M - Sten vs Epistane (Experiences?)

Romasz

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I have been looking into both of the compounds and it seems that M-Sten will be better for mass gains, but epistane for strength gains?

Looking to put on noticeable mass and a bit of vascularity as i’m already very lean, this would be my first cycle and i was going to stack one of the two with Alpha Four as the base.

Just wondering your insight on both of them!
 

Jstrong20

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epistane for sure. I like msten but a lot of people feel like **** in it. Both will build muscle and strength well. They don’t blow you up with glycogen and water but the plus side is you don’t deflate when you come off. What you gain is close to what you keep. If it’s your first time messing with anabolics no reason you couldn’t put on and keep 10lbs with a six week epistane run.
 
Ironpirate

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They are actually very similar, you could bulk or cut with either it just depends on your routine. I think epistane is better for max strength on cycle.
 
Smont

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It really depends, some ppl get nothing from epistane, others blow up on it. Most ppl just get leaner and stronger with a little size. Diet is going to be very depending for the outcome. Msten I feel completely fine on but I need 30mg a day minium to get something out of it. 40-50mg it's very strong but becomes very expensive. I think it 50mg it's on par with 50mg anadrol. But at almost twice the price.

In general I think you would have similar results with either at 30mg a day
 
Iwilleattuna

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I haven't tried either, but I'd go with epistane. It seems awesome

Some love or hate msten. Judging by reports of toxicity and certain sides, I'm turned off by it.
 
Smont

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I haven't tried either, but I'd go with epistane. It seems awesome

Some love or hate msten. Judging by reports of toxicity and certain sides, I'm turned off by it.
I know these things are "toxic" to a degree, but I really don't think that's what makes ppl feel crappy. I don't know exactly what it is tho. The toxicity is exaggerated. For a example you could eat a whole bottle of dbol in a day and your probably gonna throw up and feel horrible but you will be ok, it's not gonna kill you. But if you ate a bottle of extra strength Tylenol, you WILL die. The dosing protocol "medical field" for anadrol for a 100lb child with anadrol starts at 100mg and can go up to 300mg a day for 6 months at a time. They don't die lol. I don't know what makes some people feel horrible on on these 3-4 week oral cycles but don't think it's toxicity
 
Smont

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Even with superdrol the beta testers ran up to 50mg a day for 4 weeks and we had guys post there bloodwork on this forum and liver enzymes were barely out of range for some ppl
 
Iwilleattuna

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@Smont i agree with you on the liver related sides 100% , but what about Possible kidney toxicity ?

Way more afraid of alcohol and Tylenol tbh
 
Smont

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@Smont i agree with you on the liver related sides 100% , but what about Possible kidney toxicity ?

Way more afraid of alcohol and Tylenol tbh
Definitely don't think it's kidneys either. Kidney issues come long term and accumulative damage. Most kidney problems in the bodybuilding world come from years of high blood pressure. And again. If it immediately caused kidney problems, how would children survive 6months on anadrol and monster doses.

I'm not saying I'm right, it just doesn't make sense for the kidneys or liver to be the reason. Some guys take a oral and in a week they feel like total garbage. Oral steroids aren't going to give you toxic liver or kidney problems in a matter of days like that. Again, I have no clue what the culprit is. I just highly doubt it's there body going toxic
 
Iwilleattuna

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Definitely don't think it's kidneys either. Kidney issues come long term and accumulative damage. Most kidney problems in the bodybuilding world come from years of high blood pressure. And again. If it immediately caused kidney problems, how would children survive 6months on anadrol and monster doses.

I'm not saying I'm right, it just doesn't make sense for the kidneys or liver to be the reason. Some guys take a oral and in a week they feel like total garbage. Oral steroids aren't going to give you toxic liver or kidney problems in a matter of days like that. Again, I have no clue what the culprit is. I just highly doubt it's there body going toxic
Okay , totally agree and it’s all about being responsible. Although There’s a bodybuilder who is 60 and still blasting hard along with harsh ore contest Protocol aka diuretics, etc . You just read all online and question. Also, the fitness “influencers” demonizing aas now by reading a few animal studies.

But yeah, I more so mean the feeling of lethargy, digestive distress, etc.

