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is this possible on powerfull

maxfeez

maxfeez

New member
im about 5'6 and weigh about 140 with very little bf. i started taking pf 6ed for the first week. then up the dosage to 8ed. ive been on for about 3weeks. for some reason i think my balls shrunk. is this possible when on pf? do u think i took to much compared to my weight? what can i take to get them back or can i just stop and they will come back. im on nothing else but no-explode and cissus.
 
I'd be shocked if this was caused by Powerfull. If anything, it should have the opposite effect. Is your libido affected?

Are you sure it didn't just get colder out?
 
it is getting colder outside. lol

i read on a synergy forum that pf could increases test. when there is an increase in test it makes the nuts shrink. is that correct.
this has to be my imagination. i dont think pf has those effects.
 
Nope, when you inject synthetic test your testes eventually stop producing natural test and begin to shrink, but if it naturally increases test, your nuts, if anything, will get bigger.
 
Ziricote said:
Does there need to be? PowerFULL rises test levels but it does not replace test like steroids do.
Click to expand...

Yes. If you want to make claims that it does raise test levels, you need to have a study to prove it. Even then, most studies are poorly controlled, and are not 100% accurate. Check out the first study on Forslean, if you're looking for a prime example on how studies should NOTbe performed.

Just because something increases libido, longetivity, etc. does not mean that it raises test, which is a common misconception amoung some supplement companies and users(I'm not downing on USP, but I am downing on the copycat companies who throw a bunch of crap in a capsule without understanding the science behind it). Yohimbe is a good example of what I'm getting at: though a well-known aphrodesiac, it is not a test booster by any means.

So yeah, without blood tests, a control group, and a statistically acceptable pool of testers; there's nothing you can say about Pfull and raising test.
 
The reason I say it raises test is because USP had posted saying so over at BB.com a little while ago.

I don't think they actually claim PowerFULL raises test though, I do believe it does do that albeit not extensively. Everything I've read about what's in it suggests it works in a different way.
 
Ziricote said:
The reason I say it raises test is because USP had posted saying so over at BB.com a little while ago.

I don't think they actually claim PowerFULL raises test though, I do believe it does do that albeit not extensively. Everything I've read about what's in it suggests it works in a different way.
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I don't doubt it, PFull definitely does something.

I was just defending/elaborating on what aequitas said. A lot of people (myself included) can get mixed up between anecdotal evidence and proof.

Just like this kid with shrunken nuts, he's blaming PF; however there could be infinitely many factors involved.
 
I agree totally, ultimately if this is caused by PowerFULL or at least if maxfeez believes it is then he should discontinue use and see if his 'boys' go back to normal.

I'm thinking it's got more to do with his BF%, as he says it's very low...
 
this is why i raised this question because of what synergy muscle said in post 7 in this thread. Invalid Link Removed

balls were hanging lower than usual, maybe that is what it is.

thesinner. just some backround. im not a kid. i kind of laughed when u said that. im italian and short. i have 12+ yrs of bodybuilding experience. i've takin tons of supplememts, but stayed all natural not even ph's. people take roids to look like me. im a genitic freak.
 
maxfeez said:
this is why i raised this question because of what synergy muscle said in post 7 in this thread. Invalid Link Removed

balls were hanging lower than usual, maybe that is what it is.

thesinner. just some backround. im not a kid. i kind of laughed when u said that. im italian and short. i have 12+ yrs of bodybuilding experience. i've takin tons of supplememts, but stayed all natural not even ph's. people take roids to look like me. im a genitic freak.
Click to expand...

We're all kids at heart :D

Didn't mean to down on ya. Keep with your success as a natty. It's funny, either you've bein lifting since you were 9 or you're older than me (making me the kid).
 
thesinner said:
I don't doubt it, PFull definitely does something.

I was just defending/elaborating on what aequitas said. A lot of people (myself included) can get mixed up between anecdotal evidence and proof.

Just like this kid with shrunken nuts, he's blaming PF; however there could be infinitely many factors involved.
Click to expand...


