Unanswered Hematocrit - stuck between rock and a hard place

[CroLifter]

So for the past 2.5 weeks i have been doing 750 iu eod of hcg and 100mg test e per week (split into two injects of 50mg). I have also been supplementing iron.
My hct was 0.474 12 days ago, yesterday it was 0.503!

I cannot donate since i have iron deficiency (7 on a scale of 12-30). I cannot eat grapefruit since it interacts badly with cabergoline i am taking.

I dropped the hcg and iron supplementation for now until my hct stabilizes.

Is there anything else i can take, supplement or food wise which may lower my hematocrit, like grapefruit might?

I am currently drinking massive amount of water (peeing 2-3 times per night) in hopes of keeping my blood as thin as possible.

 

[kisaj]

First of all, that is not a number you should have any concern over. I've talked/worked with many doctors and specialists over the years on TRT and every one of them agreed that there really is only concern if you are consistently 54+ and properly hydrated. At that point there is discussion about blood donation.

Myself, I take nattokinase and simply stay hydrated.

 

[Mathb33]

Do you have any reason to worry about your hematocrit? Is it high or what? Last bloods you got they were fine no?

 

[CroLifter]

The value of 0.503 is nothing to worry about yeah, however i was unpleasantly surprised to find that it went up from 0.474 to 0.503 in 10 days.
And both times the test was taken at the same time in the morning, having had only 2 cups of water prior to it after waking up.

the thing i dont like about hct pver 0.50 is the fact that i am waking up every day with my arm asleep.

Maybe i could eat grapefruits (shown to lower hematocrit in a month) and lower my caber dose to 0.125mg 2x per week? Study i have seen says that grapefruit increases concentration of cabergoline 1.7 times.
Because a component of grapefruit inhibits the enzyme which is responsible for metabolizing cabergoline.

i mean they say to avoid grapefruit juice along with cabergoline but the study says that no adverse effects were noted and that cabers effects were augmented. So maybe it is as simple as just cutting the caber dose in half?

 

[kisaj]

Don't know about that interaction but it is the naringin in grapefruit that is active and you can just buy the capsules.

I HIGHLY doubt that an HCT in normal range is related to your arm being asleep in the morning. Much more likely you are just laying on it. Lol.

 

[CroLifter]

People are now actually telling me that lowering hematocrit using grapefruit is bollocks.

 

[kisaj]

Well, I can personally attest to it lowering mine by 1-2 pts with all other factors being equal. There is this older study as well:

Ingestion of grapefruit lowers elevated hematocrits in human subjects - PubMed

This study was based on in vitro observations that naringin isolated from grapefruit induced red cell aggregation and evidence that clumped red cells are removed from the circulation by phagocytosis. The effect on hematocrits of adding grapefruit to the daily diet was determined using 36 human...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[CroLifter]

Did you ever take caber while ating grapefruit?

I forgot to ask my doc whether it would be ok to drink grapefruit juice if i lower the dose of caber.
I asked the question on a medical forum but am yet to receive an answer.

 

[Matthersby]

Blood draw kit from online veterinary source + a week or two practice getting an IV in or blood draw(either on yourself or someone willing to stick you with a needle)
Might seem a little crazy, but it solves every one of your problems if you’re worried about hematocrit.

15 years ago, I was in the military and I had a barber I went to twice a month.
Tragically she died and I showed up only to leave wondering where I would now get my hair cut.
And then I had a revelation....
This lady was 85 years old and chain smoked while cutting my hair.. How fucking hard could it even be?
Within a few months I had a **** hot fade down pat that I gave myself with some shears and a medicine cabinet mirror.
Just two years later, my power window motor broke in Arizona, in July.
The mechanic told me it would cost $700 to fix it, I made little money at the time, so I went down the road to a Auto parts store only to find the motor itself sold there for $60. 2 or 3 YouTube videos later and a couple sweaty hours, and I had my power windows working again.

Do you see where I’m going with this?

