Looks like the Dems have Bush by the bush

Chad

Chad

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They are going to get the info they want no matter how much the white house crys about it. And the courts will back them up:hammer:
 
actually its a case of seperation of powers. the president has a choice in his policy to allow his people to testify, as some presidents have done in the past, but it is not the law and the constitution would have to be amended in order to force any information regarding this case out. Its actually a very simple, cut and dry issue here but the media likes to play on people's ignorance of their own government's internal rules and regulations.
 
Back on topic. Sorry for my gayness ealier...long week.

But I don't understand the need to explain the firings. If you want to look historically, why didn't we look into Clinton when he fired a ****load of them?

Now I am a very left sided republican, and not a Bush supporter and I voted an almost completely democratic ticket this past november, but I see this as a Democratically controlled government trying to flex thier newly aquired political muscle.

Guilliani in '08!!!
 
Hope they get to the bottom of this, "people should not fear their governments, and governments should be free of their people."
 
PumpingIron said:
Back on topic. Sorry for my gayness ealier...long week.

But I don't understand the need to explain the firings. If you want to look historically, why didn't we look into Clinton when he fired a ****load of them?

Now I am a very left sided republican, and not a Bush supporter and I voted an almost completely democratic ticket this past november, but I see this as a Democratically controlled government trying to flex thier newly aquired political muscle.

Guilliani in '08!!!
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The only difference is that non of those let go by Clinton (remember they were appointed by Bush #1 not by Clinton) have come forward saying they were pressured into looking at the other party by House and Senate members. Also, the administration brought this on themselves by changing their story like 6 times.

One thing I think is funny: Bush wants to wield Executive Priv and protect Rove and Miers. Now Executive priv is only valid when an aid is giving advice or talking with the President. The President and everyone else has said he was removed from this whole ordeal and that it never came up with him. So how can executive priv be used in this case?

I cant wait for the next president...I dont even care who at this point.
 
Clinton actually let people go that were looking into his Arkansas land deals, after they were fired they no longer had any teeth. Clinton did a more correct thing by getting rid of everyone, its less shady but still as with Bush, not against any law for him to do. If you run a buisness, you can hire and fire anyone you want, thats what they can do as well.

Rove, as well as Miers, are still in a role as a white house aid and are under the protection of the constitution regardless if advice is given. People like you and me as well as those on the hill and the foggy bottom are not required to know what advice aids give. If a president had to worry about what aids say to him because the congress might be offended and call them in to testify, then we will never be able to bounce free and open ideas around in any administration. We would be in a worse state of political correctness than we already are.

The worst thing the white house did was admit there were mistakes in accepting the resignations of these people. There were no mistakes, they should have allowed even more of the clinton left overs to end their post. There is no issue here and if those pressing the issue aren't careful they might find themselves in a situation in a year or so.
 
Squeaks4ver said:
Clinton actually let people go that were looking into his Arkansas land deals, after they were fired they no longer had any teeth. Clinton did a more correct thing by getting rid of everyone, its less shady but still as with Bush, not against any law for him to do. If you run a buisness, you can hire and fire anyone you want, thats what they can do as well.

Rove, as well as Miers, are still in a role as a white house aid and are under the protection of the constitution regardless if advice is given. People like you and me as well as those on the hill and the foggy bottom are not required to know what advice aids give. If a president had to worry about what aids say to him because the congress might be offended and call them in to testify, then we will never be able to bounce free and open ideas around in any administration. We would be in a worse state of political correctness than we already are.

The worst thing the white house did was admit there were mistakes in accepting the resignations of these people. There were no mistakes, they should have allowed even more of the clinton left overs to end their post. There is no issue here and if those pressing the issue aren't careful they might find themselves in a situation in a year or so.
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Agreed. And I will reiterate my intial statement that this is more of a witch hunt against the current administration. More of a "we're have the power" thing.

As far as what Clinton did, we haven't had an executive officer in this country without anytype of corruption as far back as I can research. I'm not commenting on the extent of thier corruption, just that it is always there in a capitalistic government.



