I am on letro 2.5mg/day

[mcr]

Never took any steroids, just had elevated estradiol because of a medication I took which caused gyno.

After gyno surgery I am trying to get rid of the remaining fat and reset hormone levels back to high T and low E. (doctor's orders)

Has anyone taken 2.5mg/day before? Does it work in reducing gyno fat? Are there any before and after pictures?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

You had gyno surgery, any “fat” you have is just fat lol. Only way you can fix that is diet and training/cardio. What’s your bloodwork look like? Letro at 2.5mg a day is way too much.

 

[Cscott622]

I dont think you'll reset anything with 2.5 mg a day. More like no E at all

 

[bad rad]

It's been shown to normalize the HTPA in men from once weekly to daily dosing. With an intact HPTA the estrogen suppression is less than a guy on cycle.

Here's a study using daily dosing. It basically doubled T levels in each group.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/90/10/5717/2839298

 

[mcr]

You had gyno surgery, any “fat” you have is just fat lol. Only way you can fix that is diet and training/cardio. What’s your bloodwork look like? Letro at 2.5mg a day is way too much.

No bloodwork yet, but previously I was on letro 2x a week, and it reduced estradiol by about 60%

I dont think you'll reset anything with 2.5 mg a day. More like no E at all

andrologist's opinion

It's been shown to normalize the HTPA in men from once weekly to daily dosing. With an intact HPTA the estrogen suppression is less than a guy on cycle.

Here's a study using daily dosing. It basically doubled T levels in each group.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/90/10/5717/2839298

good study

there's this belief that letro annihilates 99% of estradiol, but it doesn't seem to be the case. it has a considerable effect but nothing like those myths would have you believe

my chest used to be super flat and that's what i'm trying to get back basically. how can i achieve this if letrozole fails?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

No bloodwork yet, but previously I was on letro 2x a week, and it reduced estradiol by about 60%

andrologist's opinion



good study

there's this belief that letro annihilates 99% of estradiol, but it doesn't seem to be the case. it has a considerable effect but nothing like those myths would have you believe

my chest used to be super flat and that's what i'm trying to get back basically. how can i achieve this if letrozole fails?

You’ve had gyno surgery; any fat in your chest is simply because you’re just carrying fat. You’ll have to lose weight for that.

 

[mcr]

You’ve had gyno surgery; any fat in your chest is simply because you’re just carrying fat. You’ll have to lose weight for that.

I understand bodyfat but this is not like that. before, when my bodyfat was higher, my chest still remained flat. With this, even with low bodyfat, there is an unnatural puffiness and fat buildup around the chest. It's not a lot, but it's noticeable enough to ruin the natural look of the male chest. Does that make sense? That's what I'm trying to get rid of.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I understand bodyfat but this is not like that. before, when my bodyfat was higher, my chest still remained flat. With this, even with low bodyfat, there is an unnatural puffiness and fat buildup around the chest. It's not a lot, but it's noticeable enough to ruin the natural look of the male chest. Does that make sense? That's what I'm trying to get rid of.

Hmmm, I don’t know then. Hard to understand just from how you’re explaining it.

 

[mcr]

when people go on cycle does it usually affect any fat they have around their chest? like if they have fat deposits around the chest, does it clear it up?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

when people go on cycle does it usually affect any fat they have around their chest? like if they have fat deposits around the chest, does it clear it up?

If you hold fat in your chest, it’s probably just genetic and you’ll have to lean out to fix it.

 

[mcr]

If you hold fat in your chest, it’s probably just genetic and you’ll have to lean out to fix it.

It's not genetic, I had a perfectly flat chest all my life. I only started having these problems after I took the medication that caused me gyno.

 

[mattwv]

Perhaps building up the muscle in your chest in combination with fat loss to a low body fat % would help the appearance. Maybe your skinny fat. I struggled with being skinny fat for a long time.

 

[Hyde]

I had gyno from puberty and then anabolics made it worse. I aromatize things very easily and having higher body fat (20+%) only makes aromatization worse. But both my dad and older brothers have gyno I now realize, and one brother has always been lean and athletic, always had abs, and still has gyno.

In addition to true gyno, which is developed glandular tissue, just as prevalent in many with gyno is pseudo-gyno, which is estrogen-sensitive fatty tissue. Many men have a mix of both. I had gyno surgery and the doctor actually did a lipectomy to suck out fat in the area AND LEFT THE GYNO. I had him go back in for free and cut some of the gland out.

The surgery made a tremendous difference and I’m very pleased I had it done, but there is still plenty of both glandular tissue as well as fat - and this tissue is all still sensitive to estrogen, so can continue to regrow in response to a higher estrogen environment like if I cycle androgens.

TLDR:
The chest fat can be lowered by losing body fat but like all fat cells they exist permanently once created - they must actually be cut/sucked out to remove the cells. Losing fat only shrinks them. My most sincere advice is just to learn to love your body - it is normal for a man to have some chest fat. Be a man, and be proud of who YOU are.

 

[Hyde]

Also some time prior to the surgery I ran letro at 2.5/day as well, 6 weeks. It shrunk all the gyno down, then I tapered off and it swelled right back to normal when my hormones returned to homeostasis. Only thing I got out of it was bad cholesterol and a limp dick til things normalized.