Honestly i've searched extensively over many journals/pubmed/etc. and have found nothing on whatever is in this (1-carboxy, saponins from whatever they claim). There is no scientific backing or evidence that shows that either of these compounds works. But hey if the masses say it works then it must have something to it. I personally got absolutely nothing from it, nor did i from REM which also has "1-carboxy" in it. If someone claims that it does these things, personally i want to see proof. And not just anectdotal b/c the power of placebo is astonishing.
 
aequitas said:
Honestly i've searched extensively over many journals/pubmed/etc. and have found nothing on whatever is in this (1-carboxy, saponins from whatever they claim). There is no scientific backing or evidence that shows that either of these compounds works. But hey if the masses say it works then it must have something to it. I personally got absolutely nothing from it, nor did i from REM which also has "1-carboxy" in it. If someone claims that it does these things, personally i want to see proof. And not just anectdotal b/c the power of placebo is astonishing.
Click to expand...

Well, all antogonism, and accusations aside, I found it rather amusing how you stated you "searched extensively" on a product which you yourself have admitted to not knowing the ingredient(s). In terms of those said ingredients, 1c is in fact not made up of saponins, and is extracted from Mucuna Pruriens, and the PureSap, which is saponins, is mainly extracted from the plant Chlorophytum Borivilianum.

Now, while Mucuna Pruriens, which you probably better know as the Velvet Bean has a fair amount of scientific research behind. However, research into the aphrodisiac, and saponin-based anabolic/androgenic activity of Chlorophytum or the Spider Plant is fairly limited as it was not known to western science to have these capabilities until relatively recently (speaking in terms of research). It has, as with many of our other products, been implemented in Aryuvedic medicine for quite some time, and the most promising research on this plant will more than likely come out of India and not the United States.

Now, on to your accusations. I, in my limited time as a rep, have never stated that Powerfull will directly raise Testosterone. Using my knowledge on the product I had written a small write up stating how I felt that the saponins in PFull could contribute to a positive hormonal balance by acting as intermediates in the production of hormones. And in fact, it states nowhere in our product writeup for our retailers that PowerFULL will raise testosterone. We do claim that it will lead to an increase in muscle mass, restful sleep, etc., but there are a vast myriad of factors which can contribute to those very things, not only an increase in Testosterone.

Finally, I would say welcome to the supplement industry as a consumer. If you expect to see 6-12 month placebo controlled, double blind study on every extract in every product to hit the market, you're on dope. Though this is not the case, at USP Labs, and a certain few other companies such as Designer Supplements, we do in fact strive to use our knowledge to select products with scientific backing behind them, to give our consumers the best product possible. Apart from cases such as yourself, I feel the vast majority of consumers recognize and appreciate that.

You say you want to see 'proof' when someone makes a claim on a product. I do not respond overly well to CEE, but I would not ask you for a muscle tissue biopsy Post-Exercise to prove that CEE has worked for you.
 
I'll go ahead and say that the excellent "real world results" are all the proof I need that powerfull WORKS. Everytime time I add a couple bottles of this to my regimen, I notice undeniable results. My weight workouts improve and my jogging improves too. I even notice a better attitude in general along with better sleep. This stuff is legit and it does what it says it will do. I don't give a d**m if it raises test or not.
 
Mulletsoldier said:
Well, all antogonism, and accusations aside, I found it rather amusing how you stated you "searched extensively" on a product which you yourself have admitted to not knowing the ingredient(s). In terms of those said ingredients, 1c is in fact not made up of saponins, and is extracted from Mucuna Pruriens, and the PureSap, which is saponins, is mainly extracted from the plant Chlorophytum Borivilianum.

Now, while Mucuna Pruriens, which you probably better know as the Velvet Bean has a fair amount of scientific research behind. However, research into the aphrodisiac, and saponin-based anabolic/androgenic activity of Chlorophytum or the Spider Plant is fairly limited as it was not known to western science to have these capabilities until relatively recently (speaking in terms of research). It has, as with many of our other products, been implemented in Aryuvedic medicine for quite some time, and the most promising research on this plant will more than likely come out of India and not the United States.

