HMB doesn't work and the science is nonsense - proof inside

[VaughnTrue]

View attachment DOC-20170317-WA0001.pdf

why is ANYONE using this stuff?

 

[TheMrMuscle]

Thanks for posting that, ive been trying to find it after seeing Mennos post on it.

I personally feel a difference in recovery when using HMB-Fa and not, but im looking forward to reading this.

 

[VaughnTrue]

Thanks for posting that, ive been trying to find it after seeing Mennos post on it.

I personally feel a difference in recovery when using HMB-Fa and not, but im looking forward to reading this.

ok...it may do SOMETHING, but not a fraction of what is claimed.

Know what actually does work and has thousands of repeatable studies behind it? Leucine.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

View attachment 146369

why is ANYONE using this stuff?

For a second, I thought you were gonna 'dis HMB-Ca! (Note, that *it* gets some credit in the body of the letter).

Nice post Vaughn - those are the heaviest hitters in the research industry.

I've long since decided Wilson's work is questionable to say the least.

 

[Pec.Major]

Hmb is legit. The calcium salt. But the magic is in the training. It really shines in overreaching.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Hmb is legit. The calcium salt. But the magic is in the training. It really shines in overreaching.

Ca is, FA is not - people need to be really clear when typing the letters HMB, IMO... LOL

 

[VaughnTrue]

Ca is, FA is not - people need to be really clear when typing the letters HMB, IMO... LOL

do the studies behind HMB-Ca look as comical as the FA ones? I honestly haven't read up on them in some time

 

[The_Old_Guy]

do the studies behind HMB-Ca look as comical as the FA ones? I honestly haven't read up on them in some time

Brosef, just type: HMB Suppversity into Google, and you'll get 3, 4, 5 non-industry related studies showing it's worth the ~$50 per year to use it

 

[jameschoi]

ok...it may do SOMETHING, but not a fraction of what is claimed.

Know what actually does work and has thousands of repeatable studies behind it? Leucine.

I have read of people megadosing leucine, how much do you take before your workout and after.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I have read of people megadosing leucine, how much do you take before your workout and after.

Mega dosing Leucine is a waste. You need about 3g (5g max if you want to err) per protein feeding. There should be about a 3-5 hour delay before your next protein feeding. More doesn't help. Also, if you are going to use supplemental Leucine, make sure you subtract the Leucine that is already in your Casein/Whey/Beef/Egg/Chicken/Fish, etc...

 

[Pec.Major]

Ca is, FA is not - people need to be really clear when typing the letters HMB, IMO... LOL

My bad, i was unclear. Should have wrote HMB-Ca instead of "the calcium salt" seperated.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

My bad, i was unclear. Should have wrote HMB-Ca instead of "the calcium salt" seperated.

Nah, I got you, just a general post using your quote - sorry.

 

[jameschoi]

Mega dosing Leucine is a waste. You need about 3g (5g max if you want to err) per protein feeding. There should be about a 3-5 hour delay before your next protein feeding. More doesn't help. Also, if you are going to use supplemental Leucine, make sure you subtract the Leucine that is already in your Casein/Whey/Beef/Egg/Chicken/Fish, etc...

What about ecdysteroids, do they work at all.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

What about ecdysteroids, do they work at all.

Define "work"? I bought what could be considered the highest quality Rhaponticum product - consumed it with Tart Cherry Juice (itself proven to aid recovery), and noticed a small to medium improvement in recovery from workouts I had been doing for months. When I switched to entirely new exercises, it did absolutely nothing - DOMS out the azz for a few workouts. Didn't re-purchase.

 

[cheftepesh1]

Always interested in reading solid information

 

[banjobounce]

In before "feels like deca."

 

[VaughnTrue]

In before "feels like deca."

LOL well played

 

[scoooter]

ok...it may do SOMETHING, but not a fraction of what is claimed.

Know what actually does work and has thousands of repeatable studies behind it? Leucine.

Interested to know which group you think HICA would reside ?

Something: Leucine / HMB-Ca
or
Nothing: HMB

 

[pulsefit]

surprising someone messed misrepresented numbers to further their pocket. never happens in the supplement industry ever....

 

[compan]

surprising someone messed misrepresented numbers to further their pocket. never happens in the supplement industry ever....

