

[T-AD]

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong (not often, but it happens every few decades...), MassFX should be permitted but HX2 might have an issue. Specific ingredients may not correspond with the list, but if it lists "aromotase inhibitors", then products like HyperdrolX2 would be banned. It contains 6-bromo, pretty much the king-daddy of all other OTC AIs. It'd be best to check the lists and ask questions to any officials you can contact before starting any supplementation program. Taking products and having accelerated progress is always nice, but if it means you can't use that size and strength when it counts, then it's not worth the effort.

 

[thesinner]

Im not much into bodybuilding. I do more powerlifting and martial arts like judo and also im an avid wrestler.

I looked up the banned ingredients and i didnt see any of them on the NCAA anti-doping banned substances list. But at the same time I dont know what exactly is 25R-diol....

Look for diosgenin.

Although 25R-diol is NOT diosgenin, they are similar in chemical structure and provide for coinciding metabolites. 25R-diol is another spirostane, with a little bit nicer metabolism. That being said, if they don't allow diosgenin, they probably won't like you if you use 25R-diol.

I'll lastly say that these products increase free and total testosterone. Although from your natural metabolism, a steroids test for testosterone cannot differentiate between natural and synthetic. This means if your test levels are above their cut-off standards, the test will say you are taking testosterone. Although very rare, I would assume that nothing is impossible when it could risk losing what I've worked so hard to win.

 

[dlinelifter]

jus cuz its not on the ncaa list doesn't mean its not going to come up as a positive on the test. Not sure if massfx is going to increase the test to epitestosterone ratio past 6:1... that's the testosterone limit by the ncaa, natural or unnatural. I wouldn't risk trying out the AI category either, nothing is specifically listed but still might come as a positive.

the group that does the ncaa testing for football is the national center for drug free sport. i believe they hand off the samples to the NCAA testers. they have a way to contact them, you can ask about any supplements or medicines.

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the login password for NCAA division 1 is ncaa1. i think its ncaa2 and ncaa3 for div. 2 and 3, respectively.

I contacted these guys, they basically told me that massfx had no specifically banned substances in it. yeah, thanks, i checked the list myself. and they said they were conducting research on hyperdrolX2, so no help there. I would go straight to an athletic trainer/team doctor with the supplement information. if you're still not sure about that, cross your fingers that you don't get tested...

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Thanks a ton! Def gonna shy away from hyperdrol since it is an AI. As far as mass fx goes, im gonna get in contact with someone in the NCAA and see if any of the ingredients are banned.

At the moment im not competing. I just like to use what legal and illegal as a guideline to what i can use and not use. Basically im trying to build a very strong knowledge base.

I do plan however to start competing in maybe a year and half or two so i can build up to some decent lift stats.

 

[buster0371]

doesnt 6 bromo cause some very little suppression?

 

[pump3d]

6-bromo will probably cause a positive just for its similarity to things that are banned

 

[thesinner]

6-bromo will probably cause a positive just for its similarity to things that are banned

There's the similarities and then there's the risk of a false positive from taking test boosters.

If you are being tested for steroids, don't go heavy on natural test boosters, as they might cause unnaturally high test levels. If that makes sense.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

I thought natural test boosters keep you in range of natural levels....how do they go above that?

 

[thesinner]

I thought natural test boosters keep you in range of natural levels....how do they go above that?

Keep you in range of natural test levels? What does that even mean? These are your natural test levels.

If you can't push the limits on your testosterone production, what the hell would be the point of taking a test booster? Test boosters increase your testosterone levels above nomral. If they push it so far above normal, they will show a false positive for steroids.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Very simple...a natural range of testosterone is any level between 300-750 ng/dl. Depending on the source these numbers will vary ( meaning the low can be 400 and the high can be 800-1000 but a good measuring stick is to be between 400-700).

My thought was that natural test boosters will keep you at levels of 700 or above, but not reaching anything over natural "high" ranges since the natural male HPTA axis will shut down test production at a certain level. The ONLY WAY to override this is to have actual testosterone injected or supplemented trandermally or orally to put you over these levels which at that point will begin to compromise your HPTA axis.

