Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
The responses. Yours and others.
I just like soaking up the drama.
I know where I stand on pct protocols.
Stubborn and ignorant, but its mine.
Shouldnt "delayed gyno" just be called rebound?
ImJ2x
Well-known member
Estrogen that's been suppressed will always "rebound," in your body's attempt to reacquire homeostasis. But the rebound doesn't always cause gyno (fortunately).
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
Has anyone actually pinpointed the cause of superdrol gyno?
Or is it just like the SD PCT argument, many different ideals with no real definate protocol?
ImJ2x
Well-known member
It's a huge mystery.
But my current opinion (subject to change at any time, lol) is that SD must be such a strong anti-E (wiping out all your natural estrogen), that your body can over-react towards homeostasis once the SD is stopped. This makes PCT absolutely critical, but I haven't yet formulated a PCT protocol that I'm confident with.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
Reps, this is where i am at.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Not really. There a couple older hyuge threads on Newbbies .com where a couple of chemists and docs theorize it's from rebound related to AI's (namely ATD). It's doubtful it'll ever be completely figured out since it's not a clinical anabolic. But considering rebound gyno seemed to become common mainly when people began using AI's for PCT it may have some validity, God only know for sure though.
ImJ2x
Well-known member
Let me know if you come up with one, because it's driving me nuts, lol.
Ziquor
Well-known member
This is exactly where those BB 'experts' get their theory. Since SD possibly acts as a potent AI (as does Masteron), suppressing estro, then jumping to an AI for PCT your estrogen is too low for too long (rebound?). It's one of the better theories I've seen thus far, just my opinion though.
ImJ2x
Well-known member
Yeah -- I'm definitely not a scientist (or a doctor, lol), so this stuff just gives me a headache.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
I could see it go that way.
But there have been successful pcts with AI's. or at least gyno free.
Bloodwork post cycle shows what? Low T and Low E or just Low T......?
ImJ2x, if i could guarantee a no gyno SD PCT. I would be living on a beach somewhere collecting royalties......lol
crazyfool405
Banned
when i get my blood back itll be on PPLEX MDROL bridge, in which case we will see if any anti E properties.
now "delayed" gyno is caused by HIGH amounts of anti androgens/AIs (ATD), it will help you recover bettern (if in low doses) but if in high doses it is counter intuitive to you recovery because
1= you want a higher androgen then estrogen ratio.
2= estrogen is dimished too much
when you use ATD it lowers them both and thus causing an unfavorable ratio.
now on the other hand, aside from ATD (which just seems to be unique to all other steroidal AIs)
When you just use a SERM it leaves flowing estrogen in the body, and doesnt block the aromatization of natural androgens to estrogens. when you stop the SERM it "floods" the receptors causing a REBOUND and possibly gyno.
SD is methylated masteron, and we all know that changing even something as little as that can change how it reacts in the body, and Z has used the EQ and Dbol example quite often, which is true. so saying its a strong anti E because masteron should not be held to 100% truth.
those are my theorys take it or leave it. lol
now "delayed" gyno is caused by HIGH amounts of anti androgens/AIs (ATD), it will help you recover bettern (if in low doses) but if in high doses it is counter intuitive to you recovery because
1= you want a higher androgen then estrogen ratio.
2= estrogen is dimished too much
when you use ATD it lowers them both and thus causing an unfavorable ratio.
now on the other hand, aside from ATD (which just seems to be unique to all other steroidal AIs)
When you just use a SERM it leaves flowing estrogen in the body, and doesnt block the aromatization of natural androgens to estrogens. when you stop the SERM it "floods" the receptors causing a REBOUND and possibly gyno.
SD is methylated masteron, and we all know that changing even something as little as that can change how it reacts in the body, and Z has used the EQ and Dbol example quite often, which is true. so saying its a strong anti E because masteron should not be held to 100% truth.
those are my theorys take it or leave it. lol
Ziquor
Well-known member
No doubt. I'm sure it has a lot to do with ones own physiology too. Some guys are 'prone' to gyno. Other guys may not get gyno even if they tried.
I have a friend at my gym who was prone to *****y tits since he was a kid. He worked out successfully for years and made pretty good progress, finally one day wanted to try an 'anabolic'. I personally told him it probably wasn't a good idea, but he was convinced he could get away with Epistane based on their ads claiming to possibly help gyno. Well, needless to say he received a nasty gyno case. He got rid of 99% of it with Letrozole and then a year later he ran SD, idiot.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
spell out the tits word Z....is that s h i t t y , b i t c h y ?
Either way, once gyno is there shouldnt one just get it removed before they run those kind of compounds? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen or an endless vicious circle.
