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KLEEN - STRONG BODY STRONG MIND!

I had a good night out with the family yesterday. Company gave us tickets to see Shrek the Musical. Was a nice production for sure, and they added in even more up to date hidden adult humor too.

I went with a bigger deficit yesterday just to avoid going over with my limited meal options in the evening. To me I look tighter this morning than I have been. We will see how things go though for tomorrow seeing that it will be after a massive influx of carbs from the postworkout window.

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That’s exactly what I did Wednesday for a bday dinner to account for the restaurant prep.

8oz sirloin, salad, sweet potato “plain”. That thing is clearly baked with butter and brown sugar already; it’s like candy - lots of extra cals hidden in what they cook with.

When I worked at a Ponderosa a decade ago, we soaked the steaks in herb butter to marinate them.
 
Hyde said:
That’s exactly what I did Wednesday for a bday dinner to account for the restaurant prep.

8oz sirloin, salad, sweet potato “plain”. That thing is clearly baked with butter and brown sugar already; it’s like candy - lots of extra cals hidden in what they cook with.

When I worked at a Ponderosa a decade ago, we soaked the steaks in herb butter to marinate them.
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Yeah, you have to plan on these things or try... No way, that is crazy on soaking steaks in butter. I actually don't like butter on my steaks.

Funny thing on the food from yesterday is my estimates were high on the fat and carb portions just trying to account for any hidden calories like that. In reality it was a chicken breast sandwich about 15 fries, and 1/3 pack of peanut M&M's the wife was eating in the car on the way home. So really 100 grams is a stretch, and so is the fat content being listed @ 30g for that "meal".
 
Hyde said:
When I worked at a Ponderosa a decade ago, we soaked the steaks in herb butter to marinate them.
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The big steak chain up here (The Keg), 'paint' their steaks in a melted herb butter before it hits the table. No wonder its so damn tasty! lol
 
wasme said:
The big steak chain up here (The Keg), 'paint' their steaks in a melted herb butter before it hits the table. No wonder its so damn tasty! lol
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Mmm...
 
I try to remember to ask them not to do this when I go out for a steak.
 
wasme said:
The only reason i know this restaurant does is a guy i work with has a side gig as a waiter there.
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They do this with the sirloins at Chili's, I always make sure to ask them not too. If they are going to put anything on my steak put a good chimichurri sauce on it not butter please...

Had some good workouts Friday and Saturday, not going to get into them here now I don't feel like typing it all up. Feeling lazy today, didn't sleep well at all and had an upset stomach. Easter food... go figure. My son came by and we sat outside and chatted and finished off a half bottle of Knob Creek. Ate BBQ directly of the pit all day so I have no idea what all I ate. Also had a big strawberry daquari with my other son. He doesn't like whiskey... So this morning I am holding a bit of water.

Here are my pics from this week. I was 208 on the nose, down from 209.3 at the last weigh in. Not as far down as I would have liked but I will take it with the crazy week I head the week before last.

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this one the camera went off just as I walked up so it was candid and not tightened. Gives an idea of what I look like not tightening in any way. To me I actually look leaner in this pic. Could just be that the light from the window is not washing me out as bad...

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That’s not a bad 208 at all. Maybe you should add 5mg Var for the last month of the contest, ala Spurfy - if that would mentally fire you up some, it would certainly be worth having to move to the enhanced category in your transformation challenge thread. You seemed very interested in his method and I must say he raises some great points.

I know it’s extremely common for some women to never come off it completely even in the strength world, although my gf does.
 
Hyde said:
That’s not a bad 208 at all. Maybe you should add 5mg Var for the last month of the contest, ala Spurfy - if that would mentally fire you up some, it would certainly be worth having to move to the enhanced category in your transformation challenge thread. You seemed very interested in his method and I must say he raises some great points.

I know it’s extremely common for some women to never come off it completely even in the strength world, although my gf does.
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I have to admit this is something I am heavily considering. I like the info he is putting out and am really wanting to give it a test run. It also has me thinking about hooking up a 5mg dose every night for the wife to help her maintain some of her muscle. Be nice to get some of it back, she tends to waste away every time here stomach goes through a cycle, that could help, and of course wouldn't hurt the libido to have a 6 PM dose each night either. ;)
hairygrandpa said:
You look a tiny bit slimmer from the side view.
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Thanks HGP! I think this next few weeks is going to change things up some more for me. I am locking down caloric totals more than anything else right now. One month in the 2000 calories range should make a nice difference.

Last night was a planned rest day, so just took the dogs for a long walk with my daughter. I guess it was about 45 minutes and my boy was hyper and pulling on his chain yesterday so it ended up being more of a workout than I wanted. He is fine when we walk by ourselves but he wants to be with the other dog when walking together so he was constantly trying to pull me where ever she was but if he got close he would try and romp with her and get tied up in the leashes...

