Hit a wall and need some advice on supplementation

ddavis1

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Hey guys, I'm new to the forum and could really use some advice. I'm 6'1" and 43 years old and I recently lost a ton of weight (went from 243 down to 185), but no matter what I try, I can't seem to lose the flab (mostly on my lower back and sides). I lost the weight over a period of 7 months and have been stuck at the same place for the last 6 months (plus or minus 5 lbs.). I have tried many combinations of weight training and cardio/HIIT; I'm currently lifting three days per week and doing low-intensity cardio two days. I believe I'm at about a 600 calorie deficit most days (consuming around 1650 per day) and I'm getting between 150 and 200 grams of protein every day. I usually train fasted in the early afternoon. I'm thinking it may be a hormonal imbalance, and want to know what a good starting place would be as far as supplements. Do you think an aromatase inhibitor and test booster would be a good place to start, or maybe a cortisol inhibitor? Also, if I went with something like Exotherm or Latrone, could I use it as a stand-alone product or would it be better to stack with something else for fat burning (and later for lean bulking)? I appreciate your shared insight.
 
LeanEngineer

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Tons of options out there man. You could even go with an ostashred exotherm letrone combo if you really wanted to. or you can run them as a standalone product.
 

ddavis1

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Thanks; I'll have to look Ostashred up (sounds like a fat burner). Do you think it would be worth the expense to try the stack you recommended for a month, or would it be better (results and financially) to run 2 or 3 cycles of one or two of those options? I would prefer to avoid the cost of three sup stacks on an ongoing basis, but am more than willing to try it for a while if there's a good chance it will work for me.
 
AntM1564

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I would go with OxyMax XT + Shift. Makes for a great stack. The F95 is great during a cut. It can help one retain muscle while losing bodyfat. Also, OxyMax XT provides a great boost in mood and overall well being.
 

ddavis1

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Wow, I just looked them up and I'm intrigued. They both have a hefty ingredient list. I never thought about stacking two fat-burners. How long do you recommend running this stack? Are the stimulants in OxyMax very strong? I'm not overly sensitive, but don't want to have a HIIT-induced heart attack. Thanks.
 

ddavis1

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Just ordered OxyMax and Shift... Looking forward to trying this out with some heavy HIIT sessions... Thanks for the tip. Oh, do you think there would be any benefit/drawbacks to taking OTC test boosters or estrogen blockers with this stack? Thanks.
 
cubsfan815

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I would start low with the combo at first, everyone has different tolerances.

Shift should be good later at night as well. Maybe first few days space them out, then you can play with 1+1 etc.

Alphamax our test booster and estrogen reducer works great with OxyMax XT. However it also contains F95, so mixing all 3 could cause GI distress, depending on how your stomach handles F95.
 

ddavis1

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Thanks. So you think a cap of OxyMax in the morning (fasted) and a cap of shift pre-workout or afternoon would be a good approach to start?
 
AntM1564

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Thanks. So you think a cap of OxyMax in the morning (fasted) and a cap of shift pre-workout or afternoon would be a good approach to start?
It is always good to start low to see what your tolerance is. The caffeine content in one cap of OxyMax XT is about 150 mg.

OxyMax XT could also be beneficial pre workout due to the amento. It aids in strength.
 
BeastFitness

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Instead of continually beating down the same energetic pathways and receptors, have you considered doing an extremely controlled review diet to enhance metabolic functioning and hormone secretion?
 

ddavis1

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How would that work? I am currently fasting anywhere from 16 - 20 hours most days. I had read that doing so and training fasted would help with natural production of growth hormone, etc.. I am also attempting to go low carb at dinner-time, but haven't been overly strict on that since it's often the only meal I eat. I also try to squeeze my protein, fat and fiber requirements in with shakes after dinner, but sometimes fall short.
 
kenpoengineer

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Have you had complete bloodwork, including a hormonal panel, done?
 