Haha nope, never. Not in this industry!

 

[Jiigzz]

Wilsons research is ALWAYS overwhelmingly positive. Very skeptical that he doesn't fabricate claims

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Brosef, just type: HMB Suppversity into Google, and you'll get 3, 4, 5 non-industry related studies showing it's worth the ~$50 per year to use it

This. There is research on it that doesn't raise the same concerns as the HMB-FA studies, and at $50/year (under $5/month, or $0.14/day), it's a cheap enough addition.

There's also a recent rat study that found that "HMB forestalled the effects of aging on the dendritic tree of this population of neurons."

In both healthy aging humans and rat models, there are cognitive deficits associated with age-related dendritic shrinkage within the prefrontal cortex...

As expected, there were fewer spines and a retraction of dendritic material in the apical and basilar trees in old age controls of both sexes compared with their middle-aged counterparts. However, these losses did not occur in the HMB-treated rats in either dendrites or the total number of dendritic spines.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26973106/?i=8&from=beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate

The study used 450mg/kg, which isn't an unachievable dose when converted (5.4g for a 75kg person).

Now, it's not something that seems like it would improve cognition in healthy young adults, but it is rather interesting, and makes HMB an even more promising supplement as we age, and even as a generally healthy supplement to help us essentially stay younger loner.

 

[macwad]

Well, I've read the whole PDF, but I missed the part where they proved it doesn't work.

The letter only asks for clarification and, yes, the author do doubt the amount of gains, but they don't (and can't) say it doesn't work and have conducted no similar experiment on the ingredient.
A Clarification Letter doesn't prove anything, and doesn't intend to.

 

[bosskardo]

What about ecdysteroids, do they work at all.

At doses you can't afford, there should be a benefit. But a lot more cheaper and better options available.

 

[polarcat]

HMB/leucine is such a scam! If you search for it on pubmed/ncbi, there's zero studies that say it's effective. Same at the examine website. I am going to visit that supversity link someone mentioned but yeah so far it's definitely a waste. Money is better spent on food.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

HMB/leucine is such a scam! If you search for it on pubmed/ncbi, there's zero studies that say it's effective. Same at the examine website. I am going to visit that supversity link someone mentioned but yeah so far it's definitely a waste. Money is better spent on food.

Wait, who is saying that leucine is a scam? There are plenty of studies showing the benefits of leucine. Of course, there's no point in taking leucine with a meal already high in protein and leucine, but it does have benefits under certain conditions. Also, as The_Old_Guy mentioned, HMB-CA has some studies that don't bring up the same concerns as the HMB-FA studies.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Here's some studies on CaHMB:

In summary, CR and HMB can increase LBM and strength, and the effects are additive

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11448573

HMB supplementation was associated
with greater increases in muscle mass, muscle strength and
anaerobic properties with no effect on aerobic capacity
suggesting some advantage for its use in elite adolescent
volleyball players during the initial phases of the training
season. These effects were not accompanied by hormonal
and inflammatory mediator changes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327797

In previously trained men,
supplementation of HMB in conjunction with resistance training
provides a substantial benefit to lower-body strength, but it has
negligible effects on body composition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19387396

. These data suggested that 27 HMB in combination with 12 weeks of RT decreased AFM in elderly men

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272624772_b-hydroxy-b-methylbutyrate_HMB_Supplementation_and_Resistance_Exercise_Significantly_Reduce_Abdominal_Adiposity_in_Healthy_Elderly_Men

The results indicate that supplying HMB promotes advantageous changes in
body composition and stimulates an increase in aerobic capacity, while seeming not to
significantly affect the levels of the analyzed blood markers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26849784

In conclusion, a nutritional supplement containing 1.5 g of calcium HMB for 8 weeks in healthy elderly women had no significant effects on SPPB, but did significantly improve several muscle strength and physical performance parameters.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4631374/

In conclusion, the objective data collected across nine experiments indicate that HMB can be taken safely as an ergogenic aid for exercise and that objective measures of health and perception of well-being are generally enhanced.

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/8/1937.long

 

[macwad]

HMB/leucine is such a scam! If you search for it on pubmed/ncbi, there's zero studies that say it's effective. Same at the examine website. I am going to visit that supversity link someone mentioned but yeah so far it's definitely a waste. Money is better spent on food.

