I'm still having alittle shoulder pain, is it wise to do the overhead press?

[DerickVonD]

I switched to doing the seated dumbbell press about 3 or 4 months ago, because of tendinitis in my right shoulder. When I did the overhead press I felt like a crack in my right shoulder everytime I pushed the weight over head. Last week I tried the overhead press and I felt fine while I was doing it, but I'll still have right shoulder pain on and off, but no longer during or after the exercise just at random. Should I do seated dumb bell presses a few more months or am I good to go on overhead presses?

 

[lonewolf0420]

Its hard to say because, well we're not you.

Any discomfort performing any other movements?

If you feeling like giving the movement a go, make sure you stretch and warm-up your shoulders real good. Perform the movement with lighter weight, focusing on full rom. See how you feel after a couple of sets that way. Then next session increase the weight a little more.

 

[DerickVonD]

Its hard to say because, well we're not you.

Any discomfort performing any other movements?

If you feeling like giving the movement a go, make sure you stretch and warm-up your shoulders real good. Perform the movement with lighter weight, focusing on full rom. See how you feel after a couple of sets that way. Then next session increase the weight a little more.

I have no discomfort what so ever doing anything else. I was having a similar problem with lateral raises but that too went away. Also, I was wondering how come in the gym I never see anyone do standing overhead presses?

 

[10bathroomsO]

If you still have more pain in your shoulder leave the db's or free weight overhead movements alone for a while, go stupid light weight on the overhead machine presses and on pulling movements that have effects on your shoulder, by stupid lightweight I mean like 50 lbs and maybe even 25 lbs high rep
I am not a doctor just speaking from personal experience
For a better example take the dc training movement methods and use them with light weight
For pushing movements bring it down slow and pop it up to your finish position quickly and in full control
It may seem too simple to fix things but everytime I think I'm about to get a injury or some soreness starts to form up I totally switch my training style up to something like this, oh and rub down some icy hot on them shoulders, and maybe take some beta alanine that has the tingle effect, it will help you feel that muscle group better and better isolation means less oppertunity for injury

 

[ryansm]

The occurrence of pain in what seems random times could be development of arthritis in the joint.

 

[ZiR RED]

Lets treat the cause, not the symptoms. There's a reason you are having shoulder pains. We need to figure out where it is, what it is and why it is occuring, and then work to correct it.

Performing machines over freeweights is not going to make a difference, in fact, I suggest to not use machines, especially for pressing movements. They alter the ROM, taking your joints into a differet alignment. Further, because you don't have to stabilize, your primary movers will get worked while many of your stabilization muscles will not. Do this long enough, and you will only exascberate the problem.

10bathrooms: Many people do not understand the benefits of doing a standing over head press. Those who do, often do not support the weight correctly. Far too often I see people pressing large weights, supporting the weight with their lower backs. The lower back is in excessive lordosis (arched), the pelvis is tilted anteriorly, and the shoulders and weight is behind the hips. This place all the weight onto the lower back. Try keeping your hips behind you and squeezing your glutes hard and keeping your abdominals tight while doing a standing over head press. No, you will not be able to lift as much, but you will be strengthening your core and improving form while doing so.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

Lets treat the cause, not the symptoms. There's a reason you are having shoulder pains. We need to figure out where it is, what it is and why it is occuring, and then work to correct it.

Performing machines over freeweights is not going to make a difference, in fact, I suggest to not use machines, especially for pressing movements. They alter the ROM, taking your joints into a differet alignment. Further, because you don't have to stabilize, your primary movers will get worked while many of your stabilization muscles will not. Do this long enough, and you will only exascberate the problem.

10bathrooms: Many people do not understand the benefits of doing a standing over head press. Those who do, often do not support the weight correctly. Far too often I see people pressing large weights, supporting the weight with their lower backs. The lower back is in excessive lordosis (arched), the pelvis is tilted anteriorly, and the shoulders and weight is behind the hips. This place all the weight onto the lower back. Try keeping your hips behind you and squeezing your glutes hard and keeping your abdominals tight while doing a standing over head press. No, you will not be able to lift as much, but you will be strengthening your core and improving form while doing so.

Br

That could be why I never progressed passed 100 lbs with the overhead press. I eventually pulled my back and didn't workout for 5 months. I'll drop the weight by 20 lbs and focus on form and post a video up in 2 days when I do my shoulder work. Also what foot stance is easier? I usually have one leg in front of the other.