He is a bit too big for the nonsense he pulled though and I don't want to have to spank him or have him trying to choke himself out on the slip lead so I am going to see if i can't put him in training. The last place we took him food trained him and he will do anything you want for food but if you don't have any food, good luck. Also if he sees us with food he thinks he needs to be up in our faces that he should be getting some too. So now even my usual attempts to train him don't work. I believe he is going to need a good training collar to understand he needs to listen or get shocked from some unknown all seeing entity who wants him to behave... A dog this big he needs to understand that my entire family is over him, not just be me because I am the obvious alpha. He listens to me if not too crazy excited but the wife and kids... not so much.

Tonight will be an upper body weight session. I am really looking forward to it.
 
Oh man var makes the ladies come alive with the fever, no doubt - it would definitely enhance your relationship! And it really will help with her wasting, in a permanent fashion.

Honestly I would right now based on everything he’s presented (getting bloods this week actually so I would have a baseline to monitor health) but we’re going to Norway for Strongest Woman in the World end of July so I’m definitely not gonna be allowed to use her stash - she’s trying to qualify for the Arnold Pro Show again!
 
Hyde said:
Oh man var makes the ladies come alive with the fever, no doubt - it would definitely enhance your relationship! And it really will help with her wasting, in a permanent fashion.

Honestly I would right now based on everything he’s presented (getting bloods this week actually so I would have a baseline to monitor health) but we’re going to Norway for Strongest Woman in the World end of July so I’m definitely not gonna be allowed to use her stash - she’s trying to qualify for the Arnold Pro Show again!
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Awesome! Yeah, I am going to hit him up and see if I have a decent understanding of how he was saying to set things up. This would also go well with a Carb Back Loading type of diet, getting all the anabolics in just before bed with a massive meal all directly after training... Yeah this could work out quite well.

If I am correct it was 30g of Creatine Mono in the AM, and then just the dose of Var in the evenings. So much info in that thread in between those arguing ideological steroid nonsense with a pharmacologist. I hate it when someone who actually has a lot of info tries to bring some idea to the forefront and all the flat earthers come screaming, but that's not in line with our bro logic!!!! I don't think it is the strongest anabolic of all time but no doubt it is one of the best for me!!!
 
MrKleen73 said:
Awesome! Yeah, I am going to hit him up and see if I have a decent understanding of how he was saying to set things up. This would also go well with a Carb Back Loading type of diet, getting all the anabolics in just before bed with a massive meal all directly after training... Yeah this could work out quite well.

If I am correct it was 30g of Creatine Mono in the AM, and then just the dose of Var in the evenings. So much info in that thread in between those arguing ideological steroid nonsense with a pharmacologist. I hate it when someone who actually has a lot of info tries to bring some idea to the forefront and all the flat earthers come screaming, but that's not in line with our bro logic!!!! I don't think it is the strongest anabolic of all time but no doubt it is one of the best for me!!!
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I think more people would agree, if they could get legit and/or afford it haha
 
He is also dozing 30mg of Toremifene daily, not that you would need it with your script test base. Otherwise yes you have the entire protocol there.

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to wrap their heads around. Mg for mg, it’s the most anabolic compound that’s been heavily studied and proved for humans. That alone should be sufficient to pique interest. Newsflash: you can take it WITH other gear it’s so mild! You don’t have to pick sides.

And my gf has always had more muscle after every cycle - strength falls off some (do to the lack of ATP synthesis) but every run she gets more muscular and stronger than before the last. She’s all the proof I need that the gains really do stick.
 
booneman77 said:
I think more people would agree, if they could get legit and/or afford it haha
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Absolutely. For me anyone who doesn't like it must have gotten bunk stuff or severely under eaten on it.
Hyde said:
He is also dozing 30mg of Toremifene daily, not that you would need it with your script test base. Otherwise yes you have the entire protocol there.

I don’t understand why it’s so hard for people to wrap their heads around. Mg for mg, it’s the most anabolic compound that’s been heavily studied and proved for humans. That alone should be sufficient to pique interest. Newsflash: you can take it WITH other gear it’s so mild! You don’t have to pick sides.

And my gf has always had more muscle after every cycle - strength falls off some (do to the lack of ATP synthesis) but every run she gets more muscular and stronger than before the last. She’s all the proof I need that the gains really do stick.
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Thats what I thought regarding the protocol, and the Torem. Funny thing is I have some at the house if for some reason it helped in some other way. I have actually contemplated running it to see if it helped get my nuts a little bigger... I know that Clomid is supposed to help with that for people on TRT as well. Also some people are now on 25mg of clomid daily instead of Test for TRT and staying in the 800 range... If I could do that instead of TRT I think I would.

I think I am going to go ahead and do this as my interest is peaked and my motivation could use a serious kick in the pants. I asked a couple questions to him in that thread after going and looking at stuff just to make sure on a few things but the protocol seems like it really couldn't get too much easier.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Absolutely. For me anyone who doesn't like it must have gotten bunk stuff or severely under eaten on it.


