HCG or Clomid DURING Test E + Tbol cycle

rtmilburn

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During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels
 

Peanutbutterj

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Hey guys,

I ordered all my ancilaries/ gear/ pct supps and am ready to go. Only thing im confused about is what i should use to support test production on cycle.

I saw the “Serm on cycle” thread recently and it had fairly positive feedback. It seems both hcg and serms stimulate lh and fsh to produce test? Is one better than the other? I know hcg is the conventional route but is there any disadvantage to using clomid?

Any insight/ thoughts are appreciated.
I would use HCG because it’s tried and true, then follow up with a SERM afterward.

The main disadvantage I see for using the SERM instead of HCG on cycle is that HCG is proven (time tested and studies) and the SERM on cycle seems relatively new and novel (not saying it won’t work, but I can’t vouch for it because I have no experience doing it).

I typically tend to give out conservative and passive advice (better safe than sorry, it’s the father in me).

In the future I may try the SERM on cycle though.
 
Kratom267

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Ive heard that Nolva can cause liver stress and potential damage, which is why its not recommended to use any longer than necessary for PCT and not during cycle...does anyone know if that is also true about Torem? Was planning on running 30mg Torem during my upcoming cycle of DMZ...
 
rtmilburn

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I would use HCG because it’s tried and true, then follow up with a SERM afterward.

The main disadvantage I see for using the SERM instead of HCG on cycle is that HCG is proven (time tested and studies) and the SERM on cycle seems relatively new and novel (not saying it won’t work, but I can’t vouch for it because I have no experience doing it).

I typically tend to give out conservative and passive advice (better safe than sorry, it’s the father in me).

In the future I may try the SERM on cycle though.
Its actually not new at all. Late 70s through early 80s a serm on cycle was standard protocol. It wasnt until later, when AIs became standard on cycle, that this stopped being the case. I bet this is part of the reason why people werent losing significant amount of muscle post cylce, even though PCT wasnt even really a thing.
 
Kratom267

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So you can supposedly keep gains easier after your cycle is done if you use a SERM DURING the cycle and PCT?
 
rtmilburn

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So you can supposedly keep gains easier after your cycle is done if you use a SERM DURING the cycle and PCT?
Possibly. Keeping "gains" can be a complicated thing. Even though maintaining/restoration of endogenous testosterone quickly is crucial for maintaining "gains", its is not even close to being the only factor. There is so much at play here to say for sure you will keep more gains. However, i would be pretty confident in saying that would more than likely be the case.
 

CatSnake

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During chronic clomiphene therapy, neither T nor E when given in doses equal to twice their mean production rate in normal men, nor the nonaromatizable androgens, dihydrotestosterone and fluoxymesterone, in dosages equipotent to the infused T were capable of suppressing serum LH or FSH levels
dude, that's a 4 DAY study where it doesn't even list the dosage used of clomid. hardly something one can say proves any theory....

the other study you cite uses 100 mg/day of clomid, which is absolutely not a dose anybody is gonna take for an extended period of time. and also a 4 DAY study....
 
rtmilburn

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dude, that's a 4 DAY study where it doesn't even list the dosage used of clomid. hardly something one can say proves any theory....

the other study you cite uses 100 mg/day of clomid, which is absolutely not a dose anybody is gonna take for an extended period of time. and also a 4 DAY study....
You didnt read the study did you?
 

CatSnake

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What i posted only had abstracts. The whole study cannot be accessed from the link i posted.
good stuff.

yes, I read what you posted before. your current links are bad (bad pathway to link)


4 days does not PROVE that this theory is sound by any stretch of the imagination.


it only shows that it MIGHT work.... meanwhile taking an additional compound that will cause additional side effects and reduce total gains on cycle, with no real likelihood of increasing HPTA recovery post cycle.
 
BloodManor

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Clomid is cheap so if it does help it would be awesome. Maybe I should try it

In for more thoughts
 
rtmilburn

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good stuff.

yes, I read what you posted before. your current links are bad (bad pathway to link)


4 days does not PROVE that this theory is sound by any stretch of the imagination.


it only shows that it MIGHT work.... meanwhile taking an additional compound that will cause additional side effects and reduce total gains on cycle, with no real likelihood of increasing HPTA recovery post cycle.
The studies test further out than 4 days and used other doses then just 100mg. You clearly only read the abstracts. Read the full study then you can make your assertions.
 

