MANSports PF3: what to look for. compiled testimony

thescience said:
ok, so if you took a magic supplement that made you bench an extra 200lbs consistantly year in year out as long as you took it


and nobody else saw that effect when they took it


and there was no literature besides that indicating it is safe, would you stop taking it and deny any claim that it has benefit?
Click to expand...

There are real-world scenarios, and then there is fantasy. What you just laid out is fantasy. In the real world, placebo is comparable to real drug effects.
 
thescience said:
1) it has a molecular weight that's over 5x that of casein. upon its release, this will be the KING of slow-digesting protein. there is a ton of research on the benefits of casein over whey; having a constant trickle of amino's being absorbed improves protein synthesis.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily true. Amino acid levels must rise above previous levels to increase protein synthesis. The studies of whey vs casein you've read are done on a 10 hour fast. That's the main reason casein increased protein synthesis as much as it did. Casein is better at reducing protein catabolism than increasing protein synthesis. In normal conditions, eating every ~3 hours, whey becomes superior for muscle building because casein just couldn't increase amino acid levels above the last meals levels. Casein would be best for muscle preservation during a cut(and before bed).
 
Piston Honda said:
We hope everyone applying is patient as we build for the product's reveal. We appreciate everyone's interest and we totally understand how/why everyone is so inquisitive! We're just not at liberty to reveal anything quite yet.
Click to expand...

Invalid Link Removed Honda is that some fancy outfit you are have there. Is available for everyone too for buy one on the google?
 
Vengeance187 said:
Not necessarily true. Amino acid levels must rise above previous levels to increase protein synthesis. The studies of whey vs casein you've read are done on a 10 hour fast. That's the main reason casein increased protein synthesis as much as it did. Casein is better at reducing protein catabolism than increasing protein synthesis. In normal conditions, eating every ~3 hours, whey becomes superior for muscle building because casein just couldn't increase amino acid levels above the last meals levels. Casein would be best for muscle preservation during a cut(and before bed).
Click to expand...

Spot-on. More on that to come for those who are PES insiders

Casein may create a greater nitrogen retention effect, but whey creates plasma amino acid spikes, chiefly leucine, that spike MPS.
 
Exciting too I think The Solution some time off may take from busy schedule for designing especially PES delicious new creation recipes!
 
Vengeance187 said:
Not necessarily true. Amino acid levels must rise above previous levels to increase protein synthesis. The studies of whey vs casein you've read are done on a 10 hour fast. That's the main reason casein increased protein synthesis as much as it did. Casein is better at reducing protein catabolism than increasing protein synthesis. In normal conditions, eating every ~3 hours, whey becomes superior for muscle building because casein just couldn't increase amino acid levels above the last meals levels. Casein would be best for muscle preservation during a cut(and before bed).
Click to expand...

sure. I took a hydrolyzed whey for a long time, but I read a lot of stuff that said its gone after like an hour. I think that's why ive seen such a dramatic difference when I switched to casein, as I wasn't pumping in more hydrolyzed when every 2 hours
 
mr.cooper69 said:
There are real-world scenarios, and then there is fantasy. What you just laid out is fantasy. In the real world, placebo is comparable to real drug effects.
Click to expand...

well, its a hypothetical scenario. I take it you would acknowledge efficacy in that scenario, as absurd as it is. I don't doubt the potential for placebo, but I don't think its this all-governing factor either; plenty of times people though a supplement was going to be the best thing ever, and then it didn't do anything; where was their placebo?. there have been a few times when I thought some supps had something going on, but over time I never saw my weights go up. if placebo was consistently the force its made to sound here, people wouldn't need supplements that work. I just cant see throwing any personal observation out the window, and the labs are missing out on something by so doing; for example, what if a study was done on a product's endurance where the participants checked in every day for tests. those tests can measure various parameters for any increased endurance, but they may overlook the fact that the participants went home, and with newfound endurance, performed physical feets beyond anything they've ever done, so much so that their test the next day show they are more worn out instead of less. anyone running that lab would be a fool to discount that information, SINCE THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A COMPLETELY CONTROLLED SETTING. I know that user testimony is ripe for abuse, but studies are ripe for it also, besides being narrow in scope often.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Shall I retrieve one showing increased focus from glycerol monostearate (a saturated fat...no I'm not kidding, it's a BB.com review).
Click to expand...

focus is such a broad word, and not everybody uses it in the way intended with a substance. for example, a person may find they are sticking with their workout, being better hydrated, and consequently feel that they are not straying from their focus. I can find just as many twisted studies, like the one that just came out about fish oil increasing risk of prostate cancer, as if the subjects were completely isolated from pollution and the million other carcinogenic factors out there.
 