Maybe you should search for it yourself. Or read the links just posted above

 

[polarcat]

Maybe you should search for it yourself. Or read the links just posted above

Ok so it "works" for volleyball players and old ladies and provides "trivial" strength gains but has no effect on body composition. I mean it works but not to an extent that's worth it. Especially for healthy males that have been resistance training and living the bodybuilding lifestyle for a while it's not going to do anything. Waste of money. Also wayyyyy too many uncontrollable factors that could've contributed to the tiny results those studies showed.

 

[B5150]

Mega dosing Leucine is a waste. You need about 3g (5g max if you want to err) per protein feeding. There should be about a 3-5 hour delay before your next protein feeding. More doesn't help. Also, if you are going to use supplemental Leucine, make sure you subtract the Leucine that is already in your Casein/Whey/Beef/Egg/Chicken/Fish, etc...

Not sure if you are being sarcastic...
So after I subtract those food products (which I cannot actually calculate the exact anount of lucine contained) and if I have a number "zero" I must not need any supplemental then?

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic...
So after I subtract those food products (which I cannot actually calculate the exact anount of lucine contained) and if I have a number "zero" I must not need any supplemental then?

Huh? Very loosely a scoop of Whey has like 2g, and Casein has 1.5g. 8oz of Milk has 1g etc... If one were going to add Leucine it would be a waste to add 5g to 2 scoops of Whey in Milk. Thats what I was trying to relay.As faras I can recall, both Norton and Phillips say no more than 5g per 'feeding' is needed (and thats for really big dudes).

 

[Jiigzz]

Huh? Very loosely a scoop of Whey has like 2g, and Casein has 1.5g. 8oz of Milk has 1g etc... If one were going to add Leucine it would be a waste to add 5g to 2 scoops of Whey in Milk. Thats what I was trying to relay.As faras I can recall, both Norton and Phillips say no more than 5g per 'feeding' is needed (and thats for really big dudes).

Yep. 5g is plenty to add to meals low in leucine. Less even if some is present

 

[Jiigzz]

Ok so it "works" for volleyball players and old ladies and provides "trivial" strength gains but has no effect on body composition. I mean it works but not to an extent that's worth it. Especially for healthy males that have been resistance training and living the bodybuilding lifestyle for a while it's not going to do anything. Waste of money. Also wayyyyy too many uncontrollable factors that could've contributed to the tiny results those studies showed.

It's not really for that. Leucine is an mTOR stimulator, meaning that at 5g it maximally activates the cascade responsible for building muscle. It wont add mass without substrate though.

Think of leucine as a project manager, it gets the ball rolling, but wont actually do the work in building the house. Other people/ substrates are there for that

 

[B5150]

Huh? Very loosely a scoop of Whey has like 2g, and Casein has 1.5g. 8oz of Milk has 1g etc... If one were going to add Leucine it would be a waste to add 5g to 2 scoops of Whey in Milk. Thats what I was trying to relay.As faras I can recall, both Norton and Phillips say no more than 5g per 'feeding' is needed (and thats for really big dudes).

i understand. I'm good on my Leucine.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Ok so it "works" for volleyball players and old ladies and provides "trivial" strength gains but has no effect on body composition. I mean it works but not to an extent that's worth it. Especially for healthy males that have been resistance training and living the bodybuilding lifestyle for a while it's not going to do anything. Waste of money. Also wayyyyy too many uncontrollable factors that could've contributed to the tiny results those studies showed.

You can get it for less than $5/month, it has studies showing some benefits in trained individuals, and it has research suggesting it can also be a longevity-supporting type supplement, as animal research suggests cognitive-protecting effects, and human studies show physical benefits for the elderly. For the price, I think it's worth it, but we're all entitled to our opinions. I wouldn't say it's "useless" by any means though.

 

[B5150]

Far too many recreational and hobbiest trainers sweating the monutia that might be beneficial in elite highly trained and conditioned full time professional or collegiate athletes. I'll spend my money enjoying a FuFu coffee once a month and get equitable results.