It’s about personal response too. One guy may take low dose var, wrecks his lipids and other values + feels absolutely horrible but then tries high dose superdrol.... feels great , blood work looks good and gets great results
 
Iwilleattuna

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@Smont oh and btw, that 60 year old I mention still looks like he’s in his high 30s-40s and incredibly jacked. Just placed first at his show
 

Rich Tits

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FWIW:

 
Smont

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@Smont oh and btw, that 60 year old I mention still looks like he’s in his high 30s-40s and incredibly jacked. Just placed first at his show
That's incredible, some people defy the laws of nature. Look at Dexter Jackson. Last year he was standing on the Olympia stage at 50 years old and was still in the mix with all the top guys. He could probably come off everything but trt and still place in lower weight classes for another 10 years
 
Smont

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FWIW:

It's nonsense
 
Smont

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FWIW:

If you look hard enough you could find studies that say a few diet sodas gave someone cancer, someone died from drinking protein shakes. There all out there.

Steroids made Chris Benoit kill his family, but the brain damage from the 16 concussions or 3 types of antidepressants had nothing to do with it.


Take stuff like that with a grain of salt brotha
 
Iwilleattuna

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That's incredible, some people defy the laws of nature. Look at Dexter Jackson. Last year he was standing on the Olympia stage at 50 years old and was still in the mix with all the top guys. He could probably come off everything but trt and still place in lower weight classes for another 10 years
Truly is and that’s who he reminds me of.

Also you mention the anadrol study in children. I’ve seen similar if anavar being used up to 4 years in women and children without any masculinization or negative sides. People say “well, the dose was so low” well, 2.5 - 5mg is like 20-80mg of anavar for women in children

Guess it’s a business to just demonize the stuff lol so people come to you for trt or coaching help
 
Smont

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Truly is and that’s who he reminds me of.

Also you mention the anadrol study in children. I’ve seen similar if anavar being used up to 4 years in women and children without any masculinization or negative sides. People say “well, the dose was so low” well, 2.5 - 5mg is like 20-80mg of anavar for women in children

Guess it’s a business to just demonize the stuff lol so people come to you for trt or coaching help
It's the in thing on YouTube right now to demonize everything, and the reason why is you take a guy with 1mill subs and probably 10k of them work out and use steroids, the rest are either natty or don't work out at all. Even outside of bodybuilding and steroids it's like this. More and more ppl are living there lives through a computer and the internet, not doing anything in real life, looking for things to complain about or act like there part of a special club or group "woke culture" lol.... And people are catering to that with there "information".
 
Iwilleattuna

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It's the in thing on YouTube right now to demonize everything, and the reason why is you take a guy with 1mill subs and probably 10k of them work out and use steroids, the rest are either natty or don't work out at all. Even outside of bodybuilding and steroids it's like this. More and more ppl are living there lives through a computer and the internet, not doing anything in real life, looking for things to complain about or act like there part of a special club or group "woke culture" lol.... And people are catering to that with there "information".
Took the words right out of my mouth. It’s like that bodybuilder I mentioned. This is REAL life experience, not just sitting on the internet or on a keyboard spouting nonsense. No one talks in person anymore I guess or makes connections 🤷‍♂️ Ask the Internet about tren sides and you’ll get a laundry list of them. Ask a bodybuilder in real life who doesn’t browse the Internet and you may get 0-3

That comes into question how much is placebo ?!? Lmao
 
Smont

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Mpmd, and I like his channel, I like how he dissects everything and does all the research, but he's falling into that category more every day. You know he's not practicing what he preaches and he's not on 100mg test or doing the things he says in the studies lol. Same with Greg d. There both full of ****, and I don't care, I can see through it and still enjoy there content. I get it, you gotta make that money and the most money is made by appealing to the masses
 
Nac

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I thought the in-thing for influencers was to "admit" that they actually do take steronz, but it's "just TRT".

Lol

Anyway, personally, I could give a fuk if some dude is on steronz. I agree it's kinda bullsh1t if he is a big mutha fuka like Ohearn and claims he isn't but is, but the current obsession with natty-or-nots is ridiculous. It's the borderline guys who I think "meh who cares", dudes like athleanX etc. If the person's natty-status has little bearing on their message or content, really why care.
 
Iwilleattuna

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Mpmd, and I like his channel, I like how he dissects everything and does all the research, but he's falling into that category more every day. You know he's not practicing what he preaches and he's not on 100mg test or doing the things he says in the studies lol. Same with Greg d. There both full of ****, and I don't care, I can see through it and still enjoy there content. I get it, you gotta make that money and the most money is made by appealing to the masses
Even if they are just in trt... it’s still aas and to say that aas in general didn’t get them to where they are today would be lying. So, why do they demonize it? More money and views while keeping the ones who watch more uneducated so they hire them or buy overpriced turkesterone

It’s like the cancer patient told they have 6 months to live . They decide to quit treatment and ignore what the doctor said and BELIEVE they will survive. They do and this happens a lot actually.

