Not true. The squat is neither a quad nor a hip dominant movement.
I did not say that the squat itself is hip or quad dominant. I said if your mechanics make it that way. You can change your mechanics / form to a certain degree but your bone and body structure dictates the leverages which dictate the optimal mechanics for the lift. That effects which muscle group is more dominant in the movement.
The optimal mechanics is when you are able to recruit as much power and force from all muscles involved but it does not mean that one group will still not fire preferentially or with more force out of necessity due to leverage based structural limitations.
So sure you can change where more stress is placed via weight placement according to center of gravity but the bottom line is that your bone structure dictates the leverages you have to work with. You can adjust to a certain degree with in them but that is about it.
Nope lol. It's both. Neither one dominates the lift. However your strengths and weaknesses will effect how a max effort lifts looks based on what gives out and what doesn't and where your body goes to find strength and leverage.
See pretty much exactly what I said except you are saying the the body finds the leverage and the fact is that the optimal leverage is already dictated by your structure. It is physics and you have to work and make adjustments within your structural limitations IE bone length, insertion points and other things that are beyond the control of our attempts at mimicking someone else's form.
Isn't that what Chris was talking about?
Yes to a degree.
No, he was saying you can't change some one who is hip dominant for example. Which you can; if you bring up their quad strength.
Improving quad strength improves definitely improves quad strength, but does not change the structure and therefore does not change the dominance in the lift. It only makes one of the weaker, less engaged parts of the movement stronger. However it does not change the levels of force needed on either side of the joint. The leverage disadvantage that required you to do extra work to stimulate and strengthen your quads to catch up to the hips is still there. Certainly your squat will improve from stronger quads but it doesn't change the the fact the the leverage favors one side over the other...
I guess part of the disconnect here is I am talking about a person trying to find their
optimal mechanical advantage, and exploiting it. Bottom line leverage is the key there. All other factors can be changed, but for optimal performance the body has to use the most efficient movement pattern, or mechanics. You can do other things to assist like you said increasing quad strength for someone hip dominant is going to improve their squat a good bit but it does not change the structure of the joints and insertions in a way that changes the best mechanical leverage.
Not to put words in Chris's mouth, but I took it to mean you will utilize whatever you are biased towards to a greater degree.
Which is definitely what I believe: if your quads aren't as strong as your hams/hips/erectors, you're likely gonna squat more like Goggins than CWS. But all lifters should strive to bring up weaknesses obviously, and it is definitely possible to make a weakness a strength (or become dominant, more accurately).
Yes and I am not saying you can not become much stronger and shift more focus onto the non-dominant areas during the movement and see great improvements. Like you said moving to a high bar with knees more forward emphasized quads more but never really thrashed them.
I can high bar squat until the cows come home and I am not really going to get sore in my quads. It will still be glutes, adductors and a little in the hamstrings. The only squats that really get my quads are front squats, otherwise to really target quads for growth or strength I have to go with leg presses and hacks. That or pre-exhaust my quads prior to squatting.
One can train a body part to become stronger and larger than what the naturally dominant area would be in the squat sure. In order to do that you have to create a mechanical disadvantage by changing the leverage due to bar position to force the less activated muscle to fire. You can increase your high bar squat over what your low bar squat was even if you are hip dominant by training to do so while at the same time not pushing the low bar squat. However in the end if your natural mechanics favor the hips over the quads then going back to the low bar and working it with the now stronger quads is going to take your low bar back up above your high bar quickly. Using your natural leverage to your advantage is always going to produce a heavier lift.
That's how it read to me too.
It's also worth mentioning the effect ingrained motor patterns will have, which I believe was also referring to.
If you are naturally hip, or quad, dominant you will learn to squat differently. Then, even if you strengthen the quads significantly, you will still rely more readily on the hips for your squat.
It takes more than strength work to change that. Real effort has to be put into ingraining new motor patterns for the squat.
That is also a definite factor in it. Some of those neural patterns are like that because it is simply more efficient for you to squat that way due to your structure. Some are just from how you learned or were taught.
Now if someone only knows how to squat the way they were taught, and it goes against their body's natural leverages they could think something is dominant that is not then once changing to a form that exploits the dominate muscle group it feels more natural and the weights begin to go up.
If this is towards me, no I am not saying that. I am saying the squat uses the hips and knees with around equal effort regardless of the bar position. The hamstrings are not a major player in the squat.
Saying that the bar position does not change the amount of force being provided or torque being applied on either side of the joints is ignoring physics. To place 400lb 2 inches closer to the center of gravity (High Bar) on a 3-4 foot lever (your spine) changes the distribution of weight a lot more than you think.
Bone and body structure changes between each person, heck each joint... That will change how a squat looks. Optimal form for the squat is different for everyone. There are some hard and fast rules to keep it optimum like the spine should be stabilized via a tight core, and the bar path should be straight up and down to be the most efficient. However that being considered, the body is naturally going to use it's structural leverages to it's mechanical advantage to move the weight as efficiently as possible. The muscles will fire and work accordingly. If the leverage always benefits the hips a bit do to your structure then you are still going to be hip dominant during the squat if the goal is optimal strength & performance. There is an optimal form for different body types for a reason.
Hamstrings would be more of an assistance in the squat, but they are definitely involved in hip extension, a thing many forget and often don't train directly.
I must disagree. I was at a point before my back gave out where all I was doing for low body was squatting low bar and pulling (much less volume than squatting, mind you). My hams were big, and my quads had become paltry. They can be made to be a very major player.
Precisely and I bet your hams have not really lost a step assuming you are pulling as often.
Your hamstrings can't get you out of the bottom of a squat tho. But if your good morning and rely heavily on hip extension then they can help pull you a good portion of the way. You can use them a lot but it would by no means be considered an optimal squat.
Absolutely agreed.
Entirely agreed. But it can still get you 3 whites in the first event of a Full Power meet is what I'm saying.
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