Such test boosters which optimize LH will "naturally" allow high levels of test but the body will shut down your own test production due to the negative feedback mechanism of the HPTA axis. Continuing to take the test boosters..i thought will trigger your body to be able to maintain these heightened levels without compromising the process. Kinda like putting gas in a car or oil...the more gas you have the longer you can drive you car. If you car always has gas then you can keep driving.


In my eyes the point would be to continue those amazing gains one will experience early on in puberty and the height of test production. Also clinical trials have shown overtraining can cause low levels of test. A test booster in theory will allow an individual to train harder while maintaing normal levels.

But again im still very new to supplements beyond understand the biological mechanism of the basics and how natural test is produces sans supplementation.


Besides that I believe after further research i will shy away from massfx and hyperdrol. I want to look into non-hormonals. I hear prime and powerfull are 2 options. Maybe when im older and my test begins to decline, ill look into a cycle of massfx and hyp x2.

 

[thesinner]

Not quite.

You are not taking into account how LH is being increased. I think you might be confusing test boosters with steroids, as steroids cause negative feedback, not test boosters.

For example, an AI reduces estrogen receptor activation in the hypothalamus, this upregulates the HPTA. The process here is positive feedback, not negative feedback. This increases production of LH, FSH, and gonadotropins, therefore increasing testosterone and androgens levels. The lacking enzyme makes the body less able to produce estrogens, and the positive feedback system propagates until a new steady state condition is met. Basically, you keep producing testosterone until your estrogen levels get back to normal. If a person is around the upper bound, 1100ng/dL, without a doubt the users test levels will show a false positive.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Interesting...

I believe i made myself unclear, i was talking about without any supplementation, the HPTA axis will undergo negative feedback.

The Hypothalamus will release GnRH to the Anterior Pituatary which releases LH to the gonads and test is made within the sertolli cells. When a certain amount of test is circulating the hypothalamus will cease release of GnRH halting the axis(this occurs naturally without the use of any supplementation).

Now for the part i am still slightly confused...you say an AI will plug into the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus(or reduce the receptor activity...by what means i am unsure). Two questions:

1) Not only was i unaware of these estrogen receptors found within the hypothalamus but i believe only testosterone receptors effect the HPTA output. To my knowledge testosterone can be converted to estrogen within the hypothalamus but this does not in any way suppress or modulate the HPTA axis ( study done by R. J. Santen J Clin Invest. 1975 December; 56(6): 1555–1563 to state a primary reference). So my question...how does the binding to estrogen receptors or downregulation of said receptors upregulate LH and testosterone within the hypothalamus?

2) I was under the impression AI prevent the conversion to estrogen allowing a higher ratio of T to E, which increases the bioavailability of T when mixed with a SHBG(i believe) to free bound T...is this not the case?

Now what i am now finding fascinating is that ones body can continue to over produce T naturally without triggering the receptor found within the hypothalamus...this is still puzzling me. Im sorry if im missing something ridiculously obvious. Post finals and my brains be fried.

 

[thesinner]

Interesting...

I believe i made myself unclear, i was talking about without any supplementation, the HPTA axis will undergo negative feedback.

Without any supplementation the HPTA is at semi-steady state conditions: there is no positive or negative feedback. If you didn't take anything, and experienced negative feedback, you would up and stop producing testosterone.

The Hypothalamus will release GnRH to the Anterior Pituatary which releases LH to the gonads and test is made within the sertolli cells. When a certain amount of test is circulating the hypothalamus will cease release of GnRH halting the axis(this occurs naturally without the use of any supplementation).

Now for the part i am still slightly confused...you say an AI will plug into the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus(or reduce the receptor activity...by what means i am unsure). Two questions:

1) Not only was i unaware of these estrogen receptors found within the hypothalamus but i believe only testosterone receptors effect the HPTA output. To my knowledge testosterone can be converted to estrogen within the hypothalamus but this does not in any way suppress or modulate the HPTA axis ( study done by R. J. Santen J Clin Invest. 1975 December; 56(6): 1555–1563 to state a primary reference). So my question...how does the binding to estrogen receptors or downregulation of said receptors upregulate LH and testosterone within the hypothalamus?