Now, on to your accusations. I, in my limited time as a rep, have never stated that Powerfull will directly raise Testosterone. Using my knowledge on the product I had written a small write up stating how I felt that the saponins in PFull could contribute to a positive hormonal balance by acting as intermediates in the production of hormones. And in fact, it states nowhere in our product writeup for our retailers that PowerFULL will raise testosterone. We do claim that it will lead to an increase in muscle mass, restful sleep, etc., but there are a vast myriad of factors which can contribute to those very things, not only an increase in Testosterone.

Finally, I would say welcome to the supplement industry as a consumer. If you expect to see 6-12 month placebo controlled, double blind study on every extract in every product to hit the market, you're on dope. Though this is not the case, at USP Labs, and a certain few other companies such as Designer Supplements, we do in fact strive to use our knowledge to select products with scientific backing behind them, to give our consumers the best product possible. Apart from cases such as yourself, I feel the vast majority of consumers recognize and appreciate that.

You say you want to see 'proof' when someone makes a claim on a product. I do not respond overly well to CEE, but I would not ask you for a muscle tissue biopsy Post-Exercise to prove that CEE has worked for you.
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PureSap 100% saponis (yes I made of the word saponis to reflect a compound similiar in structure to saponins found in cholorphytum) is known in India as a Hormonal adaptagen. what does that mean? Adatagen like bacopa, rhodiola and the likes helps the body cope with stress. Bacopa is a mental adaptagen that helps the mind deal with stress. IN times of stress (exercise), PureSap primes the hormonal system to adapt to stress.

When we re-release PowerFULL(in about 6 months so you should buy it up from Nutra who has it at a incredible price). We will release this new research...

take care
 
My only stance on this issue is that people claim that it raises test and other things, when there is no evidence. Like i said if it works it works. However, it is misleading when a company puts up the fake names of two unknown compounds in a product and also provides no backing in what they are or the evidence needed to substantiate the product (for just me i guess). Take DS for example, they provided the real name of the compound in activate, provided specific studies relating to the product, and completed blood tests to show proof it works. This is the role model supplement company for me. But supplement companies will and will continue to make any outrageous claim they wish, without providing backing, because hey....its not required.
Also, in fact i have researched Chlorophytum and Mucuna Pruriens because this issue has been brought up on two other forums and found nothing. L-dopa has numerous effects on the brain, but there is no evidence that shows "1-carboxy pyrobenzol (3,4 diol)" ,if thats right, even has an effect on dopamine in the brain. Also, conisdering it has a 3,4 diol on the benzene ring it will be a substrate of COMT. And most likely it will be metabolized shortly after it crosses the blood brain barrier, and in the peripheral tissues before it even gets to the BBB. After a few uses of L-dopa in parkinsons patients they eventually obtain no benifit from the drug b/c it all gets metabolized. Which is why when L-dopa is used as a drug it is paired with at COMT inhibitor. Also regarding toxicity, have you ever considered that long term use of l-dopa causes motor complications, and since you are claiming your 1-carboxy product is similar to l-dopa wouldnt this be an issue?
 
USPLabs said:
PureSap 100% saponis (yes I made of the word saponis to reflect a compound similiar in structure to saponins found in cholorphytum) is known in India as a Hormonal adaptagen. what does that mean? Adatagen like bacopa, rhodiola and the likes helps the body cope with stress. Bacopa is a mental adaptagen that helps the mind deal with stress. IN times of stress (exercise), PureSap primes the hormonal system to adapt to stress.

When we re-release PowerFULL(in about 6 months so you should buy it up from Nutra who has it at a incredible price). We will release this new research...

take care
Click to expand...


Exactactittily!!!