 

[10bathroomsO]

If you have free weights I suggest going light weight, did you get these injuries lifting weights? If so you've probably been going to heavy for your frame and you probably need more control = better form.
There's all kinds of scientific ways to explain it, but to keep it simple just find a weight that's comfertable and take about 10 lbs off of that and burn out, some people would consider this cutting exercises or whatever but building up your muscles endurance should build them back in strength and health.

 

[DerickVonD]

I hurt my shoulder from doing heavy upright rows.

 

[10bathroomsO]

True I hurt my shoulder about 3 years ago trying to bench press 300 lbs lol I got it half way up and failed about 2 days later I was in some pretty hardcore pain of course I wasn't so smart about lifting back then

 

[DerickVonD]

http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e51/BrainStorm_wow/Other/?action=view&current=HPIM1254.mp4
this is me overhead pressing

 

[ZiR RED]

Elbows are flaired out, and you're supporting all the weight with your lumbar vertebrae. Niether is good, your elbows should be pointing forward at the bottom of the ROM, and your should try to keep a neutral back by keeping your hips behind you.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

Elbows are flaired out, and you're supporting all the weight with your lumbar vertebrae. Niether is good, your elbows should be pointing forward at the bottom of the ROM, and your should try to keep a neutral back by keeping your hips behind you.

Br

I'm having trouble with pointing my elbows forward. I think I lack flexibility.

 

[DerickVonD]

I can't seem to bring my elbows forward, what can I do? Am I lacking flexibility? Is there any stretches I can do? I've been doing shoulder dislocations.My form looks terrible and thsi is driving me crazy. It's like I get thrown off balance when moving my elbows forward. I can not do any better than in the video I posted and I'm really frustrated. I've done presses before. I'm having trouble shifting forward at the top and bringing my elbows forward, I need help.

 

[B5150]

Pain your your body's message to stop doing what you are doing. Stop.
If you desire to preform the exercise with better form consider a seated smith rack press.

His guys elbows are a bit wide. I suggest you grip the bar with your thumbs at the point of or just slightly wider than your anterior deltoid. Press it up in front of you without flaring your elbows.

BTW - when done with proper form and concentration you are not required to use a lot of weight to grow muscle. Additionally, not everyone's skeletal mechanics are symmetrical or engineered to preform every movement. Some thing you just are not born to do without damage or pain.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/SMShoulderPress.html

 

[DerickVonD]

Pain your your body's message to stop doing what you are doing. Stop.
If you desire to preform the exercise with better form consider a seated smith rack press.

His guys elbows are a bit wide. I suggest you grip the bar with your thumbs at the point of or just slightly wider than your anterior deltoid. Press it up in front of you without flaring your elbows.

BTW - when done with proper form and concentration you are not required to use a lot of weight to grow muscle. Additionally, not everyone's skeletal mechanics are symmetrical or engineered to preform every movement. Some thing you just are not born to do without damage or pain. It seems if the bar is positioned at my chin I can bring my elbows forward much eaiser, but if the bar is lower than that it's hard to do.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/SMShoulderPress.html

I was able to do the press before, however I wound up adding too much weight and doign the form wrong and hurting myself, but I was able to do the exercise with good form, but not as of late. I feel I lost alot of flexibility.

 

[10bathroomsO]

Pain your your body's message to stop doing what you are doing. Stop.
If you desire to preform the exercise with better form consider a seated smith rack press.

His guys elbows are a bit wide. I suggest you grip the bar with your thumbs at the point of or just slightly wider than your anterior deltoid. Press it up in front of you without flaring your elbows.

BTW - when done with proper form and concentration you are not required to use a lot of weight to grow muscle. Additionally, not everyone's skeletal mechanics are symmetrical or engineered to preform every movement. Some thing you just are not born to do without damage or pain.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/DeltoidAnterior/SMShoulderPress.html

study these words because it took me forever to learn this useful peice of information the hard way

 

[DerickVonD]

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-improve-your-thoracic-mobility/
found that I wonder if it'll help

 

[triton185]

I am one week out of shoulder surgery. Last fall my shoulders started hurting for the first time in my life! I backed off for a while and then started just doing dbs overhead.....then had to quit doing anything overhead....then started hurting so bad at night that I had to take vicodin to sleep. I have been out of the gym since late July because it hurt to do everything! Had surgery last week and can probably be back in the gym in 2 months because I had no tendon damage.