Vs

The dude thinking about doing a cycle watching and reading “you’ll die, your wife will leave you, you’ll have gyno, your kidneys will fail, your heart will fail and you may become a drug addict to other drugs.” Lol over over in your head you believe it.
 
Smont

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I thought the in-thing for influencers was to "admit" that they actually do take steronz, but it's "just TRT".

Lol

Anyway, personally, I could give a fuk if some dude is on steronz. I agree it's kinda bullsh1t if he is a big mutha fuka like Ohearn and claims he isn't but is, but the current obsession with natty-or-nots is ridiculous. It's the borderline guys who I think "meh who cares", dudes like athleanX etc. If the person's natty-status has little bearing on their message or content, really why care.
The natty or nots drive me nuts, I can't for the life of me understand why so many people are dieing to know what another persons opinion is on weather or not a 3rd person is natty or not.

I honestly think that a person being natural or not has nothing to do with anything. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who are not natty and still don't look like they ever touched a weight. A middle group where I put myself where you look like you work out and have pretty impressive strength especially relative to your bodyweight and a third group that looks like bodybuilders and freaks. All three are on the juice, but the freaks know how to be freaks because they eat, train and juice accordingly to there goals.

If Mike ohearn wants to say natty, I don't care. The dumbass that looks at him and can't tell, that's there own problem.

And if it's a young kid aspiring to look like him, maybe it will make them work that much harder for a few years before they open there eyes and see there's something more. At least they tried natty for a while instead of hopping straight on gear. If you look at it that way it's almost helpful to be a fake natty, cus the guys who think everyone is on the juice think that juice is all it takes to be a freak
 
Nac

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The natty or nots drive me nuts, I can't for the life of me understand why so many people are dieing to know what another persons opinion is on weather or not a 3rd person is natty or not.

I honestly think that a person being natural or not has nothing to do with anything. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who are not natty and still don't look like they ever touched a weight. A middle group where I put myself where you look like you work out and have pretty impressive strength especially relative to your bodyweight and a third group that looks like bodybuilders and freaks. All three are on the juice, but the freaks know how to be freaks because they eat, train and juice accordingly to there goals.

If Mike ohearn wants to say natty, I don't care. The dumbass that looks at him and can't tell, that's there own problem.

And if it's a young kid aspiring to look like him, maybe it will make them work that much harder for a few years before they open there eyes and see there's something more. At least they tried natty for a while instead of hopping straight on gear. If you look at it that way it's almost helpful to be a fake natty, cus the guys who think everyone is on the juice think that juice is all it takes to be a freak
I agree with all your points.
 
KvanH

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I'd rather go with Epistane for your first run. Can you get Halodrol? That would be my suggestion (if not looking to pin and no acces to ugl/pharma stuff).
 

UNX

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Epistane is the only roid that gives me cloudy urine and nothing more. M-sten feels stronger and somewhat toxic, but effective in lower doses. Right now I'm cutting on TRT and the one, with no sides. Mechabol is also a oral roid that gives me no sides.
Anyway, I avoid methylated orals, I'm running the one after a year without any oral. For bulking, I stick to oils only.
 
KvanH

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Epistane is the only roid that gives me cloudy urine and nothing more. M-sten feels stronger and somewhat toxic, but effective in lower doses. Right now I'm cutting on TRT and the one, with no sides. Mechabol is also a oral roid that gives me no sides.
Anyway, I avoid methylated orals, I'm running the one after a year without any oral. For bulking, I stick to oils only.
How are you liking The One and what dosage you running? I have a bottle of it waiting = )
 

UNX

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How are you liking The One and what dosage you running? I have a bottle of it waiting = )
First week at 75 mg/day and then 100 mg/day until I ran out, it will be a little more than 4 weeks. No sides so far, I'm looking for an aesthetic effect because my bf is quite low now. Scale goes up while being at deficit, I'm in the end of the second week. I just expect fuller muscles from it.
 
Smont

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I'd rather go with Epistane for your first run. Can you get Halodrol? That would be my suggestion (if not looking to pin and no acces to ugl/pharma stuff).
Hdrol is also my suggestion if you can find it. It's very versatile and the side effects for most people are pretty much non existent from 50-150mg a day. 75-100 being the sweet spot for most people.

As I'm sure you can see by everyone's mixed views on epistane and msten, the results and side effects can vary greatly from person to person.

At the end of the day, your not going to know anything till you try the product for yourself.
 
Romasz

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Hdrol is also my suggestion if you can find it. It's very versatile and the side effects for most people are pretty much non existent from 50-150mg a day. 75-100 being the sweet spot for most people.