Ziquor
Well-known member
I've never heard of anyone who got SD gyno that used a SERM only, regardless of which one (Clomid, Tamox, Torem) - doesn't seem physiologically possible
<--- No punBut, if there was 'receptor rebound', then say someone is taking an anti-psychotic like Haldol which blocks dopamine at the brain receptor. When they stop their body isn't flooded with Dopamine as if they just did a kilo of cocaine.
Trauma1
Legend
I've never heard of anyone who got SD gyno that used a SERM only, regardless of which one (Clomid, Tamox, Torem) - doesn't seem physiologically possible
But, if there was 'receptor rebound', then say someone is taking an anti-psychotic like Haldol which blocks dopamine at the brain receptor. When they stop their body isn't flooded with Dopamine as if they just did a kilo of cocaine.
Ah, vitamin H (haloperidol/haldol). We use it all the time in the ER. Very often utilized in conjunction with vitamin A (lorazepam/ativan). Haldol 5mg/Ativan 2mg/Cogentin 1mg (IM) is called the "Psych Cocktail" lol! :lol:
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
You make no sense and you’re not answering the question.
What’s your proposed mechanism of how Nolva would inhibit the hypothalamus?
-Pp
crazyfool405
Banned
I've never heard of anyone who got SD gyno that used a SERM only, regardless of which one (Clomid, Tamox, Torem) - doesn't seem physiologically possible
But, if there was 'receptor rebound', then say someone is taking an anti-psychotic like Haldol which blocks dopamine at the brain receptor. When they stop their body isn't flooded with Dopamine as if they just did a kilo of cocaine.
no they may get prolactin sides though, .....?
crazyfool405
Banned
so are you in med school doing rounds or an Actual doctor out of school and practicing?
but thats pretty cool, i just dissected a rat today it was pretty sweet lol
Ziquor
Well-known member
Haha, but I bet they're lovely patients.
Sadly the days of Thorazine are falling away from us
Trauma1
Legend
Haha, but I bet they're lovely patients.
Sadly the days of Thorazine are falling away from us
Actually the new wonder antipsychotic is called Geodon. I've seen that stuff put down the most irrate and massive people. Good stuff.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Actually the new wonder antipsychotic is called Geodon. I've seen that stuff put down the most irrate and massive people. Good stuff.
I wish my ex GF was on Geodon, things would've been much smoother
Trauma1
Legend
I'm currently an RN, however working on putting together an application for PA (Physician Assistant) school. I know many say, "why don't you just go on in nursing and become an nurse practitoner?" I've debated this for some time. The truth is it depends where you live which is utilized more. Not to mention it's unfortunate, but nurse practitoners don't get the respect in medicine they should. I suppose because the word "nurse" is in the title, and the stigma of a nurse carries with it. It's crap, but i see it all the time. Not that PA's don't face similar issues though.
If i wasn't married and in the process of creating a family i would have just gone for my MD. I'm happy with my decisions though, and would feel accomplished and satisfied with the PA role.
In florida the PA role is fairly decent in the ER setting, which is where i want to work anyway.
crazyfool405
Banned
well congrats on everhthing man!!!
ImJ2x
Well-known member
D pwned PP and J2x - just ask him...
[I hope your 7th post here is more enlightening.]
Eric Potratz
Board Sponsor
:hammer:
I presented a pretty basic argument for nolva being superior to clomid… but Dillio never really rebutted my points or explained himself.
-Pp
djbkxr
New member
5151
New member
The presence of contaminants may be possibility that is over looked especially when dealing with clones.
ImJ2x
Well-known member
At least it was clever, lol.
:cheers:
Force of Green
Well-known member
We can't make comparisons between Superdrol and the DS writeup "Superdrol is the best of Masteron and Anadrol! Woot woot!" We don't know what Superdrol really is and what it actually does except from the things we read here on the boards about it. I think the stuff is pure poison.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
I actually made a reference to that earlier in the thread.
My mistake, that was the phera/superdrol layout discussion.
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
Product? I have no interest in CEL but thanks. I do love me some M Drol though.
I'd assume you would then agree his qualifications are more inline with the validity of his suggestions, correct? Although as you would likely agree psychology also plays a significant role in PCT recovery. However I believe this discussion is in relevant to the scientific aspect of PCT recovery in relation to SERMs.
I'm not hiring right now but I'll keep you in mind for the future.
Thats an odd statement coming from someone as educated and as young as yourself (I do not know your actual age but for some reason I thought you were a younger guy).
Back to my point - I dont think it is necessary to question his qualifications as they are posted all over the net. I'd like to see the discussion between Nolva and Clomid continue. Pp has asked some pretty relevant questions in regards to D_'s stance. I'm not sure your posts are moving in that direction.