I dropped about $3,000 for my portion of the surgery and after all is said and done will have missed 6 months in the gym and hurt like a MFer every night for months! So, looking back, taking a month off in the gym when the pain first started doesn't seem like a bad deal, maybe I still would have had to have surgery but I will never know whether taking care of it early on might have saved me....who knows. I can say this tho, no matter what, if you keep working out, it will only get worse. Take time off....100% off....even if it is 2 months, it might save you a lot of time, money and pain. Good luck

 

[DerickVonD]

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-improve-your-thoracic-mobility/
I noticed when I first read this article that when I lay on my back with my arms behind me, my hands touch and my wrists touch the ground but barely and my arms don't touch the ground at all, I can't even have my arms straight they're bent.

 

[ZiR RED]

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-improve-your-thoracic-mobility/
I noticed when I first read this article that when I lay on my back with my arms behind me, my hands touch and my wrists touch the ground but barely and my arms don't touch the ground at all, I can't even have my arms straight they're bent.

Yes. Tight internal rotators (pecs, lats, anterior deltoids), tight scapula protractors (pecs, ant delts, serratus), tight posterior shoulder capsule, loose anterior shoulder capsule (likely, but not conclusive) and 2 strength imbalances:
scapula elevators > scapula depressors (upper trap fibers and levator scapulae > lower trap fibers and rhomboids)
scapula protractors > scapula retractors (pecs, ant delts, etc. > middle trap fibers, rhomboids, post delts).

Now that I can finally post links, check out these two articles I wrote:

http://www.muscleandscience.com/forum/showthread.php?4033-Gimme-that-glenoid-health!
http://www.muscleandscience.com/forum/showthread.php?4070-Healthy-Shoulders-in-2010

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

I'm going to continue to do dumbbell shoulder presses until I gain flexibility and heal. My bench doesn't become completely straight. When the back part comes all the way up, it has about a 10-15 degree curve. Could this mess my shoulders up, or cause me not to work my front delts as good? Picture a very slightly inclined dumbbell press, that's what its like. I can't do anyting about it until I get a good chair to use.

 

[ryansm]

Elbows are flaired out, and you're supporting all the weight with your lumbar vertebrae. Niether is good, your elbows should be pointing forward at the bottom of the ROM, and your should try to keep a neutral back by keeping your hips behind you.

Br

Bingo, Mr. Red is absolutely correct. Watching your video the thing that most worries me is you are supporting the weight on your lower lumbar. You can alleviate this by keeping your hips behind you, by keeping your body position mid-foot, or on your heels.

As far as elbow positioning, some of the others have pointed out some good advice. The lack of flexibility can be a number of issues. Try to focus on keeping your elbows up in the bottom position. You could learn this position by doing front squats holding the bar as you would at the bottom position of the over head press.

 

[team180]

Are you going for size or strength?

 

[DerickVonD]

Are you going for size or strength?

I mix of both. I'm hoping I can maybe become a wrestler, not big time but local, sometime in the near future. I want to be able to eventually pick people up. I'm doing dumbbell presses until my shoulder heals but the back part of the chair is slightly angled so my arms are slightly in front rather than at my sides. What this be a problem? If so I might have to do front raises for a bit until I can military press.

 

[team180]

Just do latteral raises with 80% rep range until it heals... Overheads can cause a slew of problems for some but not all people.. The people that do have problems with it also generally have problems with bench too... My advice and what i have people i work with who also have this problem do is decline bench press as well as only side lateral raises... I have some people with very large shoulders who are also very strong.. When you can do laterals with 70 lb db's cant say your not strong with bid delts...

 

[DerickVonD]

Just do latteral raises with 80% rep range until it heals... Overheads can cause a slew of problems for some but not all people.. The people that do have problems with it also generally have problems with bench too... My advice and what i have people i work with who also have this problem do is decline bench press as well as only side lateral raises... I have some people with very large shoulders who are also very strong.. When you can do laterals with 70 lb db's cant say your not strong with bid delts...

Well I've never had problems with the bench even now. My shoulder never hurt until I did upright rows. I'd still like to stimulate the front delt and rear delt. I'm wondering if I can do front raises until then. I've been doing dumbbell shoulder presses, lateral raises, rear delt raises(laying on a bench) and shrugs. Although like I said the back part of the bench I have is angled so my arms are slightly in front not at my sides, so I'm slightly inclined when I do dumb bell presses.

 

[team180]

I would stay away from the pressing if i were you...

 

[DerickVonD]

I would stay away from the pressing if i were you...

All presses or just any kind of over head press? I have no pain on chest days and I do 3 chest exercises? My shoulder felt liek it was healing until about 2 weeks ago I tried to back squat and felt like I pulled something. So, I guess I'm back to square one.

 

[team180]

All presses or just any kind of over head press? I have no pain on chest days and I do 3 chest exercises? My shoulder felt liek it was healing until about 2 weeks ago I tried to back squat and felt like I pulled something. So, I guess I'm back to square one.