As far as what zbt said, I too cannot wait until we get a new president. Hopefully a republican that is graceful and tactful and not quite as bull-headed. Both of the major canidates look as though they are suitable in this manor.
 
As far as protection against aids go, what I heard last night from John Dean, former Nixon legal counsel, is that they are only protected when dealing directly with the President. A conversation between aids is not protected, nor is when an aid contacts people in the Justice department. So if Bush was never briefed about any of this from his aids how can they be protected? According to Dean, they are not. At this point, thats all I can base my knowledge on the matter on.

I'd be really suprised if Rudy makes it out if the GOP alive. As a Dem, Rudy is the type of Republican i would want in office. With the way things are going now though, the democrats could probably put forth a Monkey and win the general. oh wait...we may just do that with Hillary. :D
 
actually the democratic party is gearing up to be like their McGovernist past, and he lost BIG TIME against nixon. At this point,if the democrats stay on their path, and if the Republicans offer a TRUE solid conservative, no liberal will have a chance.

Also, the democrat party isn't holding up very well as the majority. Today's vote to help spinich farmers ( and give some money to the troops for a year) was only passed by 218-212 those 6 votes were bought by Grandma Speaker. This vote will be a good wake up call for conservatives to rally around. The Rebuplican party exploded and lost power thus the people removed most of the liberal members of the party; however, the democrats are imploding and have no ability to gain control. One aspect of proof comes from today's vote that SHOULD have been party line.
 
But what right sided republican do they have?

It doesn't matter much, the American vote is going to be sueded to vote for Edwards now anyways.
 
Bush is a tool. Its called abuse of power.

ps. squeaks, i like your avatar too. thought it was a dead deer at first.
hahahaha
 
PumpingIron said:
Bush is a tool and it may be an abuse of power but its an acceptable one.
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well EVERYTHING is acceptable these days with our gorernment. You can lie and do drugs and steal and cheat on your wife and send lower income young peolpe over seas to get killed so you can get sweet oil deals and so on and so on.
The American people have become numb to seeing the people they elect fcuk them over
 
Thats what i'm saying....Guilliani in 08...


Oh and cheap oil huh? That wasn't the only reason for the war but anyways...it worked out well for us huh?
 
PumpingIron said:
Thats what i'm saying....Guilliani in 08...


Oh and cheap oil huh? That wasn't the only reason for the war but anyways...it worked out well for us huh?
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i dont even think im going to vote next year. and i agree that oil wasn`t the only reason but it was a bad reason.
 
thank you muchly... i think everyone uses the same emo angle so.. i got rid of that and opted for whatever you can call this one lol
 
Squeaks4ver said:
actually the democratic party is gearing up to be like their McGovernist past, and he lost BIG TIME against nixon. At this point,if the democrats stay on their path, and if the Republicans offer a TRUE solid conservative, no liberal will have a chance.

Also, the democrat party isn't holding up very well as the majority. Today's vote to help spinich farmers ( and give some money to the troops for a year) was only passed by 218-212 those 6 votes were bought by Grandma Speaker. This vote will be a good wake up call for conservatives to rally around. The Rebuplican party exploded and lost power thus the people removed most of the liberal members of the party; however, the democrats are imploding and have no ability to gain control. One aspect of proof comes from today's vote that SHOULD have been party line.
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Dont you mean the like the republicans during Clinton's day?

I also like "the democrat party isn't holding up very well as the majority". You mean their not towing the line for the president like the past 6 years? Or is that the democrats actually can have their own voice and not be silenced by the nuts in the party like the gop have? The GOP is in FAR worse shape the left. They wont recover until they silence the Neo-Con war-lovers. **** Cheney anyone?
 
I hate to say it, but Cheney was the best thing to happen to this administration. Granted I don't agree fully with his ideals but his course of action and staying undeterred is a great sign of strength for the US.
 
