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HCG versus T Therapy

bobbyn

Member
Hey Guys

Have a question.... has anyone switched from HCG & T shots to straight ED HCG shots?

My doc who's done a great job wants to try this but I'd heard some horror stories on this. My T level is top of range and i feel great / am doing great in the gym. I don't want to crash in trying this.

Anyone have any input

Thanks
Bob
 
bobbyn said:
Hey Guys

Have a question.... has anyone switched from HCG & T shots to straight ED HCG shots?

My doc who's done a great job wants to try this but I'd heard some horror stories on this. My T level is top of range and i feel great / am doing great in the gym. I don't want to crash in trying this.

Anyone have any input

Thanks
Bob
Click to expand...

Is your doctor an "anti-aging" doc or more within traditional medicine?

I have not heard of this before and wonder the reason behind him wanting to try.

hCG usually only get your levels so high plus, if you have to increase dose to compensate for the lost T, don't you run the risk of desensitization?
 
hey rick

my dr is a well known anti aging dr.....i think he may want to get away from providing t and hgh.....but that's only my idea.

as far as desensitization......i don't know.....but i have enough of that now.

thanks
bob
 
bobbyn said:
Hey Guys

Have a question.... has anyone switched from HCG & T shots to straight ED HCG shots?

My doc who's done a great job wants to try this but I'd heard some horror stories on this. My T level is top of range and i feel great / am doing great in the gym. I don't want to crash in trying this.

Anyone have any input

Thanks
Bob
Click to expand...

Hi Bob;
I am doing 380iu HCG EOD, every other day.

This is after I read the tudy and did my calculations based on that study.

Short version.
Per that study one needs 306iu EOD
to get 100% of inertesticular testosterone.
I just added 10% myself and got 380iu
Hoping it is not too much.

Look at my post #62 here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-3.html

There is reference to that study and my little calculation.
==============================================

I am assuming that,
if the inertesticular testosterone is at 100% one gets from his testis as much as they are able to produce.

Do not know about your testis, but mine are for decoration only.
==============================================
I am not sure how much extra one would get from ED, every day hcg shots, instedad of EOD, but for long range I would not go over 150iu every day.
==============================================
Some docs have a research papers to write, conferences to attend, they need variety of experiences, keep that in mind.

You are finally feeling great, keep that in mind also. (congratulations)

Do not post your doc's name, no need to get personal.
===============================================================================

Check if you get a benefit of all the food that you put in your mouth.
Check your stomach acids and zinc.
read this:
Invalid Link Removed
 
rick055 said:
Is your doctor an "anti-aging" doc or more within traditional medicine?

I have not heard of this before and wonder the reason behind him wanting to try.

hCG usually only get your levels so high plus, if you have to increase dose to compensate for the lost T, don't you run the risk of desensitization?
Click to expand...

I am on HCG only therapy. A few years ago I was using test and made the switch to HCG under the recommendation of a new physician. My baseline total prior to TRT was around 475 with relatively low free levels and normal E2. After one year of testosterone therapy (without HCG) my baseline total dropped to 97 total. My new doctor took an aggressive approach in dealing with this. The first six weeks I dosed 5000 IUs twice per week and then reduced to 4,000 IUs twice per week over the next eight months. The last two months I reduced my dose to 2000IUs two times per week and added Arimidex to combat rising estrogen levels. During that year my total test never dipped below 1100 (1400 was the highest) and free test never dipped below 260 (425 was the highest). I loved the feeling; it was like being a kid again. I put on a lot of muscle mass, my thinking was clear and libido was through the roof.

I had spent a lot of time in this forum reading negative opinions about this kind of therapy. I was spooked and decided to ween myself off. During the following 8 or so months I tried natural alternatives, but tests showed that nothing worked. My total baseline returned to pretty much the same level it was three years ago (468). Last month I decided to get back on HCG. This time I started with 1000 IUs twice per week. After six weeks I drew blood. My total was 954 with free at 233 and estradiol at 21. I'm drawing for a more comprehensive panel in March.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I am on HCG only therapy. A few years ago I was using test and made the switch to HCG under the recommendation of a new physician. My baseline total prior to TRT was around 475 with relatively low free levels and normal E2. After one year of testosterone therapy (without HCG) my baseline total dropped to 97 total. My new doctor took an aggressive approach in dealing with this. The first six weeks I dosed 5000 IUs twice per week and then reduced to 4,000 IUs twice per week over the next eight months. The last two months I reduced my dose to 2000IUs two times per week and added Arimidex to combat rising estrogen levels. During that year my total test never dipped below 1100 (1400 was the highest) and free test never dipped below 260 (425 was the highest). I loved the feeling; it was like being a kid again. I put on a lot of muscle mass, my thinking was clear and libido was through the roof.