Thats what I thought regarding the protocol, and the Torem. Funny thing is I have some at the house if for some reason it helped in some other way. I have actually contemplated running it to see if it helped get my nuts a little bigger... I know that Clomid is supposed to help with that for people on TRT as well. Also some people are now on 25mg of clomid daily instead of Test for TRT and staying in the 800 range... If I could do that instead of TRT I think I would.

I think I am going to go ahead and do this as my interest is peaked and my motivation could use a serious kick in the pants. I asked a couple questions to him in that thread after going and looking at stuff just to make sure on a few things but the protocol seems like it really couldn't get too much easier.
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You guys make me want to try anavar... Lol
 
I have to train mornings (which is when competitions are), I train long heavy strength sessions and will NEVER train fasted because performance is the goal, not physique, and will therefore never fast on training days, BUT I see no reason why his protocol wouldn’t still be effective. It just won’t have as profound fat-burning or nutrient partitioning due to a lesser GH-level increase. The increased muscle density, training response, and enhanced ATP utilization would still be massively beneficial.
 
Hyde said:
I have to train mornings (which is when competitions are), I train long heavy strength sessions and will NEVER train fasted because performance is the goal, not physique, and will therefore never fast on training days, BUT I see no reason why his protocol wouldn’t still be effective. It just won’t have as profound fat-burning or nutrient partitioning due to a lesser GH-level increase. The increased muscle density, training response, and enhanced ATP utilization would still be massively beneficial.
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No doubt and I have always done well on fasting so this does not bother me in the least. I am also not training for performance right now. Yes I want to get better at bodyweight stuff still but I can do that fasted as well. If i get good at it fasted then I will just perform that much better when I add in food for fuel to improve performance...

If I were doing strongman then I would be with you and say no way I can do that, it is not conducive to the goals of the training. I agree though the difference will not be too big, or one would not think it would anyway.

This is going to be fun guys. Now I am gonna go home and get started on this since i have everything i need at the house for this. We will use my most recent pics from this weekend as my starting point.
 
So where is this thread with all the knowledge? Im interested in reading it. If its enough to have you two fired up I trust it to be good.
 
jswain34 said:
So where is this thread with all the knowledge? Im interested in reading it. If its enough to have you two fired up I trust it to be good.
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There is some knowledge in here for sure!
 
jswain34 said:
I most definitely agree. Im just talking about the one they keep referencing :).
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Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301677

There’s a ton of posts, derails, TLDR opinions, moot points, but the gist of the interesting point is this:

Var is safe enough that this guy has been cruising on 5mg/day it for a couple years now, along with Toremifene at 30mg/day, with no issue - and the SERM is keeping his natural production strong, so it needs no test base. He will blast for 8wks at 30mg of Var often, but because this isn’t enough to shut him down through the SERM or hurt his bloods he needs no PCT at any point (even if he wanted to just cold turkey stop the var and Toremifene).

No gyno, no sides, no pct, no needles, everything dosed once a day, no shutdown or infertility, no health issues.

But var is unique in that it actually creates new muscle cells instead of growing existing ones the way other androgens do, so the gains are dry and permanent. It causes large increases in endogenous HGH levels & simultaneously burns fat as it builds new lean tissue. It’s not metabolized by the liver but rather the kidneys, and actually heals the liver.

Also, the main way it increases athletic performance is novel in that (instead of up regulation of the neuromuscular system like most androgens, tren for example) it jacks up ATP utilization massively - Var is a very weak androgen. So what this means is you can use a ton of creatine to supercharge your strength gains on blast with it. Also, for unknown reasons, the more caffeine you can enjoy on var, the better results you will enjoy.

Basically 8 weeks on/8 off - 5mg/30mg pre-training is his protocol, 30mg Toremifene and 30g creatine dissolved in hot coffee every morning always.

He takes the Var at 6pm since muscle is built at night and to optimize HGH (and avoid any lethargy from the var), along with intermittent fasting until post training (and he always trains at night).

The drug protocol would work regardless of training time and eating schedule though. The caffeine is the only unexplained component and least relevant in my opinion.

Whew.
 
Hmm. Thanks for the summary man, very much appreciated. That is verryyyyyy interesting....is there any specific reason that he uses torem instead of 12.5-25mg clomid? I know the downfalls of nolva but generally thought clomid was what most preferred.
 
christ83189 said:
You guys make me want to try anavar... Lol
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It's awesome and feels so good compared to the designer steroids like Epistane, DMZ and the like.
Rocket3015 said:
I know what you mean !!
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It's the bomb!
Hyde said:
Excited for you to light the fuse, brother
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Thanks me too! Already got started on the run last night. Kind of cool I had just about everything at the house already. I need to buy some Vitamin K, but otherwise I just happend to have the Vit D, Var, and the Torem, and keep several health staples for lipids and liver in my rotation at all times.
jswain34 said:
So where is this thread with all the knowledge? Im interested in reading it. If its enough to have you two fired up I trust it to be good.
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I'll post the link below but forewarning, the thread gets heated and volatile. However a lot of damn good info in there.
Rocket3015 said:
There is some knowledge in here for sure!
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Thanks Rocket!
jswain34 said:
I most definitely agree. Im just talking about the one they keep referencing :).
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Okay here is the link to it. It is going to be one of those you will probably enter into with bias in one direction or another. So just read through all of it before making up your mind on anything it says or you may be too biased to get good info out of it.