:)

(I still liked my word of hormonal intermediate better J)

:icon_lol:
 
aequitas said:
My only stance on this issue is that people claim that it raises test and other things, when there is no evidence. Like i said if it works it works. However, it is misleading when a company puts up the fake names of two unknown compounds in a product and also provides no backing in what they are or the evidence needed to substantiate the product (for just me i guess). Take DS for example, they provided the real name of the compound in activate, provided specific studies relating to the product, and completed blood tests to show proof it works. This is the role model supplement company for me. But supplement companies will and will continue to make any outrageous claim they wish, without providing backing, because hey....its not required.
Also, in fact i have researched Chlorophytum and Mucuna Pruriens because this issue has been brought up on two other forums and found nothing. L-dopa has numerous effects on the brain, but there is no evidence that shows "1-carboxy pyrobenzol (3,4 diol)" ,if thats right, even has an effect on dopamine in the brain. Also, conisdering it has a 3,4 diol on the benzene ring it will be a substrate of COMT. And most likely it will be metabolized shortly after it crosses the blood brain barrier, and in the peripheral tissues before it even gets to the BBB. After a few uses of L-dopa in parkinsons patients they eventually obtain no benifit from the drug b/c it all gets metabolized. Which is why when L-dopa is used as a drug it is paired with at COMT inhibitor. Also regarding toxicity, have you ever considered that long term use of l-dopa causes motor complications, and since you are claiming your 1-carboxy product is similar to l-dopa wouldnt this be an issue?
Click to expand...


The names are not fake. Perform a Mass spec on velvet bean. L-dopa from Velvet bean out performs synthetic L-dopa in crossing the BBB.

Please site where L-dopa causes motor complications. L-dopa is studied for the extact opposite response to correct motor complications.

Do you understand what your stating. You are comming with an arguement without evidence. You are also misleading in your accusations. Where is your research? PowerFULL works. I been open and honest about the lack of research for its perspective effects. THis is the exact reason we beta tested before release to validate what the inhouse testers claimed. THere is plenty of toxcity data on cholorphytum and Velvet bean.
 
I stated i totally agree with you on the fact that if the masses say it works this shows anectdotal proof. I could go on all day about dietary supplements and proof but its pointless because in the end people are going to buy a product if they believe that it works. The only issue that concerned me was people saying that it raises test. I have respect for your company b/c you beta test your products and admit that there is no research. I have no further quarrell about this.

Concering l-dopa it is a common expertise that continuous administration of l-dopa causes motor complications (dyskinesia). Here are some studies that show this. However, i cannot find a study that shows that levodopa would cause dyskinesias in normal patients, so maybe this effect is only shown in parkinsons patients. Regardless, there is still some concern.




(zzNature Neuroscience 6, 437 - 438 (2003)
doi:10.1038/nn0503-437
L-DOPA, dyskinesia and striatal plasticity
Stephen Dunnett
The author is at the School of Biosciences, Cardiff University, Cardiff, Wales CF10 3US, UK. [email protected]
Long-term use of L-DOPA as a treatment for Parkinson disease can induce uncontrollable movements. A new report attributes this side effect to abnormal downregulation of synaptic plasticity.


Treatment of Parkinson's disease should begin with a dopamine agonist
Jean Louis Montastruc, MD, PhD *, Olivier Rascol, MD, PhD, Jean-Michel Senard, MD, PhD
Laboratoire de Pharmacologie Médicale et Clinique, Inserm U 317, Faculté de Médecine, Service de Pharmacologie Clinique, Centre Midi-Pyrénées de Pharmacovigilance, de Pharmacoépidémiologie et d'Informations sur le Médicament and Centre d'Investigation Clinique, Hôpitaux de Toulouse, Toulouse, France

*Correspondence to Jean Louis Montastruc, Labaoratoire de Pharmacologie Médicale et Clinique, Faculté de Médecine, 37 allées Jules-Guesde, 31073 Toulouse Cedex, France

Abstract
The occurrence of side effects with long-term levodopa therapy, such as fluctuations in motor performance or abnormal movements, led to a search for new antiparkinsonian drugs. Dopamine agonists include ergot derivatives such as bromocriptine, lisuride, pergolide, and cabergoline and other agents which do not possess the ergot structure such as pramipexole and ropinirole. They all are powerful stimulators of the D2 dopamine receptor which probably underlies their therapeutic effects. The clinical consequences of their binding to other dopamine receptor subtypes (D1 or D3) remains unknown. They are usually prescribed in combination with levodopa when late side effects begin to occur. This review summarizes the available pharmacologic and clinical data to support the early use of dopamine agonists in Parkinson's disease. Several strategies can be used, such as monotherapy or early or late combination with levodopa. Results of recent well-performed, modern clinical trials show that early use of the new dopamine agonists is able to effectively control the clinical symptoms for more than 3 years thereby offering the possibility of delaying the occurrence of levodopa-induced late motor side effects.

