How Hillary used Obama’s FBI to illegally spy and start a coup.

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Hillary Clinton loyalists fed the FBI’s upper echelon an assortment of anti-Donald Trump criminal accusations during the 2016 campaign and his presidency, according to a string of interview transcripts released in recent weeks.

James A. Baker, former FBI general counsel who participated on the receiving end, testified that the situation was “horrible” and “highly unusual.”

At least 10 of Mrs. Clinton’s supporters directly or via middlemen told the bureau tales about Russia-Trump conspiracies. It appears to be an unprecedented effort by a presidential campaign and the party in power to count on the FBI to knock out the other party’s candidate and president.

The transcripts create the picture of an FBI not always following expected norms as it activated an unofficial conveyor belt to make sure the allegations reached the counterintelligence division. It opened an investigation into the Trump campaign on July 31, 2016. In October, it began wiretapping at least one Republican while dispatching possibly multiple undercover sources to spy.

In the end, the Democratic Party-financed charges fell flat. Special counsel Robert Mueller reported last month that his 22-month investigation failed to establish a Trump-Russia conspiracy to interfere in the election by computer hacking and social media trolling.

Attorney General William P. Barr testified to Congress that he personally is reviewing how the FBI began the Trump investigation. He said that Obama officials spied on the Republican’s campaign and that he is trying to determine whether it was justified.

Mr. Baker, a former top legal adviser to bureau Director James B. Comey, testified last year to a House judiciary oversight task force that he became skeptical of anti-Trump data.

“I had a jaundiced eye about everything, yes,” Mr. Baker said. “I had skepticism about all this stuff. I was concerned about all of this. This whole situation was horrible, and it was novel and we were trying to figure out what to do, and it was highly unusual.”

A transcript of his closed-door testimony was released by Rep. Doug Collins, Georgia Republican. He has posted a series of such transcripts from an investigation that ended in January when Democrats took control of the House and turned all their guns on President Trump.

In one plot line, Clinton operatives tried to sell the same conspiracy theory to different levels at the Justice Department.

Mr. Baker said Michael Sussmann, a lawyer at the firm that represented the Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee, met with him to pitch the infamous Alfa Bank server story. The Democrats’ theory was that the Trump Organization maintained a direct computer server hookup to Moscow’s Alfa Bank, owned by oligarchs close to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Mr. Trump’s election didn’t derail the Alfa effort. In December 2016, Associate Deputy Attorney General Bruce Ohr met with Glenn R. Simpson, a co-founder of the private investigative firm Fusion GPS. It had hired Christopher Steele the previous June. The erstwhile British intelligence officer went on to produce the unverified anti-Trump dossier, financed by Democrats.

Some cybersleuths traced the server to a marketing firm, but Mr. Simpson told Mr. Ohr, “There was communication and it wasn’t spam.”

The Sussmann and Simpson meetings showed the unusual access Clinton operatives enjoyed. They were selling the Alfa charge to the FBI’s top lawyer and to the Justice Department’s No. 4 official.

‘It is not normal’

A scorecard of some of the contacts.

• Mr. Baker talked with Mr. Sussmann on several occasions and shipped his material — a quarter-inch-thick document and a computer thumb drive — to the counterintelligence wing, then led by Bill Priestap and Peter Strzok. Mr. Strzok is noted for his dislike of Mr. Trump and pledged to “stop” him.

Mr. Baker also said he received dossier material from Mother Jones reporter David Corn, whom he had known for years. Mr. Baker’s attorney said his client is under criminal suspicion in a press leak investigation.

• Mr. Ohr communicated repeatedly with Mr. Steele and Mr. Simpson to hear their Russian collusion charges. He conveyed them to FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe; his counsel, Lisa Page; and Mr. Strzok. Mr. Ohr’s wife worked for Mr. Simpson at Fusion.

At one point, Mr. Ohr handed the FBI two thumb drives containing his wife’s anti-Trump suspicions on business ties with Russia and dossier data. Mr. Ohr had his own FBI handler, Joe Pientka, who recorded at least a dozen interviews with Mr. Ohr after the election into 2017, based on Mr. Steele’s continuous flow of anti-Trump charges.

• Mr. Steele provided his unproven theories to the FBI through Mr. Ohr and received material from a State Department official. After the election, Mr. Steele went a new route: recruiting a Republican, Sen. John McCain, to spread his dossier.