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Last night was a good night. I started by getting my daughter outside. I am trying to do more active things with her to help her with some of her goals. She will do things with me but wants to work into things by doing stuff she enjoys more... So I asked if she wanted to ride with me was going to be just a quick 2 mile ride to warm up. By the end of it I had convinced her to ride a little over 6 miles with me. We were pushing the pace too, she would try to stay even or a little in front of me and I paced myself so that I had her working hard. She really enjoyed it. All in all that was about 30 minutes.

So I did cardio before working out... Not ideal but who cares, A, it got my daughter involved, and B, my goal is not getting massive, or setting a performance PR. It is just leaning up and maintaining, or growing a little with the Var added in.

Warm Up - 6+ miles biking with daughter right at 30 minutes...
Secondary Warm Up - Complex of Shoulder Rolls, Band work, Leg Swings, Wrist stretches and planks.

A) Squat Jump+2 broad jumps - 5 rounds, this did get a little easier this time, better coordination.

B1) Multi-Angle DB Chest press - Incline - 70x12, 80x12, Flat 80x12, 80x12
B2) Rear Delt Flies - 15x15 x 4 sets

C1) BB Floor Press - 165x8, 185x8, 8, 8, 8 last set was RPE9
C2) Mixed Grip Pull Ups - Wide 6, 5, OH 4, Chin 3, 4 - man the short rest periods are brutal...

D1) Band Pullaparts - 100 reps in 3 sets
D2) Band Triceps Ext 100 reps in 3 sets Had that there pump going on pretty good even with no carbs for the day at this point.

I definitely noticed not having carbs in my pre/intra drink. Performance was better in some areas and harder in others, but I could definitely feel the lack of continuous fuel source during the workout. Thats good though, it means it made me dig and made a deficit...

My post workout meal was not a counted macro situation. I knew already I was coming in decently low on the caloric levels so I wasn't too worried about going into any bad territory. Here is what it looked like and some estimates on the food consumption. I still had a good bit via shake.

Nutrition early in day -
5 eggs 1 ounce of cheese and one chicken sausage
8 oz 93/7 turkey, 1 slice cheese, and 5 servings of olives.

Post workout Shake - 40p, 110 carbs ) fats
Post Workout Meal - 8 oz 93/7 in spaghetti sauce, 2 cups spaghetti noodles.

Estimated total for the day - - 213p, 78.5 f, and 222 carbs = 2447 total calories +/- 100 cals

Things of note, 40mg Var at 6:00PM, preworkout about 6:30, and actual lifting was 7:30-8:30ish.

Also 30g of creatine melted in a 32oz morning coffee changes the flavor a bit... had to put an extra splenda or two in there to back off the mild aftertaste. It has also taken me longer to finish it.

The protocol he said was going to be the best for this was to do One Meal A Day post workout or just in the evening on off days. So that is typically going to be the plan but if I don't make it then any meals before training will not have anything but trace carbs.

Today I had 8 oz of Sirloin at lunch trimmed off of picanah, with about 2 tbls chimichurri sauce. I was going to fast all day today but this stuff is only available down here on Wednesdays at lunch for a few more weeks. So I am taking advantage of it. Otherwise it requires me to go to a Churrascaria which ends up being $35-90 a plate. I can get this for $1.09 per oz prepared so it is a steel. I won't eat again until after training tonight though...

It will be a bodyweight workout with some sprinting and what not so it is going to be a beast!!!!
 
Hyde said:
Liver damage from oral AAS greatly exggerated:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301677

There’s a ton of posts, derails, TLDR opinions, moot points, but the gist of the interesting point is this:

Var is safe enough that this guy has been cruising on 5mg/day it for a couple years now, along with Toremifene at 30mg/day, with no issue - and the SERM is keeping his natural production strong, so it needs no test base. He will blast for 8wks at 30mg of Var often, but because this isn’t enough to shut him down through the SERM or hurt his bloods he needs no PCT at any point (even if he wanted to just cold turkey stop the var and Toremifene).

No gyno, no sides, no pct, no needles, everything dosed once a day, no shutdown or infertility, no health issues.

But var is unique in that it actually creates new muscle cells instead of growing existing ones the way other androgens do, so the gains are dry and permanent. It causes large increases in endogenous HGH levels & simultaneously burns fat as it builds new lean tissue. It’s not metabolized by the liver but rather the kidneys, and actually heals the liver.