I had spent a lot of time in this forum reading negative opinions about this kind of therapy. I was spooked and decided to ween myself off. During the following 8 or so months I tried natural alternatives, but tests showed that nothing worked. My total baseline returned to pretty much the same level it was three years ago (468). Last month I decided to get back on HCG. This time I started with 1000 IUs twice per week. After six weeks I drew blood. My total was 954 with free at 233 and estradiol at 21. I'm drawing for a more comprehensive panel in March.
Click to expand...

Wonder how you can explain this?

There is Anyman, he pumps large amounts of injected testosterone and nothing shows on his blood test.

Possibly your approach may be helpful to him.
 
I'm in a meeting now and have to re-read all of this but colkurtz numbers on hcg alone are impressive.

Get back to you guys later.

Jan...thanks for the links. I have assitional blood sugar info to share with you later

Bob
 
JanSz said:
Wonder how you can explain this?

There is Anyman, he pumps large amounts of injected testosterone and nothing shows on his blood test.

Possibly your approach may be helpful to him.
Click to expand...

It's hard to say. Not everyone responds that well to HCG. My baseline LH is around 3.3. Although that falls within the normal range it doesn't give me adequate free test. This stuff is too complex for me to figure out. My doctor wasn't sure that I would respond well to the therapy, and thought I might need to include test. I guess I was lucky. It would probably be a good idea for anyone who is secondary to first give HCG a try. I can't vouch for the protocols I've read here. My method has been twice a week, and in higher doses - much higher to start with. Of course we are humans, not machines. We don't respond uniformly to medicine.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I am on HCG only therapy. A few years ago I was using test and made the switch to HCG under the recommendation of a new physician. My baseline total prior to TRT was around 475 with relatively low free levels and normal E2. After one year of testosterone therapy (without HCG) my baseline total dropped to 97 total. My new doctor took an aggressive approach in dealing with this. The first six weeks I dosed 5000 IUs twice per week and then reduced to 4,000 IUs twice per week over the next eight months. The last two months I reduced my dose to 2000IUs two times per week and added Arimidex to combat rising estrogen levels. During that year my total test never dipped below 1100 (1400 was the highest) and free test never dipped below 260 (425 was the highest). I loved the feeling; it was like being a kid again. I put on a lot of muscle mass, my thinking was clear and libido was through the roof.

I had spent a lot of time in this forum reading negative opinions about this kind of therapy. I was spooked and decided to ween myself off. During the following 8 or so months I tried natural alternatives, but tests showed that nothing worked. My total baseline returned to pretty much the same level it was three years ago (468). Last month I decided to get back on HCG. This time I started with 1000 IUs twice per week. After six weeks I drew blood. My total was 954 with free at 233 and estradiol at 21. I'm drawing for a more comprehensive panel in March.
Click to expand...


Thank you for sharing your story - I don't think I've ever heard anyone responding that well to hCG monotherapy.

What did you read that spooked you? Was it the testicular desensitization thing?
 
colkurtz_spf said:
I am on HCG only therapy. A few years ago I was using test and made the switch to HCG under the recommendation of a new physician. My baseline total prior to TRT was around 475 with relatively low free levels and normal E2. After one year of testosterone therapy (without HCG) my baseline total dropped to 97 total. My new doctor took an aggressive approach in dealing with this. The first six weeks I dosed 5000 IUs twice per week and then reduced to 4,000 IUs twice per week over the next eight months. The last two months I reduced my dose to 2000IUs two times per week and added Arimidex to combat rising estrogen levels. During that year my total test never dipped below 1100 (1400 was the highest) and free test never dipped below 260 (425 was the highest). I loved the feeling; it was like being a kid again. I put on a lot of muscle mass, my thinking was clear and libido was through the roof.

