High protein and reduced kidney function

Davidelsons

Member
My creatine numbers hve always been high normal. 1.2

After 1 year of .8-1gm per lb body weight of protein ..

1.38
1.44
1.78

cutting protein to see if kidney function improves.

Anyone experienced building muscle with low protein diet?
 
Every since I began lifting, high protein meals and supplementation with creatine, my creatinine levels have increased. For us lifters this is normal. It freaks doctors out though. If you or your doctor is concerned about kidney function, have him look at your BUN level and BUN/creatinine ratio.

Here is a good read on this;

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I understand . my wife was a nephrology physician assistant and saw the devastation that bad kidneys do to the body.. so you can imagine her alarm when my creatine has spiked ..

but reading some of these articles that has been suggested my creatine Spike the last blood test make sense... it should have .

I went on a calorie cut a week before lost almost 6-7 pounds but my lean body mass went up..

Nonetheless it's probably best that I stick with a lower protein diet for a month and see my kidney function I get a blood test every 30-60 days because I'm on trt anyway.

And the other concern is that my creatinine levels were at the high normal limit before I started weight lifting anyway ...so more reason to be cautious..
I'll post my new blood test results when I get them..
 
Ive taking in 250 grams protein just about everyday now for fifteen years. Usually its 350 grams protein now a days as I hold quite more muscle mass than fifteen years ago. According to my bloodwork BUN/creatinine ratio has been good. This past time it was a little bit high out of range.
 
Davidelsons said:
That's excellent that you have a low number in that range
.
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Thank you

how old are you btw?

are you doing any cardio?

any other things that could contribute to a higher kidney function? any other drugs/supplements etc, esp from that last test?

also making sure fully hydrated before before these tests and hydrated at all times drinking a lot. I mean if your thirsty drink sure. Sometimes when say a person is taking a lot of supplements drinking extra to flush them
 
BTW, here is a great IOS app to help track/graph bloodwork results:

myBloodTracker
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John Smeton said:
Thank you

how old are you btw?

are you doing any cardio?

any other things that could contribute to a higher kidney function? any other drugs/supplements etc, esp from that last test?

also making sure fully hydrated before before these tests and hydrated at all times drinking a lot. I mean if your thirsty drink sure. Sometimes when say a person is taking a lot of supplements drinking extra to flush them
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Age 44. Currently 202ibs. cut down from a 214. no cardio, resemble Ectomorph. Hard Gainer. And yes I'm not hydrated. I'm told to drink more water and im dehydrated per every test. Hard part is I'm not thirsty..

I need to drink more H20, that would help...
 
What's you blood pressure like? How about blood sugar? High BP and/or high blood sugar are much more harmful to the kidneys the level of protein you are eating.
 
Low blood pressure for sure. Blood sugar is fine.

The protein debate will wage on...


I want to be at .8 grm. Or even .6

I would never go 1.5-2.0 not with being high normal creatanine to start with..

Thanks
 
One other thing that could be effecting your BUN and creatinine numbers is if your working out prior to blood draw. It will spike your numbers, especially if your 12hrs fasted like most tests require.
 
Davidelsons said:
Age 44. Currently 202ibs. cut down from a 214. no cardio, resemble Ectomorph. Hard Gainer. And yes I'm not hydrated. I'm told to drink more water and im dehydrated per every test. Hard part is I'm not thirsty..

I need to drink more H20, that would help...
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There is your answer right there!!!! BOOM like a big sign in the sky. Up that water intake and that will drop off. It is much easier to filter a fluid than a gel... when dehydrated your blood is thick and viscous and it is very hard to filter out. So you tend to run into these things.

I am listed as having Stage 3 Kidney failure due to some scarring from an old infection I had in my kidneys and my creatinine is always around 1.35-1.55 sometimes hopping up to 1.7 if I am dehydrated. I typically eat between .8 LBM on low end, and 1.25 per lb of bodyweight on higher end.

Unless your kidneys are actually failing there is no need to go below 1.25g per lb of bodyweight. Of course there really isn't a bunch of reasons to go over .8g / lb of lbm if you are eating enough fats and carbs to feed the machine otherwise.