BeastFitness

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How would that work? I am currently fasting anywhere from 16 - 20 hours most days. I had read that doing so and training fasted would help with natural production of growth hormone, etc.. I am also attempting to go low carb at dinner-time, but haven't been overly strict on that since it's often the only meal I eat. I also try to squeeze my protein, fat and fiber requirements in with shakes after dinner, but sometimes fall short.
RIGHT THERE

Don't even worry about supplementation IF training and nutrition are not spot on. Get those in order first then worry about supplementation man
 
alexoc949

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Now I don't know your frame but if you're 6'1 and 185... I'd say you should be done losing weight and move into maintenance calories. Personally I wouldn't worry about any fat burners, I think they work very minimally. I'm 37 and get good dry leaning out effects, even strength gains when taking an AI like arimistame. I'm currently a week and a half into arom-x which is a different blend and it's all out leaning effects r huge for me. Also look into 7-Keto dhea. That will help lean the mid section. You may hear some negative things about what I mentioned or even reviews on the net, or u may not.... But most of that comes from younger lifters where these products have a lot less effect.

The stim fat burners r cool n all... Take them for energy if u like instead of coffee...
 

ddavis1

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Thanks. Average results via skin fold tests show about 163 lbs lean mass and about 22ish ponds fat. Mostly around my lower abdomen and lower back. I really want to lean down a bit more, but also want to move right into a lean bulk after that.
 
BeastFitness

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Honestly man its going to be really hard to give you specific advice without know absolutely everything going on as it seems theres more to know
 

ddavis1

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I appreciate the advice I have already received. I'll schedule the blood test soon as I am anxious to know where I stand too. Thanks again to all of you.
 
BeastFitness

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Anytime dude!
 

thepoetsuede

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OPTIONS:

Loose skin can be an issue if you lost THAT much fat. Nothing will take it off except surgery.
Just a thought of realism if this is the case.

KETO DIet - You can try a strict Keto/No Carbs diet without any refeeds for 2-4 weeks.

In the end you may be pushing yourself too hard where you body is NOT optimal and is crashing on you. Its been noted that TOO much dieting puts the body in a survival mode, thus slowing metabolism, etc. Try eating on a more regular basis 3X day.

Finally, water intake. Make sure your taking in a good amount!

Any supplement direction is after the fact. Its not going to change things that much. You need to figure out
what works for YOU on a regular basis. Supps can come into play later.

Good job with dropping the weight to date.
 

fittrainer42

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Your nutrition is horrible. Start with eating a minimum of 3 meals every day. Add small healthy snacks between meals. Break your calories up into 5 meals per day and you will stop the fat storage that you have your body programmed to do. NO supplement until this is fixed...
 
HIM

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It sort of goes with what some have said though I'll put it in a different way. You've lost ~25% of your weight from where you started your body is probably freaking out and wants a break from being at a deficit to get things back in balance. I'd try reverse dieting and working your maintenance up as high as possible then move into another cut. By then you should be leveled out with a healthy metabolism and ready to go again. Just my take FWIW.
 

ddavis1

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Thanks for the advice guys... I read mixed reviews on the whole IF thing, but figured I'd go with it since I don't really get hungry during the day if I skip breakfast (I would likely want to eat a lot if I do incorporate breakfast upon waking). I agree that my nutrition is likely lacking; I do try to get in as close to 200 grams of protein per day as I can (usually I rely heavily on protein shakes) and I try to drink close to a gallon of water a day too... In hindsight, IF would probably work better if I didn't do it every day... I mistakenly figured more was better. As far as the reverse dieting goes, I tried upping my calories for a week or two in the past and put on a bunch of weight (probably mostly water as it came back off fairly quickly). How long would you say it takes to repair a wrecked metabolism?

Also, just to be clear, the consensus is to move away from intermittent fasting all together and space meals throughout the day?