In December, McCain handed the dossier to Mr. Comey, whose team already possessed most of its memos. David Kramer, a McCain associate, proceeded to spread dossier charges among at least eight news outlets, including CNN and BuzzFeed, which published it.

• Jonathan M. Winer, an Obama State Department official, worked with Clinton loyalists Sidney Blumenthal and Cody Shearer, who wrote their own anti-Trump dossier. Pre-election, Mr. Winer provided their paper to Mr. Steele, who was working with the FBI.

Mr. Baker conceded that highly unusual methods were playing out in 2016 and 2017. For example, Mr. Ohr was not involved in the Russia investigation officially, yet he was the messenger for information from Fusion GPS operatives to the FBI.

Rep. Mark Meadows, North Carolina Republican, asked: “So you are using DOJ officials without the knowledge of the hierarchy at DOJ? That seems strange. Why would you do that? Is that the normal way that you would conduct an investigation?”

Mr. Baker: “No, it is not normal.”

Mr. Meadows also asked whether Mr. Baker knew the FBI had violated its protocol. The bureau fired Mr. Steele for breaking the rules of a confidential source by leaking to Mr. Corn at Mother Jones. Yet the FBI still sought his information for more than a year.

“It wouldn’t surprise me,” Mr. Baker answered.

Evidence for wiretaps

Mr. Baker also spoke of a working relationship with The New York Times. Mr. Sussmann had provided The Times with the Alfa Bank cyberdetective work. Mr. Baker said the counterintelligence division wanted the newspaper to put a hold on a story.

“So they give it to The New York Times, they give it to you, and does your bias alarm go off anywhere?” Mr. Meadows asked.

Mr. Baker: “I was concerned about the nature of this material from the first instance.”

In his House testimony, Mr. Ohr said he warned the FBI that the Fusion GPS data flow came from Clinton loyalists.

“So when I provided it to the FBI, I tried to be clear that this is source information,” Mr. Ohr testified. “I don’t know how reliable it is. You’re going to have to check it out and be aware. These guys were hired by somebody relating to — who’s related to the Clinton campaign, and be aware — you know, they were somehow working associated with the Clinton campaign.”

The FBI used the Steele dossier as the major piece of evidence to persuade judges to approve a year’s worth of wiretaps on Trump associate Carter Page. Mr. Page was never charged by the special counsel and said the Steele document was full of lies.

Another House witness last year was George Papadopoulos, the Trump campaign volunteer who unwittingly sparked the July 31 investigation.

His complex story is full of mysterious characters, intrigue and speculation. As a Trump volunteer stationed at a think tank in London, he met Maltese professor Joseph Mifsud. In an encounter on April 26, 2016, Mr. Mifsud told him he heard that Moscow owned thousands of Hillary Clinton emails.

This conversation eventually found its way to the FBI’s Mr. Strzok, who kicked off the investigation.

Mr. Mifsud has visited Moscow frequently but appears to be an unlikely Russian agent. He taught Western intelligence operatives at a college in Rome, socialized with British foreign affairs people and was a welcomed guest in Washington in 2014.

Papadopoulos suspects Mr. Mifsud was a Western intelligence asset, as was Stefan Halper, a U.S. academic who befriended Trump associates while working as an FBI informant.

Papadopoulos was never accused of acting on the email tip. He pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about whether he was a Trump campaign official when he met Mr. Mifsud.

After hearing Papadopoulos’ story, Rep. John Ratcliffe, Texas Republican, wondered aloud: “Based on what you’ve told us, I’m trying to figure out why one of what has become the highest-profile investigations in U.S. history alleging collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russian government centered around you, a 28-year-old campaign adviser on the job for about a month who, to this day, has never been to Russia, and, to this day, has never knowingly met a member of the Russian government.”
 
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aaric

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LMAO this conspiracy bs is stupid af and the source is stupid af
 
thebigt

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LMAO this conspiracy bs is stupid af and the source is stupid af
absolutely...no one would ever think Hillary Clinton was capable of something this 'crooked', right?
 
nostrum420

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Blonde lady bad
 
rob112

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Be careful. You might get suicided
 
thebigt

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gennifer flowers...bill told me that 'Hillary has eaten more pussy than have'.
 