CatSnake

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Clomid is cheap so if it does help it would be awesome. Maybe I should try it

In for more thoughts
my questions on adding in any compound on cycle are these:

-does it make the cycle better?
-is it going to cause more side effects?


^clomid isn't going to increase gains on cycle, but it will increase side effects.

-will it make HPTA recovery better?

I dunno.... clomid works pretty darn good by itself in PCT, so this question is-do you even need it? seriously, who needs to take a SERM an extra 10 weeks if they do a well planned cycle and PCT in the first place?
 

CatSnake

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The studies test further out than 4 days and used other doses then just 100mg. You clearly only read the abstracts. Read the full study then you can make your assertions.
then post the full study!

jesus, you're the one making the grand claims here.... back it up instead of requiring everyone else to "look into" your theory!
 
rtmilburn

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then post the full study!

jesus, you're the one making the grand claims here.... back it up instead of requiring everyone else to "look into" your theory!
I cannot do so. You would have to have paid access to medical databases to have access to them, from where i get them. So even if i were to post a link from where i read it, you couldn't access it. Now if you have access to a database just copy the tittle of the study into the search function and you will have it.
 

CatSnake

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I cannot do so. You would have to have paid access to medical databases to have access to them, from where i get them. So even if i were to post a link from where i read it, you couldn't access it. Now if you have access to a database just copy the tittle of the study into the search function and you will have it.
the only thing I can find further on that study (without pyaing for it) as a reference elsewhere that the dose used was 100 mg/day of clomid.

which like I mentioned before, is not a realistic long term dose due to side effects and decreased response to LH.


"Wow...

So I apologize to everyone in this thread. It appears that Prisoner was lying about this information or was severely misinformed.

I actually bought the paper (cost me 35 damn bucks).

Turns out... they used 100 mg clomid, not 25 (as he said) and they only injected testosterone 15 mg a day for 4 days, not weeks upon weeks. Add in the fact that they used bioidentical testosterone (with a half life of only 30 MINUTES), not T Cyp like Prisoner said, and you sure have a recipe for disaster. There simply is no way this would work for a "cycle".

Good thing I didn't try this hairbrained scheme. I knew a "theory" usually collapses upon closer research [:eek:)]."

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/a-no-suppression-cycle-using-clomid.134322582/
 

CatSnake

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the only thing I can find further on that study (without pyaing for it) as a reference elsewhere that the dose used was 100 mg/day of clomid.

which like I mentioned before, is not a realistic long term dose due to side effects and decreased response to LH.


"Wow...

So I apologize to everyone in this thread. It appears that Prisoner was lying about this information or was severely misinformed.

I actually bought the paper (cost me 35 damn bucks).

Turns out... they used 100 mg clomid, not 25 (as he said) and they only injected testosterone 15 mg a day for 4 days, not weeks upon weeks. Add in the fact that they used bioidentical testosterone (with a half life of only 30 MINUTES), not T Cyp like Prisoner said, and you sure have a recipe for disaster. There simply is no way this would work for a "cycle".

Good thing I didn't try this hairbrained scheme. I knew a "theory" usually collapses upon closer research [:eek:)]."

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/a-no-suppression-cycle-using-clomid.134322582/
study showing why high doses of clomid are counterproductive:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052



most studies on clomid used 25 mg/day and showed the great results. anecdotally, most guys here do not see significant sides above 25 mg/day, either.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html
 
RickyBlobby

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If you wanna get shut down on cycle, wait till PCT to add your SERM. Simple as that.
 

BroBrian

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Would there be any drawback to using both hcg and clomid on cycle?
 

CatSnake

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Would there be any drawback to using both hcg and clomid on cycle?
Yeah. Clomid will raise SHBG, E2 and lower IGF1. Clomid and nolva have been known to cause ocular side effects, and most of the SERMS have been known to cause thrombosis, I believe.

EDIT: also, Tore and Nolva can be tough on the liver.


HCg will raise E2.