 

[mcr]

I had gyno from puberty and then anabolics made it worse. I aromatize things very easily and having higher body fat (20+%) only makes aromatization worse. But both my dad and older brothers have gyno I now realize, and one brother has always been lean and athletic, always had abs, and still has gyno.

In addition to true gyno, which is developed glandular tissue, just as prevalent in many with gyno is pseudo-gyno, which is estrogen-sensitive fatty tissue. Many men have a mix of both. I had gyno surgery and the doctor actually did a lipectomy to suck out fat in the area AND LEFT THE GYNO. I had him go back in for free and cut some of the gland out.

The surgery made a tremendous difference and I’m very pleased I had it done, but there is still plenty of both glandular tissue as well as fat - and this tissue is all still sensitive to estrogen, so can continue to regrow in response to a higher estrogen environment like if I cycle androgens.

TLDR:
The chest fat can be lowered by losing body fat but like all fat cells they exist permanently once created - they must actually be cut/sucked out to remove the cells. Losing fat only shrinks them. My most sincere advice is just to learn to love your body - it is normal for a man to have some chest fat. Be a man, and be proud of who YOU are.

sounds like me, in that i had surgery to remove glandular tissue and fatty tissue, and after surgery my chest was perfectly flat, but the fatty tissue regrew in response to elevated estradiol. otherwise i never had the slightest gyno my chest was always flat before this condition

it's not about loving your body it's about finding a solution to a condition

Also some time prior to the surgery I ran letro at 2.5/day as well, 6 weeks. It shrunk all the gyno down, then I tapered off and it swelled right back to normal when my hormones returned to homeostasis. Only thing I got out of it was bad cholesterol and a limp dick til things normalized.

this may be why the doctor said i had to be on letro for two years minimum, basically to reset my hormone levels back to where they were

what is your estradiol level? have you ever tried tamoxifen?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

sounds like me, in that i had surgery to remove glandular tissue and fatty tissue, and after surgery my chest was perfectly flat, but the fatty tissue regrew in response to elevated estradiol. otherwise i never had the slightest gyno my chest was always flat before this condition

it's not about loving your body it's about finding a solution to a condition



this may be why the doctor said i had to be on letro for two years minimum, basically to reset my hormone levels back to where they were

what is your estradiol level? have you ever tried tamoxifen?

I don’t understand how letro would set hormones back to normal; it would crash your estrogen. What’s wrong with your hormones atm?

 

[mcr]

I don’t understand how letro would set hormones back to normal; it would crash your estrogen. What’s wrong with your hormones atm?

I used to have normal, optimal hormone levels, high T, low estradiol

then i started using finasteride for hair loss, which is a feminizing drug and should be illegal, but this information was hidden from the public by the pharma company because they were making billions from hair loss treatment. anyway, i took it for like 5 years, which caused my estradiol to rise progressively. after i stopped i was left with less than half the testosterone i normally had, and twice the estradiol. the finasteride was just doing its job basically. it's NOT just a harmless DHT blocker as they'll have you believe, it does much more

now to reverse this change, i need the letro, which lowers estradiol and causes T to rise. it's basically doing the opposite of what the feminizing drug does and "re-teaches" the body that it is supposed to have high T and low estradiol. after the body "accepts" these levels as normal again, you can hopefully taper off and hope the body stays that way

this is in a nutshell. i hope this makes sense

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I used to have normal, optimal hormone levels, high T, low estradiol

then i started using finasteride for hair loss, which is a feminizing drug and should be illegal, but this information was hidden from the public by the pharma company because they were making billions from hair loss treatment. anyway, i took it for like 5 years, which caused my estradiol to rise progressively. after i stopped i was left with less than half the testosterone i normally had, and twice the estradiol. the finasteride was just doing its job basically. it's NOT just a harmless DHT blocker as they'll have you believe, it does much more

now to reverse this change, i need the letro, which lowers estradiol and causes T to rise. it's basically doing the opposite of what the feminizing drug does and "re-teaches" the body that it is supposed to have high T and low estradiol. after the body "accepts" these levels as normal again, you can hopefully taper off and hope the body stays that way

this is in a nutshell. i hope this makes sense

Makes sense, although clomid+arimidex/aromasin would probably be the better way to go imo. Best of luck

 

[mcr]

Makes sense, although clomid+arimidex/aromasin would probably be the better way to go imo. Best of luck

why do you say they would be better?

to be honest the doctor gave me adex first but i couldn't stand being on it, didn't feel good. also it only lowered my estradiol a small percentage, like 20%, whereas letrozole was faaar more effective even at just twice a week

never tried clomid or aromasin, don't know much about them

 

[MrKleen73]

I understand bodyfat but this is not like that. before, when my bodyfat was higher, my chest still remained flat. With this, even with low bodyfat, there is an unnatural puffiness and fat buildup around the chest. It's not a lot, but it's noticeable enough to ruin the natural look of the male chest. Does that make sense? That's what I'm trying to get rid of.