 

[polarcat]

Far too many recreational and hobbiest trainers sweating the monutia that might be beneficial in elite highly trained and conditioned full time professional or collegiate athletes. I'll spend my money enjoying a FuFu coffee once a month and get equitable results.

Recent studies PROVE that fufu coffee is 43% more anabolic than hmb, look it up on pubmed, straight facts.

 

[Justlooking5]

ok...it may do SOMETHING, but not a fraction of what is claimed.

Know what actually does work and has thousands of repeatable studies behind it? Leucine.

BCAAs (I have been really liking the fermented kind) are legit.

 

[jameschoi]

Recent studies PROVE that fufu coffee is 43% more anabolic than hmb, look it up on pubmed, straight facts.

Can you provide the link.

 

[fitfreak_CP]

Honestly I used to with my original diet coach and looking back what a waste of money. If you ok a good diet and training program with some added protein shakes or BCAA your good. If your on gear then it's definitely a waste of money.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

i understand. I'm good on my Leucine.

Yea, when you question a post, I go "oh shjt, what did I screw up?!" You appear every leap yer or so, LOL.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

You can get it for less than $5/month, it has studies showing some benefits in trained individuals, and it has research suggesting it can also be a longevity-supporting type supplement, as animal research suggests cognitive-protecting effects, and human studies show physical benefits for the elderly. For the price, I think it's worth it, but we're all entitled to our opinions. I wouldn't say it's "useless" by any means though.

+1,000,000

The older I get, the more I'm concerned with longevity over performance. I take Creatine for my brain, not my muscles! LOL Since HMB-Ca and Creatine do both, win/win! Phuck Alzheimer's!

 

[B5150]

Yea, when you question a post, I go "oh shjt, what did I screw up?!" You appear every leap yer or so, LOL.

I'm flattered that you notice but I got nothing on you. I read your stuff all the time. There's only a handful of guys and your on the list.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

I'm flattered that you notice but I got nothing on you. I read your stuff all the time. There's only a handful of guys and your on the list.

Damn man, thanks! (Thank you Google! )

 

[210LBS]

Most studies need to be done over and over again to get anything out of them. Anyone remember the creatine study that showed creatine massively increased DHT levels? Like over 50% I think. The first thing I thought was that the creatine used was spiked. But that was it. The study was never followed up again. I think that's a huge find and surprising that it was never followed up. There are too many variables to rely on 1 or 2 studies in a lot of cases.

 

[Studdscruggs]

Never believed in it and for the price of it my god it's a rip off. if it does anything it's very minuscule. Now if it was cheap in bulk like creating or glutamine, I wouldn't mind just throwing it into the mix.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Never believed in it and for the price of it my god it's a rip off. if it does anything it's very minuscule. Now if it was cheap in bulk like creating or glutamine, I wouldn't mind just throwing it into the mix.

CaHMB is cheap in bulk; about $50/year. HMB-FA is very expensive, but Ca has studies on it showing some benefits.

 

[macwad]

Here's some studies on CaHMB:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11448573

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327797

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19387396

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272624772_b-hydroxy-b-methylbutyrate_HMB_Supplementation_and_Resistance_Exercise_Significantly_Reduce_Abdominal_Adiposity_in_Healthy_Elderly_Men

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26849784

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4631374/

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/8/1937.long

One more recent study (2015):

The efficacy of a β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate supplementation on physical capacity, body composition and biochemical markers in elite rowers: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4518594/

The results indicate that HMB intake in endurance training has an advantageous effect on the increase in aerobic capacity and the reduction of fat mass. It may also stimulate an increase in peak anaerobic power

 

[EricMM]

ok...it may do SOMETHING, but not a fraction of what is claimed.

Know what actually does work and has thousands of repeatable studies behind it? Leucine.

Yeah, they make some crazy claims for it!

 

[EricMM]

Most studies need to be done over and over again to get anything out of them. Anyone remember the creatine study that showed creatine massively increased DHT levels? Like over 50% I think. The first thing I thought was that the creatine used was spiked. But that was it. The study was never followed up again. I think that's a huge find and surprising that it was never followed up. There are too many variables to rely on 1 or 2 studies in a lot of cases.

I absolutely believe this. Lots of anecdotal reports of creatine making kids cranky. Seems pretty common and I would believe that it can impact DHT levels in younger men.