I want to do clean bulking, I am a vegetarian.

Hanu@SR

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I've just dropped the ideo of using gear, the thing is I need to bulk, but whenever I start bulking, I tend to gain more fat weight than muscles, now you will say it means I'm having too much calories and less protien but that's not the case because I monitor every single drop, I even come short on calories but not protien, I excercise 5 days a week, taking 3g of Creatine, Multi vitamin, 3 scoops of whey. My Calorie Intake in 2600, 150g of protien. Now about genetics, I am the first person to go to gym, my family doesn't have greatest of genetics most people are fat or skinny fat. I have some manged to not to be either of those, but still I don't have good size, I bulk every year for last 3 years then lose some of that, but doesn't get any major muscles changes. What should I do ? i am doing basics right ?
 

Hanu@SR

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To add up this is my diet
Breakfast - 80 g of Porridge, 400 ml milk, fruit salad, multivitamin, peanut butter

Brunch - whey Protien with 330 ml, Nuts 50g

Lunch - Yoghurt 100 g, any Bread dish, salad

Pre workout meal (2.5 hrs before)- 50g Soya chunks

Post workout - whey protien, PB sandwich, Creatine

Dinner - Roti ( Indian Bread, with veg dish, Yogurt 80g )

Bed time - Nuts 50g , 330 ml Milk, Omega 3

Cal - 2600
Fat - 90
Protien - 150
 
Smont

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Eat more food and workout harder. You gotta eat enough to gain weight but you also need to work hard so that food goes twords muscle and not fat.

Eliminate soy products, they raise estrogen and lower testosterone

Eat more
Eggs
Greek Yogurt
Cheese
Rice and beans
And any other whole food complete protein sources

That's about the best I can do.
 
KvanH

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Eat more food and workout harder. You gotta eat enough to gain weight but you also need to work hard so that food goes twords muscle and not fat.

Eliminate soy products, they raise estrogen and lower testosterone

Eat more
Eggs
Greek Yogurt
Cheese
Rice and beans
And any other whole food complete protein sources

That's about the best I can do.
I may be wrong, as I don't eat soy, so anything related has not really been under my 'investigation', but I've been under the impression, that the soy's effect on estro or hormones is pretty much a myth.. Or at least the effect is on the level, that makes it a non factor in practice.
 
Smont

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I may be wrong, as I don't eat soy, so anything related has not really been under my 'investigation', but I've been under the impression, that the soy's effect on estro or hormones is pretty much a myth.. Or at least the effect is on the level, that makes it a non factor in practice.
You should start eating lots of soy then
 
KvanH

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You should start eating lots of soy then
Lol, no need. But that's just the latest info that I've happened to come across. But also like I said, I don't have a strong opinion on this, never researched the topic on purpose.
 
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Smont

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I may be wrong, as I don't eat soy, so anything related has not really been under my 'investigation', but I've been under the impression, that the soy's effect on estro or hormones is pretty much a myth.. Or at least the effect is on the level, that makes it a non factor in practice.
Pretty sure it was a ve
Lol, no need. But that's just the latest info what I've happened to come across. But also like I said, I don't have a strong opinion on this, never researched the topic on purpose.
I can't say I'm 100% positive because I haven't done any "studies". And I'm gonna sound like a conspiracy theorist here but I find it awful funny that for years the evidence pointed to Soy lowers testosterone, but now with modern society being feminized, men have 1/4 the test levels of our grandparents and now soy doesn't lower testosterone.

Do I think think having soy sauce or tofu once in a while is gonna hurt, no. But I think if it's in yiur daily diet it will lower testosterone. Different topic but I've seen ppls free testosterone drop after adding flaxseed to there diets.
 

Hanu@SR

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Pretty sure it was a ve

I can't say I'm 100% positive because I haven't done any "studies". And I'm gonna sound like a conspiracy theorist here but I find it awful funny that for years the evidence pointed to Soy lowers testosterone, but now with modern society being feminized, men have 1/4 the test levels of our grandparents and now soy doesn't lower testosterone.

Do I think think having soy sauce or tofu once in a while is gonna hurt, no. But I think if it's in yiur daily diet it will lower testosterone. Different topic but I've seen ppls free testosterone drop after adding flaxseed to there diets.
What flax seeds reduce free test??? Being a vegi my omega supp is comprised of flax mainly
 
KvanH

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Pretty sure it was a ve

I can't say I'm 100% positive because I haven't done any "studies". And I'm gonna sound like a conspiracy theorist here but I find it awful funny that for years the evidence pointed to Soy lowers testosterone, but now with modern society being feminized, men have 1/4 the test levels of our grandparents and now soy doesn't lower testosterone.

