Liver Health

InItForGainz

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What are the best supports for liver health?
What are you guys taking to keep your livers healthy?

I got some labs back today with some concerningly high liver enzyme levels.
I'm already taking CEL's Cycle Assist along with a reasonably healthy diet, but by the looks of things that doesn't seem to be enough.
The Doc thinks it's down to my high protein intake, but I'm not too sure.

Any help would be appreciated :)
 
Todd Garner

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A Bourbon a day keeps the doctor away I always say.
 
heavylifter33

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Can you post your lab work? Are you running any steroids/SARMs right now?

Protein intake has no relevance. If you want something stronger, get TUDCA from CEL, run 1g a day. Do that for 1 month then re-test.
 

InItForGainz

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Can you post your lab work? Are you running any steroids/SARMs right now?

Protein intake has no relevance. If you want something stronger, get TUDCA from CEL, run 1g a day. Do that for 1 month then re-test.
Can't post the actual values, My GP just said that my Liver enzyme levels are in the red and said that I need to cut down on my protein intake.
I'm not running anything "Anabolic" right now and haven't taken/been given any AAS/TRT for nearly 4 months now.

Thanks for the Tudca recommendation. I was looking at Tudca products earlier after my appointment, seems to be quite expensive over here in the UK but if it's going to help my health I'm more than happy to spend
 

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NAC is cheap and easy to find online anywhere. It's what they give to people in the hospital for Tylenol overdose. Also protein doesn't elevate liver enzymes unless you have a bad liver already. An ultrasound is the only way to know for sure. Make sure to hydrate before the blood test I went from high to normal ranges in two months just making sure I was hydrated ok the second test.
 
Nac

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OP I thought you were starting cyp trt? You seemed pretty anxious to get started a couple weeks back, whats the story?
 

mmr5605

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1.5 to 3grams of Inositol/Choline
1.5 to 3grams - TMG
1.5 to 3grams - Methionine
A day for one month. Total liver cleanse. Some studies show this combo even helps reverse fatty liver disease. Unclogs fat stored in the liver. Studies are easily found via google.
 

CatSnake

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make sure you're getting plenty of choline.... it's essential for normal liver metabolism. and pretty cheap, too...
 
Ricky10

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I always thought the gold standard for liver health was Antaeus Labs Aegis...no?

OL KingsGuard looks pretty darn impressive for comprehensive support. I probably would not even fully dose that one..it is stacked!
 
LeanEngineer

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I always thought the gold standard for liver health was Antaeus Labs Aegis...no?

OL KingsGuard looks pretty darn impressive for comprehensive support. I probably would not even fully dose that one..it is stacked!
Antaeus Labs Aegis is a great one and tudca by CEL is a good one.
 

InItForGainz

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NAC is cheap and easy to find online anywhere. It's what they give to people in the hospital for Tylenol overdose. Also protein doesn't elevate liver enzymes unless you have a bad liver already. An ultrasound is the only way to know for sure. Make sure to hydrate before the blood test I went from high to normal ranges in two months just making sure I was hydrated ok the second test.
My Cycle Assist already has 750mg of NAC. However, after yesterday's liver shock I might start to double dose it.
I argued against her "It's the protein" diagnosis because my kidney function tests came back fine. Surely if my protein intake was too high my kidney values would have come back with similarly abnormal results.


OP I thought you were starting cyp trt? You seemed pretty anxious to get started a couple weeks back, whats the story?
I was just about to start, but I wanted to do a full body health check before I did just to make sure everything was good before I jumped in, unfortunately a few things came back as being not so good. So I've had to hold off for now just so I can be in good health before I start. I can't start with the TRT with an already damaged liver considering that the Test C could potentially damage it even more.

make sure you're getting plenty of choline.... it's essential for normal liver metabolism. and pretty cheap, too...
Any specific form of Choline,
Alpha-GPC?
ALCAR?
Bitartrate?
 