You CAN donate blood to get your H&H down, you just haven’t realized that you are going to be the one to do it....
Believe in yourself. That lady at the blood donation place that was going to put a needle in you has an IQ of 86 and still has crack cocaine in her system from last night.
You are about a week away, 5 Youtube videos, and $36 away from having her skillset.
We all just need to overcome hurdles in life by taking the initiative to learn a new skill and solve a problem in the process...

 

[CroLifter]

Blood draw kit from online veterinary source + a week or two practice getting an IV in or blood draw(either on yourself or someone willing to stick you with a needle)
Might seem a little crazy, but it solves every one of your problems if you’re worried about hematocrit.

15 years ago, I was in the military and I had a barber I went to twice a month.
Tragically she died and I showed up only to leave wondering where I would now get my hair cut.
And then I had a revelation....
This lady was 85 years old and chain smoked while cutting my hair.. How fucking hard could it even be?
Within a few months I had a **** hot fade down pat that I gave myself with some shears and a medicine cabinet mirror.
Just two years later, my power window motor broke in Arizona, in July.
The mechanic told me it would cost $700 to fix it, I made little money at the time, so I went down the road to a Auto parts store only to find the motor itself sold there for $60. 2 or 3 YouTube videos later and a couple sweaty hours, and I had my power windows working again.

Do you see where I’m going with this?

You CAN donate blood to get your H&H down, you just haven’t realized that you are going to be the one to do it....
Believe in yourself. That lady that at the blood donation place that was going to put a needle in you has an IQ of 86 and still has crack cocaine in her system from last night.
You are about a week away, 5 Youtube videos, and $36 away from having her skillset.
We all just need to overcome hurdles in life by taking the initiative to learn a new skill and solve a problem in the process...

Maaan i have been doing phlebotomies myself...that is not an issue.
I drained like 1500ml of blood in a span of 7 weeks.
I jus tput an 18g on insulin syringe and let it drip into the premarked container. Makes a mess after you pull the needle out since you only have one hand to work with.
I am all for diy that is my life motto. Hell, i dont think many people homebrew their first ever cycle.
However i am iron deficient and therefore cannot do it.
iron is 7 on a scale of 12-30
that is why i am searching for other options.
I am starting to feel better after supplementing with liquid iron for 2 weeks and dont want to go back to feeling like sh1t, out of breath and tired all the time.


And I have been giving myself a haircut for the last 8 years.

 

[dillface02241]

People are now actually telling me that lowering hematocrit using grapefruit is bollocks.

None of that crap works. There is nothing you can do externally to lower your HCT other than lay off test or donate. Stop reading into bro science. And your fine, stop worrying about it, it'll bounce back after cycle.

 

[CroLifter]

But is there an answer why hct tends to go up so much even on trt doses? Is it the unnatural nature of peaks and troughs of exogenous test compared to daily fluctuation of endogenous production?

For example, this dose of 50mg 2x per week puts me at 7.1 ng/ml total testosterone which is just above the middle of the reference range.
When I was natural hct was around 0.46 and now it wants to be at least 0.50.

Granted, natural test levels were in the 300s, measured in the morning, so i at least doubled the amount of test i have in my body.

Am I correct in believing that smaller, more frequent injections (like 50mg 2x per week or even smaller more frequent doses) tend to elevated hct less than say, injecting 100mg e7d all at once?

 

[kisaj]

None of that crap works. There is nothing you can do externally to lower your HCT other than lay off test or donate. Stop reading into bro science. And your fine, stop worrying about it, it'll bounce back after cycle.

You actually are incorrect and in effect, providing broscience yourself.

 

[Mathb33]

Who said being .50 wasn’t normal??? Bro you keep trying to fix things that aren’t broken. You took so much blood out of yourself in a short period of time of course your hematocrit was going to be lower and it’s also normal that it went back fairly fast in the 50s... it doesn’t mean it’ll keep rising... just do bloods eo months or something and as long as you’re within range you’re good to go no?!

 

[CroLifter]

Do you think that supplementing with liquid iron, 30mg per day, along with eating lots of iron rich food to treat my iron deficiency without anemia is creating a problem with high red blood cell count?

