HCG without shutdown

Rostam

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Isn’t HCG going to be suppressive by itself if you’re already in range for testosterone and natty?
 
Rostam

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But lower doses doesn’t mean it’s not suppressive. If you are increasing your testosterone secretion by other mean that LH stimulation (i.e using SARMs) I believe you’ll still experience the negative feedback mechanism.
 
Smont

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I was thinking about trying HCG for a little boost, but I'm not shutdown or post cycle. I don't have bloods, am 34. my test levels are probably considered healthy but I've felt better. seems like estrogen is the main concern with doing HCG so I ordered some SNS inhibit E. I'd rather not run a real AI if possible, but should I?

any dosing recommendations? (looking at 5k IU injectable)
Go to vigorous Steve's YouTube channel. He talks about this in a video. Apparently you can use it to get a small amount above the natural range and build a little extra muscle. It is still going to cause some suppression after discontinuing but you should bounce right back. The doses I'm not sure about but I think they were like 1000 3x a week or something like that. I don't personally know anybody that's actually done it in real life. But he does it with some clients apparently
 
Smont

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Go to vigorous Steve's YouTube channel. He talks about this in a video. Apparently you can use it to get a small amount above the natural range and build a little extra muscle. It is still going to cause some suppression after discontinuing but you should bounce right back. The doses I'm not sure about but I think they were like 1000 3x a week or something like that. I don't personally know anybody that's actually done it in real life. But he does it with some clients apparently
It's also going to raise your estrogen a good amount
 
Smont

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Ok thanks I have been and will look into this. Sounds like clomiphene is typically used to prevent shutdown, but i'm guessing there are other options
I know a lot of people that tried to use clomid on cycle to avoid shutdown and they all were unsuccessful. Some of them had less suppression then they normally would but that was on very low dose short cycles. You really can't have your cake and eat it too. If your worried about suppressing your natural testosterone levels then don't use hormones that suppress your testosterone. That's pretty much the only way about it.
 
Smont

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If your looking for a edge without suppression then try mk677 with cjc dac. That's probably as good as it's going to get
 
Smont

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Mk677 25mg 4-5x a week and 2mg cjc with dac injected sub q every 5 -7days, if you can afford it use double the cjc dose
 
Kronic

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I know a lot of people that tried to use clomid on cycle to avoid shutdown and they all were unsuccessful. Some of them had less suppression then they normally would but that was on very low dose short cycles. You really can't have your cake and eat it too. If your worried about suppressing your natural testosterone levels then don't use hormones that suppress your testosterone. That's pretty much the only way about it.
well I don't see anything saying to do HCG for longer than a 5 day period. I don't think you're supposed to stay on it for long at all. maybe that's why?
 
Smont

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well I don't see anything saying to do HCG for longer than a 5 day period. I don't think you're supposed to stay on it for long at all. maybe that's why?
He has a whole thing about using HCG as a whole cycle, months at a time.
 
Smont

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sounds interesting, but I was interested in the long term health benefits rather than just the test boost. it seems like doing a little bit of HCG could prolong/maintain my fertility and natural test production. I still get morning wood but idk I think I used to make more. still don't have kids yet so maintaining healthy sperm kinda matters to me a bit.

I'm not completely against suppression and was considering doing a cycle soon, but I wanna make sure to protect my nuts
The two things I mentioned in that post the MK and the CJC have nothing to do with testosterone
 
Smont

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They increase your natural production of gh and igf1, boost your appetite and make you hold a little water. It basically puts you in a better environment for muscle growth
 
Smont

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I read this page, still gotta watch his video. nothing ever mentions shutdown. mostly just mentions wrangling estrogen. I don't really understand how this drug could both shut down and restore hormone levels
Look for the videos he does about starting your first cycle. He talks about how with some guys, before there first cycle he puts them on a hcg cycle to see how high he can get there testosterone levels and build muscle before actually starting a cycle. The hcg cycle could be 6weeks or 6 months depending on how they respond.

I want to be clear, I haven't tried this. Or know anyone who has. But the guy is knowledgeable and has a lot of clients so I have to assume there's some validity to that
 
Smont

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Hcg sends a signal to your testicles to produce more testosterone and sex hormones. But the signal is coming from a outside source. So after you finish the hcg you still need to use a serm to pct and get things back or your testosterone levels will drop significantly after stopping the hcg. Honestly the whole subject is very complicated and I don't completely understand it myself.
 
Smont

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huh ok. man all the serms sound kinda nasty on the side effects. tamoxifen seems best i guess
It depends, if you don't get all the emotional side effects from clomid I like clomid better just because it does a better job at recovery. But most people tolerate tamoxifen better
 
Smont

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It all goes back to that no free lunch thing, when you're messing around with your hormones there's all kinds of potential for bad things to happen. None of those bad things might happen but there's potential for a lot of things to happen
 
Smont

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ya I know. I was looking into HCG and some sites said it's made from hamster ovaries? kinda wild to be injecting that
I've never heard that before in my life, don't buy that lol.

HCG it comes from pregnant women and then synthesized and manufactured blah blah blah whatever. But not from hamsters lol
 
Kronic

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i think this is the video

his protocol:
- lean out to prevent aromatization naturally
- keep Aromasin on hand in case of estrogen outbreak (only ever use low dose, may not be necessary)
- no mention of SERMS that I heard
- PCT after HCG is not necessary if your estradiol is under control, but your test levels will drop after coming off. it's not really clear if you would revert to your natural average or if you'd go back to the exact way you were before.
 
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KvanH

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HCG mimics LH and thus suppresses LH production. So at least in theory when you stop the HCG, your nuts stop getting the signal to produce test and your LH is low, so no signal to produce test from pituitary gland to nuts either, until your LH recovers.
 