Also, if you think I'm some D_ "nuthugger" here to join the "battle" think again. I have questioned his opinion on numerous occasions and fwiw used Nolva (oh mai!) in my last few PCT's.
I think it has been said, and said again but most average cyclers have no clue what gyno actually is (I think mullet has an entire thread here dedicated to this).
But really the "delayed" part is what I am questioning. Its a "bro" term and has no scientific relevance. Gyno is gyno.
I'm a "bro" btw, so its kool with me if yall wanna call it that. :afro:
Royd The Noyd
Board Sponsor
Well shit I'm like 5 pages behind already. 
Force of Green
Well-known member
The logically correct wording would be 'gyno with a delayed onset' or 'delayed onset gyno'.
Kristofer68SS
Well-known member
Product? I have no interest in CEL but thanks. I do love me some M Drol though.
I'd assume you would then agree his qualifications are more inline with the validity of his suggestions, correct? Although as you would likely agree psychology also plays a significant role in PCT recovery. However I believe this discussion is in relevant to the scientific aspect of PCT recovery in relation to SERMs.
I'm not hiring right now but I'll keep you in mind for the future.
Thats an odd statement coming from someone as educated and as young as yourself (I do not know your actual age but for some reason I thought you were a younger guy).
Back to my point - I dont think it is necessary to question his qualifications as they are posted all over the net. I'd like to see the discussion between Nolva and Clomid continue. Pp has asked some pretty relevant questions in regards to D_'s stance. I'm not sure your posts are moving in that direction.
Also, if you think I'm some D_ "nuthugger" here to join the "battle" think again. I have questioned his opinion on numerous occasions and fwiw used Nolva (oh mai!) in my last few PCT's.
I think it has been said, and said again but most average cyclers have no clue what gyno actually is (I think mullet has an entire thread here dedicated to this).
But really the "delayed" part is what I am questioning. Its a "bro" term and has no scientific relevance. Gyno is gyno.
I'm a "bro" btw, so its kool with me if yall wanna call it that. :afro:
I concur.
I would really like to see the clomid/nolva debate go on further.
I still think clomid is a better choice for returning test, preferably with HCG, and Nolva as an Anti-E for normal gyno concerns.
I must admit, i derailed the topic as well.
My apologies.......
D, where are you?
Hank Vangut
Well-known member
in for a continued nolva - clomid discussion.
Ziquor
Well-known member
Product? I have no interest in CEL but thanks. I do love me some M Drol though.
I'd assume you would then agree his qualifications are more inline with the validity of his suggestions, correct? Although as you would likely agree psychology also plays a significant role in PCT recovery. However I believe this discussion is in relevant to the scientific aspect of PCT recovery in relation to SERMs.
I'm not hiring right now but I'll keep you in mind for the future.
Thats an odd statement coming from someone as educated and as young as yourself (I do not know your actual age but for some reason I thought you were a younger guy).
Back to my point - I dont think it is necessary to question his qualifications as they are posted all over the net. I'd like to see the discussion between Nolva and Clomid continue. Pp has asked some pretty relevant questions in regards to D_'s stance. I'm not sure your posts are moving in that direction.
Also, if you think I'm some D_ "nuthugger" here to join the "battle" think again. I have questioned his opinion on numerous occasions and fwiw used Nolva (oh mai!) in my last few PCT's.
I think it has been said, and said again but most average cyclers have no clue what gyno actually is (I think mullet has an entire thread here dedicated to this).
But really the "delayed" part is what I am questioning. Its a "bro" term and has no scientific relevance. Gyno is gyno.
I'm a "bro" btw, so its kool with me if yall wanna call it that. :afro:
Young? no
Need a job? no I'm self employed
A 'doctor' told someone who got gyno after a SD cycle that it wasn't possible (when he did). 'Doc' also said it was impossible his gyno was fixed with ATD (when it was). Because I had questions, you called me out? I just don't see your point. There's a vast difference between having an MD, and actually practicing medicine & seeing patients ED, tracking progress, etc. I don't take much stock in what people say on the internet, so I apologize if you feel it's harsh.
As for the 'experience' I like to think of substance counseling 20-40 years ago. Doctor and psychologists 'tried' to counsel addict where their success rate was roughly less than 2%. Present times it really doesn't matter if you go to school for 15 years - almost all substance counselors are former users. You can sit in a class for 5 years learning about the disease but you'll still have no clue how it really feels, what people 'actually' go through. These days success rates are more in between 15-20% which isn't perfect but a vast improvement. Experience is priceless, education plus experience is even better obviously.
Ziquor
Well-known member
dinoiii
Featured Author
Re-read my posts - apparently, it isn't sinking in. I HAVE SUGGESTED TIME AND TIME AGAIN that NOLVA DOES NOT ACT IN AN INHIBITORY WAY AT THE HYPOTHALAMUS, suggesting it harbors attenuated efficacy.