As I'm sure you can see by everyone's mixed views on epistane and msten, the results and side effects can vary greatly from person to person.

At the end of the day, your not going to know anything till you try the product for yourself.
I appreciate this community so much,
i’ve decided i’m just gonna go on my run on Epi and call it a day also you guys made some really good points up there.

Derrick is falling off content wise trying to sell his Turkestrone to the masses as some type of end all natty supplement. You got so many people trying to keep their “natty” card while wasting so much money on useless natural supplements, he has some great information when you look pass all the marketing gimmicks etc.
 
ndiguy

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I utilized Msten @ 20mg for 6 weeks and really enjoyed it. Whereas I utilized Epistane at 30mg for 6 weeks and was pretty miserable. Can’t speculate as to why, but my body was NOT happy while on Epistane. Just my experience
 
Renew1

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Definitely don't think it's kidneys either. Kidney issues come long term and accumulative damage. Most kidney problems in the bodybuilding world come from years of high blood pressure. And again. If it immediately caused kidney problems, how would children survive 6months on anadrol and monster doses.

I'm not saying I'm right, it just doesn't make sense for the kidneys or liver to be the reason. Some guys take a oral and in a week they feel like total garbage. Oral steroids aren't going to give you toxic liver or kidney problems in a matter of days like that. Again, I have no clue what the culprit is. I just highly doubt it's there body going toxic
There's Definitely some toxicity going on.
Superdrol can turn your urine an awful color while it's making you feel crappy.
 
Renew1

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Took the words right out of my mouth. It’s like that bodybuilder I mentioned. This is REAL life experience, not just sitting on the internet or on a keyboard spouting nonsense. No one talks in person anymore I guess or makes connections 🤷‍♂️ Ask the Internet about tren sides and you’ll get a laundry list of them. Ask a bodybuilder in real life who doesn’t browse the Internet and you may get 0-3

That comes into question how much is placebo ?!? Lmao
Take 50mg a day of Sdrol for a month and come back and talk to me about placebo.
LOL
 

johnny412

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I utilized Msten @ 20mg for 6 weeks and really enjoyed it. Whereas I utilized Epistane at 30mg for 6 weeks and was pretty miserable. Can’t speculate as to why, but my body was NOT happy while on Epistane. Just my experience
results tho?
 
Smont

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I utilized Msten @ 20mg for 6 weeks and really enjoyed it. Whereas I utilized Epistane at 30mg for 6 weeks and was pretty miserable. Can’t speculate as to why, but my body was NOT happy while on Epistane. Just my experience
What did you run with the epistane, for some ppl it dramatically lowers estrogen. You could have crushed your e2 and that will make you feel miserable
 
ndiguy

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What did you run with the epistane, for some ppl it dramatically lowers estrogen. You could have crushed your e2 and that will make you feel miserable
I’m sure you’re right. both were utilized standalone, prior to ever injecting testosterone.
 
Iwilleattuna

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Take 50mg a day of Sdrol for a month and come back and talk to me about placebo.
LOL
I meant with responsible dosing. Obviously if you go extreme lol

I've seen some people mention that maybe lethargy has to do with being in an immediate anabolic state with orals
 
Renew1

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I meant with responsible dosing. Obviously if you go extreme lol

I've seen some people mention that maybe lethargy has to do with being in an immediate anabolic state with orals
Well, it's so strong .....

But SD checks off about half the boxes for liver stress.

Let's see.....
Dark urine, extreme lethargy/tiredness,
Ugh .. there was a couple more, but it's getting late ....
LOL
 

Jstrong20

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Mpmd, and I like his channel, I like how he dissects everything and does all the research, but he's falling into that category more every day. You know he's not practicing what he preaches and he's not on 100mg test or doing the things he says in the studies lol. Same with Greg d. There both full of ****, and I don't care, I can see through it and still enjoy there content. I get it, you gotta make that money and the most money is made by appealing to the masses
I actually believe Greg doucette is on trt doses. In my personal experience steroids or gaining a certain amount of mass changes you forever. I take months of at a time and one time must of been a year and people still would comment on my build. I also do a job where I hold a jackhammer up and hammer walls and celilings above me so that may help some. You could be right though but like you I don’t really care either way and find some of his videos amusing.
 