Continuous dopaminergic stimulation: Is it the answer to the motor complications of Levodopa?Nutt JG.
Northwest PADRECC, Portland VAMC, and Parkinson Center of Oregon, Oregon Health & Science University, Portland, Oregon, USA.

Continuous dopaminergic stimulation (CDS) is a treatment strategy hypothesized to avoid or reduce the motor complications of long-term levodopa therapy, motor fluctuations, and dyskinesia, by preventing or reversing sensitization induced by pulsatile dopaminergic stimulation. The CDS hypothesis is itself based on several hypotheses. First, tonic dopaminergic stimulation is physiological. Second, sensitization is undesirable and should be reversed. Third, reduction of off time and dyskinesia can be induced simultaneously. Finally, clinical studies substantiate the CDS hypothesis. The evidence for these hypotheses is reviewed, and the need for randomized clinical trials that rigorously test the CDS hypothesis is emphasized. (c) 2006 Movement Disorder Society.

Thirty five years of experience in the treatment of Parkinson's disease with levodopa and associations.Chouza C, Buzo R, Scaramelli A, Romero S, de Medina O, Aljanati R, Dieguez E, Lisanti N, Gomensoro J.
Section Extrapyramidal Diseases, Instituto de Neurologia, Hospital de Clinicas, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de la Republica Montevideo, Uruguay. [email protected]

PMID: 17017563 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Also i have seen the study that compares velvet bean to synthetic l-dopa and you are definately right on this.

1. Is 1-carboxy extracted from velvet bean?
2. And if so is this not levodopa itself (the structure name is not correct)?
3. If it is another compound extraced from velvet bean why did you decide to use this compound?
 
That is actually only a direct result of the medications effect on Parkinsons and has absolutely nothing to do with its use in normal patients. As USP said, when one accuses a company of something, it is best to come with formulated, research based arguments.

Good day

:)
 
BTW, I like your screenname...Boondock Saints is a sweet movie (making an assumption this is where you got it from)
 
Mulletsoldier said:
BTW, I like your screenname...Boondock Saints is a sweet movie (making an assumption this is where you got it from)
Click to expand...

C'mon mullet, you can't assume; that's what got us all debating in the first place.
 
It is from boondock saints which is a great movie....there's a new one coming out soon. First of all its hard to come at you with studies when there are none on the compounds in the first place. Anyways like i said i have no idea whether it has been studied in normal patients but neither do you, you have no studies to back your assumption up. And i found this looking at another board stated by USPLABS...... "In ONE study done in India, they found a natural l-Dopa derivative called 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol) that increased HGH levels through increasing dopamine levels naturally and Testosterone levels similar to 100mg of exogenous testosterone". Where is the study??.....and putting a study in your "writeup" is just the same as making a claim to me.



Also i would like to know what i've asked before because i am quite sure (until i ask my med chem professor b/c the nomenclature is horrible) based on your structure name that this is levodopa itself which is a product that should only be available by prescription.....

1. Is 1-carboxy extracted from velvet bean?
2. And if so is this not levodopa itself ?
3. If it is another compound extraced from velvet bean can you give another structure name to prove that it isnt levodopa?



Also while i'm on this subject.... Found two studies....