Also, the main way it increases athletic performance is novel in that (instead of up regulation of the neuromuscular system like most androgens, tren for example) it jacks up ATP utilization massively - Var is a very weak androgen. So what this means is you can use a ton of creatine to supercharge your strength gains on blast with it. Also, for unknown reasons, the more caffeine you can enjoy on var, the better results you will enjoy.

Basically 8 weeks on/8 off - 5mg/30mg pre-training is his protocol, 30mg Toremifene and 30g creatine dissolved in hot coffee every morning always.

He takes the Var at 6pm since muscle is built at night and to optimize HGH (and avoid any lethargy from the var), along with intermittent fasting until post training (and he always trains at night).

The drug protocol would work regardless of training time and eating schedule though. The caffeine is the only unexplained component and least relevant in my opinion.

Whew.
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Well that beats the pants off of me telling them to read the whole thread! Most of which is people without medical degrees calling this Doctor of Pharmacology a liar and idiot because it doesn't fit into their the world is flat point of view.

jswain34 said:
Hmm. Thanks for the summary man, very much appreciated. That is verryyyyyy interesting....is there any specific reason that he uses torem instead of 12.5-25mg clomid? I know the downfalls of nolva but generally thought clomid was what most preferred.
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Not sure, other than some people can get pretty sensitive on the clomid. He really said any SERM other than Nolva, as he said it is basically still poison to the system. I am more than willing to bet 25mg of clomid would do the trick as well. I just happen to have a stash of torem, one of the things I was about to sell but since he mentioned using it even though I am on TRT, I am going to give it a shot. If nothing else hopefully it will return volume to my testes. Heck if it actually worked well I wouldn't be above trying to see if my doctor would let me try it instead of TRT for a bit. If not my PCP, I think my endo would because he is into a lot of superficial treatments. His face is so frozen from botox he looks plastic. He offers botox as part of the keep yourself young package. LOL

He also prescribes metformin for people who want to lean up... So I know he isn't above trying out some interesting stuff so long as he gets paid.
 
I did that protocol with an employee who didn't wanted to pin, following spurfy's advise. The employee couldn't afford Var and he went with 50mg T-bol instead.
Cycle was:
-Torem 30/30/30/60/60/60
-T-bol 50/50/50/50/50/50

No Pct

By week 5 he developed peripheral edema on his right foot from Torem (look it up, its a known side effect), so he cut the cycle at week five.

No suppression was noted at all, libido great, everything great, T-bol was legit and tested by me with a test kit, he made good gains in 5 weeks.
 
HP, awesome feedback.

Clomid would work too he said, but he mentioned it messing with SHBG over time I believe. Ralox even could work, but he was saying 120mg of Ralox (50-60 is normal dose for gyno control) was needed for the same FSH/LH stimulation.
 
Hyde said:
HP, awesome feedback.

Clomid would work too he said, but he mentioned it messing with SHBG over time I believe. Ralox even could work, but he was saying 120mg of Ralox (50-60 is normal dose for gyno control) was needed for the same FSH/LH stimulation.
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Good catch on the SHGB I must have missed that part. So much traffic in that thread I noticed I missed several things and had to go back to reread.
hairygrandpa, I am going to look that up as well. I am curious if the var will perform even better since he said some of the things in the protocol were specific to how var operates. I consider Var and Tbol to be very similar in feel, and effect, but not sure about specific mechanisms being the same. IE not sure this method would have actually improved how TBol works like it is supposed to with Var. Maybe I will get even better results than he did if things go well.

Off to read about that edema now... by the way did it clear up on it's own once he got off or did it require some medical intervention to correct?
 
Hyde said:
HP, awesome feedback.

Clomid would work too he said, but he mentioned it messing with SHBG over time I believe. Ralox even could work, but he was saying 120mg of Ralox (50-60 is normal dose for gyno control) was needed for the same FSH/LH stimulation.
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Ralox can have some nasty sides too, including edema, wouldn't use it at such a high dose. From all the Serms, Torem seems more benign.
The var-thing, well, first you have to get your hands on legit var. We are talking long time var at low dosage -but how the hell can anyone be sure that their var is dosed properly?
The other objection I have to var as the supposed super-duper -and most anabolic stuff is. The Anabolic/Androgenic ratio is not reliable. Look at T-bol vs Anavar vs Proviron:
-Var: 322-630:24
-T-bol: 80-100:>0
-Proviron: 30-40/100-150


T-bol is at least as effective as Anavar when it comes to mass building, IMHO its mg x mg more potent. How can that be, when its 3-6 times less anabolic (underdosed var could be the excuse)?
Next: Proviron. We all know by experience that it does virtually nothing for mass. If you take 40mg/d T-bol vs 100mg/d Proviron (to even out potency), you will see none results from Proviron and moderate results from Tbol after the end of the cycle.