CatSnake

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My Cycle Assist already has 750mg of NAC. However, after yesterday's liver shock I might start to double dose it.
I argued against her "It's the protein" diagnosis because my kidney function tests came back fine. Surely if my protein intake was too high my kidney values would have come back with similarly abnormal results.




I was just about to start, but I wanted to do a full body health check before I did just to make sure everything was good before I jumped in, unfortunately a few things came back as being not so good. So I've had to hold off for now just so I can be in good health before I start. I can't start with the TRT with an already damaged liver considering that the Test C could potentially damage it even more.



Any specific form of Choline,
Alpha-GPC?
ALCAR?
Bitartrate?
phosphatidylcholine is what I use.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601486/
 
justhere4comm

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Can you post your lab work? Are you running any steroids/SARMs right now?
Protein intake has no relevance. If you want something stronger, get TUDCA from CEL, run 1g a day. Do that for 1 month then re-test.
^Agreed, but I'd save money and get Vein Nutrition's LIVER IV with 2x the TUDCA as CEL's TUDCA. It has 500mg per cap with NAC, and Milk Thistle. Stock up. We have a 3 bottle sale an a 10% discount. JUST410.

Edit: Neglected to provide a link to LIVER IV.
 

InItForGainz

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^Agreed, but I'd save money and get Vein Nutrition's LIVER IV with 2x the TUDCA as CEL's TUDCA. It has 500mg per cap with NAC, and Milk Thistle. Stock up. We have a 3 bottle sale an a 10% discount. JUST410.

Edit: Neglected to provide a link to LIVER IV.
Thanks for the recommendation but Vein Nutrition isn't available in the UK yet
 
justhere4comm

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Thanks for the recommendation but Vein Nutrition isn't available in the UK yet
$15 international shipping.
It would go out today too. :) (It's still a better deal)
 
justhere4comm

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Yep. We have NAC in Liver IV. Already.
 

milanownz

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Ehm guys, for an epi and halo stacked cycle, which dose of tudca and nac would you suggest?? Mb Liv52 instead of Nac should be a better choice??
 
heavylifter33

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^Agreed, but I'd save money and get Vein Nutrition's LIVER IV with 2x the TUDCA as CEL's TUDCA. It has 500mg per cap with NAC, and Milk Thistle. Stock up. We have a 3 bottle sale an a 10% discount. JUST410.

Edit: Neglected to provide a link to LIVER IV.
First, this isn't the forum to pimp products. Second, post COA on your TUDCA.
 
tyga tyga

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First, this isn't the forum to pimp products. Second, post COA on your TUDCA.
He's a rep (just not in his signature) and vein is a board sponsor (at least, was)
 
justhere4comm

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First, this isn't the forum to pimp products. Second, post COA on your TUDCA.
Are you on mobile? That's probably why you don't see my signature as repping for Vein Nutrition, and the second time you've called me out for 'pimping' or 'shilling', which makes sense if I weren't a rep for a board sponsor my man. I respect your tenacity towards spammers, but I'm only replying to the OP with what I see as the best solution for his needs that is more affordable as well.

If you want the COA you can write to [email protected] and Alex will respond to your inquiry.
Are you a rep? It's not in your signature.

He's a rep (just not in his signature) and vein is a board sponsor (at least, was)
We're still here. :)

Signature for mobile users:
Screen Shot 2017-04-27 at 9.05.41 AM.png
 

warlordwrug

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CEL Tudca stacked with NAC.

Tudca will help lower Bilrubin and NAC will help with liver enzymes.
Glad someone said this.nac,ala,milk thistle,liv52 won't lower bilirubin and that's the main cause of liver issues on cycle. High bilirubin levels will cause jaundice.tudca,udca,grape seed extract,dandelion root and a few other strong antioxidants will help combat bilirubin buildup
 
heavylifter33

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Are you on mobile? That's probably why you don't see my signature as repping for Vein Nutrition, and the second time you've called me out for 'pimping' or 'shilling', which makes sense if I weren't a rep for a board sponsor my man. I respect your tenacity towards spammers, but I'm only replying to the OP with what I see as the best solution for his needs that is more affordable as well.