Do I think think having soy sauce or tofu once in a while is gonna hurt, no. But I think if it's in yiur daily diet it will lower testosterone. Different topic but I've seen ppls free testosterone drop after adding flaxseed to there diets.
Ok, interesting. I may try to look into it a little bit on weekend, out of interest. For what ever my internet research would be worth.

Sorry, I don't understand this part "Pretty sure it was a ve". ?
 

Resolve10

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I may be wrong, as I don't eat soy, so anything related has not really been under my 'investigation', but I've been under the impression, that the soy's effect on estro or hormones is pretty much a myth.. Or at least the effect is on the level, that makes it a non factor in practice.
Ya, as with most things, if you don't over do it you'll be fine.

Meta
Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones

There are some limited cases showing issue with excessive intake, but it also has studies showing improvement on heart health and cancer risk (particularly prostate in men).

You won't get many people wanting to objectively talk about it though.

For OP if you aren't getting the results you want it can be a ton of things, but you can bulk on a vegetarian diet, especially if you are careful and get adequate protein, so if things aren't going the way you want it may not be diet related.
 

Hanu@SR

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Ya, as with most things, if you don't over do it you'll be fine.

Meta
Effect of protein source and resistance training on body composition and sex hormones

There are some limited cases showing issue with excessive intake, but it also has studies showing improvement on heart health and cancer risk (particularly prostate in men).

You won't get many people wanting to objectively talk about it though.

For OP if you aren't getting the results you want it can be a ton of things, but you can bulk on a vegetarian diet, especially if you are careful and get adequate protein, so if things aren't going the way you want it may not be diet related.
Coming to workout then, my every exercise ends at, I do 4/3 sets, in which in final 2 are always failure, even after failure I try do reps negative with support. I sleep like 9 hours. Coming to tt levels I've not done test but looking at libido, it looks great.
 
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Ok, interesting. I may try to look into it a little bit on weekend, out of interest. For what ever my internet research would be worth.

Sorry, I don't understand this part "Pretty sure it was a ve". ?
I was starting to respond to a different post but I decided not to and then didn't erase it lol.

I was gonna say that I'm pretty sure that the only study I saw saying soy doesn't lower testosterone was backed by a vegan but I only have seen that 1 study so my statement doesn't really mean much. I mean I'm not exactly studying the effects of soy on testosterone in my free time.

I also eat ground flax seed but again, my hormones are artificial lol
 
Smont

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Coming to workout then, my every exercise ends at, I do 4/3 sets, in which in final 2 are always failure, even after failure I try do reps negative with support. I sleep like 9 hours. Coming to tt levels I've not done test but looking at libido, it looks great.
You very well may have great testosterone levels but high libido doesn't mean high testosterone. There's 80yr old men with high libido and low test levels.

Like mentioned above, there's a lot of variables that may be the issue but typically for a natural Lifter with adequate hormone levels I would look to diet, training and recovery in that order. Opinions may vary, that's just my opinion
 
KvanH

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Yeah, libido alone is not a good gauge on test levels. And as none of us can be present to see OP train and implement diet and stuff, it's really hard to pin point the issue(s). That's why I said to hire a coach. And it wasn't a pun.

150 g of protein is quite low though. And even more so with a vegetarian diet, where a lot of the proteins in the diet may not have the best amino acid profiles.
 
Smont

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150 g of protein is quite low though. And even more so with a vegetarian diet, where a lot of the proteins in the diet may not have the best amino acid profiles.
Good point
 
MrKleen73

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I see you have the 2600 listed as your calories but you did not tell us how much you weigh, which is a big factor. Also what activity level the time outside of training is. If more sedentary the caloric needs could be a lot lower than you are estimating. I have no doubts that you could very well be eating this very strictly but if it is too much regardless of how strict you are on it then it is too much.