Side note: I don't know of many guys who have had positive body composition changes while on a SERM, either. Not sure if thats from the above listed issues or from actual activation of the ErB in bodyfat...
 
rtmilburn

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Yeah. Clomid will raise SHBG, E2 and lower IGF1. Clomid and nolva have been known to cause ocular side effects, and most of the SERMS have been known to cause thrombosis, I believe.

HCg will raise E2.

Side note: I don't know of many guys who have had positive body composition changes while on a SERM, either. Not sure if thats from the above listed issues or from actual activation of the ErB in bodyfat...
This is all true. Igf-1 reduction is pretty significant with clomid, but less than with nolva. Although im not sure about your statement about activation of ErB, with a serm, preventing weightloss. I know there are natural compounds that activate ErB that promote fat-loss. However, this may be do to having a weaker activation of ErB than estrogen.
 

benjamfzb

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Sooo don't do both clomid and hcg? I typically only did clomid on 8 weekers and liked it. I got hcg for a 12 weeker and clomid....
 

BBiceps

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Sooo don't do both clomid and hcg? I typically only did clomid on 8 weekers and liked it. I got hcg for a 12 weeker and clomid....
Don’t bother, do HCG during cycle and Clomid for PCT. I did Clomid with my Anavar cycle and my test was 43 in my 7th week...
 
Smont

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Don’t bother, do HCG during cycle and Clomid for PCT. I did Clomid with my Anavar cycle and my test was 43 in my 7th week...
If you just wait till the end of your cycle to do the hcg you will get the same recovery and less hormone spikes on your cycle. The only benefit to on cycle hcg is testicle size. Your not going to keep your natural production going while on any decent amount of gear and your basically just turning your body on and off like a light switch.
 

benjamfzb

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If you just wait till the end of your cycle to do the hcg you will get the same recovery and less hormone spikes on your cycle. The only benefit to on cycle hcg is testicle size. Your not going to keep your natural production going while on any decent amount of gear and your basically just turning your body on and off like a light switch.
Yeah, i really dont enjoy my balls almost coming inside me after i finally cum on cycle.

I found the clomid helped with size a bit. But numbers dont lie. Seems theres no point doing both and hcg js best.
 
Smont

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Yeah, i really dont enjoy my balls almost coming inside me after i finally cum on cycle.

I found the clomid helped with size a bit. But numbers dont lie. Seems theres no point doing both and hcg js best.
I get no shrinking on gear, at least not noticable so I got no use for the hcg on cycle
 

benjamfzb

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I get no shrinking on gear, at least not noticable so I got no use for the hcg on cycle
Lucky. They always come back its just annoying. But then again im a bit different. Few surgeries down there at birth for hernias and stuff.
 

jtbull

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Seems that lots of guys back in the day would use a bit of nolva during their cycle, but supposedly it can cut into the effectiness while now they use adex or aromisin if needed. Seems many take it that dont need it. Hell my trt doctor had me on 1mg arimidex every day and that was way too much and crashed my estrogen. I went to 1mg 3x a week and that was still too much then i went to .5 3x aweek and that was so so now im on .5 twice a week and my next cruise i will probably totally drop it unless i get puffy nipples or something. Seems most of the stuff you mentioned is more for PCT although i have heard of HCG used during cycle.
 
Smont

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Seems that lots of guys back in the day would use a bit of nolva during their cycle, but supposedly it can cut into the effectiness while now they use adex or aromisin if needed. Seems many take it that dont need it. Hell my trt doctor had me on 1mg arimidex every day and that was way too much and crashed my estrogen. I went to 1mg 3x a week and that was still too much then i went to .5 3x aweek and that was so so now im on .5 twice a week and my next cruise i will probably totally drop it unless i get puffy nipples or something. Seems most of the stuff you mentioned is more for PCT although i have heard of HCG used during cycle.
On the forums you see guys not using nolva on cycle and using a ai. But outside the forums, all the big guys I know and guys who been doing this for 20+ years still use nolva on cycle and mainly to block estrogen at the nipples, not to keep testosterone production and I think that is what this thread is about. Trying to maintain test production on cycles is rediculous. Depending on how much they run they will use a ai too. Rolox seems to be taking the place of nolva for some but others swear they do the same thing and rolox is just more expensive.
 

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