If you want the COA you can write to [email protected] and Alex will respond to your inquiry.
Are you a rep? It's not in your signature.



We're still here. :)

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View attachment 148142
I'm well aware you are a rep. And this subforum is not the place to pimp products.

I'm not going to email anyone, you as a rep should have access or can get access to labs for your products. I happen to know how much TUDCA sources for, so if you come in saying that your product is dosed higher than products already competitively priced... that makes my spidey senses tingle. So, do us/me a favor and post up relevant lab work showing dosage and purity of your product. Thank you.
 
tyga tyga

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Have to enjoy the internet white knights.

Since the company is PAYING to be an active sponsor on this board, reps have the right to recommend products they sell to any member; especially if it fits within the question.
 
justhere4comm

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I'm well aware you are a rep. And this subforum is not the place to pimp products.

I'm not going to email anyone, you as a rep should have access or can get access to labs for your products. I happen to know how much TUDCA sources for, so if you come in saying that your product is dosed higher than products already competitively priced... that makes my spidey senses tingle. So, do us/me a favor and post up relevant lab work showing dosage and purity of your product. Thank you.
60 caps / 250mg ea. for CEL's TUDCA
60 caps /500mg ea. for Vein Nutrition's Liver IV w/ NAC and Milk Thistle
I'll let the OP shop around for the best price for CEL's TUDCA and compare it to ours.

The three bottle special is even better. $149.95 / 3, equating to $50 / bottle less 10% discount $45 / bottle.

Liver_IV_Supplement_Facts_69a324c6-f78a-44ce-b551-7580407c4f0e_large.png

There you go. Have a nice weekend What is on the label is what is inside the bottle.
Like I stated before, if you want the COA [email protected] and it will be provided.
 
heavylifter33

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STRONG fukkin dodge lmao. A rep that can't provide any proof of quality and quantity for their product. You should probably gtfo this forum.
 
justhere4comm

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STRONG fukkin dodge lmao. A rep that can't provide any proof of quality and quantity for their product. You should probably gtfo this forum.
Not a dodge rather a legitimate answer.

Anyone can request a COA. Just like I posted.
 
VeinNutrition

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I'm well aware you are a rep. And this subforum is not the place to pimp products.

I'm not going to email anyone, you as a rep should have access or can get access to labs for your products. I happen to know how much TUDCA sources for, so if you come in saying that your product is dosed higher than products already competitively priced... that makes my spidey senses tingle. So, do us/me a favor and post up relevant lab work showing dosage and purity of your product. Thank you.
STRONG fukkin dodge lmao. A rep that can't provide any proof of quality and quantity for their product. You should probably gtfo this forum.
I'd ask that you treat all forum members respectfully and there's no need to include such negativity when we're all apart of one community. Our rep has responded to you with all the information available to him and in a respectful manner, I'd ask that you show the same respect that he has shown you.

Our reps are not full-time employees, and even full-time employees would have limited access to certain financial and security items. If you want direct access to our company, please direct them to me rather than our reps. A simple email to our support email is all it takes.

Our product is extremely competitively priced, anyone can search the price of raw TUDCA powder online and see how competitively priced we are. You're looking anywhere from $1-2/g depending on the volume you buy. This is just the raw material price and does not include the other ingredients, manufacturing, encapsulation, bottles, labels, labeling, etc.

Our manufacturer for Liver IV is GMP certified and we have included this on the label, if you want to contact us we will provide the GMP documents with sensitive information removed. I've requested the most recent CoA of our Liver IV batch, it may take us a few days to get it because our rep has to go through another department to get the paper copy. We've done 3rd party testing in the past of the raw material from this manufacturer, we can share it with you but you'll need to email us and we'll need you to sign a form as well as get an approval from the 3rd party testing lab because it says directly on the CoA "The result(s) stated in this report is only for the sample submitted. This report may not be reproduced in whole or in part, nor may any reference be made to this work, the result, or the company in any news release, public announcements or advertising without our prior written consent."