PumpingIron said:
I hate to say it, but Cheney was the best thing to happen to this administration. Granted I don't agree fully with his ideals but his course of action and staying undeterred is a great sign of strength for the US.
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You say strength, i say stupidity.
 
Chad said:
well EVERYTHING is acceptable these days with our gorernment. You can lie and do drugs and steal and cheat on your wife and send lower income young peolpe over seas to get killed so you can get sweet oil deals and so on and so on.
The American people have become numb to seeing the people they elect fcuk them over
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Chad,

No offense, but you show your age with this comment. If you think this administration is actually worse than others then you are selectively looking past history.

For the most part, its business as usual and has been for decades. Actually it was worse before because you didn't have thousands of news outlets and cable news watching every second.
 
zbtboy said:
Dont you mean the like the republicans during Clinton's day?

I also like "the democrat party isn't holding up very well as the majority". You mean their not towing the line for the president like the past 6 years? Or is that the democrats actually can have their own voice and not be silenced by the nuts in the party like the gop have? The GOP is in FAR worse shape the left. They wont recover until they silence the Neo-Con war-lovers. **** Cheney anyone?
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That's what they said about the Democratic party in 2004.

If you think for a second the Republican party is in worse shape then the left, then you are sipping the Kool Aid a bit too often.

Your democratic majority just had to bribe 2 parties to get a bill past. Nothing like giving billions to the dairy, spinach and peanut industries to pass an ANTI-WAR bill. :rolleyes:

Isn't the this the new "ethical" Congress? Bwahaha...



WASHINGTON - Congress has loaded up President Bush's request for "emergency" spending on the Iraq war with more than $20 billion in "pork" for members' districts.

Money for peanut storage in Georgia, spinach growers in California, menhaden in the Atlantic Ocean and even more office space for the lawmakers themselves is included in what has ballooned into a $124 billion war bill.

"This emergency supplemental bill has more ornaments hanging over our many branches of government than the White House Christmas tree," Rep. Jerry Lewis, R-Calif., said.

Originally, Bush asked for $105 billion in emergency funding. Democratic leaders say they want to grant the request to continue funding the war despite their desire to end it.

"We have provided all of the money the president requested- and more," boasted House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer.

That includes $74 million for peanut storage, $25 million for spinach growers and $100 million for citrus growers.

It also includes $16 million to convert the old Food and Drug Administration building in southwest D.C. into more office space for the Capitol. That "emergency" expenditure comes at a time when taxpayers already shell out $600 million "more than double the original estimate" for a mammoth expansion of the Capitol, which includes 160,000 feet of new office space.


Lewis accused House leaders of trying to "paper over Democrat divisions on the war in Iraq by delivering billions of dollars in unrelated and unauthorized spending that is somehow given an emergency designation."

Hoyer denied the charge from Lewis, who himself was famous for his own pork spending when he served as Appropriations Committee chairman under Republican control.

"They are a strange group to talk about buying votes," Hoyer chuckled. "This is the crowd that took pork barrel spending to new levels of irresponsibility."

The 172-page spending bill will get its first public airing today at an Appropriations Committee meeting, where panel members expect to approve it.

Rep. Mark Kirk, an Illinois Republican who sits on the committee, said he will try amending the bill today. First, he wants to strip out the non-emergency, member-requested spending and force it to go through the normal appropriations process. Under newly approved Democratic rules, that would require offsets to pay for the new spending.

Kirk also wants to entirely eliminate money for spinach farmers.

"Spinach farmers in California should not be getting emergency war spending money," he said.
 
Bobo said:
Chad,

No offense, but you show your age with this comment. If you think this administration is actually worse than others then you are selectively looking past history.

For the most part, its business as usual and has been for decades. Actually it was worse before because you didn't have thousands of news outlets and cable news watching every second.
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I was waiting for you to chime in, bobo...

But I don't fully agree. A lot of what the president SHOULD do is work for the people. Hasn't much happened with this presidency. He has gone against the majority on quite a few major decisions.
 