All these new Protein choices. Usplabs, PES, MAN... My head may explode. I still chuckle when I see dudes wearing size S holister shirts walking through Walmart with Walmart protein..

Ok back to the peeing contest
 
Still wish GF-Pro was still around. The plasma/isolate blend was the best ever made, plus it had great flavor.
 
De__eB said:
Hey thescience, I've got a magic supplement that adds 200 lbs to my bench, and I'll sell it to you for $50/month with no data whatsoever to back it and in fact there are several studies saying it can't possibly work the way I'm claiming it does, I expect you to fully support my innovative product and pay me money because that's how you roll.

And that's where your logical path meets its fateful end.
Click to expand...

come on guys, there's research. on release date, things will be made known. I would be interested in any such product; trying stuff out is my thing, though over the years ive learned to restrict my focuse to companies that have shown they make solid products, products with unique ingredients and products that have awesomely high extracts if im going to anticipate gains.
 
cjwav34 said:
I hope these weren't serious posts.
Click to expand...

dead serious. coops an interesting guy and I want to know where he stands. As someone who uses supplements, I hear about what effects people notice, and then I test those claims out for myself. bodybuilding has a long history of word of mouth and while we all know it isn't always accurate, like anything else, its still a piece of the puzzle. Look at all the supplements companies give away in beta-testing, all for the sake of hearing somebody's testimony.
 
thescience said:
sure. I took a hydrolyzed whey for a long time, but I read a lot of stuff that said its gone after like an hour.
Click to expand...
It's not gone in an hour, that's when it peaks.
thescience said:
I think that's why ive seen such a dramatic difference when I switched to casein, as I wasn't pumping in more hydrolyzed when every 2 hours
Click to expand...
I don't use whey as a meal replacement, I use it as a supplement. I eat real food an hour after whey. When casein is comparable to whole food in it's effects, and whey has supraphysiological effects that you couldn't get otherwise, which one seems like the better deal/option? If I want casein's effects, I will eat chicken...
 
Vengeance187 said:
It's not gone in an hour, that's when it peaks.I don't use whey as a meal replacement, I use it as a supplement. I eat real food an hour after whey. When casein is comparable to whole food in it's effects, and whey has supraphysiological effects that you couldn't get otherwise, which one seems like the better deal/option? If I want casein's effects, I will eat chicken...
Click to expand...

I hear that. I think people will always be working with a variety of proteins, and of course protein supps aren't supposed to replace food. since I started taking protein powder, I have noticed im able to get a lot more grams in per day, and that I eat less calories in a day without being hungry. I saw in some of the PF3 beta-tester reviews that they felt more satiated and less hungry than with just their usual protein powders
 
thescience said:
dead serious. coops an interesting guy and I want to know where he stands. As someone who uses supplements, I hear about what effects people notice, and then I test those claims out for myself. bodybuilding has a long history of word of mouth and while we all know it isn't always accurate, like anything else, its still a piece of the puzzle. Look at all the supplements companies give away in beta-testing, all for the sake of hearing somebody's testimony.
Click to expand...
What relevance does that have toward a CoA?

Beta-testing, word of mouth, and company promos are the worst way to get feedback. They all rely on anecdotal feedback which isn't reliable in the slightest. With company promos and beta testing you will more than likely get positive feedback regardless of the product's effectiveness since the user received it for free. Word of mouth, well that's how the term broscience was coined. Arginine and Glutamine still get touted around by word of mouth in every gym.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
I will take a lunch date with your employee allnatural as a substitute however
Click to expand...

Coop, first nice to see you as always, you'll have to stop by the shop on a Monday if possible, only day I'm in there now :(

PM me for my email/contact info :)
 
cjwav34 said:
What relevance does that have toward a CoA?