My first suggestion is to start drinking 1 gallon of water a day then go get your kidney markers tested. I can almost guaranty they will be close to back where they were before. By the way ANYONE who carries a decent bit of muscle is going to have higher creatinine levels. Also hard workouts near or around the test can increase that. You can also get a false positive for blood in the urine after a seriously hardcore leg workout.

Davidelsons said:
Low blood pressure for sure. Blood sugar is fine.

The protein debate will wage on...


I want to be at .8 grm. Or even .6

I would never go 1.5-2.0 not with being high normal creatanine to start with..

Thanks
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Sounds like you answered your own question. Go with .8g / lb of lbm so somewhere between 135-155 for you probably. Then since a hardgainer pound down about 2g per lb of bodyweight on carbs and fill the rest with fats. Squared away!
 
MrKleen73 said:
There is your answer right there!!!! BOOM like a big sign in the sky. Up that water intake and that will drop off. It is much easier to filter a fluid than a gel... when dehydrated your blood is thick and viscous and it is very hard to filter out. So you tend to run into these things.

I am listed as having Stage 3 Kidney failure due to some scarring from an old infection I had in my kidneys and my creatinine is always around 1.35-1.55 sometimes hopping up to 1.7 if I am dehydrated. I typically eat between .8 LBM on low end, and 1.25 per lb of bodyweight on higher end.

Unless your kidneys are actually failing there is no need to go below 1.25g per lb of bodyweight. Of course there really isn't a bunch of reasons to go over .8g / lb of lbm if you are eating enough fats and carbs to feed the machine otherwise.

My first suggestion is to start drinking 1 gallon of water a day then go get your kidney markers tested. I can almost guaranty they will be close to back where they were before. By the way ANYONE who carries a decent bit of muscle is going to have higher creatinine levels. Also hard workouts near or around the test can increase that. You can also get a false positive for blood in the urine after a seriously hardcore leg workout.



Sounds like you answered your own question. Go with .8g / lb of lbm so somewhere between 135-155 for you probably. Then since a hardgainer pound down about 2g per lb of bodyweight on carbs and fill the rest with fats. Squared away!
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Really appreciate you sharing. Yes, I don't drink enough water. period.. i have a apt with a nephrologist this week.. Just to be on the safe side...

Thanks again
 
Davidelsons said:
Really appreciate you sharing. Yes, I don't drink enough water. period.. i have a apt with a nephrologist this week.. Just to be on the safe side...

Thanks again
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Okay, but I will stress to you that the nephrologist is going to try to limit you down to like .4-.5g protein more than likely... I think my nephrologist told me I shouldn't have more than 80g of protein a day or something silly. When I really pushed back and said I understood about hydration and also people with higher than average muscle having higher levels, and that my BUN ratio is always good. At that point she conceded that there isn't any actual proof that higher protein will hurt the kidneys especially if hydration is kept up to par. At that point she told me she was okay with me going up to 1.25g of bodyweight for a few months but that she would prefer I be in the .8 range. More importantly she said is that I go in and get my kidney labs done every 6 months to make sure my creatinine is not climbing out of what had become my normal range. Now the ONLY time my creatinine goes over 1.4 is if I am not drinking enough water.

Your situation might be completely different, but if they don't tell you that something is indeed wrong with your kidney and can tell you what it is then limiting yourself that much is more than likely not needed. Like I said I have scarring on my kidneys from that infection and I can maintain MY normal levels for the last several years and often it is lower than it was a few years ago.

Basically for me I don't tyically go over 250g of protein a day. I can't imagine a time when I would need to as I don't intend to get to 250lbs...
 
Again appreciate the insight..

my wife used to be a nephrology physician assistant so I'm dealing with her being very cautious because they see the devastation that bad kidneys can cause.
.
A gallon of water seems easy to say but that's a lot of water to get down.. .8 is reasonable as long as I'm drinking water and my creatinine does not keep Rising..

but that's our problem right now... I'll just get thoroughly tested drink more water for the next blood test.