I had spent a lot of time in this forum reading negative opinions about this kind of therapy. I was spooked and decided to ween myself off. During the following 8 or so months I tried natural alternatives, but tests showed that nothing worked. My total baseline returned to pretty much the same level it was three years ago (468). Last month I decided to get back on HCG. This time I started with 1000 IUs twice per week. After six weeks I drew blood. My total was 954 with free at 233 and estradiol at 21. I'm drawing for atedt more comprehensive panel in March.
Click to expand...

I started HCG only therapy about 3 months ago. When I started my total test was in the low 300's. Today it is almost 700. I am doing 600iu EOD. My doctor wants my total test to be 900-1000 to get my free T in the 200 range. It's yet to be seen if this will be accomplished on HCG alone but with the progress I've made so far I think it is feasible to see a result like colkurz saw. Maybe HCG just works better on the 50 year old geezer crowd!
 
This is actually great news given all the horror stories which speak to risking leydig cell desensitization from high doses of HCG. I too have read about these high-dose HCG protocols actually raising leydig cell sensitivity over time.
I'm attempting a HPTA restart without much in the way of success (IGF-1 and HCG) and may consider raising the amounts (if i can get some more HCG which may be problematic).

The good news is that maybe i haven't fried my nuts after all and perhaps there is in fact some logic to 'shocking' the testes back into action -- at least for some.
 
I too tried massive mounts of hcg. Only got me to 525 or so.

JanSz said:
Wonder how you can explain this?

There is Anyman, he pumps large amounts of injected testosterone and nothing shows on his blood test.

Possibly your approach may be helpful to him.
Click to expand...

Thanks for suggesting this, Jan. Dr. S had me up to escalate up to 4500 of hcg for a few weeks to see what would happen. Took me up to all of 525--and with an E level of 75 (ugh...)
 
Anyman...interesting see that dr. john actually considered providing HCG in these amounts. I'm just wondering after having read the above postings if that was long enough.

In other words, if after a few more weeks...would your T levels have possibly reached 600? and after a few more months...maybe 800?

I know this is so counter to what has been purported by several in recent years but if test steadily climbs no matter how slowly (even in the light of high HCG dosages), could one not at least consider the possiblity that leydig cell sensitivity is actually rising??

Just a question -- this whole thing makes me nervous too given the other camp and more traditional one of late that states the opposite (i.e., LC desensitization due to high HCG dosages).
 
The conventional wisdom is that too much hcg does degrade the leydig cells.

Ozzie said:
Anyman...interesting see that dr. john actually considered providing HCG in these amounts. I'm just wondering after having read the above postings if that was long enough.

In other words, if after a few more weeks...would your T levels have possibly reached 600? and after a few more months...maybe 800?

I know this is so counter to what has been purported by several in recent years but if test steadily climbs no matter how slowly (even in the light of high HCG dosages), could one not at least consider the possiblity that leydig cell sensitivity is actually rising??

Just a question -- this whole thing makes me nervous too given the other camp and more traditional one of late that states the opposite (i.e., LC desensitization due to high HCG dosages).
Click to expand...

I am no Dr., but I have heard/read this many times. Wouldn't have mattered to me, however, as 4500 units/week did get me to 525 or so-but with an estrogen reading of 75 (ouch!). Adding even more would not have helped. BTW, my Dr is not Dr J. I may still see him, but need to give my current guy time to work his theory.
 
Fair enough and best of luck on your journey. I'm just relieved to read once again that perhaps high doses of HCG aren't as grave a risk as purported by some.
 
rick055 said:
Thank you for sharing your story - I don't think I've ever heard anyone responding that well to hCG monotherapy.

What did you read that spooked you? Was it the testicular desensitization thing?
Click to expand...

Yes, it was the possibility of desensitization. I read the material used to argue that case and found nothing conclusive. However, the fact it was the consensus (in this neighborhood) gave me the jitters.
 
OldGator said:
I started HCG only therapy about 3 months ago. When I started my total test was in the low 300's. Today it is almost 700. I am doing 600iu EOD. My doctor wants my total test to be 900-1000 to get my free T in the 200 range. It's yet to be seen if this will be accomplished on HCG alone but with the progress I've made so far I think it is feasible to see a result like colkurz saw. Maybe HCG just works better on the 50 year old geezer crowd!
Click to expand...

In the circles I travel 50 is young. Young people usually respond better to HCG. 600 EOD would be equivalent to 1800 per week...no?
 
No arimidex. My Dr (shippen) apparently does not like it.

colkurtz_spf said:
Were you on Arimidex too?
Click to expand...