TUDCA also has a very distinct and strong bitter taste. Anyone can open up one of our capsules and try to taste even a small speck of the mix and report back to us how it tastes. Or if you're brave enough, try to take the entire dose of the capsule contents by opening and orally ingesting. The bitterness is overwhelming. Is is one the easiest tells that you have legitimate TUDCA.

It's fine to have some skepticism, especially in the supplement industry. But we can debate and discuss it in a civil matter. All our AM reps are guys who are not salaried and not employees of the company, they are guys who believe in our company and want to be apart of the company and recommend products they think would legitimately benefit users to some degree. Therefore, it's frustrating to see my reps attacked on a personal level. If you have a strong issue with our reps or our company, tag me VeinNutrition and I'll address it as soon as possible. Let's keep the AM community a place where we can have open discussions with a positive atmosphere.
 
Jiigzz

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TUDCA at $1-$2 per gram, and your total gram per bottle is 30g means at best the tudca alone cost $30 per bottle and at worst it is $60 per bottle. That doesn't include your overheads or other ingredients in that bottle.

It can be done based on the lower end cost, and I just presume vein will be taking a hit on this one
 
VeinNutrition

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TUDCA at $1-$2 per gram, and your total gram per bottle is 30g means at best the tudca alone cost $30 per bottle and at worst it is $60 per bottle. That doesn't include your overheads or other ingredients in that bottle.
Correct, and we've actually looked around for cheaper sources but both times we found pricing in the $0.6-0.7 per gram range, the raw ingredient tested at no TUDCA detected and did not have the distinct TUDCA taste. These were both sources out of the verified sources our current manufacture were using. Now we just use the source the manufacture has vetted because it's tested at 95% purity. We're closer to the $1 side of the range because we're running larger runs, the $2/g range is more of the consumer pricing when buying from places like Powder City (RIP, great company IMO). Our Liver IV product, we're making much smaller margins, and if you factory in the 3 pack + athlete/affiliate coupon, we don't make much profit on this item. But we feel from a marketing standpoint, $50-60 is kind of the upper range that customers will comfortably pay for a single product, especially with a new company without an established history. We're not sure we can command a $70/bottle item price point right now.

What are your thoughts?
 
DUbz86

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Correct, and we've actually looked around for cheaper sources but both times we found pricing in the $0.6-0.7 per gram range, the raw ingredient tested at no TUDCA detected and did not have the distinct TUDCA taste. These were both sources out of the verified sources our current manufacture were using. Now we just use the source the manufacture has vetted because it's tested at 95% purity. We're closer to the $1 side of the range because we're running larger runs, the $2/g range is more of the consumer pricing when buying from places like Powder City (RIP, great company IMO). Our Liver IV product, we're making much smaller margins, and if you factory in the 3 pack + athlete/affiliate coupon, we don't make much profit on this item. But we feel from a marketing standpoint, $50-60 is kind of the upper range that customers will comfortably pay for a single product, especially with a new company without an established history. We're not sure we can command a $70/bottle item price point right now.

What are your thoughts?
Tudca and nac are great together I know they are expensive but my go to for any orals. But I have taken some tudca I found questionable. I would pay more for a quality product. I feel most supplements should be bottled in 30 day quantity and some tudca products only have 30 day supply at 500 mg when typically 750 -1000 mg is daily dose
 
VeinNutrition

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Tudca and nac are great together I know they are expensive but my go to for any orals. But I have taken some tudca I found questionable. I would pay more for a quality product. I feel most supplements should be bottled in 30 day quantity and some tudca products only have 30 day supply at 500 mg when typically 750 -1000 mg is daily dose
A good way to test your TUDCA is just taste the raw powder, it is extremely bitter. We suggest anywhere from 1-4 capsules really depending on what you're taking. There's a large discrepancy because some people are taking weaker orals like anavar, prohormones, mild orals like dianabol, anadrol, or very toxic orals like superdrol, methyl tren,etc. But according to this dose response study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8674405 , 500mg/day is the most economical dose so our product is actually a 2 month supply at the most economical dose. But of course, the duration it lasts depends more upon how many liver toxic compounds you are taking.
 