I will disregard the fact that you have apparent dyslexia (as evidenced by your inability to get a silly screen name correct, as if that were to get me all hot and bothered; I have actually tried to stay on course and the only thing you can maintain is feebile attempts at insults - from your very first post nonetheless...I would hardly consider this worth my time).
And for those anticipating I spend 24 hours a day on here - that's hardly the case when I am on call. Give me a chance to respond - the other day I responded so rapidly as it was Sunday (and that was the only reason).
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
dinoiii
Featured Author
Running cycles does NOT make you more experienced at anything. This is silly banter and I have countered such discussions in the past.
Its the same logic: stress increases cortisol, cortisol increases belly fat, you need Relacore, et al...
Taking PH/PS/AAS increases breast tissue, fending off breast tissue with (ATD) makes you more intelligent, you need ATD...
YAWN!
And actually I have seen far more people who have run cycles than I think you can appreciate, but I am not here to earn your praise, so I could care less what you buy into to be honest. This would make me sleep no easier at night.
But I really would encourage going beyond the confines of AM before making continues statements displaying a significant dearth in your understanding of what it is that I do.
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
Did you add it to DA? Therapeutic? Where do you practice and see patients? I assumed Rochester but I guess I was wrong
Let's see ... I will correct again, sure. I haven't posted but a handful of posts in the last 6 months at DA, so would you like to continue to attack, displaying how much you do NOT know about me or address the issues at hand. This is prototypical strawman attempts. Again, I am not really phased by gang-philosophy of bb message boards (but you likely know that as you apparently claim to know me better than me).
Never have I advertised services here, which is funny as people continue to express how much they don't know. Reality is I do well without you and despite the suggestions of moderators (which by definition should not realistically take a side in any such argument, when again I reask that you take a look at initial comments in this exchange).
Want to continue talking? I parted ways with MAN back late last year. Do you really want to keep displaying the huge disparity that exists in what you know about me? Completely ludicrous and likely borderline asinine.
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
Again, as I sound like a broken record...anyone who wants to evaluate the thread as a whole - go back and view how I was pulled into this one. The way moderation exchanges happen here too are somewhat entertaining by people that don't realize what "moderators" should do. Maintaining objectivity would be as simple as actually reading this thread, but of course I am lined up against a board sponsor who jumps in when the gangers attempt to ruffle my feathers. Funny part is that I seem to be getting them going more.
I have explained my piece time and again and I understand more and more why people do avoid this board (I know, it may be hard to accept that that does happen and by some intelligent guys which is highly unfortunate...the male ego sometimes will get in the way when you think someone is up against the ropes; guys I will reiterate though, I don't lose any sleep by e-comments, so you can discuss the topic at hand as is seemingly desired by a bunch of people or continue on with strawman conjecture - not really an entertaining battle any longer for me; but apparently I have nothing to offer everyone here who apparently are not only well-versed in what they obviously have displayed significant ignorance in, but also what they think they know about me - I know, I will maintain being puzzled on that latter one, but that is again strawman effect, brash and off-base, but it only comes out when they think bully techniques matter - its e-drama...enjoy).
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
This is not exactly true, but it was you guys who brought up education...re-read once again - not me.
Experience would be dealing with it on a daily basis I think, but you guys have even challenged that. Honestly, I am not here to please anyone - so with my comments as you may. People who have interacted with me would see it different.
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
Only quoting the above to signify you are merely making things up now; not only are you not "brilliant" but there may be significant cerebral lesions somewhere (unsure, but perhaps you can proceed with caution).
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
Says the guy who preaches in authoratative fashion. Mildly entertaining.
Asks me for opinion way back when - preparing with suggesting he wouldn't like my response - then when he doesn't like my response, choses to attack me with things he merely shows more ignorance with. R-I-G-H-T, this thread was worth my time.
Oh, but you have...
ATD cures hunger, solves world peace, and probably answers just how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop.
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
Actually the new wonder antipsychotic is called Geodon. I've seen that stuff put down the most irrate and massive people. Good stuff.
And yet still when independently compared (only non-government sponsored comparative AntiPsychotic trial), Clozaril still beats them all (ok, so Abilify won't give you the runs with agranulocytosis, but the pull is still quite significant in the efficacy domain).
D_
dinoiii
Featured Author
Wow...far be it from me to respond to such clever inscription. Still, I would be the one who would be reprimanded by "moderators" not being a board sponsor and all.
Well, again I just encourage you to learn the act of reading is all. I can't help you in that department. I have explained my view 3 different ways on the same freaking point and it still hasn't gotten through the layers, so I bid you adieu as this has gone nowhere as was anticipated.
D_