Beau

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I just read somewhere that this entire thing started as part of the annual Gerard B. Finneran celebration, although I am not sure how they are allegedly linked.
 
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nostrum420

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I just read this entire thing started as part of the annual Gerard B. Finneran celebration, although I am not sure how they are allegedly linked.
PHF may be dead but Finneran lives on.
 
aaric

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The Russian collusion hoax was a conspiracy theory. The dnc and Hillary colluding with a foreign spy to get an illegal spying campaign setup actually has evidence.
Lmao stfu So deluded u cant tell facts from fiction, truth from lies, and literal reality from ur own schizophrenic paranoia 🤣

All ur doing is giving this forum and the good ppl in it a bad name
 

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This thread belongs over at getbig.com. The home of right wing retardation.
 
thebigt

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This thread belongs over at getbig.com. The home of right wing retardation.
here, here...medical care and college tuition free to everyone and let 16 year olds vote!!!o_O
 
Beau

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Hey, wait a minute - all this additional entitlement stuff could be misconstrued as buying votes. That certainly can't be the motivation.
 
thebigt

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Hey, wait a minute - all this additional entitlement stuff could be misconstrued as buying votes. That certainly can't be the motivation.
democrats are too honest to do something as deceptive as that...just ask Bernie.
 
aaric

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Hey, wait a minute - all this additional entitlement stuff could be misconstrued as buying votes. That certainly can't be the motivation.
Someone doesn’t get how politics works it seems. At least with one party (Dems), they while they ask for ur vote, u know u’re gonna get some good for u and for most other ppl. The other party fearmongers for ur vote and then once in power, fucks u over, picks ur pockets, and calls their actions “patriotism”.
 
Beau

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Someone doesn’t get how politics works it seems. At least with one party (Dems), they while they ask for ur vote, u know u’re gonna get some good for u and for most other ppl. The other party fearmongers for ur vote and then once in power, fucks u over, picks ur pockets, and calls their actions “patriotism”.
My comment was sarcasm.
 
Beau

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Is Trump buying votes with Farm subsidies? Is he buying support from corporations by lowering their taxes?
Probably.

At least it seems to be helping the economy (and my investment portfolio).

But he needs to tell the FDA to keep their mitts off of our supplements - the dirty, big pharma loving, bastards.

The end.
 
Beau

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People say things that ridiculous and are serious so often these days, it can be hard to tell sometimes.
Remember - I am the one who periodically mentions Finneran.

If nothing else does, that should prove that I am rarely serious on forums - but when I am I try to make sure it is well intended and obvious.

Now, where is that darned drink cart ....
 
nostrum420

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Probably.

At least it seems to be helping the economy (and my investment portfolio).

But he needs to tell the FDA to keep their mitts off of our supplements - the dirty, big pharma loving, bastards.

The end.
Unfortunately the majority of the country doesn't have money to invest. He's only helping the upper class bubble economy.
 
rob112

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here, here...medical care and college tuition free to everyone and let 16 year olds vote!!!o_O
I wish people would critically think about the idea of any service be given away for free. Unless doctors start doing charity or start being forced to work for free their service will never actually be free.

A discussion about making it more affordable with an actual plan would be worthwhile.
 
thebigt

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I wish people would critically think about the idea of any service be given away for free. Unless doctors start doing charity or start being forced to work for free their service will never actually be free.

A discussion about making it more affordable with an actual plan would be worthwhile.
I laugh out loud when people say medicare is free...talk to someone on medicare and ask them how FREE it is.
 
Beau

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Unfortunately the majority of the country doesn't have money to invest. He's only helping the upper class bubble economy.
OK - just something I wanted to share - a rare glimpse at something I don't intend as stupidity.

I started investing a long, long time ago, when I was broke. I was not then, and am not now - part of the upper class bubble.

It was instilled in me by my father that you always do whatever you have to in order to pay yourself first - so I have done so by doing without a lot of things. I don't spend money on things like Starbucks and other non-essentials. I don't spend money on depreciating assets. I would never lease a car. If I can't pay for it, I don't need it.

I budget investments each month, and even did so when I was going through my divorce and was so poor I didn't have enough money to pay attention (and it seemed like my dreams were in black and white). I have instilled the same in my sons. I realize that it is my responsibility, and only mine, to make sure I have enough to retire. I do not count on social security being in existence.