 

[kisaj]

Absolutely supplementing iron and eating an iron rich diet will affect RBC levels.

 

[CroLifter]

Absolutely supplementing iron and eating an iron rich diet will affect RBC levels.

That is what is worrying me. I am within natural range but i really need to supplement iron and eat iron rich food as i am barely starting to feel a little bit better.

I am worried that it will go to 0.54+, even on just 50mg 2x per week (100mg total).

as i said, hct skyrocketed in 10 days from 0.474 to 0.503 on 100mg test e per week, 750 iu hcg eod and 30mg liquid iron supplement per day.
I really dont want it to go any higher. I discontinued the hcg.

I mean, i can drop t dose to 80mg per week, but seriously, that would probably put me at like 450-500. I feel good at 700ng/dl

 

[dillface02241]

You actually are incorrect and in effect, providing broscience yourself.

No, not really incorrect at all, this is what my doctor told me...lol. You can make it go up, but you can't eat certain foods to make any material difference. Prove me wrong...didn't think so

 

[CroLifter]

No, not really incorrect at all, this is what my doctor told me...lol. You can make it go up, but you can't eat certain foods to make any material difference. Prove me wrong...didn't think so

Doesnt phagocytosis happen with long term fasting, like 48 hours plus?
Maybe in that case we could see our hct lowering without phlebotomy.

 

[dillface02241]

Doesnt phagocytosis happen with long term fasting, like 48 hours plus?
Maybe in that case we could see our hct lowering without phlebotomy.

my doc and then endo talked to me when my HCT was at 53.4. Both of them said the same thing, there's not much you can do other than donate or give test a rest. Guys like Kissaj may tell you to eat grapefruit or whatever, but that won't work. I tried it all man. I used to get headaches and loss of breath, red face, it was terrible.

but remember, your body makes half of your red blood cells per week so after a couple of weeks, you'll drop for sure.

 

[CroLifter]

my doc and then endo talked to me when my HCT was at 53.4. Both of them said the same thing, there's not much you can do other than donate or give test a rest. Guys like Kissaj may tell you to eat grapefruit or whatever, but that won't work. I tried it all man. I used to get headaches and loss of breath, red face, it was terrible.

but remember, your body makes half of your red blood cells per week so after a couple of weeks, you'll drop for sure.

Phlebotomy is as elegant a solution as it gets, i do it myself at home.
I just cant do it atm because i am iron deficient.

As a matter of fact, i would be prohibited from donating blood if i was honest (i didnt donate blood after offenses so my conscience is clear, i did at home phlebotomies).

It is interesting how hct goes up even if we keep testosterone levels inside the physiologic range. Look up other thread i started, i found a study which suggests more frequent lower doses increase hct more than once per week equivalent dose.

Polycythemia: Once per week VS twice per week injections? - AnabolicMinds.com

So i just encountered this study: https://www.auajournals.org/doi/full/10.1016/j.juro.2016.02.1856 Basically it says that biweekly injections caused higher hematocrit values than equivalwnt once per week dose? I usually read that people say more frequent lower doses (say 50mg test e 2x per...

anabolicminds.com

 

[dillface02241]

Phlebotomy is as elegant a solution as it gets, i do it myself at home.
I just cant do it atm because i am iron deficient.

As a matter of fact, i would be prohibited from donating blood if i was honest (i didnt donate blood after offenses so my conscience is clear, i did at home phlebotomies).

It is interesting how hct goes up even if we keep testosterone levels inside the physiologic range. Look up other thread i started, i found a study which suggests more frequent lower doses increase hct more than once per week equivalent dose.

Polycythemia: Once per week VS twice per week injections? - AnabolicMinds.com

So i just encountered this study: https://www.auajournals.org/doi/full/10.1016/j.juro.2016.02.1856 Basically it says that biweekly injections caused higher hematocrit values than equivalwnt once per week dose? I usually read that people say more frequent lower doses (say 50mg test e 2x per...

anabolicminds.com

That's what pissed me off. My levels were always in the middle lower range and I still got the high HCT. Some guys are just unlucky like that. What did help though is taking a month off, then I took another month off about 6 months after that. It seems to go up slower every time I take some time off. I do my bloods quarterly now.