I would have asked about it, but at the time was unaware of. Have subsequently learned that he doesn't much care for it and uses it only as an absolute last resort.
 
anyman said:
I would have asked about it, but at the time was unaware of. Have subsequently learned that he doesn't much care for it and uses it only as an absolute last resort.
Click to expand...

When I lowered HCG doses and included Arimidex to combat estrogen my test levels went up. I should have also mentioned that I take 75mg of DHEA every morning, and when I started back on HCG my doctor had me include 25mg of progesterone at bedtime.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
In the circles I travel 50 is young. Young people usually respond better to HCG. 600 EOD would be equivalent to 1800 per week...no?
Click to expand...

In the circles I travel 50 is, well, 50 - but, like Rick says, we all think we're 30. Except maybe after a skiing weekend with my 39 yo wife and my 3 girls (aged 8, 12, and 19). Then my knees snap me back to the reality of my age. That's where the HCG (boosting my test from 300 to 700) has been great for me. It's helps me keep up with the girls (oh, and my wife - if you know what I mean).
Anyway, yes colkurz, my dose equates to 1800iu a week. You are doing 2000iu per week correct? You seem to be a good HCG responder like myself.
But I have three questions:
1.) Wouldn't it be better to spread your doses out a little more? I do 600iu EOD and you do 1000iu twice a week. The net amount per week is pretty much the same for both of us but isn't it better for the body to get it more even keel?
2.) Are you considering going to 4000iu a week to get from 950 total test to 1100 like you were doing before? You said you felt great at 1100, how do you feel at 950?? Isn't another 2000iu's of HCG/week is a lot more to add to the body to get just another 15% of total test. If you feel good at the 950 you'll just stay there right?
3.) Are you taking Arimidex again while doing the 2000iu per week? I've been able to keep my E in check (20-30) with a low dose of 20mg of Danazol every day and some natural supps like LEF's Breast Health - yeah "Breast" Health (JanSz takes it too). It's a got some great anti-E ingredients but it certainly leaves my wife scratching her head. Me too sometimes.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
When I lowered HCG doses and included Arimidex to combat estrogen my test levels went up. I should have also mentioned that I take 75mg of DHEA every morning, and when I started back on HCG my doctor had me include 25mg of progesterone at bedtime.
Click to expand...

Not to get OT, but did you notice a difference with the progesterone?

That's another "no-no" among many doctors that I wonder about. Some feel it best to use pregnenolone, some of which will convert to progesterone.

I think it is very good at keeping DHT in check.
 
OldGator said:
In the circles I travel 50 is, well, 50 - but, like Rick says, we all think we're 30. Except maybe after a skiing weekend with my 39 yo wife and my 3 girls (aged 8, 12, and 19). Then my knees snap me back to the reality of my age. That's where the HCG (boosting my test from 300 to 700) has been great for me. It's helps me keep up with the girls (oh, and my wife - if you know what I mean).
Anyway, yes colkurz, my dose equates to 1800iu a week. You are doing 2000iu per week correct? You seem to be a good HCG responder like myself.
But I have three questions:
1.) Wouldn't it be better to spread your doses out a little more? I do 600iu EOD and you do 1000iu twice a week. The net amount per week is pretty much the same for both of us but isn't it better for the body to get it more even keel?
2.) Are you considering going to 4000iu a week to get from 950 total test to 1100 like you were doing before? You said you felt great at 1100, how do you feel at 950?? Isn't another 2000iu's of HCG/week is a lot more to add to the body to get just another 15% of total test. If you feel good at the 950 you'll just stay there right?
3.) Are you taking Arimidex again while doing the 2000iu per week? I've been able to keep my E in check (20-30) with a low dose of 20mg of Danazol every day and some natural supps like LEF's Breast Health - yeah "Breast" Health (JanSz takes it too). It's a got some great anti-E ingredients but it certainly leaves my wife scratching her head. Me too sometimes.
Click to expand...

I have three kids close in age - one girl age 9, a boy age 12, another boy age 14 and one girl that is 23, but my wife is only a year younger. I can understand the perspective your wife brings to your life. I also understand joint pain. I train my 14 year old son. He is a middle school center/power forward at 6'2" 180 lbs. I lift much heavier than he does because of his age, but he seems oblivious to the volume of our workouts.