Kronic

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HCG mimics LH and thus suppresses LH production. So at least in theory when you stop the HCG, your nuts stop getting the signal to produce test and your LH is low, so no signal to produce test from pituitary gland to nuts either, until your LH recovers.
I'll probably grab a SERM just in case, but I'm starting to think my LH is just trash already. supposedly smoking weed is bad for LH 🥴
 

scump

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plenty of people use HCG as a TRT by itself, i have also seen endos offer it with test as combination TRT. Obviously keep an eye on E2 as mentioned.

as for the suppression side of things HCG does suppress whilst using it but recovery is very brisk, hence why we used it to recover from AAS cycles.

to see results though you would need higher doses of HCG than what we have naturally, naturally we produce around 250iu twice a week, so higher than that.

Stay away from power PCT protocols for what you're considering, super high doses like this are not designed to be run in any type of long term as this can have permanent effects.

You could look into stacking this with DAA as well, as for the nay sayers on DAA, majority haven't seen the research, the paper which showed no results was done on people with testosterone so low that they should actually be on TRT. It's cheap and can be very effective for some.
 

scump

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thanks for the info. I was planning on starting with 100iu 3 times a week. i got one 5k iu vial coming but now I'm wondering if I should get another before starting.

so you think a SERM PCT wouldn't be necessary? I was gonna still get some chlomiphine just to keep on hand but hoping to not need it
300iu a week would potentially decrease your test levels if they're healthy.

Your goal here is to have more LH signaling than baseline, so you want a supraphysiological dose, this would be anything above 500iu/week. To a degree (diminishing returns etc.) the higher the dose the bigger the response, so i would think if you want to see a notable increase you would want at least 500iu twice a week or 300iu 3x a week, this should give close to double the natural production.

A second vial would be a good idea if you wanted to run it for longer, otherwise you're looking at about a 5 week cycle. As for a SERM PCT, nah i wouldn't think its completely necessary for just a HCG cycle like this, its a very different type of suppression compared to exogenous testosterone. You could get a natty product like that CEL test booster i hear really good things about M-test, or if you have a different one preferred. I would just start your natty booster during your last week of HCG, that way you should have achieved peak plasma before removing the HCG.

That being said Clomid in itself is also a great test booster, but also has its own sides, so... you have options lol.
 

scump

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thanks, guess I'll be running 900iu a week. probably going to break it up into more than 3 injections though (thinking 150 x 6) I don't mind pinning. i did get another 5k vial, but might not run it consecutive.

I'll be doing sns inhibit-e, and I have aromasin/chlomiphene on standby. planning on probably only needing a small dose of aromasin, but we will see.

I'll also be doing PEG-MGF. haven't decided on dosing protocol yet. seems like you just inject it post workout or on off days.
Honestly pinning twice a week is all you need, but if you want to pin 6 times a week by all means lol.

if you have easy access to aromasin you should check out how effective it is as a testosterone booster.

No experience with PEG-MGF but should be a nice addition.

900iu a week should see a moderate result, if your test usually sits lower then hopefully noticeable.
 
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ok I skipped HCG for a day, been doing about 12mg aromasin a day, estrogen is under control for the most part. gonna skip another day and do 5mg aromasin.

it's definitely working, I feel great. GF likes it too.

gonna start optimize-t today I think
I'm not trying to be a dick, but saying something is definitely working does not mean it's definitely working, that is called placebo effect without proof via bloodwork.

Did you get before blood work and do you plan on doing after blood work because without those two things none of this means anything to anyone other then you.

You 100% cannot judge your hormonal changes on "feel". As a big part of human nature when we want something to work we placebo it into working.

Without bloodwork before and after this is all nothing more then a guess and some placebo effect
 
Kronic

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I'm not trying to be a dick, but saying something is definitely working does not mean it's definitely working, that is called placebo effect without proof via bloodwork.

Did you get before blood work and do you plan on doing after blood work because without those two things none of this means anything to anyone other then you.

You 100% cannot judge your hormonal changes on "feel". As a big part of human nature when we want something to work we placebo it into working.

Without bloodwork before and after this is all nothing more then a guess and some placebo effect
okie erased everything I could
 
Smont

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okie erased everything I could
I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about what your doing, I'm just say it's not good practice to say things as facts because someone else could come in here and just start copying what your doing. Then there going to be expecting your perceived results.

I also enjoy experimenting and trying out stuff on myself. But we have to be careful what we say, especially in today's age for everybody believes everything they read on the internet lol.

By all means stick with what your doing, just let ppl know that your presenting your opinions, you know what I'm saying?
 
Kronic

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I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about what your doing, I'm just say it's not good practice to say things as facts because someone else could come in here and just start copying what your doing. Then there going to be expecting your perceived results.

I also enjoy experimenting and trying out stuff on myself. But we have to be careful what we say, especially in today's age for everybody believes everything they read on the internet lol.

By all means stick with what your doing, just let ppl know that your presenting your opinions, you know what I'm saying?
no thanks. everyone was retarded about it when I mentioned doing HCG in the other thread too. when I say I feel great that's obviously my opinion lol
 
f4iguy

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Clomid doesn't have a great reputation for boosting performance in the gym. I tried it and like many others experienced an increase in total and free test in labs without any benefits in performance. There's also the possibility of permanent vision changes. It probably won't occur but why take the risk? My suggestion is to supplement with 10-12 mg of boron citrate, get your D level in the upper range above 60, check DHEA level, and get 7-8 hours of sleep. Verifying your baseline numbers then get follow up labs to eliminate the placebo effect. Another thing to consider is that bumping your total testosterone up 100-200 may have no impact. Good luck!
 

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