I can't accept that people cannot invest. It is a matter of priorities and decisions. I paid for my undergraduate degree and my MBA by saving my butt off and investing. How? By doing without a lot of stuff that I would have preferred to have. And later, when I had disposable income, I spent it on my kids - because they, not me, were the priority.

You can open a brokerage account at Schwab for $100. You can invest in Schwab mutual finds in increments of $1. I think you can open a Betterment portfolio - for next to nothing - maybe $25. You can add increments of $1. Many people blow $100 each month partying, drinking and doing stupid crap. I chose/choose not to - and it wasn't an accident - it was by design. By this point I can afford it, I just don't want to. If I want a glass of wine, I can buy it and have it at home. I don't a Starbucks Frappa-Monkeyass. I have a coffee pot.

Saving allowed me to bring an underprivileged 18 year old man (a friend of my oldest son who had been in Foster care almost his entire life) into my house - without charging him a dime. For 5 years. I invested in him, not a bunch of crap, and I have another son as a result of that decision. Most of my friends thought I was an idiot - and said they would never do something like that. I disagree - I may be an idiot - but not because I live very intentionally and helped a good kid. I could not have done that if I would have installed a bitchin' home theater room - and I wanted one (and I still do)

I don't say this for self-aggrandizement - I say it to give an example of what you can do by living intentionally and making your money work for you - even if it is just a little at a time.

My point - most (but not all) of life is what you make it, and good results usually (but not always) result from being very intentional and disciplined. I am not a victim of anyone or anything, and I never have been - even when I lost half of my assets to a serial adulteress. My beloved Dad told me that losers always have excuses, but winners don't need them. He was right. And - we were not well off financially - there was no silver spoon feeding me.

People can do a lot more than they say they can. Make good decisions, postpone buying things that you want (but which will depreciate), don't have kids before you can afford them - these are all decisions.

I am not sure everyone will accept this is the truth, but I see things that way.

Now, lets go talk about some guy who took a crap on an airplane drink cart.
 
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nostrum420

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actually a slight majority own stocks 52%.
A big portion of that are folks who only have tiny investment portfolio. So, I maintain the only people really benefiting much from the market going up are people already towards the top.
 
nostrum420

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OK - just something I wanted to share - a rare glimpse at something I don't intend as stupidity.

I started investing a long,long time ago, when I was broke. It was instilled in me by my father that you always do whatever you have to in order to pay yourself first - so I have done so by doing without a lot of things. I don't spend money on things like Starbucks and other non-essentials. I don't spend money on depreciating assets. I would never lease a car. If I can't pay for it, I don't need it.

I budget investments each month, and even did so when I was going through my divorce and was so poor I didn't have enough money to pay attention (and it seemed like my dreams were in black and white). I have instilled the same in my sons. I realize that it is my responsibility, and only mine, to make sure I have enough to retire. I do not count on social security being in existence.

I can't accept that people cannot invest. It is a matter of priorities and decisions. I paid for my undergraduate degree and my MBA. By doing without a lot of stuff that I would have preferred to have. And when I had disposable income, I spent it on my kids - because they, not me, were the priority.

You can open a brokerage account at Schwab for $100. You can invest in Schwab mutual finds in increments of $1. Many people blow $100 each month partying, drinking and doing stupid crap. I chose not to - it wasn't an accident - it was by design.

My point - most (but not all) of life is what you make it, and good results usually (but not always) result from being very intentional and disciplined. I am not a victim of anyone or anything, and I never have been - even when I lost half of my assets to a serial adulteress. My beloved dad told me that losers always have excuses, but winners don;t need them. And - we were not well off financially - there was no silver spoon feeding me.

My point - people can do a lot more than they say they can. Make good decisions, postpone buying things that you want (but which will depreciate), don't have kids before you can afford them - these are all decisions.

I am not sure everyone will accept this is the truth, but I see things that way.

Now, lets go talk about some guy who took a crap on an airplane drink cart.
This is basically "poor people deserve to be poor because they're dumb and irresponsible." I'm glad you were able to do well for yourself but there are many who will never have even $100 they can afford to invest.
 
rob112

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This is basically "poor people deserve to be poor because they're dumb and irresponsible." I'm glad you were able to do well for yourself but there are many who will never have even $100 they can afford to invest.
I would be willing to bet there are millions of Americans that pay high interest credit cards for things that are not necessity. Think of all the stores in middle income areas that offer credit cards.