I don't think you can accurately project the results of HCG dosage on total and free test. When I was injecting 10,000 units per week my low total was 1099 and the high was 1199 free ranges were 250 - 300. At 4000 IUs per week and Arimidex my total went to 1406 with free at 425.

My doctor wasn't sure how I would respond after being off 8 plus months and prescribed half the previous dose. The results were more than satisfactory. My goal is to maintain a total over 700 with a free range over 190. My next draw will determine future doses and or the need for Arimidex. I don't know why my doctor prescribes bi-weekly shots. He swears by this method, and it's always worked for me. I don't question him. His credentials are impressive.
 
rick055 said:
Not to get OT, but did you notice a difference with the progesterone?

That's another "no-no" among many doctors that I wonder about. Some feel it best to use pregnenolone, some of which will convert to progesterone.

I think it is very good at keeping DHT in check.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure. It may be why I'm responding better to lower doses. My doctor said a lose dose (25mg) would help.
 
colkurtz_spf said:
My goal is to maintain a total over 700 with a free range over 190. My next draw will determine future doses and or the need for Arimidex. I don't know why my doctor prescribes bi-weekly shots. He swears by this method, and it's always worked for me. I don't question him. His credentials are impressive.
Click to expand...

That's great! That's exactly where I want to be. If it works for you - and obviously it does - that's all that matters.
 
anyman said:
I am no Dr., but I have heard/read this many times. Wouldn't have mattered to me, however, as 4500 units/week did get me to 525 or so-but with an estrogen reading of 75 (ouch!). Adding even more would not have helped. BTW, my Dr is not Dr J. I may still see him, but need to give my current guy time to work his theory.
Click to expand...

Anyman;

wait, wait;

The E2 is made from testosterone.
E1 is made from Testosterone
If you stop that, by using Anastrozole you should end up with

less of E1
correct E2 (because that is what you monitor and adjust)
higher TT

This is your way to go.
Just do not go too crazy on HCG.

Use HCG
Use Anastrozole

Use this tests to see where you are:

Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)

Use for a start some (reasonable) dose of HCG EOD
Use liquid Anastrozole, so you can measure it precisely, (did I say precisely)
use on same day as HCG shots.

Starting dose Anastrozole = 0.35 Arimidex pills

0.35*7/2=1.225 (average Arimidex pills per week)
Latter adjust as per tests, you want to have FreeE2(0.45 - 0.6)
======================================================
To get testis into 100%, per study, one need 309iu HCG EOD
Say you double that dose, should really be enough

your HCG dose=600iu per each shot

that is 600*7/2=2100 iu/week

Remember this, if it works, it is forewer.
 
testodan said:
What were your levels when you had your kids,were you on TRT?
I wonder about my fertility if go back on TRT:confused:
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to say that I don't have a clue. It wasn't until my mid forties that a doctor brought this problem to my attention and showed me the labs. That doesn't necessarily mean that I didn't have it earlier. I had an aversion to doctors, or more likely the bad news they might bestow. I avoided them from the age of 16 until my forties. I only drew blood for my insurance company. I don't know what they were screening for...probably aids.
 
I can not believe everyone got such good responses from solo HCG therapy.. Here is my experience with solo HCG..

Five months ago, after having little luck with Clomid, my Urologist switched me to HCG. Started out at 500 units EOD which raised my TT to 362, (250-1100) free to 57.9 (35.0 - 155.0) but crashed my LH and FSH.. FSH <0.7 (1.6- 8.0)
and LH <0.2 (1.5-9.3). Two months ago, the Uroligist decided to up the HCG to 1000 units ED, Monday thru Friday.. This only raised me up to TT 433 and free 106.5. my LH and FSH are still the same,, below the normal range..

It seems that HCG has caused me to become shut down..

I don't think anything is wrong with my pituatary (sp) gland because Clomid did raise my LH and FSH to the normal ranged, low but normal. But only raised my TT to 255..



























,
 
There's a guy on thislist that tryed it and really ended up in the ****ter....I'm gona call my doc next week and tell him i want to stay on my t shots...

i don't want to take the risk....especially since i'm feeling so good

bob
 
It's to be expected that HCG (an analog of LH) would decrease your natural LH production. You'd expect the T to increase, which it did. As to how much it increases depends on the condition of your testicles and to a lesser extent the dose of HCG.