An AI is an acronym for aromatase inhibitor. This is an enzyme which converts an androgen into an estrogen. It does not bind to the estrogen receptors.

You've taken this study out of context. It compares aromatizable testosterone to DHT on HPTA response. Re-read the second-to-last paragraph of the abstract, where it states estrogen is responsible for diminishing LH-RH responsiveness from the pituitary gland. Also see references 1 thru 9, which suggest what I spoke of earlier.

All in all, this is still somewhat arbitrary to the central argument of our little debate. You've concluded that a natural testosterone booster won't cause a false positive because of negative feedback. I will agree that a control system is in progress, but when you take a compound which modulates the characteristics of said control system, it is quite difficult to make the assumption that we have the same cut-off limits. You seem to still be thinking that the increased testosterone production is occuring independent of the HPTA, and this is not the case.
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2) I was under the impression AI prevent the conversion to estrogen allowing a higher ratio of T to E, which increases the bioavailability of T when mixed with a SHBG(i believe) to free bound T...is this not the case?

The ratio modulation is one piece of the pie, but it's certainly been shown that they also upregulate HPTA through the mechanism I've explained.

SHBG binds to T, not free it. I think you might be referring to a product like MassFX? This product contains constituents, which bind to this protein, allowing for an increase in free testosterone.

Now what i am now finding fascinating is that ones body can continue to over produce T naturally without triggering the receptor found within the hypothalamus...this is still puzzling me. Im sorry if im missing something ridiculously obvious. Post finals and my brains be fried.

I guess I wasn't clear in my last post.

The test booster upregulates test production UNTIL it triggers the receptors needed to cause this negative feedback. In order to get to that point, with a test booster, your testosterone levels need to be higher.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Ok...so much more clear! I did mis-read the article, i went back and re-read it and i was completely wrong (shouldnt post replies after staying up all night).

Thank you very much i believe you answered my questions quite effectively.

Without any supplementation the HPTA is at semi-steady state conditions: there is no positive or negative feedback. If you didn't take anything, and experienced negative feedback, you would up and stop producing testosterone.
.

This is the only thing i will disagree with. There is negative feedback which you acknowledged in the last paragraph of your post, so i guess im beating a dead horse. If there was no negative feedback we would have unregulated T production and supplementation would be ridiculously ineffective.


But, back to the original point...thank you.

 

[thesinner]

This is the only thing i will disagree with. There is negative feedback which you acknowledged in the last paragraph of your post, so i guess im beating a dead horse. If there was no negative feedback we would have unregulated T production and supplementation would be ridiculously ineffective.


But, back to the original point...thank you.

I think perhaps you are having trouble understanding what is meant by negative feedback.

The endocrine system is a control system. There's two types of controllers: feed forward and feed backward. A sensor is placed to measure something either before the process (feed forward) or after the process (feed backward). This information is sent to a comparator (feedback) If parameters are low, positive-feedback. If parameters are high, negative-feedback. From the comparator, an action is done to affect the outcome of the controlled process(response). One thing to keep in mind is the time it takes to generate a response (response time). High response times will lead to a period where the system goes out of control, either low or high, which is leading to the pulsated production of testosterone throughout the day.

In the case of the hypothalamus, we are talking about a feed backward system. The sensor here is sensing estrogen levels, when a certain amount of estrogen is sensed, a certain amount of testosterone production is suppressed. If we take something that lowers aromatase concentrations (the enzyme which converts androgens to estrogens), we are able to tweak the control system.

Understand that chemical reactions are controlled by concentration. Things in the [] are to refer to concentration.

[Estro] = K[Test][Aromatase] ; where K is a second order reaction rate constant.

In order to get the same "cut-off" point, or point where the negative feedback allows for the maximal testosterone concentration, we need the same amount of estrogen, if we weren't taking the AI. In order to get this same amount of estrogen, we need more testosterone. Therefore, test levels are increasing to a point beyond where your body typically allows.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Spoken like a professor. I completely agree with you and i was unsure if thats what u were saying.

More commonly when someone speaks of negative and positive feedback i dont know if they know of feed forward and feed backward. You science is solid my friend. Thank you for clearing things up for me! Exactly why i joined this site.