Thanks again guys.
 

ddavis1

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Do you all think it would be a good idea to do a mini bulk for a month or two and then move back into deficit territory? Would that be enough to fix a broken metabolism (and ideally put on some additional lean mass before cutting again)?
 
alexoc949

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I've been IF for three years now, I like that it's convenient and easier for me to control how much I eat. For me it's just preference
 

ddavis1

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I agree. I aside from avoiding the hassle of preparing food in the morning (or lunch most days), i don't really get hungry until I start eating each day (even when lifting). I am just wondering if I have messed my metabolism up (not specifically due to IF, but due to too severe of a calorie deficit for too long). I thought I could keep it up with a high calorie meal or two per week, but I average maybe 1200-1600 cal's per day and I go to the gym at least 4 days per week on top of that. Again, I do splurge on calories occasionally, but am running a substantial deficit. My body fat seems to have stalled as indicated by scale and calipers. I can definately gain a few pounds, but they come back off quickly so I'm pretty sure that's just water.
 

ddavis1

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Maybe I should just stop worrying about the scale weight and go for a mini bulk for a month or two to see if things regulate. Then try cutting again. It was a good run ( at least early on)...
 
HIM

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Dude you've got to up your calories. 1200-1600 cal sounds crazy low especially once you consider what you burn through working out. Im damn near done with my cut and I'm at a solid deficit with 1800 cal daily. With reverse dieting, at least for me, Ive found it works better to keep my macro split(45p/30c/25f) the same instead of eating the extra calories in carbs since its the carbs that bloats you. Its just water weight though so its not like your packing on lbs of fat.
I'd try keeping your protein high(like 1.25g per lb) and add 100cal to your daily calorie limit every week or every other week, depending on weigh ins. I'd bet you can work it up close to 2000 while still losing fat if your eating right and working out.
 
brundel

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I agree that at 6'1 185 you dont need to lose weight.
Your primary goal should be muscle mass...here is why...
The more muscle you carry the more calories it takes just to run your body even while at rest. 10lbs of muscle will increase your bodies fat loss potential.
So instead of extreme cuts that are hard on the body run a lean gainer.
Follidrone, Letrone, maybe Viron.
Increase cals to just above maintenance and keep it to 6 meals daily.
Cardio a min of 3x weekly either first thing in the AM or after training.
1.5-2g protein per/lb of bodyweight.

As your body gains muscle it will become a much more efficient fat burning machine.
When I was at my largest I did 0 cardio and was always sub 9%

PM me and Ill set you up with a code for a discount on a BLR stack.
 
Rodja

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Your nutrition is horrible. Start with eating a minimum of 3 meals every day. Add small healthy snacks between meals. Break your calories up into 5 meals per day and you will stop the fat storage that you have your body programmed to do. NO supplement until this is fixed...
Absolutely zero truth to this statement.

Dude you've got to up your calories. 1200-1600 cal sounds crazy low especially once you consider what you burn through working out. Im damn near done with my cut and I'm at a solid deficit with 1800 cal daily. With reverse dieting, at least for me, Ive found it works better to keep my macro split(45p/30c/25f) the same instead of eating the extra calories in carbs since its the carbs that bloats you. Its just water weight though so its not like your packing on lbs of fat.
I'd try keeping your protein high(like 1.25g per lb) and add 100cal to your daily calorie limit every week or every other week, depending on weigh ins. I'd bet you can work it up close to 2000 while still losing fat if your eating right and working out.
Finally, some actual advise that fits the bill. ~1650 per day is far too low for anyone remotely active.
 

ddavis1

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HIM,
Thanks for the tip. I'll start upping my intake by 100 cals per day today... I was a bit unsure how much I should add (how gradually) to avoid ballooning as I have done in the past... I'll up my protein intake as well. I appreciate the advice.

Hey Brundel,
I appreciate the advice and the coupon code... It was your thread on Exotherm that got me interested in supplementation in the first place (as noted in my opening question). Ideally, I would love to move into a slow bulk to add some muscle; I was just thinking that I should drop the last nagging bit of fat around my waist first... If you have a stack that would take care of both, I'm definitely up for trying it... I guess that means I should shelf the OxyMax and Shift that was recommended to me earlier (just arrived in the mail)... Unless there's any value to using fat burners pre-workout fasted and then eating more after working out to gain... Do you think that would help with calorie partitioning, etc. or is that sort of re-composition completely unrealistic?