Nothing overhead.... You wil find out that you dont need that much overhead pressing to pick so,eone up either.. Dont wanna give too much away :wink1:

 

[bassgod272]

Nothing overhead.... You wil find out that you dont need that much overhead pressing to pick so,eone up either.. Dont wanna give too much away :wink1:

Agreed. If you have pain then laterals, bent over rows, upright rows, chest presses, etc will suffice for delt growth. Just concentrate on healing up and then go back to starting out light on the overhead movements and work your way back up to the heavier weight. The broom stick stretching incorporated in DC training works AMAZING btw. Might wanna look into that.

 

[DerickVonD]

Agreed. If you have pain then laterals, bent over rows, upright rows, chest presses, etc will suffice for delt growth. Just concentrate on healing up and then go back to starting out light on the overhead movements and work your way back up to the heavier weight. The broom stick stretching incorporated in DC training works AMAZING btw. Might wanna look into that.

I do that stretch already, but I use a belt. upright rows are out for me though, that's how I hurt my shoulder in the first place.

 

[bassgod272]

I do that stretch already, but I use a belt. upright rows are out for me though, that's how I hurt my shoulder in the first place.

oh, ok yea definitely don't do those then lol.

 

[ZiR RED]

Wresting is about functionality. Never will you be pushing someone over your head from a seated position. In fact, you will be utilizing mostly legs in order to get them over head. Having a poor shoulder ROM, however, will not allow you to hold them over your head for long.

You need to strengthen your mid traps, rhomboids, and scapula depressors in order to achieve this.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

Wresting is about functionality. Never will you be pushing someone over your head from a seated position. In fact, you will be utilizing mostly legs in order to get them over head. Having a poor shoulder ROM, however, will not allow you to hold them over your head for long.

You need to strengthen your mid traps, rhomboids, and scapula depressors in order to achieve this.

Br

Well I'm going to continue to do those stretches I posted, read those articles you posed and wait 2 months before I even try to overhead press and substitute in front raises. Do you think it's okay to front squat in the mean time, since the bar is over the shoulders? It's the only way I can squat right now because of flexibility issues, but I am able to front squat with good form.

 

[ZiR RED]

I would not do any front raises. Based on what you're telling me, there is a muscular imbalance between your anterior > posterior deltoids. Do scapation exercises.

I see no problem with front squatting. You can use a modified grip (arms crossed) if you feel too much pressure on your shoulder.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

I would not do any front raises. Based on what you're telling me, there is a muscular imbalance between your anterior > posterior deltoids. Do scapation exercises.

I see no problem with front squatting. You can use a modified grip (arms crossed) if you feel too much pressure on your shoulder.

Br

So are you saying that front raises will prevent my shoulder from healing or that at this stage they are pretty much pointless?

 

[ZiR RED]

So are you saying that front raises will prevent my shoulder from healing or that at this stage they are pretty much pointless?

Both, they will exascberate (make worse) the muscular imbalances you currently have that played a role in the injury and prevent a full ROM. Second, you get plenty of anterior delt work and scapula protraction work in your chest pressing movements.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

Both, they will exascberate (make worse) the muscular imbalances you currently have that played a role in the injury and prevent a full ROM. Second, you get plenty of anterior delt work and scapula protraction work in your chest pressing movements.

Br

Just curious, what makes it sound like I have an imbalance rather than say inflexibility? I didn't have shoulder pain at all until I started doing upright rows. I later read some people can't do upright rows, something to do with their shoulder joint and some kind of rotation. I wish I never did upright rows.

 

[ZiR RED]

Muscular imblances are what usually cause inflexibility. The fact that you cannot lie on your back and bring your arm to the floor without bending lends me to hypothesize that you're shoulders are brought forward. This is due to overactive anterior delts, pec major and pec minor. On the flip side, the muscles opposing these are underactive (weak), being the lower traps, mid traps, rhomboids and rear delts. Thus, you should minimize work done to the overactive muscles to just enough to maintain strength and increase work on the underactive muscles.

Br

 

[Presa]

I underwent shoulder decompression for impingement a month ago. Per the physical therapist and sports Orthopaedist, the overhead press is the worst movement for any type of shoulder issues. Stick to lateral raises and machine lateral raises.

 

[DerickVonD]

Muscular imblances are what usually cause inflexibility. The fact that you cannot lie on your back and bring your arm to the floor without bending lends me to hypothesize that you're shoulders are brought forward. This is due to overactive anterior delts, pec major and pec minor. On the flip side, the muscles opposing these are underactive (weak), being the lower traps, mid traps, rhomboids and rear delts. Thus, you should minimize work done to the overactive muscles to just enough to maintain strength and increase work on the underactive muscles.