L-Dopa induces dyskinesia in normal monkeys: behavioural and pharmacokinetic observations
Journal Psychopharmacology
Publisher Springer Berlin / Heidelberg
ISSN 0033-3158 (Print) 1432-2072 (Online)
Subject Biomedical and Life Sciences and Medicine
Issue Volume 156, Number 4 / August, 2001
Category Original Investigation
DOI 10.1007/s002130100733
Pages 402-409
Online Date Thursday, February 19, 2004
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Authors
R. Pearce, M. Heikkilä, I.-B. Lindén, P. Jenner
Abstract
Rationale: L-Dopa induces dyskinesias during the treatment of Parkinson's disease and also in primates with nigrostriatal lesions produced by MPTP, but it is claimed that L-dopa does not provoke dyskinesia in humans or monkeys with an intact or mildly damaged nigrostriatal system. Objectives: This study assessed the behavioural and pharmacokinetic effects of chronic oral administration of L-dopa plus carbidopa alone, or with co-administration of the peripheral COMT inhibitor entacapone, to normal macaque monkeys. Repeated high dose L-dopa administration was shown to induce marked dyskinesias in monkeys with an intact nigrostriatal system, and the threshold for dyskinesia expression was increased by peripheral catechol-O-methyltransferase inhibition with entacapone. Methods: Six groups of normal macaque monkeys (n=8 per group; Macaca fascicularis) were treated with L-dopa (20, 40 or 80 mg/kg) plus carbidopa (5, 10 or 20 mg/kg) with or without the catechol-O-methyltransferase inhibitor entacapone (20, 40 or 80 mg/kg), or with entacapone alone (80 mg/kg), by oral administration once daily for 13 weeks. Results: Eleven of 16 animals receiving high dose L-dopa (80 mg/kg plus carbidopa 20 mg/kg PO with or without entacapone 80 mg/kg PO for 13 weeks) gradually developed reproducible and idiosyncratic combinations of chorea, athetosis and dystonia maximal at 60-100 min after L-dopa administration, which progressively intensified over the course of the study. The dyskinesias observed were similar in type and distribution to L-dopa-induced dyskinesia observed in patients with Parkinson's disease and in MPTP-treated primates. The occurrence of dyskinesia correlated with plasma concentrations of L-dopa, with animals displaying the most severe dyskinesias having significantly higher plasma concentrations of L-dopa one hour after dosing than animals with mild or moderate dyskinesia or no dyskinesia. Co-administration of entacapone with L-dopa plus carbidopa significantly lowered peak plasma concentrations of L-dopa and this was reflected by a decrease in the severity of dyskinesias, with only one animal receiving entacapone and high dose L-dopa plus carbidopa showing severe dyskinesia, while four receiving high dose L-dopa plus carbidopa alone did so. Conclusions: These results show for the first time that chronic oral L-dopa administration can provoke dyskinesias in primates independently of nigrostriatal damage, and that this effect is dose related.

Journal of Neurochemistry
Volume 84 Page 1246 - March 2003
doi:10.1046/j.1471-4159.2003.01600.x
Volume 84 Issue 6


Pattern of levodopa-induced striatal changes is different in normal and MPTP-lesioned mice
Christian E. Gross,* Paula Ravenscroft,* Sandra Dovero,* Mohamed Jaber,† Bernard Bioulac* and Erwan Bezard*

Abstract

While levodopa-induced neurochemical changes have been studied in animal models of Parkinson's disease, very little is known regarding the effects of levodopa administration in normal animals. The present study investigates the effects normal and MPTP-lesioned mice chronically treated with two different doses of levodopa. We assess changes in striatal dopamine (DA) receptor binding, striatal DA receptor mRNA levels and striatal neuropeptide precursor levels (preproenkephalin-A [PPE-A]; preprotachykinin [PPT]; preproenkephalin-B [PPE-B]). The extent of the lesion was measured by striatal DA transporter binding and stereological estimation of the number of tyrosine hydroxylase immunoreactive neurones in the substantia nigra pars compacta (SNc). In non-lesioned animals, chronic levodopa treatment induced an increase in PPE-A mRNA, whereas both D3R binding and PPE-B mRNA levels were dramatically increased in the lesioned animals in a dose dependent manner. The present results show that chronic levodopa administration may induce pathophysiological changes, even in the absence of a lesion of the nigro-striatal pathway, suggesting that the sensitization process involves predominantly the indirect striatofugal pathway in non-lesioned animals, whereas the direct pathway is primarily involved in lesioned animals.
 
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