DUbz86

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Yeah I've never opened a cap and tasted it. How bitter should it be?
 
VeinNutrition

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Yeah I've never opened a cap and tasted it. How bitter should it be?
Extremely bitter. Just a small amount will have you cringing and if you take the whole capsule it should knock you off your feet, figuratively speaking. The reason for this is that it is originates from bile, originally bear bile but now is synthetically produced.
 
DUbz86

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Extremely bitter. Just a small amount will have you cringing and if you take the whole capsule it should knock you off your feet, figuratively speaking. The reason for this is that it is originates from bile, originally bear bile but now is synthetically produced.
Yea probably worse than raw mk677 that **** is terrible. But I can tell with or without​ tudca on an oral. Not a believer in milk thistle but nac and tudca are amazing. But I like to start tudca week before and run after a week.
 
VeinNutrition

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Yea probably worse than raw mk677 that **** is terrible. But I can tell with or without​ tudca on an oral. Not a believer in milk thistle but nac and tudca are amazing. But I like to start tudca week before and run after a week.
Just curious, what difference do you feel without TUDCA on an oral? The most obvious signs of liver stress are loss of appetite and lethargy.
 
DUbz86

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Just curious, what difference do you feel without TUDCA on an oral? The most obvious signs of liver stress are loss of appetite and lethargy.
Exactly like you said sides are worse even with test base. But I can can feel it in my abdomen running DMZ or msten without quality tudca. Makes me cramp and back pumps terrible. I just feel better when I bump up dose. If I feel that way. I'm no scientist but listen to my body and upping dose has helped.
 
Nac

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Tudca and nac are great together I know they are expensive
You consider nac expensive? Its not creatine mono cheap, but its at least half the price of tudca if not cheaper.
 
DUbz86

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You consider nac expensive? Its not creatine mono cheap, but its at least half the price of tudca if not cheaper.
Nac is cheap tudca can get expensive
 
VeinNutrition

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Exactly like you said sides are worse even with test base. But I can can feel it in my abdomen running DMZ or msten without quality tudca. Makes me cramp and back pumps terrible. I just feel better when I bump up dose. If I feel that way. I'm no scientist but listen to my body and upping dose has helped.
Hey, no need to be a scientist, you know your body the best. And if something is working for you, then keep doing it. I always say, everyone has a different body chemistry. What works great for one person may not for another.
 
DUbz86

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Hey, no need to be a scientist, you know your body the best. And if something is working for you, then keep doing it. I always say, everyone has a different body chemistry. What works great for one person may not for another.
But it's nuts cause I know some old school cats that don't believe in support sups hell they drink on dbol I tried to tell them. They just are use the the old methods
 
VeinNutrition

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You consider nac expensive? Its not creatine mono cheap, but its at least half the price of tudca if not cheaper.
Nac is cheap tudca can get expensive
Raw ingredient pricing is no secret these days, for most ingredients you can just google "x powder" or "x bulk powder" and get a rough idea of the cost. NAC is very cheap, you looks like can get a kilogram from Bulk Supplements for around $45 right now.
 
Nac

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What are your thoughts?
1) bump the nac up to 600mg a cap, seems a little like a token dose at 100

2) take the nac out altogether, its cheap and if I wanna use it I prefer 600-1200mg dosing (I dont know any consumer preferentially dosing nac <300mg on-cycle)

Unless you have a compelling reason for dosing 100mg...
 
VeinNutrition

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But it's nuts cause I know some old school cats that don't believe in support sups hell they drink on dbol I tried to tell them. They just are use the the old methods
Yes, old school they didn't PCT off either. They'd just come off cycle cold turkey.
 