Beta-testing, word of mouth, and company promos are the worst way to get feedback. They all rely on anecdotal feedback which isn't reliable in the slightest. With company promos and beta testing you will more than likely get positive feedback regardless of the product's effectiveness since the user received it for free. Word of mouth, well that's how the term broscience was coined. Arginine and Glutamine still get touted around by word of mouth in every gym.
Click to expand...

I know what youre saying. trust can be abused, and that's why big studies exist. I also think skepticism against it can be overblown by labrats who want a monopoly in the game. the fact is, user testimony is admissible in a court of law, and theres a process involving going to a notary public to create that testimony for files that can keep products safe from undue scrutiny by the sponsored scientific community. I CANT IMAGINE any rep from any company telling me my user testimony is worthless were I to post a statement about how much I loved their product; on the contrary, it's encouraged because that form of knowledge has credence with consumers who just want to find out for themselves. again, I value all the literature and tests I can get, but its not like any study proving something is going to work is a guarantee that it will when you take it; there are just more variables at play than a "controlled" setting can ever take into account at this point in time.

personnaly, I love hearing about how people react to products. I don't dismiss what they say, necessarily. on the contrary, I use the claims as a thesis that I can then prove or disprove.

arginine akg is awesome, and it deserves to be raved about for all time even if it may not do everything it was originally thought to.

when I look at PF3 reviews, I see people reporting every kind of benefit a bodybuilder could ask for.
 
I noticed nothing from PF3
 
thescience said:
I know what youre saying. trust can be abused, and that's why big studies exist. I also think skepticism against it can be overblown by labrats who want a monopoly in the game. the fact is, user testimony is admissible in a court of law, and theres a process involving going to a notary public to create that testimony for files that can keep products safe from undue scrutiny by the sponsored scientific community. I CANT IMAGINE any rep from any company telling me my user testimony is worthless were I to post a statement about how much I loved their product; on the contrary, it's encouraged because that form of knowledge has credence with consumers who just want to find out for themselves. again, I value all the literature and tests I can get, but its not like any study proving something is going to work is a guarantee that it will when you take it; there are just more variables at play than a "controlled" setting can ever take into account at this point in time.

personnaly, I love hearing about how people react to products. I don't dismiss what they say, necessarily. on the contrary, I use the claims as a thesis that I can then prove or disprove.

arginine akg is awesome, and it deserves to be raved about for all time even if it may not do everything it was originally thought to.

when I look at PF3 reviews, I see people reporting every kind of benefit a bodybuilder could ask for.
Click to expand...

You still haven't said how giving away free product has relevance to a CoA.
 
cjwav34 said:
You still haven't said how giving away free product has relevance to a CoA.
Click to expand...

well, nothings free in the case of beta-testers. people have to work to make logs for a supplement just like people who get money to perform studies. i only brought the CoA vs free tub up to coop because I know I would have chosen to take a free product over some words describing it in a CoA, provided I knew it was safe (which i do). .i totally value seeing the CoA of any product, but due to issues with competition, having a CoA go public is not always a good idea business-wise, especially before a launch. With or without a CoA, i advocate getting all the information we can, including testimony
 
thescience said:
well, nothings free in the case of beta-testers. people have to work to make logs for a supplement just like people who get money to perform studies. i only brought the CoA vs free tub up to coop because I know I would have chosen to take a free product over some words describing it in a CoA, provided I knew it was safe (which i do). .i totally value seeing the CoA of any product, but due to issues with competition, having a CoA go public is not always a good idea business-wise, especially before a launch. With or without a CoA, i advocate getting all the information we can, including testimony
Click to expand...

wut
 
Why are you even talking about CoAs when nobody is asking for one?

People want evidence that it works.

Not comments about what IGF-1 does in the body endogenously.

Not comments about what injected IGF-1 does in the body.

Information about how MAN Sports is proposing to make IGF-1 active by oral consumption however, I'm sure people would be interested in that.
 
Information about how MAN Sports is proposing to make IGF-1 active by oral consumption however, I'm sure people would be interested in that.
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]

that is definately an awesome question. for starters, i think alot of campanies mention they have IGF in their product because its there and its like garnish, but There are people who want to know about IGF content because they already spend alot of money on oral OTC IGF that they let sit in their mouth for sublingual absorption.
 