PumpingIron said:
I was waiting for you to chime in, bobo...

But I don't fully agree. A lot of what the president SHOULD do is work for the people. Hasn't much happened with this presidency. He has gone against the majority on quite a few major decisions.
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:goodpost:
 
PumpingIron said:
I was waiting for you to chime in, bobo...

But I don't fully agree. A lot of what the president SHOULD do is work for the people. Hasn't much happened with this presidency. He has gone against the majority on quite a few major decisions.
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Then thank God you weren't the majority when Roosevelt, Truman, Lincoln and Washington were around. There might not be an America.

You would have had a heart attack.

Presidents are judged years after their terms. Some of the most popular Presidents during their terms turned out to be the biggest lame ducks...and vice versa.

President Lincoln had some of the most unpopular and worst approval ratings in history. He had a 2% approval rating among African Americans at one time. Thank God Lincoln stayed around for them. He is now considered the best President ever. Same goes with Roosevelt when America's popular opinion was to keep its isolationist philosophy.

All Presidents makes mistakes but public opinion makes more. History shows that as a fact.
 
Bobo said:
Then thank God you weren't the majority when Roosevelt, Truman, Lincoln and Washington were around. There might not be an America.

You would have had a heart attack.

Presidents are judged years after their terms. Some of the most popular Presidents during their terms turned out to be the biggest lame ducks...and vice versa.

President Lincoln had some of the most unpopular and worst approval ratings in history. He had a 2% approval rating among African Americans at one time. Thank God Lincoln stayed around for them. He is now considered the best President ever. Same goes with Roosevelt when America's popular opinion was to keep its isolationist philosophy.

All Presidents makes mistakes but public opinion makes more. History shows that as a fact.
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Please please please do not put George W in the same sentence as Teddy, George, Abe and Henry...

Those men made major decisions against the norm for the greater good. Bush's decisions might turn out to be good but that remains to be seen, but in my opinion (which is the opinion of a 23 year old, haha) it looks pretty bleak.
 
And to further my point, which isn't exactly the same as one refuting your point (just to make that perfectly clear). What major thing has Bush done to immortalize him the way those above have been?
 
Bobo said:
Then thank God you weren't the majority when Roosevelt, Truman, Lincoln and Washington were around. There might not be an America.

You would have had a heart attack.

Presidents are judged years after their terms. Some of the most popular Presidents during their terms turned out to be the biggest lame ducks...and vice versa.

President Lincoln had some of the most unpopular and worst approval ratings in history. He had a 2% approval rating among African Americans at one time. Thank God Lincoln stayed around for them. He is now considered the best President ever. Same goes with Roosevelt when America's popular opinion was to keep its isolationist philosophy.

All Presidents makes mistakes but public opinion makes more. History shows that as a fact.
Click to expand...

History is written by the winners and by whoever is in control of the media (or 1860's printing presses) at the given time-line of reference. Revisionism is applied to the events to shade them in favor of the current ruling elite. Lincoln had low ratings among the black population because they ultimately knew Lincoln did not care about them.

The Emancipation Proclamation was used to punish the southern states who had seceded to form a constitutional legal Confederacy of States. The federal government of the north needed southern port tariffs to fund its own existence.

It was the emerging technology of the cotton gin, that freed the slaves. The slaves had become fiscally inefficient to the operating costs of the plantations.

Teddy Roosevelt conquered Puerto Rico and stabilized the slave trading islands of the gulf to USA corporate control. Although it looks like immigration and the North American Union is a kind of Montezumas revenge!

Harry Truman killed thousand of innocent people with a completely un-needed 2nd H-bomb dropping on Japan

Yeah , I think GWB fits right in with that company
 
PumpingIron said:
And to further my point, which isn't exactly the same as one refuting your point (just to make that perfectly clear). What major thing has Bush done to immortalize him the way those above have been?
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he will be immortalized after he is out of office and a grand jurry finds out "more" dirty secrets about him, this war and god knows what else. his whole staff is so corrupted its scary to think what things they have done.
 
anabolicrhino said:
History is written by the winners and by whoever is in control of the media (or 1860's printing presses) at the given time-line of reference. Revisionism is applied to the events to shade them in favor of the current ruling elite. Lincoln had low ratings among the black population because they ultimately knew Lincoln did not care about them.