You may just have to get to and maintain a lower level of body fat.

Hmmm, I don’t know then. Hard to understand just from how you’re explaining it.

why do you say they would be better?

to be honest the doctor gave me adex first but i couldn't stand being on it, didn't feel good. also it only lowered my estradiol a small percentage, like 20%, whereas letrozole was faaar more effective even at just twice a week

never tried clomid or aromasin, don't know much about them

I won't second guess your doctor, but as of now running 25mg of clomid a day is an excellent way to increase testosterone. It is being used instead of TRT with great success right now. It does not lower estrogen levels though which is why he is recommending an AI be run with it.

The simple act of lowering estrogen increases LH production which tells the body to produce more testosterone. So I see in the two fold why lowering estrogen would be desirable add to that helping you lose the psuedogyno.

I just don't understand the mechanism by which it is supposed to reset the HPTA. Teaching the body that lower estrogen and higher testosterone should be the homeostasis target makes sense but then you will completely disrupt the homeostasis when you remove the letro and your body freaks out trying to figure out how to lower the sudden influx of estrogen once the letro is out of your system. So, I am guessing the thought process is that at that point the body will only produce enough aromatase enzyme to get you to your new lower estrogen set point. I can see it now that I typed it out... I am just unsure that the body won't also think it needs to make an excess of aromatase enzymes since it spent 2 years making a fug ton of it and wasn't able to make a dent in anything due to being bound by the letro for 2 years. Seems there might be a serious rebound when you come off of the letro.

 

[Hyde]

As long as you’re on letro, the fat will shrink. Radarine I have found to shrink while on it as well, and tamoxifen and raloxifene work great. But I’ve never stayed on those drugs for longer than 6-12 weeks, so I cannot say what 2 years would do.

6-12 weeks, everything begins reversing when you come off.

 

[bad rad]

I think you could get by with once a week dosing. There are similarities in your situation and the subjects of this study.

RESULTS:
Six weeks of treatment reduced total E(2) from 123+/-11 to 58+/-7 pmol/l (P<0.001, mean+/-s.e.m.), and increased serum LH from 4.4+/-0.6 to 11.1+/-1.5 U/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose from 5.9+/-0.5 to 19.6+/-1.4 nmol/l (P<0.001), and free testosterone from 163+/-13 to 604+/-50 pmol/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose to within the normal range in all subjects, whereas free testosterone rose to supraphysiological levels in 7 out of 12 men. The testosterone and E(2) levels were stable throughout the week and during the 6-month treatment period.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18426834

 

[mcr]

You may just have to get to and maintain a lower level of body fat.




I won't second guess your doctor, but as of now running 25mg of clomid a day is an excellent way to increase testosterone. It is being used instead of TRT with great success right now. It does not lower estrogen levels though which is why he is recommending an AI be run with it.

The simple act of lowering estrogen increases LH production which tells the body to produce more testosterone. So I see in the two fold why lowering estrogen would be desirable add to that helping you lose the psuedogyno.

I just don't understand the mechanism by which it is supposed to reset the HPTA. Teaching the body that lower estrogen and higher testosterone should be the homeostasis target makes sense but then you will completely disrupt the homeostasis when you remove the letro and your body freaks out trying to figure out how to lower the sudden influx of estrogen once the letro is out of your system. So, I am guessing the thought process is that at that point the body will only produce enough aromatase enzyme to get you to your new lower estrogen set point. I can see it now that I typed it out... I am just unsure that the body won't also think it needs to make an excess of aromatase enzymes since it spent 2 years making a fug ton of it and wasn't able to make a dent in anything due to being bound by the letro for 2 years. Seems there might be a serious rebound when you come off of the letro.

my understanding is that, just like the finasteride was able to shift the entire feedback loop and get it offtrack, the letro gets it back on track, and as a result the pseudogyno has no reason to be there. this takes a long time but once it happens i can taper off and not cause any major shifts

As long as you’re on letro, the fat will shrink. Radarine I have found to shrink while on it as well, and tamoxifen and raloxifene work great. But I’ve never stayed on those drugs for longer than 6-12 weeks, so I cannot say what 2 years would do.

6-12 weeks, everything begins reversing when you come off.

i would love to know whether tamoxifen is better, especially that i know it targets estrogen receptors in the breast specifically. if anyone has ever tried both and posted about it i'd love to know

I think you could get by with once a week dosing. There are similarities in your situation and the subjects of this study.

RESULTS:
Six weeks of treatment reduced total E(2) from 123+/-11 to 58+/-7 pmol/l (P<0.001, mean+/-s.e.m.), and increased serum LH from 4.4+/-0.6 to 11.1+/-1.5 U/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose from 5.9+/-0.5 to 19.6+/-1.4 nmol/l (P<0.001), and free testosterone from 163+/-13 to 604+/-50 pmol/l (P<0.001). Total testosterone rose to within the normal range in all subjects, whereas free testosterone rose to supraphysiological levels in 7 out of 12 men. The testosterone and E(2) levels were stable throughout the week and during the 6-month treatment period.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18426834

love the study but too bad they don't say what happened after they came off the letro, that's the crucial part