Being on TRT.. I have regular blood work. Better to get checked out now then take a risk of having kidney failure 5 years from now...
 
Davidelsons said:
Again appreciate the insight..

my wife used to be a nephrology physician assistant so I'm dealing with her being very cautious because they see the devastation that bad kidneys can cause.
.
A gallon of water seems easy to say but that's a lot of water to get down.. .8 is reasonable as long as I'm drinking water and my creatinine does not keep Rising..

but that's our problem right now... I'll just get thoroughly tested drink more water for the next blood test.

Being on TRT.. I have regular blood work. Better to get checked out now then take a risk of having kidney failure 5 years from now...
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If you make your goal drinking a gallon of water or other fluid that does not dehydrate you then most of those issues are probably going to fall away unless you truly have bad kidneys. Also making yourself drink a gallon of water a day is a lot better than knowingly making it harder for your kidneys to do their job which is what is happening here.

Definitely get them checked but at least try to drink a gallon a day UNTIL you go get your test done. You already know you are dehydrated. Going in for another kidney test while dehydrated is simply a waste of time and or money. If dehydrated you know your results will be skewed. As a matter of fact if you don't drink enough to start flushing the system your levels will remain higher even if you reach proper hydration because flushing IE spring cleaning for your kidneys only happens when you are drinking more water than your body needs causing you to produce more urea, which is what carries out the proteins and toxins...

When do you plan to go for the test. If you can drink a lot of water between now and then and hopefully to the point you begin to flush, then your kidneys will actually clear most of that excess out before your test. EI you will have shown yourself that your kidneys are doing their job and the test will prove that your levels are lowering just by using some Hydration Best Practices!
 
Met with Nephrology doctor today.. he ordered a battery of tests.. it's all paid for by insurance..

but definitely recommended I increase my water... that will help a lot .

It's very important that creatinine levels get back down to the normal range..even high normal is ok..

Unfortunately for me my kidney function is not Optimum....

anyway so a very high protein diet affects me differently than someone with normal kidney function..
 
Davidelsons said:
Met with Nephrology doctor today.. he ordered a battery of tests.. it's all paid for by insurance..

but definitely recommended I increase my water... that will help a lot .

It's very important that creatinine levels get back down to the normal range..even high normal is ok..

Unfortunately for me my kidney function is not Optimum....

anyway so a very high protein diet affects me differently than someone with normal kidney function..
Click to expand...

So he told you there was actually something wrong with your kidneys and diagnosed you? Which stage of kidney disease are you in? All kidney damage is labeled as disease for some reason... Like mine is not a degenerating disease it is just scarring from a strep strain that got into my kidneys when I was 12. So 1.3-1.7 is MY normal. It sticks around 1.4 most of the time and my nephrologist sas numbers have improved while me eating up to 1.25g per lb body weight.

If he didn't actually diagnose you with kidney disease then I would not leap to the assumption that the dehydration is not the reason your kidney function is not optimum. One of my good friends is the dietician at a kidney disease treatment facikity and she is who I get all of my information from regarding protein intake for people who are training and have various stages of kidney disease. She is also a bodybuilder, and knows the ins and outs of all of this with the clinical dietician education mixed with bodybuilding and prep coach experience. So I trust her explicitly since the doctors depend on her to feed their patients what is needed to recover from their kidney damage.

Also high protein diet is relative, what are you considering high? What a nephrologist does IE anything over .5g per lb LBM, or nutrition specialist who doesn't begin to consider protein intake high until the 1.5g per lb of target body weight.

For you I would guess LBM is around 170 ish and my recommended range for you was between .8 and 1.25g\lb LBM that is 136- 212.5g a day which most would not consider that high. Again though in the end your body becomes very efficient with protein so you can get by on the 136 and make those gains. If you can't have a lot of protein eat smaller amounts of protein frequently to drive protein synthesis. It won't be as satisfying or satiating but could help keep protein synthesis elevated which is key for growth!
 