Mark
 
MarkLA said:
It's to be expected that HCG (an analog of LH) would decrease your natural LH production. You'd expect the T to increase, which it did. As to how much it increases depends on the condition of your testicles and to a lesser extent the dose of HCG.

Mark
Click to expand...

That's right. If your condition is primary HCG won't suffice, nor will clomid. Also, testosterone therapy shuts LH down.
 
Thanks for the reponses

I have always believed that I was primary and tried to tell the doctor that he is trying to stimulate something that was never there. I will be seeing him in a few weeks and will ask him to put me on T shots.. If anything it will be cheaper (no insurance) and less pinning..
 
biker340 said:
Thanks for the reponses

I have always believed that I was primary and tried to tell the doctor that he is trying to stimulate something that was never there. I will be seeing him in a few weeks and will ask him to put me on T shots.. If anything it will be cheaper (no insurance) and less pinning..
Click to expand...
You are primary dude,your doc maybe wanted to stimulate the testes so as to 'liven up'..
 
jcfitzge said:
How and where are you guys injecting the HCG? Stomach, thigh, size needle, etc.

Go Gators!
Click to expand...


Pinch some fat on side of stomach a few inches on either side of your belly button. I tried the thigh but ended up with a couple of hard balls on some injections. The adipose tissue on abs is a breeze. Use thin 31 gauge 5/16" insulin syringe. You won't even feel it.
Yeah - GO GATORS! (Another great Signing Day - should be Top 3 pre-season)
 
I am taken Novarel, they say that it must be injected IM.
I use a 29 gauge 1/2 needle.

I switch between outer thighs and triceps.

the rubber stomper on Noveral is rough on the 28 gauge needles, dulls them.. I can't imagine what it does to a 31 gauge needle...
 
biker340 said:
I am taken Novarel, they say that it must be injected IM.
I use a 29 gauge 1/2 needle.

I switch between outer thighs and triceps.

the rubber stomper on Noveral is rough on the 28 gauge needles, dulls them.. I can't imagine what it does to a 31 gauge needle...
Click to expand...

That is not true.

I am using 31Ga 5/16" needle for Novarel, Depo-testosterone and Methyl-B12.
Since june 19/2007

Poke a rubber stopper, draw, pull back, make injection.

Simple, reliable.

I use good quality needles, possibly that is the answer.

I use

Invalid Link Removed
 
JanSz said:
That is not true.

I am using 31Ga 5/16" needle for Novarel, Depo-testosterone and Methyl-B12.
Since june 19/2007

Poke a rubber stopper, draw, pull back, make injection.

Simple, reliable.

I use good quality needles, possibly that is the answer.

I use

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Where do you inject HCG JanSz. My doctor (well known here) says side of stomach is fine (actually that's where HE injects it). Biker's doc said must be IM. What gives?

Where do you inject the Test? (Right now I'm only doing HCG but I suspect that will change soon to HCG and Test).
 
OldGator said:
Where do you inject HCG JanSz. My doctor (well known here) says side of stomach is fine (actually that's where HE injects it). Biker's doc said must be IM. What gives?

Where do you inject the Test? (Right now I'm only doing HCG but I suspect that will change soon to HCG and Test).
Click to expand...

All three, T, hcg & Methyl-B12 I inject in 6" circle around navel, except navel.

Invalid Link Removed

Search for words: “elephant’s butt”

Explanation why placing shot in the middle of fat is beneficial because it causes more steady blood levels.
This logic and benefits apply to all three, T, HCG & B12.
 
OldGator said:
Me too. I figured it was being absorbed there just fine as the HCG has boosted my test from the low 300's to almost 700.
Click to expand...

I bet that there is a group of people that can do well just on HCG.
Problem is, everybody is trying only small 2x/week injections,
and inject with large long needles into muscles.

With tt=700 you have a good shot at being ok just the way you are.
What is your FreeE2 status?

If you can get to
FreeE2(0.45 - 0.6)
and
FreeT~160
or more
you are good to go.
 
JanSz said:
With tt=700 you have a good shot at being ok just the way you are.
What is your FreeE2 status?
Click to expand...

My estrogens are pretty good. It's my high SHBG that is messing me up - was 55 - now 44 with the addition of Danazol - but as you know 44 is still high. Per Dr. S's chart
my total test would have to be close to 1000 to get me to a Free T of around 200 which is where he (and I) want to be. Right now it's around 120. I probably can't do much more HCG (600iu EOD) because my estradiol nearly doubled (15 to 26) when I went from 500iu to 600iu and my total T only moved up slightly from 600 to 700.