DUbz86

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Raw ingredient pricing is no secret these days, for most ingredients you can just google "x powder" or "x bulk powder" and get a rough idea of the cost. NAC is very cheap, you looks like can get a kilogram from Bulk Supplements for around $45 right now.
Yea I work in financials and depends on the quality of work you need done what you pay. Anyone can make you a spreadsheet at home but feel like supplment industry is tough I mean if you get ripped off and done don't potential could hurt someone unintentionally
 

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Ehm guys, a question about dosing of Nac and Tudca for a 6weeks with two orals like epi and halo or epi and oxa; will be enough to run tudca at 500/500/500/750/750/750 and Nac @ 3grams a day everyday??
 
DUbz86

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Yes, old school they didn't PCT off either. They'd just come off cycle cold turkey.
Yea I lift with a few and say I waste money on support supps and pct. But they never come off blast and cruise and I'm only 30 don't need to kill my endocrine system then get hurt and not be able to work out. But it's crazy hearing how they deal with e2 prolactin and everything. They believe the body will just stabilize hormones eventually. But then again these guys are huge and know their body. To them the liver regenerates and will recover. To me I would rather prevent or aid this process
 
VeinNutrition

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1) bump the nac up to 600mg a cap, seems a little like a token dose at 100

2) take the nac out altogether, its cheap and if I wanna use it I prefer 600-1200mg dosing (I dont know any consumer preferentially dosing nac <300mg on-cycle)

Unless you have a compelling reason for dosing 100mg...
1. We could bump the NAC up to 600, but then it'd have to be twice the amount of capsules. And NAC is very cheap whereas TUDCA is the real star in our Liver IV. We take the same approach to caffeine in our pre-workout products - no more than 200mg of caffeine per serving in our preworkouts. Caffeine is such a cheap ingredient, if you wanted to add more it's much more economical to just go out and buy caffeine pills. We're about value in our products, so the cheaper stuff we don't put a lot of, you can go out and get it at a much cheaper price from larger companies in a single ingredient product and then just stack it as necessary with our product.

2. For those who want to take a higher dose of NAC, we would recommend either buying the pure powder or buying it in a capsule form from a large company like NOW, where you can get 100 capsules of 600mg for $11. It'd be much cheaper to buy that and stack with our product rather than for us to increase our NAC dosage to 600mg, so we're about bringing value to the customer. As for why we have it in the first place - we have 700mg of capsule space to work with. 500mg per capsule makes the most sense according to clinical studies and we have an extra 200mg, would you prefer filler powder or some NAC and Milk Thistle? We think the latter brings more value, again bringing about that that customer value.
 
VeinNutrition

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Ehm guys, a question about dosing of Nac and Tudca for a 6weeks with two orals like epi and halo or epi and oxa; will be enough to run tudca at 500/500/500/750/750/750 and Nac @ 3grams a day everyday??
I'd recommend starting the TUDCA at 500 and the NAC at 1-3g (it's cheap so if you want to start higher it's not a big difference). Then see how your body feels, let your body tell you how to dose, go up if you're feeling tired or loss in appetite and adjust as necessary. Even better is to get blood work done and adjust according to your values.
 
Nac

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500mg per capsule makes the most sense according to clinical studies and we have an extra 200mg, would you prefer filler powder or some NAC and Milk Thistle? We think the latter brings more value, again bringing about that that customer value.
Id prefer filler powder.

Totes serious, not being facetious.

Like, your "dichotomy" has good intentions (100mg of nac is surely better than 100mg rice powder!!) but, if Im on fire, two droplets of water is certainly in-my-best-interests and ya Id be a fool to decline?

I can make some pretty rudimentary assumptions as to why youve put the nac in there, for sales/marketing/psych reasons; as you said, somethin better than nowt! So of course, catering to a 1% who might be casually impressed that a company was dosing LEGIT across the board is not really worth the effort in some cases (as a 1%'er, Id prefer to see/use a significant dose of a compound, not an Oliver "please sir, can I have some more?" dose).
 

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