De__eB said:
Responding to the inquiry by driveling on about it in post after post, even in responding to posts that have nothing to do with that?
Click to expand...

well, i write what i write because people, myself included, dont read the whole thread. if they did, they wouldnt make statements indicating that nobody has asked for a CoA/ingredient specifics from me
 
thescience said:
that is definately an awesome question. for starters, i think alot of campanies mention they have IGF in their product because its there and its like garnish, but There are people who want to know about IGF content because they already spend alot of money on oral OTC IGF that they let sit in their mouth for sublingual absorption.
Click to expand...

Again with the saying a lot but not actually saying anything.

Claims and sponsored logs have absolutely no credibility when nobody from the company is willing to offer even the slightest shred of a MOA for how the supplement works.
 
thescience said:
well, i write what i write because people dont read the whole thread ive learned. if they did, they wouldnt make statements indicating that nobody has asked for a CoA from me
Click to expand...

Nobody asked for a COA. You offered the supposed choice of anecdotal results or a CoA 3 months down the road as part of a post distracting from any discussion about how the product is actually supposed to work.

You throwing something out there is not someone asking you for it.
 
thescience said:
let me clarify; we are talking about a unique extraction that other companies havent thought to make. that is the only reason for the mystery.
Click to expand...

Uh, bovine protein and oral peptides that have 0 effect?
 
De__eB said:
Nobody asked for a COA. You offered the supposed choice of anecdotal results or a CoA 3 months down the road as part of a post distracting from any discussion about how the product is actually supposed to work.

You throwing something out there is not someone asking you for it.
Click to expand...


I don't expect anyone to pour through the backpages of a thread, so of course im happy to address anyone's questions whether they read the whole thread or not: Here are some examples of people looking for compound and profile information (as listed specifically in a CoA) from this very thread:

Serious though, hit me up when the profile is released. I keep getting lured into these threads expecting to finally see it and leaving disappointed
Click to expand...

I need a label. Compound, dose, and directions!
Click to expand...

somebody even told me they would rather have the CoA over an actual product on page 4!
People are very curious about CoA's. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be!
 
This feels like I am watching a group of lions circling an injured antelope lol.

We all know they ARE going to attack. It is just a case of when.
 
bdcc said:
This feels like I am watching a group of lions circling an injured antelope lol.

We all know they ARE going to attack. It is just a case of when.
Click to expand...

I seriously love the critical thought guys. it is always welcome. its because of people smart enough to question things that company's are now releasing such great an innovative things
 
thescience said:
were you a beta-tester (taking a VERY Large dose of Pf3 per serving) or are you referring to the 500mg dose found in Game Day?

if you were a beta tester, could you refer me to your logs? I would love to read them!
Click to expand...

You'd hate my log, since I am a company rep on another forum, I cannot say anything negative. So I told Ray, like I do for everything, I would run it for 2 weeks, than fill in the gaps. Never got to that point because it was all negative, the only thing I got out of it was a ****ty tasting protein shake.

Much to my surprise, nothing happened. I did not look like Ronnie Coleman, my gonads did not shrink, blood pressure was fine, I gained 0 lean mass. (sarcasm)

But, you really cant expect anything from oral peptides, because they don't do anything except lighten your wallet

Change your username to something a little more fitting, maybe TheShilling or something along those lines.
 
thescience said:
of course im happy to address anyone's questions whether they read the whole thread or not: Here are some examples of people looking for compound and profile information from this very thread:

somebody even told me they would rather have the CoA over an actual product on page 4!
People are very curious about CoA's. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be!
Click to expand...

A COA has nothing to do with the supplement facts label that people are asking for. A COA just says that the product was tested and contains what it claims to contain.

It's funny how the discussions on PF3 are strikingly similar to threads about another recent 'Game Changer' that overpromises and underdelivers

Are you ready to bring the science yet or is your username supposed to be ironic?
 
De__eB said:
A COA has nothing to do with the supplement facts label that people are asking for. A COA just says that the product was tested and contains what it claims to contain.

It's funny how the discussions on PF3 are strikingly similar to threads about another recent 'Game Changer' that overpromises and underdelivers

Are you ready to bring the science yet or is your username supposed to be ironic?
Click to expand...

To just focus on label/ingredients: I respect all sides of the topic being discussed in this thread. Just a reminder that label details will only be given out upon product launch. That comes straight from the top. All sides of the topic until then are conjecture and opinion. As Lionel Hutz from The Simpsons would say, "those are types of evidence!" Lol
 
thescience look dude you're arguing with individuals whose sole purpose in life is science. You're fighting a never ending battle. Once ingredients come out they can and WILL dissect the **** out of it based on science for better or worse.