There are absolutely people given a much tougher shot to make it as well.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle as always.
 
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Beau

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This is basically "poor people deserve to be poor because they're dumb and irresponsible." I'm glad you were able to do well for yourself but there are many who will never have even $100 they can afford to invest.
No, it is an example of restating things to put words in my mouth. Some people have made really crappy decisions, and really crappy results may have followed. Some people did all the "right things" and got a load of crap in return. Some people were stupid and irresponsible - and made a butt load of money. I don't think "poor" people are dumb any more than I think "rich" people are smart. Poor people aren't necessarily irresponsible, and neither are rich people - although I do know some rich people who are are dumber than a fence post and really irresponsible. I try to avoid stereotypes - they are convenient only if you want to make someone look stupid. Not my gig. I have to think, somehow someway, people can muster up $20 to start a Betterment account. If I am wrong, then so be it.
 
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thebigt

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No, it is an example of restating things to put words in my mouth. Some people have made really crappy decisions, and really crappy results may have followed. Some people did all the "right things" and got a load of crap in return. Some people were stupid and irresponsible - and made a butt load of money. I don't think "poor" people are dumb any more than I think "rich" people are smart. Poor people aren't necessarily irresponsible, and neither are rich people - although I do know some rich people who are are dumber than a fence post and really irresponsible. I try to avoid stereotypes - they are convenient only if you want to make someone stupid. Not my gig. I have to think, somehow someway, people can muster up $20 to start a Betterment account. If I am wrong, then so be it.
dude, this is a side of you I haven't seen before...I like it!!!
 
nostrum420

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No, it is an example of restating things to put words in my mouth. Some people have made really crappy decisions, and really crappy results may have followed. Some people did all the "right things" and got a load of crap in return. Some people were stupid and irresponsible - and made a butt load of money. I don't think "poor" people are dumb any more than I think "rich" people are smart. Poor people aren't necessarily irresponsible, and neither are rich people - although I do know some rich people who are are dumber than a fence post and really irresponsible. I try to avoid stereotypes - they are convenient only if you want to make someone stupid. Not my gig. I have to think, somehow someway, people can muster up $20 to start a Betterment account. If I am wrong, then so be it.
I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth so much as sum up what I garnered from your personal example. I've heard similar stories before and I commend everyone who's been able to work their way out of a bad situation, myself included. I've also volunteered to work with people who will likely never even have $20 extra dollars. If they do scrounge it up, it's got to go to bills, groceries, the gas tank, etc.

We digress, but I maintain that the stock market as an economic indicator is typically only an indication that the rich are getting richer.
 
thebigt

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I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth so much as sum up what I garnered from your personal example. I've heard similar stories before and I commend everyone who's been able to work their way out of a bad situation, myself included. I've also volunteered to work with people who will likely never even have $20 extra dollars. If they do scrounge it up, it's got to go to bills, groceries, the gas tank, etc.

We digress, but I maintain that the stock market as an economic indicator is typically only an indication that the rich are getting richer.
and government is the solution...Bernie sanders playing the role of robin hood.

give me your money so I can buy ANOTHER house, lol.

you ever notice that almost all of these socialist politicians are rich?
 
nostrum420

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and government is the solution...Bernie sanders playing the role of robin hood.

give me your money so I can buy ANOTHER house, lol.

you ever notice that almost all of these socialist politicians are rich?
I didn't say any of that; I'm just saying that people at the bottom need a hand and the stock market going up does nothing for them. If there's some private enterprise helping them, I'd absolutely support that but in general solutions to poverty seem to be a market failure.
 
thebigt

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I didn't say any of that; I'm just saying that people at the bottom need a hand and the stock market going up does nothing for them. If there's some private enterprise helping them, I'd absolutely support that but in general solutions to poverty seem to be a market failure.
just like 2008 eh, not only was I laid off from international paper but my retirement fund [401k] took a huge hit. I took a huge risk and a huge loss when I cashed in remaining 401k to start my business, also took a 2nd mortgage on my home.

a lot of good, hard working people get hurt when market fails---the rich can ride it out.
 