The Emancipation Proclamation was used to punish the southern states who had seceded to form a constitutional legal Confederacy of States. The federal government of the north needed southern port tariffs to fund its own existence.

It was the emerging technology of the cotton gin, that freed the slaves. The slaves had become fiscally inefficient to the operating costs of the plantations.

Teddy Roosevelt conquered Puerto Rico and stabilized the slave trading islands of the gulf to USA corporate control. Although it looks like immigration and the North American Union is a kind of Montezumas revenge!

Harry Truman killed thousand of innocent people with a completely un-needed 2nd H-bomb dropping on Japan

Yeah , I think GWB fits right in with that company
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History is subjective. There is much more evidence for what we read in the history books then this.

Hahaha...I find this comical. I supposed you watched a little too much Robert Wuhl recently huh?
 
anabolicrhino said:
History is written by the winners and by whoever is in control of the media (or 1860's printing presses) at the given time-line of reference. Revisionism is applied to the events to shade them in favor of the current ruling elite. Lincoln had low ratings among the black population because they ultimately knew Lincoln did not care about them.

The Emancipation Proclamation was used to punish the southern states who had seceded to form a constitutional legal Confederacy of States. The federal government of the north needed southern port tariffs to fund its own existence.

It was the emerging technology of the cotton gin, that freed the slaves. The slaves had become fiscally inefficient to the operating costs of the plantations.

Teddy Roosevelt conquered Puerto Rico and stabilized the slave trading islands of the gulf to USA corporate control. Although it looks like immigration and the North American Union is a kind of Montezumas revenge!

Harry Truman killed thousand of innocent people with a completely un-needed 2nd H-bomb dropping on Japan

Yeah , I think GWB fits right in with that company
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Rhino,


I hate to tell you, but the degree I received was based heavily on studying primary documents of personal journals and a collection of works that have nothing to do with news or a media outlet. I suggest you do the same. There is plenty of history before the printing press. History written by the winners? Hardly...stop quoting dogma. History 101...go read Las Casas then Cortez. Tell me the difference.

Many of your points are true and also confirm what I already said....its business as usual and public opinion based on ignorance of the facts isn't really worth anything.

Even considering the negatives of those listed above, historians still rank them extremely high based on all the factors, not just the select few you choose to make them appear as horrible men. BTW, its FDR, not Teddy as perceived to be one of the greatest even though his New Deal was an utter failure. But that is your general pattern so I wouldn't except otherwise.....
 
PumpingIron said:
History is subjective. There is much more evidence for what we read in the history books then this.

Hahaha...I find this comical. I supposed you watched a little too much Robert Wuhl recently huh?
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Of course its subjective and given the fact that he has never even looked at the primary documents of that time period, his interpretation is extremely incomplete. The scope at which it is incomplete is to large to even go into without reading and quoting a library of historic documents. The simple fact that he doesnt even mention the political ramifications of the election of 1862 and 1864 shows how incomplete the viewpoint is. But rest assured, those men we're not saints and only further emphasizes the fact that what you think is bad today is nothing compared to the past. Some of those points ring true but its hardly one cause, one effect except those who want it to be.

rhino just likes to point out everything negative and flawed. He takes the works by people such as Lerone Bennett as fact. That's his pattern. Its either a conspiracy controlled by the corporate elite or we are being lied to. Pick your poison. :)
 
Chad said:
he will be immortalized after he is out of office and a grand jurry finds out "more" dirty secrets about him, this war and god knows what else. his whole staff is so corrupted its scary to think what things they have done.
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Put the Kool Aid down and walk away.
 
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