MrKleen73 said:
So he told you there was actually something wrong with your kidneys and diagnosed you? Which stage of kidney disease are you in? All kidney damage is labeled as disease for some reason... Like mine is not a degenerating disease it is just scarring from a strep strain that got into my kidneys when I was 12. So 1.3-1.7 is MY normal. It sticks around 1.4 most of the time and my nephrologist sas numbers have improved while me eating up to 1.25g per lb body weight.

If he didn't actually diagnose you with kidney disease then I would not leap to the assumption that the dehydration is not the reason your kidney function is not optimum. One of my good friends is the dietician at a kidney disease treatment facikity and she is who I get all of my information from regarding protein intake for people who are training and have various stages of kidney disease. She is also a bodybuilder, and knows the ins and outs of all of this with the clinical dietician education mixed with bodybuilding and prep coach experience. So I trust her explicitly since the doctors depend on her to feed their patients what is needed to recover from their kidney damage.

Also high protein diet is relative, what are you considering high? What a nephrologist does IE anything over .5g per lb LBM, or nutrition specialist who doesn't begin to consider protein intake high until the 1.5g per lb of target body weight.

For you I would guess LBM is around 170 ish and my recommended range for you was between .8 and 1.25g\lb LBM that is 136- 212.5g a day which most would not consider that high. Again though in the end your body becomes very efficient with protein so you can get by on the 136 and make those gains. If you can't have a lot of protein eat smaller amounts of protein frequently to drive protein synthesis. It won't be as satisfying or satiating but could help keep protein synthesis elevated which is key for growth!
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Appreciate your information ..

had a blood test today will know the results soon ...

I'm not diagnosed with anything yet and it's doubtful I will ....creatinine Spike from what I described prior.. Mass calorie cut ..and dehydrarion..
 
Davidelsons said:
Appreciate your information ..

had a blood test today will know the results soon ...

I'm not diagnosed with anything yet and it's doubtful I will ....creatinine Spike from what I described prior.. Mass calorie cut ..and dehydration..
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Cool and I hope you hear the best possible outcome brother! I do think that you may have an issue getting your Creatinine into range with your amount of muscle regardless of optimal function but if you Bun ratio is a good range that is the true marker of your kidney efficiency. For example my recent bloodwork had me at Creatinine 1.45, and BUN Ratio of 17 with normal range being 6-22 and my doctors were happy with that.


Consuming large amounts of water / non dehydrating liquids will keep the blood thinner for easier filtration, as well as increase urea production to keep things flowing right out of your system. I dropped my creatinine by 3.5 points in one month just by increasing my fluids and keeping them relatively high.
 
My creatinine drop to 155 two weeks after drinking at least a gallon a day...

I actually need about a gallon and a half especially on days I work out..

another blood test coming in two more weeks....

The other health benefits I no longer have muscle cramps.. I used to get muscle cramps so easily not during workouts but after .....anytime I would stretch or move a certain way I would cramp up.....

it was dehydration all along...
 
Davidelsons said:
My creatinine drop to 155 two weeks after drinking at least a gallon a day...

I actually need about a gallon and a half especially on days I work out..

another blood test coming in two more weeks....

The other health benefits I no longer have muscle cramps.. I used to get muscle cramps so easily not during workouts but after .....anytime I would stretch or move a certain way I would cramp up.....

it was dehydration all along...
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what are the "in range" levels?
 
Diagnosed with Stage 3 Kidney Failure. Creatinine was down to 1.44 and a week later at 1.5. (was sick and more dehydrated.) Otherwise hydration much improved...

Unfortunately, i'm spilling kidney cells in urine.. a little bit. Trace amount of blood.... Kidney Ultra Sound was normal...bladder normal, although not emptying all the way... i have slightly enlarged prostate...

Dr said keep drinking and keep protein down.... I'm bulking now and drink Naked Mass . it has 50g protein per 1250 calories... i'm around .7 per pound... I'm 6'4" @ 216 now.... Hard gainer type....

Dr said see him in a year unless things get worse.... Will get regular blood work....