And what also helped me was that I went to one time per week instead of two. Everyone told me to do two times per week to lower my HCT and keep levels steady, but I found pinning one time a week is better for my HCT levels.

everyone's different

 

[CroLifter]

That's what pissed me off. My levels were always in the middle lower range and I still got the high HCT. Some guys are just unlucky like that. What did help though is taking a month off, then I took another month off about 6 months after that. It seems to go up slower every time I take some time off. I do my bloods quarterly now.

And what also helped me was that I went to one time per week instead of two. Everyone told me to do two times per week to lower my HCT and keep levels steady, but I found pinning one time a week is better for my HCT levels.

everyone's different

I assume you had previously low natural levels. Like i did (300s). Maybe us with low natural levels are more prone to erythrocytosis as our bodies are conditioned to run on low testosterone and are sensitive to normal/high-normal. Maybe us who never had highish natural test, even in our teens, we are kinda cheating nature in this regard. Maybe that is why i get all this anxiety and panic on testosterone. Used only to low levels whole my life.

Would you say that hcg in itself raises hematocrit or is it just a byproduct of increased testosterone following hcg administration?


We need a substance which inhibits erythropoetin production. For sure someday science will produce it.

 

[CroLifter]

And what also helped me was that I went to one time per week instead of two. Everyone told me to do two times per week to lower my HCT and keep levels steady, but I found pinning one time a week is better for my HCT levels.

everyone's different

That is exactly what the study in my other thread is saying. Equivalent once per week dosing caused smaller elevation of hematocrit than biweekly dosing.

And they used 200mg per week, which, even though most wont admit, is in all seriousness more than just replacement, except in maybe few select cases.
I mean, people are coming in with trough levels of 800-1000 on the morning before the next injection.
Genetically gifted natty might have those levels in the morning, these guys are probably peaking at 1500 ng/dl. And their levels do not drop to like a third of morning values like a natural person's levels would.

So they average out a much higher test level than any natural person would during the course of one week.

 

[kisaj]

No, not really incorrect at all, this is what my doctor told me...lol. You can make it go up, but you can't eat certain foods to make any material difference. Prove me wrong...didn't think so

I'm not going to argue with you about this, despite what your doctor told you, as my doctors are the ones that initially suggested it because it worked for their other clients. The fact is, it can and does work and has helped me. The bigger picture here is that keeping levels in physiological ranges, staying hydrated, not over consuming alcohol, and not taking things that will increase RBC are all more important.

Also to touch on another point that was brought up in this thread, more frequent dosing actually will do more to increase HCT than lower it. You are better off with 1x weekly if this is a concern.

 

[CroLifter]

Also to touch on another point that was brought up in this thread, more frequent dosing actually will do more to increase HCT than lower it. You are better off with 1x weekly if this is a concern.

Is HCG one of those things that increase hct in itself or is it just a result of increased test from hcg shots?

 

[kisaj]

Is HCG one of those things that increase hct in itself or is it just a result of increased test from hcg shots?

Result of increased test.

 

[Matthersby]

Totally misunderstood your first post. I didn’t realize you had Highish HCT AND low iron. I just thought blood donation was flagging your iron levels for not being able to donate in which case self donation.
I would just get my iron in check and try to stay in low 50s. I live there and just drink lots of water and take a baby aspirin a few times a day.

 

[dillface02241]

I assume you had previously low natural levels. Like i did (300s). Maybe us with low natural levels are more prone to erythrocytosis as our bodies are conditioned to run on low testosterone and are sensitive to normal/high-normal. Maybe us who never had highish natural test, even in our teens, we are kinda cheating nature in this regard. Maybe that is why i get all this anxiety and panic on testosterone. Used only to low levels whole my life.