Br

okay thanks. I figure I'll just do those stretches and on shoulder days I'll just do my lateral raises, rear delt raises and shrugs. Once my arms can touch the ground and the pain goes away, which I hope happen around the same time, I'll start doing the military press with light weight. How long should I wait to do overhead presses once my shoulder heals and the imbalance is fixed? I was thinking about waiting an extra two weeks once the pain goes away, or do you think it's a good idea to wait an extra month after the pain is gone? Also do I need to take any exercises off of my chest day? This is what my chest day looks like.
Bench
Inclined DB press
Inclined DB flyes
Db Lying Triceps Extension
close grip bench

 

[ZiR RED]

Make sure you are doing work for the LOWER trapezius and mid traps/rhomboids. This should be your focus, not upper traps.

Search for scapula depressions and scapation exercises for the lower traps.
For the middle, face pulls, wide grip rows with an overhand grip, high pulley rows with bilateral cables, and of course, rear delt type movements.

I think the flyes are over kill, and cause too much protraction. Make sure you keep your shoulder blades pulled back on the presses.

As for time off and before you start doing over heads again, you'll have to feel it out. No way to give a definitive answer.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

Make sure you are doing work for the LOWER trapezius and mid traps/rhomboids. This should be your focus, not upper traps.

Search for scapula depressions and scapation exercises for the lower traps.
For the middle, face pulls, wide grip rows with an overhand grip, high pulley rows with bilateral cables, and of course, rear delt type movements.

I think the flyes are over kill, and cause too much protraction. Make sure you keep your shoulder blades pulled back on the presses.

As for time off and before you start doing over heads again, you'll have to feel it out. No way to give a definitive answer.

Br

Okay so just give up flys? I'll need to get a band for facepulls. I did scaptions for a bit and they felt very uncomfortable and I never progress on them, although idk if it's an exercise I'm suppose to progress on. I'll be moving into a new house soon and can't make it to the gym. I'm going to make a make shift tbar and I have a bench/squat station and dumbbell handles and I'm also getting a trap bar for shrugs. Is there another exercise I can do besides scaptions or am I stuck with them? Also I love doing rows on a tbar but HATE them with the barbell. I've been doing one arm rows.

 

[ZiR RED]

Nope, you need to be doing scapation exercises.

When doing rows, you need a wide and overhand grip to work the middle trapezius and rhomboids. Close grip or single arm arm rows work more of the lats.

Br

 

[DerickVonD]

Nope, you need to be doing scapation exercises.

When doing rows, you need a wide and overhand grip to work the middle trapezius and rhomboids. Close grip or single arm arm rows work more of the lats.

Br

Are my lats going to still get worked? I'm not doing any lat specific exercises, Should I just do them with a wide grip always or is it good to alternate to get in some good lat work?

 

[ZiR RED]

Your lats and teres will still be involved in the movement. Look into shoulder extensions with a rope. This is a good lat exercise as well as a good prehab-rehab movement for the shoulder joint.

Br

 

[Jake Fires]

not it is not especially if your not useing proper range of motion for your shoulder joint ( which most people do not use).

 

[hyperCat]

I underwent shoulder decompression for impingement a month ago. Per the physical therapist and sports Orthopaedist, the overhead press is the worst movement for any type of shoulder issues. Stick to lateral raises and machine lateral raises.

I had this same surgery almost a year ago, and I would say it still doesn't feel "normal". Bad thing is, my other shoulder is now having the same type of impingement, and I know for a fact that it was overhead presses that caused it. I'm kicking myself for doing overhead presses again, but it was always one of my stronger lifts that really got my shoulders and neck really thick and strong. Now I'm sticking to just mostly barbell rows and shrugs - no overhead presses for me anymore.

Hopefully I can get my other shoulder back to health without surgery, cause surgery just sucks. I'm not too optimistic at this point, tho.

 

[DerickVonD]

Agreed. If you have pain then laterals, bent over rows, upright rows, chest presses, etc will suffice for delt growth. Just concentrate on healing up and then go back to starting out light on the overhead movements and work your way back up to the heavier weight. The broom stick stretching incorporated in DC training works AMAZING btw. Might wanna look into that.

I noticed when I did the broom stick stretches, that I'm bending my elbows. When I try doing them with my arms straight I can get my arms alittle past my head. No wonder I can't do back squats yet. I really hope this issue goes away soon.