Also from what it looks like from your diet you are very high in simple carbs and sugars which induce an insulin spike. Insulin is the storage hormone so you are going shuttle nutrients into somewhere and if not the muscle then it will be the fat. Adjusting to more complex carbs could help. Lowering carb intake more could help if you have insulin sensitivity issues, which if you do your diet is probably not helping the situation. Most of your protein seems to come from animal products so you should have a moderately decent amino acid profile. However, your post workout meal should definitely be a fast digesting protein source that has a high leucine content if trying to spur muscle growth more. Also replacing some of the carbs with protein is an easy way to get cals up but forces the body to burn more calories just to digest the protein and causes far less of an insulin release.

You might also try moving more of your carbs toward your workout, especially during and after if focusing hypertrophy. Your body is more likely to absorb the glycogen then, and less likely to store fat due to the response to the training session.
 
Dustin07

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I excercise 5 days a week, taking 3g of Creatine, Multi vitamin, 3 scoops of whey. My Calorie Intake in 2600, 150g of protien.
This unfortunately doesn't really say anything except that 600 calories of your 2600 are protein... What kind of protein? complete? animal? what's the other 2,000 calories? what's your metabolic baseline? 3g of creatine is useless IMO. Mrs Maisel exercised 5 days a week too, what's your lifting routine/log? I don't mean to be rude (it is in my nature though) but there are a lot more details missing here.

Soy lowers testosterone, but now with modern society being feminized, men have 1/4 the test levels of our grandparents and now soy doesn't lower testosterone.
There is a reason the term soy boys exists. People want to argue over it but I see no value in soy.



even this discussion attempts to be less biased, but still leans anti soy in the end (IMO)


You very well may have great testosterone levels but high libido doesn't mean high testosterone. There's 80yr old men with high libido and low test levels.
JFC man my wife's libido is fine and I have at least 5% more T than her. I hope

😅
 
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This unfortunately doesn't really say anything except that 600 calories of your 2600 are protein... What kind of protein? complete? animal? what's the other 2,000 calories? what's your metabolic baseline? 3g of creatine is useless IMO. Mrs Maisel exercised 5 days a week too, what's your lifting routine/log? I don't mean to be rude (it is in my nature though) but there are a lot more details missing here.



There is a reason the term soy boys exists. People want to argue over it but I see no value in soy.



even this discussion attempts to be less biased, but still leans anti soy in the end (IMO)




JFC man my wife's libido is fine and I have at least 5% more T than her. I hope

😅
Lol
 
ZLB70

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I haven’t read this whole thread 100% all the way but as far as the soy conversation it’s worth a try to eliminate it for a while and assess the results.
 

Hanu@SR

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I see you have the 2600 listed as your calories but you did not tell us how much you weigh, which is a big factor. Also what activity level the time outside of training is. If more sedentary the caloric needs could be a lot lower than you are estimating. I have no doubts that you could very well be eating this very strictly but if it is too much regardless of how strict you are on it then it is too much.

Also from what it looks like from your diet you are very high in simple carbs and sugars which induce an insulin spike. Insulin is the storage hormone so you are going shuttle nutrients into somewhere and if not the muscle then it will be the fat. Adjusting to more complex carbs could help. Lowering carb intake more could help if you have insulin sensitivity issues, which if you do your diet is probably not helping the situation. Most of your protein seems to come from animal products so you should have a moderately decent amino acid profile. However, your post workout meal should definitely be a fast digesting protein source that has a high leucine content if trying to spur muscle growth more. Also replacing some of the carbs with protein is an easy way to get cals up but forces the body to burn more calories just to digest the protein and causes far less of an insulin release.

You might also try moving more of your carbs toward your workout, especially during and after if focusing hypertrophy. Your body is more likely to absorb the glycogen then, and less likely to store fat due to the response to the training session.
My weight is 65 I am 5'10.
Yes my diet has too much of simple carbs, the things for vegetarian most complete protien source are the milk products and when you add them to diet you got a lot of simple carbs now If I add more things for complex carbs it will increase the calorie intake. About my life style it's very lazy the only physical activities that I do is exercise in gym and s@x.
 

Hanu@SR

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And about coach, my trainer says it's time for you to run gear, which from the other thread I posted lots of people suggested no I am not. That too the combinations he suggests are voted nay by the guys at the site. And I am going with opinion that I've recieved here than my trainer's because I know him from childhood and he isn't the sharpest tool.
 
Rad83

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Drop your trainer….

Get on a real program, Keep a log book of your workouts.

Consider dropping the vegetarianism.
 
KvanH

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Yeah, the no gear is the right decision at this point, imo.