Not the news i was hoping for.... Thanks for all the info..
 
Davidelsons said:
Diagnosed with Stage 3 Kidney Failure. Creatinine was down to 1.44 and a week later at 1.5. (was sick and more dehydrated.) Otherwise hydration much improved...

Unfortunately, i'm spilling kidney cells in urine.. a little bit. Trace amount of blood.... Kidney Ultra Sound was normal...bladder normal, although not emptying all the way... i have slightly enlarged prostate...

Dr said keep drinking and keep protein down.... I'm bulking now and drink Naked Mass . it has 50g protein per 1250 calories... i'm around .7 per pound... I'm 6'4" @ 216 now.... Hard gainer type....

Dr said see him in a year unless things get worse.... Will get regular blood work....

Not the news i was hoping for.... Thanks for all the info..
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Jay Cutler only ate 180 grams of protein a day when bulking. However his carbs were extremely high! Carbs are extremely protein sparing.
 
Davidelsons said:
.. what do you mean protein sparing?
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When carbohydrates are there and plentiful then the body will not resort to the less efficient breakdown of muscle tissue for energy. This leaves the amino acid pool available for protein synthesis when it is time, as well as stopping the catabolism of muscle for energy. So it spares the proteins. Now Cutler ate something like 1500g or more of carbs a day if I remember correctly. I don't recommend that but definitely drive your carbohydrate intake as high as you can without tipping to heavily to fat gains and you will be squared away to bulk and grow. I would start by replacing any protein you remove with carbs, then replacing some of your fats if you tend to run them high. So long as blood sugar is not an issue then you should be good to go. If so then keep fats elevated more to help, but keep saturated fats @ 30% of fats or below. That's a high insulin environment so you don't want tons of fat that doesn't need converted to be stored like saturated fats available.
 
MrKleen73 said:
When carbohydrates are there and plentiful then the body will not resort to the less efficient breakdown of muscle tissue for energy. This leaves the amino acid pool available for protein synthesis when it is time, as well as stopping the catabolism of muscle for energy. So it spares the proteins. Now Cutler ate something like 1500g or more of carbs a day if I remember correctly. I don't recommend that but definitely drive your carbohydrate intake as high as you can without tipping to heavily to fat gains and you will be squared away to bulk and grow. I would start by replacing any protein you remove with carbs, then replacing some of your fats if you tend to run them high. So long as blood sugar is not an issue then you should be good to go. If so then keep fats elevated more to help, but keep saturated fats @ 30% of fats or below. That's a high insulin environment so you don't want tons of fat that doesn't need converted to be stored like saturated fats available.
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Thanks for that.... yes I'm eating a **** ton of carbs right now mainly from the bulking shakes..... I'm more of a hardgainer body type so I can get away with eating a lot....

gaining weight is a challenge losing weight is easy...

Especially with trt and some other supplements the fat is burned off as I try to put it on..
 
Davidelsons said:
Thanks for that.... yes I'm eating a **** ton of carbs right now mainly from the bulking shakes..... I'm more of a hardgainer body type so I can get away with eating a lot....

gaining weight is a challenge losing weight is easy...

Especially with trt and some other supplements the fat is burned off as I try to put it on..
Click to expand...

When it comes to carbs, I prefer oatmeal to maltodextrin. I use a Nutri Bullet and powder 3cups of dry oatmeal, that 900 cals, add 3c of water, and it’s easy to drink down.

Typically I’ll add 50g protein, add a table spoon of honey for flavor and it’s a 1210cal shake. Sometimes I throw some spinach or broccoli sprouts in too.

If you like naked, you may also like promix. They do undenatured, unflavored, grass-fed, soy free, non-gmo, ect. I’ve tried both, and promix is a little less money, for the same product.
 
Received great news on Monday .

my creatinine was down to 1.3!!

And that's in my protein between .6 to .8 per pound of body weight....

I've been consuming between 3500 and 4000 calories mostly carbs from weight gainers and really drinking a ton of water!.
 
Sounds like you are really getting a handle on it now!
 
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