Smont

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I actually believe Greg doucette is on trt doses. In my personal experience steroids or gaining a certain amount of mass changes you forever. I take months of at a time and one time must of been a year and people still would comment on my build. I also do a job where I hold a jackhammer up and hammer walls and celilings above me so that may help some. You could be right though but like you I don’t really care either way and find some of his videos amusing.
Greg is holding about 25lbs of mass over his natty days and rides s bike 100miles a week or something like that which is about as counter productive as it gets for retaining muscle. Just about every pro that there has ever been as retired and the ones who don't keep cycling shrink back down to normal size within a year or 2. Greg looks almost identical to how he did when he was blasting gear or as he would say abusing it. So your telling me that he can look the same on 140mg of test while doing all this counterproductive biking as he did on test, tren, Winny and all the other stuff he listed in his cycles? What did he even use all the other stuff for?
Dexter Jackson who probably has some of the greatest genetics of all time just retired and within like 6 months he lost like 30lbs of muscle. When Dorian retired he lost almost 100lbs of muscle. even jay Cutler has downsized 30+lbs. But Greg can maintain 99% of his gains for years on trt........

It's not just unlikely, it's impossible he's only on his 120mg trt.

No1 on the planet can, has, or ever will maintain the muscle built on super physiological hormones with natural hormone levels. And a trt protocol puts you in natural range.

Now Greg is a smaller guy, if he said I'm using 300-400mg of testosterone and some gh as a beefed up sports trt to maintain then that would be feasible.
 
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Hyde

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I would mirror everyone’s general reactions to Epistane and Msten. Msten gives a bit more glycogen fullness, Epistane a bit more strength, Msten a tad more mass in the end.

I just wanted to comment that the strength you get from orals is temporary; you are only going to retain the strength you will add via any new lean mass you can retain and the weight/leverage/muscle fiber that will impart. So in the context of a strength contest on a particular day that matters to you, orals that make you really strong while using are great. Epistane always made me very strong after about a month. But if you actually want to use them just to drive along your general strength base, like in a power building training program, you actually want the ones that impart the most dry lean mass improvements.

So Msten, paradoxically, will actually make you stronger longterm if it makes you bigger (looking at post PCT weight retention and assuming you haven’t already hit your maximum natural potential for muscle retention).

I have pushed Epistane up to 80mg for a powerlifting meet, and Msten up to 32mg. Epistane is great for me around 30-40mg and Msten is cherry at 20mg. After those points, the sides really come on strong. I don’t believe you want to take as much as you can handle, you want to take the dose that imparts the most reward while being easier to tolerate. This is individual of course, but I’m just reminding you that more is not better - better is better, especially in the context of longterm progression.
 
Romasz

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I would mirror everyone’s general reactions to Epistane and Msten. Msten gives a bit more glycogen fullness, Epistane a bit more strength, Msten a tad more mass in the end.

I just wanted to comment that the strength you get from orals is temporary; you are only going to retain the strength you will add via any new lean mass you can retain and the weight/leverage/muscle fiber that will impart. So in the context of a strength contest on a particular day that matters to you, orals that make you really strong while using are great. Epistane always made me very strong after about a month. But if you actually want to use them just to drive along your general strength base, like in a power building training program, you actually want the ones that impart the most dry lean mass improvements.

So Msten, paradoxically, will actually make you stronger longterm if it makes you bigger (looking at post PCT weight retention and assuming you haven’t already hit your maximum natural potential for muscle retention).

I have pushed Epistane up to 80mg for a powerlifting meet, and Msten up to 32mg. Epistane is great for me around 30-40mg and Msten is cherry at 20mg. After those points, the sides really come on strong. I don’t believe you want to take as much as you can handle, you want to take the dose that imparts the most reward while being easier to tolerate. This is individual of course, but I’m just reminding you that more is not better - better is better, especially in the context of longterm progression.
Basically
M-Sten would be mainly for putting on more mass in the end,
Epistane better for putting on more strength
( do either compounds make many changes in vascularity?)
 
Hyde

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Basically
M-Sten would be mainly for putting on more mass in the end,
Epistane better for putting on more strength
( do either compounds make many changes in vascularity?)
Epistane is a drier look, dries you out in general, it would show veins better on it for sure for this reason (speaking from experience). You hold less water overall so you look leaner/drier. Not to say Msten is “wet”; it’s not. It’s that Epistane actively dries you out some.

My joints pop like Rice Krispies on it. Allegedly stacks well with Trestolone or higher Test, stuff like that to help offset the extra estrogen. It was commonly stacked with M14AD back in the day by folks using all otc stuff.

Kinda think about Epistane how someone would use Winstrol.
 
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Basically
M-Sten would be mainly for putting on more mass in the end,
Epistane better for putting on more strength
( do either compounds make many changes in vascularity?)
Being lean, having good circulation and a genetic factor are all involved in vascularity. I don't believe any compound specifically increases vascularity with maybe the exception of epo or just high amounts of androgens in general increasing red blood cell count and your blood pressure
 

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