nostrum420

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just like 2008 eh, not only was I laid off from international paper but my retirement fund [401k] took a huge hit. I took a huge risk and a huge loss when I cashed in remaining 401k to start my business, also took a 2nd mortgage on my home.

a lot of good, hard working people get hurt when market fails---the rich can ride it out.
Agreed; unless you can afford to leave a decent amount in the market for a long time, it's not much help.
 
rob112

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just like 2008 eh, not only was I laid off from international paper but my retirement fund [401k] took a huge hit. I took a huge risk and a huge loss when I cashed in remaining 401k to start my business, also took a 2nd mortgage on my home.

a lot of good, hard working people get hurt when market fails---the rich can ride it out.
I got laid off during that time. I was a metal fabricator. It took hard work but I am actually doing very good now. I agree 100% with you.

Also stocks going up does mean people at the top get more, but it is because people below them have the money to spend. Apple stocks are not **** if it wasn’t for the fact that so many people(even poverty) could get their hands on them. Amazon is not great because rich people like them. They are where they are due to the affordability to the masses.

Stock market is one indicator and their is value to it.

Wanting to help the disenfranchised is noble. Saying person A is poor because person B is rich is not. It creates frustration, envy, hopelessness, and it creates a group of people to actively hate; it does not make them less poor.
 
nostrum420

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I got laid off during that time. I was a metal fabricator. It took hard work but I am actually doing very good now. I agree 100% with you.

Also stocks going up does mean people at the top get more, but it is because people below them have the money to spend. Apple stocks are not **** if it wasn’t for the fact that so many people(even poverty) could get their hands on them. Amazon is not great because rich people like them. They are where they are due to the affordability to the masses.

Stock market is one indicator and their is value to it.

Wanting to help the disenfranchised is noble. Saying person A is poor because person B is rich is not. It creates frustration, envy, hopelessness, and it creates a group of people to actively hate; it does not make them less poor.
Traditionally I'd agree about it meaning people having the money but if you look at how much consumer debt goes up with the stock market going up in recent years combined with wages being stagnant. It's clear to me that the market is no longer an indication of a thriving middle and lower class and now it's a matter of people putting themselves further and further into debt in order to try to maintain the quality of life they've become used to.

I'm not saying person A is poor because person B is rich but I am saying there systems that keep person A poor while person B keeps getting richer. Not because of smoke filled rooms of mustache twisting, cackling fiends but because of callousness toward the lower classes.
 
rob112

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Traditionally I'd agree about it meaning people having the money but if you look at how much consumer debt goes up with the stock market going up in recent years combined with wages being stagnant. It's clear to me that the market is no longer an indication of a thriving middle and lower class and now it's a matter of people putting themselves further and further into debt in order to try to maintain the quality of life they've become used to.

I'm not saying person A is poor because person B is rich but I am saying there systems that keep person A poor while person B keeps getting richer. Not because of smoke filled rooms of mustache twisting, cackling fiends but because of callousness toward the lower classes.
The welfare system being a big one. I’m not saying I want to disband it or anything, but I have had people that used to work under me turn down jobs at around 15 dollars an hour(I know not a ton but what is being fought for, and room to go up) because it might take away their state health care. That’s just an example of a person purposely not taking the next step because the way the system is set up makes it better if they don’t.

Fixing health care is part of that, but so is fixing our system to where it becomes more beneficial to stay in a lower class than take the proper steps to move up. I don’t blame said person either. It’s a definite flaw in our system.
 
Beau

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It might be interesting to see why consumer debt has increased. To the extent the increase in consumer debt is driven by medical emergencies, while that is unfortunate, it also seems understandable - if people can't pull from a nest egg.

But according to the Fed, in March 2019 U.S. consumer debt rose an additional 3.1% to $4.052 trillion (surpassing the increase in February 2019). Of this $4.052 trillion, $2.995 trillion was non-revolving debt (meaning debt that is not intended to be paid off each month), and it rose 5.0%. Most non-revolving debt is education and auto loans. The Fed report shows that in March 2019, school debt totaled $1.598 trillion and auto loans were $1.161 trillion. Credit card debt totaled $1.057 trillion, decreasing 2.5% (which makes sense, since CC debt is intended to be paid off each month). Credit card debt is 26% of total consumer debt.