Would you say that hcg in itself raises hematocrit or is it just a byproduct of increased testosterone following hcg administration?


We need a substance which inhibits erythropoetin production. For sure someday science will produce it.

My initial bloods before TRT was at 299, so yes, pretty low. My doc gave me 200mg per week but i soon found out that was way too much for me: acne, total steroid body look, and T levels over 1400. I am at 120mg now and I feel a lot better. I do HCG but have always wanted to know if it raises HCT, I don't have an answer to that.

 

[Matthersby]

My initial bloods before TRT was at 299, so yes, pretty low. My doc gave me 200mg per week but i soon found out that was way too much for me: acne, total steroid body look, and T levels over 1400. I am at 120mg now and I feel a lot better. I do HCG but have always wanted to know if it raises HCT, I don't have an answer to that.

I don’t believe it does.
Test does a great job of doing that so I’d assume that’s your culprit. Just need to get Iron up, and keep hct under 53

 

[CroLifter]

My initial bloods before TRT was at 299, so yes, pretty low. My doc gave me 200mg per week but i soon found out that was way too much for me: acne, total steroid body look, and T levels over 1400. I am at 120mg now and I feel a lot better. I do HCG but have always wanted to know if it raises HCT, I don't have an answer to that.

Steroid body look? What do you mean by that? Do you mean like overdeveloped delts and traps? Because i love that sh1t.

That was the first thing i noticesd to grow after i hopped on test. Like 3 weeks in i woke up one morning and was like wtf is this me haha.

Because i trained the hell out of my delts previously (ohp, laterals) but they just didnt want to grow.

 

[dillface02241]

Steroid body look? What do you mean by that? Do you mean like overdeveloped delts and traps? Because i love that sh1t.

That was the first thing i noticesd to grow after i hopped on test. Like 3 weeks in i woke up one morning and was like wtf is this me haha.

Because i trained the hell out of my delts previously (ohp, laterals) but they just didnt want to grow.

lol...yeah the big veins, overdeveloped delts. Wife hates the bodybuilding look, more into dad bods i guess. whatever. So she got on me for this which I thought was pretty normal looking

 

[Mathb33]

Looking good

 

[CroLifter]

lol...yeah the big veins, overdeveloped delts. Wife hates the bodybuilding look, more into dad bods i guess. whatever. So she got on me for this which I thought was pretty normal looking

Yup thats it. The "test" look hahaha. Not attainable naturally, just shows how 200mg test goes a long way.

oh and btw, i absolutely love the overdeveloped delt look. I cant imagine myself any different now lol.

and you just gave me some motivation to hit the gym today with that pic. Care to share stats (height/weight)?

 

[dillface02241]

5,9", 155 pds now in that pic. When I was at 200mg, I was at 165 pds, but that was a really bad look where people just know something is up.

 

[CroLifter]

Damn man 165 lbs??? I would have sworn you were at least 200lbs.

I am 6'5 240, pretty much the same bodyfat and i look lile that only when i have a pump.

 

[Matthersby]

Looking good

I know right?

 

[kisaj]

You look way bigger than 155 if you are 5'9". Well done.

 

[dillface02241]

thanks all, i get that a lot; people always think i'm around 170. If you look at my wrists and fingers closely, you'll see they're about the same size of a little girl. It's embarrassing AF but whatever.....

 

[CroLifter]

thanks all, i get that a lot; people always think i'm around 170. If you look at my wrists and fingers closely, you'll see they're about the same size of a little girl. It's embarrassing AF but whatever.....

Damn man mine are the same way. My left wrist is almost 8 inches around but since i have long arms they look girly.

and for the record, my hairline is receeding now. Yeah, me, who was bragging about taking masteron and proviron and not worrying about my hair it seems that everyone reaches their limit at some point hahahaha.

 

[kisaj]

Look at it this way, you are 6'5" and most people won't see the top of your head. lol

 

[CroLifter]

Look at it this way, you are 6'5" and most people won't see the top of your head. lol

Just shy of 6'6 to be exact