Thanks again
 
brundel

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Maybe a combo of Exotherm and Incinderine. Exotherm has AIs and 2 fat burners and Incinderine is our fat burning specific product. Both are fantastic but together they are a powerhouse. Or you could use Incinderine and Letrone as letrone is more of a muscle builder than Exotherm.

Follidrone is also a potentially good option as epicatechin has been shown to increase fat loss.

Peri workout nutrition is of primary importance.
Your carbs should be primarily in your breakfast and pre and post training.
 
HIM

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HIM,
Thanks for the tip. I'll start upping my intake by 100 cals per day today... I was a bit unsure how much I should add (how gradually) to avoid ballooning as I have done in the past... I'll up my protein intake as well. I appreciate the advice.

Hey Brundel,
I appreciate the advice and the coupon code... It was your thread on Exotherm that got me interested in supplementation in the first place (as noted in my opening question). Ideally, I would love to move into a slow bulk to add some muscle; I was just thinking that I should drop the last nagging bit of fat around my waist first... If you have a stack that would take care of both, I'm definitely up for trying it... I guess that means I should shelf the OxyMax and Shift that was recommended to me earlier (just arrived in the mail)... Unless there's any value to using fat burners pre-workout fasted and then eating more after working out to gain... Do you think that would help with calorie partitioning, etc. or is that sort of re-composition completely unrealistic?

Thanks again
Just to be sure Im not confusing you its not 100 per day everyday, only weekly increases. So week one 1600, week two 1700, week three 1800 and so on. For whats its worth on your other questions its generally easier to pick a direction to go in and focus on that.
 

ddavis1

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That's what I thought... Just wishful thinking I guess... I'm just having a hard time eating more when I've grown accustomed to this level of calories... Nobody said it would be easy though... At my heaviest, I was close to 30% body fat and now, per calipers I'm at around 12% (looks more like 15 plus love handles to me though)... I'll try the gradual method as you indicated above (last time, I just went right into a higher caloric load and found it hard to keep up as I was so full all the time... plus I gained weight pretty quickly)...

Brundel,
I'm definitely interested in moving into a lean bulking routine if there's a chance the fat will continue to drop a bit (I guess the percentage will go down even if my body fat remains the same). My biggest concern is selecting the wrong supplements to help me reach that goal with all of these options. Any chance you could narrow your recommendation down based on that goal; a lean bulk with the potential to lose the love handles?

Thanks again to all of you. This is the first board I've ever posted on and your help is much appreciated...
 

ddavis1

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On a side note: Prior to finding this board, I purchased chrysin Surge (the capsules you warned against on your Exotherm thread), DHEA, DIM, DAA 3K, ALA and Carnatine. After finding it, I also purchased OxyMax and Shift (fat burners) and I still have practically full bottles of each. Can any of those be used with your recommended stack?
 
brundel

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Chrysin is basically worthless orally. :( There are tons of studies showing 0 effect. Transdermally it seems to work surprisingly well. We ran some tests and the Chrysin by itself, transdermally did in fact reduce estrogen levels.
Im not a fan of DIM or DAA. Love ALA and Carnitine. DHEA is subjective meaning its good for some but not for all.
I would do Viron, Exotherm, Carnitine, ALA and your stim stack. You wont likely gain much but itll def help you shred off fat.

One thing about ultra low cals. Your body begins to think its starving and in turn goes into storage mode. So your starving yourself and feeling like ass all day and your body stores everything you eat as bodyfat. Nasty cycle.
Better is to eat maintenance and run supps and do cardio. 1600-1700 cals is less than my 92lb friend eats. Just saying...its not enough food bro and your body is likely fighting back and storing fat.
 

ddavis1

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Thanks... So, do you think I should hold off on the sups until I slowly get back up to 2k - 2200 cals each day and then introduce them, or would it be OK to start everything now? Also, Should the Carnatine and ALA only be taken prior to a big meal to aid in nutrient partitioning or does it matter when they are taken?
 

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