So, if this is accurate, consumer debt is largely (but not entirely) controllable. It seems likely that people do not need auto loans (or could finance a used car, rather than a new one) or have the option of attending a Community College for the first two years of post High School education - and then transfer to a University. CC debt - again - it depends. While my heart goes out to those who run into a medical situation they have to finance - I have to wonder how much CC debt falls into that bucket vs. how much CC debt simply results from narcissistic consumerism - where people attempt to buy happiness. While you can never buy happiness, to me it seems to be a bigger problem when you are buying an illusion - and can't afford to pay for the illusion in cash. Again - I contend that there is a big difference between necessity and desire. Many things people go into debt for are not necessities. I don't have data to back that up, but I believe that is categorically accurate enough to say with high confidence. And, yes - of course there are exceptions.

Perhaps part of this is a failure of parents to train kids on personal fiance. For example, I have told my sons to use CCs only for cash flow, and to pay off card balance (not the billed amount) at the end of every month. To the best of my knowledge, none of us has paid CC interest for several years. When my son had to buy a car after an accident, he "saved" a lot of money by buying used, not new.

There are ways to make money work. But I also understand that you cannot "use" your money - if you do not have it to begin with. And increasing consumer debt does increase the market, as those monies are used to purchase goods and services.
 
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thebigt

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how smart is it to accrue debt for a 4 year college just to earn $30,000- $40,000 a year. and yet politicians are pushing every kid out of high school to feel they need college...science, technology, engineering degrees are valuable, but some of the courses kids are paying top dollar for will never pay dividend....even worse only 52.9% of kids attending college will graduate.

mechanics, plumbers, electricians, welders are in high demand....money much better spent learning a skill at a trade school for many.
 
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how smart is it to accrue debt for a 4 year college just to earn $30,000- $40,000 a year. and yet politicians are pushing every kid out of high school to feel they need college...science, technology, engineering degrees are valuable, but some of the courses kids are paying top dollar for will never pay dividend....even worse only 52.9% of kids attending college will graduate.

mechanics, plumbers, electricians, welders are in high demand....money much better spent learning a skill at a trade school for many.
And that dismal 52.9% rate is with people directly paying for tuition, books and boarding; suggesting (to me, at least) that there is a great(er) incentive to graduate since the student (or the student's relative) is paying for it. Imagine what the graduation rate might be if going to a University was "free" (no one pays directly, because we all pay for it through taxes). Again, to me, "at no direct cost" to the student creates less incentive to finish since there is little skin in the game. I may be wrong, but I believe people take things more seriously when they are paying the price.
 
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A big portion of that are folks who only have tiny investment portfolio. So, I maintain the only people really benefiting much from the market going up are people already towards the top.
in 2008 the market crashed, unemployment skyrocketed-breaking 6.2 in august 2008 finally reaching 10.2 in October 2019, sending the economy into a recession. today unemployment rate is 3.6%.

in 2009 inflation reached 2.7% today it is 1.23%.


in 2008 with so many people laid off or job terminated those people lost heath insurance through their work, this caused private health insurance rates to skyrocket-emergency rooms were over capacity due to people having no where else to go.


just a few examples of how a bad stock market HELPS the poor-eh?
 
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And that dismal 52.9% rate is with people directly paying for tuition, books and boarding; suggesting (to me, at least) that there is a great(er) incentive to graduate since the student (or the student's relative) is paying for it. Imagine what the graduation rate might be if going to a University was "free" (no one pays directly, because we all pay for it through taxes). Again, to me, "at no direct cost" to the student creates less incentive to finish since there is little skin in the game. I may be wrong, but I believe people take things more seriously when they are paying the price.
Amen, brother!!!
 
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And that dismal 52.9% rate is with people directly paying for tuition, books and boarding; suggesting (to me, at least) that there is a great(er) incentive to graduate since the student (or the student's relative) is paying for it. Imagine what the graduation rate might be if going to a University was "free" (no one pays directly, because we all pay for it through taxes). Again, to me, "at no direct cost" to the student creates less incentive to finish since there is little skin in the game. I may be wrong, but I believe people take things more seriously when they are paying the price.
it's kind of ironic...back in the 60's rich parents sent kids to college to get a deferment from going to nam...soon poor parents will be sending kids to college to get them out of their basements, lol.
 

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