I'm in agreement with you that anecdote is important. Personal anecdote is an extremely important PART of the puzzle but "scientific" minds can and never will be able to understand nor will they admit that anything is even close to as important as their studies. It's not really a fault of their own it's just how they work. There are faults with anecdote and science. The pharmaceutical industry is based on scientific studies yet pharmaceuticals KILL people or put them in the hospital frequently and are influenced by placebo as well.

IMO narrow minded science ONLY type of thinking greatly limits people. Science is a tool to see what has promising results and what could be worth while for a person to try as an individual. After all, just because something worked in a study doesn't mean it will do anything for each person as an individual. People need to (like the pharmaceutical industry) use these scientific minds for what they offer - information. Their opinion despite their beliefs, due to being scientific minded, are NOT the end all be all to anything. Take the information provided, research a bit more, pay attention to the ANECDOTE (very helpful) and decide for yourself if you think it would work for YOU.

That being said this thread has been arguing about a supplement based purely on speculation. Going back and forth with scientific minds about the science of ingredients that haven't even been released is only providing a venue for people to say wait until OUR newsletter comes out for the real "science" which IMO takes away from what this product is about. To me it seems as if this product is trying to branch out and bring an innovative product in an otherwise saturated market with the same blends etc. If a company such as MAN with a great reputation of a supplement line is bringing something out like this and trying to innovate that's good news for the industry. However, if it fails to deliver that could be a pretty big downfall for a company. MAN knows that and based on reputation alone should say a lot for a company.
 
After we have the product details can we expect PES to come out with a "similar" product in a few months? Taking a page out of MAN's playbook ;) Maybe that's why coop wants to see the label soooo badly ;)

Just curious . . .
 
boogerboy said:
After we have the product details can we expect PES to come out with a "similar" product in a few months? Taking a page out of MAN's playbook ;) Maybe that's why coop wants to see the label soooo badly ;)

Just curious . . .
Click to expand...

Spaniard said:
thescience

MAN knows that and based on reputation alone should say a lot for a company.
Click to expand...


nice on the posting brotatoes
 
boogerboy said:
After we have the product details can we expect PES to come out with a "similar" product in a few months? Taking a page out of MAN's playbook ;) Maybe that's why coop wants to see the label soooo badly ;)

Just curious . . .
Click to expand...

Touey said:
nice on the posting brotatoes
Click to expand...

That's how the supplement industry works fellas. As a matter of fact, that's how all industries work. That's how smart and profitable companies make money. They see demand for an ingredient, they use said ingredient to make money - business 101.

Sharp introduced the first LCD TV to the commercial market. Do you have a Sharp LCD TV or are you a sellout and own a Samsung, Vizio, LG...?
 
boogerboy said:
After we have the product details can we expect PES to come out with a "similar" product in a few months? Taking a page out of MAN's playbook ;) Maybe that's why coop wants to see the label soooo badly ;)

Just curious . . .
Click to expand...

Spaniard said:
That's how the supplement industry works fellas. As a matter of fact, that's how all industries work. That's how smart and profitable companies make money. They see demand for an ingredient, they use said ingredient to make money - business 101.

Sharp introduced the first LCD TV to the commercial market. Do you have a Sharp LCD TV or are you a sellout and own a Samsung, Vizio, LG...?
Click to expand...

Yes Spaniard coop is needing for school on sup. 101... & was thinking Italy was behind on some times I ya ya..
 
The guy who put creatine in a formula first for example. How does he feel seeing it in everything released since? Then again, you have the Thermolife DAA case too...

A bit off track, but good food for thought Spaniard!
 
Touey said:
Yes Spaniard coop is needing for school on sup. 101... & was thinking Italy was behind on some times I ya ya..
Click to expand...

Another brilliant post. Please keep them coming
 
Touey said:
Yes Spaniard coop is needing for school on sup. 101... & was thinking Italy was behind on some times I ya ya..
Click to expand...

I have zero idea what you're saying here. Your admiration for Coop is adorable lol but I wasn't talking to Coop. I was commenting on what boogerboy posted. Coop has been in the supplement industry longer than I have been and is fully aware of how it works.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top