If I could get my SHBG down to 25 or 30 my Free T would be perfect. What else can reduce SHBG?? Any "natural" supps??
 
OldGator said:
My estrogens are pretty good. It's my high SHBG that is messing me up - was 55 - now 44 with the addition of Danazol - but as you know 44 is still high. Per Dr. S's chart
my total test would have to be close to 1000 to get me to a Free T of around 200 which is where he (and I) want to be. Right now it's around 120. I probably can't do much more HCG (600iu EOD) because my estradiol nearly doubled (15 to 26) when I went from 500iu to 600iu and my total T only moved up slightly from 600 to 700.

If I could get my SHBG down to 25 or 30 my Free T would be perfect. What else can reduce SHBG?? Any "natural" supps??
Click to expand...
I do not see much reason of doing anything that I would not do on long term basis.
Hoping to put down pressure on SHBG
I would try to stay closer to lower range on
FreeE2(0.45 - 0.6)
while doing this test at Quest
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)

380iu HCG EOD

You may get good mileage doing Genova

NutrEval

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Dr Marianco
High SHBG is associated with high estrogen states (e.g. with obesity) or low DHEA (e.g. with adrenal fatigue).
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Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone or other androgens can drive SHBG lower.

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What kind side effects have Danazol?
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The following reactions have been reported, a causal relationship to the administration of Danazol has neither been confirmed nor refuted: allergic: urticaria, pruritus and rarely, nasal congestion; CNS effects: headache, nervousness and emotional lability, dizziness and fainting, depression, fatigue, sleep disorders, tremor, paresthesias, weakness, visual disturbances, and rarely, benign intracranial hypertension, anxiety, changes in appetite, chills, and rarely convulsions, Guillain-Barre syndrome; gastrointestinal: gastroenteritis, nausea, vomiting, constipation, and rarely, pancreatitis; musculoskeletal: muscle cramps or spasms, or pains, joint pain, joint lockup, joint swelling, pain in back, neck, or extremities, and rarely, carpal tunnel syndrome which may be secondary to fluid retention; genitourinary: hematuria, prolonged posttherapy amenorrhea; hematologic: an increase in red cell and platelet count. Reversible erythrocytosis, leukocytosis or polycythemia may be provoked. Eosinophilia, leukopenia and thrombocytopenia have also been noted. Skin: rashes (maculopapular, vesicular, papular, purpuric, petechial), and rarely, sun sensitivity, Stevens-Johnson syndrome; other: increased insulin requirements in diabetic patients, change in libido, elevation in blood pressure, and rarely, cataracts, bleeding gums, fever, pelvic pain, nipple discharge. Malignant liver tumors have been reported in rare instances, after long-term use.
 
JanSz said:
High SHBG is associated with high estrogen states (e.g. with obesity) or low DHEA (e.g. with adrenal fatigue).

What kind side effects have Danazol?
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Good info, thanks. Yes, actually my DHEA-S is below Quest normal range and I just started PP's transdermal Dermacrine so we'll see what happens with that. I had been using LEF's DHEA Complete (oral capsule) for about 2 years but my DHEA remained low. I'm hoping PP's transdermal will change that.

My Danazol dosage is very low - 20mg ED - so I haven't experienced any side effects.
 
OldGator said:
Where do you inject HCG JanSz. My doctor (well known here) says side of stomach is fine (actually that's where HE injects it). Biker's doc said must be IM. What gives?

Where do you inject the Test? (Right now I'm only doing HCG but I suspect that will change soon to HCG and Test).
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I was instructed to do IM injections by my doctor.
It says on the box of Novarel,, For IM injections only.

With all medications, I don't like to go against the instuctions.
 
jcfitzge said:
Old,

Was the dermocrine suggested by your Dr?
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Doc just suggested supplementation, no particular brand. From reading the boards here I just think PP's Dermacrine got the best reviews. It also has other "goodies" like resveratrol. And, most important from the DHEA standpoint IMO, it's a transdermal. Orals didn't really move my DHEA numbers. Keep in mind some people here don't get excited about DHEA for a number of reasons. For us 50+ generation, I think it's fine.
 
How is working for you??

Both Reservatrol and DHEA work best as a transdermal.

I am taking both orally and don't seem to get much from it..
 
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