IMHO:
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio is not a reliable guide to the in vivo potency of a compound. Anavar, as the ideal mass builder = over hyped. Its a less toxic oral with interesting properties.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Good catch on the SHGB I must have missed that part. So much traffic in that thread I noticed I missed several things and had to go back to reread.
hairygrandpa, I am going to look that up as well. I am curious if the var will perform even better since he said some of the things in the protocol were specific to how var operates. I consider Var and Tbol to be very similar in feel, and effect, but not sure about specific mechanisms being the same. IE not sure this method would have actually improved how TBol works like it is supposed to with Var. Maybe I will get even better results than he did if things go well.

Off to read about that edema now... by the way did it clear up on it's own once he got off or did it require some medical intervention to correct?
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Clears up on its own -but foot did not fit any shoe anymore for a few days. Posted a pic here on AM, not sure what thread.
 
hairygrandpa said:
IMHO:
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio is not a reliable guide to the in vivo potency of a compound. Anavar, as the ideal mass builder = over hyped. Its a less toxic oral with interesting properties.
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That thread is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever witnessed. It doesn’t f*cking matter what’s best mg for mg. Tren or var 4 teh gainz bro? How about both! How about whichever fits your personal situation or needs best! Jeezo people are so dumb with their needs to be right or have their OPINIONS be validated by peers.

The point of it all was very low dose var can be run for very long durations “safely”. Then everyone lost their damn minds with a dick-measuring contest.

/end rant
 
Hyde said:
That thread is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever witnessed. It doesn’t f*cking matter what’s best mg for mg. Tren or var 4 teh gainz bro? How about both! How about whichever fits your personal situation or needs best! Jeezo people are so dumb with their needs to be right or have their OPINIONS be validated by peers.

The point of it all was very low dose var can be run for very long durations “safely”. Then everyone lost their damn minds with a dick-measuring contest.

/end rant
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That is exactly what I think of it. :)
Var is interesting as a low toxic/low suppression oral, that is all there is to it. If someone tolerates torem well, the idea to go long term, low dose var(6 month to try, then blood labs) is sound, no need to consult A. Einstein for it.
 
hairygrandpa said:
Ralox can have some nasty sides too, including edema, wouldn't use it at such a high dose. From all the Serms, Torem seems more benign.
The var-thing, well, first you have to get your hands on legit var. We are talking long time var at low dosage -but how the hell can anyone be sure that their var is dosed properly?
The other objection I have to var as the supposed super-duper -and most anabolic stuff is. The Anabolic/Androgenic ratio is not reliable. Look at T-bol vs Anavar vs Proviron:
-Var: 322-630:24
-T-bol: 80-100:>0
-Proviron: 30-40/100-150


T-bol is at least as effective as Anavar when it comes to mass building, IMHO its mg x mg more potent. How can that be, when its 3-6 times less anabolic (underdosed var could be the excuse)?
Next: Proviron. We all know by experience that it does virtually nothing for mass. If you take 40mg/d T-bol vs 100mg/d Proviron (to even out potency), you will see none results from Proviron and moderate results from Tbol after the end of the cycle.

IMHO:
Anabolic/Androgenic ratio is not a reliable guide to the in vivo potency of a compound. Anavar, as the ideal mass builder = over hyped. Its a less toxic oral with interesting properties.
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Yeah, the usefulness of that is really limited to sexual characteristics being strong or not. Typically if it says the androgenic effects are high then they are. How much grouth you are going to get out of them though... sketchy at best... I definitely get more mg per mg from Var than testosterone, but I can't speak to others. I got a little bit more from TBol, but did not get the added benefit of my joints feeling better. That is the reason I choose it over TBol. Interestingly enough a lot of fake anavar is Tbol.

hairygrandpa said:
Clears up on its own -but foot did not fit any shoe anymore for a few days. Posted a pic here on AM, not sure what thread.
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I actually remember the pic, and the instance just not what the specifics were from it.
Hyde said:
That thread is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve ever witnessed. It doesn’t f*cking matter what’s best mg for mg. Tren or var 4 teh gainz bro? How about both! How about whichever fits your personal situation or needs best! Jeezo people are so dumb with their needs to be right or have their OPINIONS be validated by peers.

The point of it all was very low dose var can be run for very long durations “safely”. Then everyone lost their damn minds with a dick-measuring contest.

/end rant
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I agree, but there is also a certain person in that thread that just doesn't get things and insists he knows what he is talking about that spews nonsense that can't be left out there unchecked for others to believe. I see some of his posts and just have to respond...

hairygrandpa said:
That is exactly what I think of it. :)
Var is interesting as a low toxic/low suppression oral, that is all there is to it. If someone tolerates torem well, the idea to go long term, low dose var(6 month to try, then blood labs) is sound, no need to consult A. Einstein for it.
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Yeah, I am thinking to give the idea a shot by going to 5mg for 4-6 weeks after this little blast before going to get my next bloods. If everything is looking good I might just go with it a little longer to see how it goes.