Increase protein intake. Maybe try either of these prewritten programs or silghtly modified for yourself.



Or if someone else has other, maybe a little 'easier' prewritten programs to recommend (or would be willing to compile one for you). At 3 years of trying to bulk, sitting at 65 kg, while complaining about fat gain, I don't trust the workouts you've been doing with your 'trainer'.
 
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Smont

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And about coach, my trainer says it's time for you to run gear, which from the other thread I posted lots of people suggested no I am not. That too the combinations he suggests are voted nay by the guys at the site. And I am going with opinion that I've recieved here than my trainer's because I know him from childhood and he isn't the sharpest tool.
If that was your trainers suggestion then he has no clue what he's doing and he's suggested gear to cover up the fact he's not a good trainer
 
Dustin07

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wait, you're 143lbs, 5'10" and feel like you're gaining fat?
 

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Seriously OP, why do you not eat meat? Is it health reasons or just a personal choice. It’s going to be much harder to put on lean muscle from plant protein only. Im not saying it can’t be done. It’s just harder.
 
KvanH

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wait, you're 143lbs, 5'10" and feel like you're gaining fat?
lol could be anything but I haven't weighed 143 since I wrestled at 148 when I was 15 and i'm 5'9" lol
I weighed 145 when I was 14 and I’m 5’10”. Now I weigh 225 lol!
Yeah, I'm quite amazed by that as well. Usually I would tell someone, that's 5'10'' and weighing 65 kg, that they need to start eating way more. But if there's already too much fat gain for his liking, then that's just odd, going by the numbers.
 
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Dustin07

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Yeah, I'm quite amazed by that as well. Usually I would tell someone, that's 5'10'' and weighing 65 kg, that they need to start eating way more. But if there's already too much fat gain for their liking, then that's just odd, going by the numbers.
could also be that he's not as lean as he thinks, and eating + lifting is causing him to fill out but without pics who knows
 
MrKleen73

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Seriously OP, why do you not eat meat? Is it health reasons or just a personal choice. It’s going to be much harder to put on lean muscle from plant protein only. Im not saying it can’t be done. It’s just harder.
He is a vegetarian not vegan. He can get all his protein from eggs, dairy and whey, so getting protein in shouldn't be hard. He already uses a decent amount of whey. He should be okay other than probably needing more iron. I think most Vegetarians are that way due to love an animals. Vegans do it as their religion and to virtue signal. ;)
 
Dustin07

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I think most Vegetarians are that way due to love an animals. Vegans do it as their religion and to virtue signal. ;)
I might be related to some younger people who 100% do it because they think it's healthier, and to virtue signal and the irony is their daily intake of soy and lentils leaves them as some of the most sickly people I know.
 

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He is a vegetarian not vegan. He can get all his protein from eggs, dairy and whey, so getting protein in shouldn't be hard. He already uses a decent amount of whey. He should be okay other than probably needing more iron. I think most Vegetarians are that way due to love an animals. Vegans do it as their religion and to virtue signal. ;)
I miss read. I thought he said vegan lol. But the curiosity got me on why he doesn’t eat meat. My recent college graduate nephew that is very liberal turned vegan before he graduated. He said he did it for health reasons but like you said, the virtue signaling is strong these days. It didn’t last long. Right back to eating meat. I’ve got no problem with someone being vegan or vegetation but don’t look down on others because they eat meat.
 
KvanH

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I miss read. I thought he said vegan lol. But the curiosity got me on why he doesn’t eat meat. My recent college graduate nephew that is very liberal turned vegan before he graduated. He said he did it for health reasons but like you said, the virtue signaling is strong these days. It didn’t last long. Right back to eating meat. I’ve got no problem with someone being vegan or vegetation but don’t look down on others because they eat meat.
I know that's likely a typo, but fits even better 😂
 
Kevin T

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I miss read. I thought he said vegan lol. But the curiosity got me on why he doesn’t eat meat. My recent college graduate nephew that is very liberal turned vegan before he graduated. He said he did it for health reasons but like you said, the virtue signaling is strong these days. It didn’t last long. Right back to eating meat. I’ve got no problem with someone being vegan or vegetation but don’t look down on others because they eat meat.
A few years ago there was an article that said: Woman dies climbing Mount Everest to prove that vegans are as healthy as everyone else. The very first comment said: She died doing what she loved...Telling people she's a vegan!
 

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