Now this method he has me trying... we shall see. I know regardless I will come out lean on the other end. My diet has changed drastically and my body is already responding to it. Obviously not an effect from the Var or employing this but dropping calories substantially and doing more cardio. Riding bikes with my daughter is helping both of us.

Trinity came out to workout with me last night and it was a beast of a workout. She made me proud considering she hasn't done anything like this stuff in a long while. Some of it never.

We started with a 2 mile bike ride for a warm up, then did 2 times jogging up to the 50 yard line and running back backwards. Rested for 30 seconds then did our sprints.

1) 50 yard dash x 10, rest periods were the walk back from the 50 yard line then we ran again.

Drove back to the house to finish up. We live a mile from the school. I needed to do pull ups and couldn't find a spot at the school to do them...

2) Body Weight Circuit 5 rounds
Mixed Pull Ups x 6 - WG, WG, SWG, SWG, Chin ups for the 5th round I did 9... - really improving on these, no rest pauses needed and had gas in the tank for 9 chins at the end...
Push Ups x 12 - Clapping x12, x12, Feet on Bench Clapping x12, x12, Feet on bench Alternating Single Arm push up x6 per arm I didn't want to spend time setting up the dip station so I went with some harder forms of push ups.
Bodyweight squats x18

Trinity did Recline Ring Rows, Incline Push Ups and Squats for hers. She did really well and worked hard! She was done though, had nothing left after that. It was time for her to go in and get some grub!

3A) Band Pull Aparts - Green band - 25 reps x4 alternating over and underhand each set. - the green band is definitely more challenging than the red.
3B) Hanging Leg Raises 4 sets of 10 - Had to have somewhat bent knee for these otherwise my feet hit the floor hanging from the pull up bar on my power rack. I made up for this by extending my hips and stretching the abs at the bottom and then coming into a hollow position before bringing the legs up the rest of the way. Serious contraction this way, I was impressed.

Negative Ring Curls - 30 second negatives x 3 - done facing away from the rings, with arms bent and elbows behind the back lean forward step back a little to increase the forward lean and resistance then just lower yourself. At the bottom just go to your knees or whatever to get up safely, rest and then repeat. Supposed to be an excellent body weight exercise to increase biceps mass. It was definitely hard, and I can already feel a little bit in my biceps.

Macros - 203p, 49f, 214c - 2108 calories.

I didn't get as much fat as I should have but still solid macros. I don't really like being lower than 80g for very long personally.
 
MrKleen73 said:
That is the reason I choose it over TBol. Interestingly enough a lot of fake anavar is Tbol.
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Considering the price of var, I would spend the extra $ for a "roid test".

Invalid Link Removed

The negative reviews on this product are from people who bought fake var, LOL!
 
hairygrandpa said:
Considering the price of var, I would spend the extra $ for a "roid test".

Invalid Link Removed

The negative reviews on this product are from people who bought fake var, LOL!
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At this point it would just be me spending more money on it. If it is TBol or something it is similar to Var in effect. I already ran one cycle with it. Just got enough for two when I picked it up. I got it from a trusted source, so I feel pretty confident in it.
 
MrKleen73 said:
At this point it would just be me spending more money on it. If it is TBol or something it is similar to Var in effect. I already ran one cycle with it. Just got enough for two when I picked it up. I got it from a trusted source, so I feel pretty confident in it.
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I don't think real anavar that is dosed well is as hard to get as people think. Real anavar is crystally and Winstrol for example is real powdery. If they are capped for example I can usually tell the difference side by side comparison of the raws. If its pressed in tablets or in suspended in liquid then well who knows lol.

I think tbol and anavar are similar but a few differences give it away for me...
On anavar I get the hella pumps (even at just 20- 40 mg) within 24-36 hrs of starting it along with immediate strength. The skin gets better. Joints and tendons feel better.

I dont notice this so much on tbol, although I do feel about as good on it.
 
Godstrength said:
I don't think real anavar that is dosed well is as hard to get as people think. Real anavar is crystally and Winstrol for example is real powdery. If they are capped for example I can usually tell the difference side by side comparison of the raws. If its pressed in tablets or in suspended in liquid then well who knows lol.

I think tbol and anavar are similar but a few differences give it away for me...
On anavar I get the hella pumps within 24-36 hrs of starting it along with immediate strength. The skin gets better. Joints and tendons feel better.

I dont notice this so much on tbol, although I do feel about as good on it.
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Ok thats it... Im gonna get me some anavar my next cycle... From what ive heard its always seemed like it wasnt worth the trouble
 
christ83189 said:
Ok thats it... Im gonna get me some anavar my next cycle... From what ive heard its always seemed like it wasnt worth the trouble
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It has been type cast... it does really well in it's roll for cutting, or finishing up a cycle making you look hard and dense. So now people think that is all it is good for. I am not making claims it beats Tren for size or anything like that... However it beats testosterone for me, and gives me the exact looks that I want. I am not a huge fan of those guys who look lean, but soft at the same time. Don't get me wrong I still like that look but that tight and grainy dense muscle is the look that impresses me. That and having rock hard muscle when I flex. That is what I get more of with Var. When my pecs are flexed you aren't pushing your finger into them, they have no give. I have friends who look good and are lean but when they flex I can push my finger through to the bone almost.... Just softer, and not what I am after.

Doing really well on the fast today... have not had any calories all day and am not hungry in any way. I even went and donated, and am feeling fine. My HCT levels are still high @ 51 but that should have dropped another 3 points with this blood draw. Getting me into range but I am going to need to drop into the 42-45 range to feel really good with it but anything under 50 and I have no symptoms.

Also my blood pressure is holding strong at 120/82, and heart rate in the low 60's the last two times in. I would say things are going well so far. I plan on doing a little activity tonight but no workouts since I donated. Might just go for a walk, or take a relaxing ride on the bike. Just far from doing anything intense.

May just end up doing a little mobility work too. Either way, I plan on doing something to push progress a bit further tonight. Meal-wise I am just going to eat whatever is on the menu tonight. Then add more, I am looking toward 1500-2000 calories for the day. Maybe up to 2500 if I go full keto.
 
Hyde said:
You say that like it’s a bad thing!

Var is definitely around for 1. For 2, ‘Merica
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I just mean because of there stupid laws!!
 
Rocket3015 said:
I just mean because of there stupid laws!!
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All it took was Lyle Alzado blaming his illness on gear and not admitting publicly he had all of these other health issues on top of regular intravenous drug use. Wow what a poster boy to cling to and change the laws for... Make it Schedule 3 it is as bad as crack, just look at what it did to Lyle... I remember reading all about the rest of that and thinking I totally remember this guy doing all of this... We were all sheep listening to him blame the gear and not the lifestyle and heredity.

Last night I had an 8oz turkey burger with 4 servings of waffle fries, and then had 2 scoops of whey isolate in 3 cups of skim milk and 3 low fat cheese sticks.

Total macros 105p, 66f, 160.5 carbs - 1656 total calories. I will take it on a Burn day...

I am going to watch my daughter perform at the spring pop show tonight and won't be able to lift but I already planned for that. If I have time I will lift between dropping her off for practice and actually going to the show. If I do that, it will probably be a squats only session just more sets of them. That or I will just bump everything one day and do the full lower body workout tomorrow. With me lifting on Tuesday and Wednesday I can still get a day off between if I lift Saturday/Sunday instead of Friday/Saturday.

I have a feeling I might be the same or heavier when I weight this week... 30g of creatine a day has to add something right... water weight via increased cell volume... something. I think I am going to get myself some full fat cottage cheese for the evenings. Maybe replace some of the milk, or just get whole milk for higher fat. Either way gonna ride this bad boy out and see how it goes. Thinking of making some homemade protein bars with honey or brown rice syrup, pb, oats, and protein powder to eat at night on workout nights to increase the caloric intake where I want to.
 
MrKleen73 said:
All it took was Lyle Alzado blaming his illness on gear and not admitting publicly he had all of these other health issues on top of regular intravenous drug use. Wow what a poster boy to cling to and change the laws for... Make it Schedule 3 it is as bad as crack, just look at what it did to Lyle... I remember reading all about the rest of that and thinking I totally remember this guy doing all of this... We were all sheep listening to him blame the gear and not the lifestyle and heredity.

Last night I had an 8oz turkey burger with 4 servings of waffle fries, and then had 2 scoops of whey isolate in 3 cups of skim milk and 3 low fat cheese sticks.

Total macros 105p, 66f, 160.5 carbs - 1656 total calories. I will take it on a Burn day...

I am going to watch my daughter perform at the spring pop show tonight and won't be able to lift but I already planned for that. If I have time I will lift between dropping her off for practice and actually going to the show. If I do that, it will probably be a squats only session just more sets of them. That or I will just bump everything one day and do the full lower body workout tomorrow. With me lifting on Tuesday and Wednesday I can still get a day off between if I lift Saturday/Sunday instead of Friday/Saturday.

I have a feeling I might be the same or heavier when I weight this week... 30g of creatine a day has to add something right... water weight via increased cell volume... something. I think I am going to get myself some full fat cottage cheese for the evenings. Maybe replace some of the milk, or just get whole milk for higher fat. Either way gonna ride this bad boy out and see how it goes. Thinking of making some homemade protein bars with honey or brown rice syrup, pb, oats, and protein powder to eat at night on workout nights to increase the caloric intake where I want to.
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Wow Lyle Alzado...I remember all of that, and it was pre internet so we just took it all as gospel
 
I forgot to mention, my legs are feeling a little DOMS from the sprinting, not a ton but enough to surprise me. I don't get sore easily...
 
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