HCG or Clomid DURING Test E + Tbol cycle

Davy25

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Hey guys,

I ordered all my ancilaries/ gear/ pct supps and am ready to go. Only thing im confused about is what i should use to support test production on cycle.

I saw the “Serm on cycle” thread recently and it had fairly positive feedback. It seems both hcg and serms stimulate lh and fsh to produce test? Is one better than the other? I know hcg is the conventional route but is there any disadvantage to using clomid?

Any insight/ thoughts are appreciated.
 

GettinSwolen

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I read through every single post of that "Serm on cycle" thread, not one posted blood results of it working. I am not saying it wouldn't work but if you have the HCG on hand already I would just go with the tried and true. I am doing the same exact cycle as you in a couple months and that is my plan anyway.
 
Davy25

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I read through every single post of that "Serm on cycle" thread, not one posted blood results of it working. I am not saying it wouldn't work but if you have the HCG on hand already I would just go with the tried and true. I am doing the same exact cycle as you in a couple months and that is my plan anyway.
Agreed. I dont have hcg on hand but id rather avoid additional pinning and buying slin needles if i can just use clomid. In theory a serm seems like it would be great but i guess hcg has studies backed behind it
 
brofessorx

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Agreed. I dont have hcg on hand but id rather avoid additional pinning and buying slin needles if i can just use clomid. In theory a serm seems like it would be great but i guess hcg has studies backed behind it
You don’t need insulin syringes to pin hcg, or even insulin. You can use any syringe/needle size of your preference.

I use 1/2” 25g needles for everything.

But for experimenting I’d say do the clomid for a nice 12 week cycle of 500mg test each week and let us know how it goes!
The worst that could happen is pct sucks and you loose all your gains, but on the flip side, pct could be a breeze and you continue to make gains!
It’s a 50/50 shot
 
Smont

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I read through every single post of that "Serm on cycle" thread, not one posted blood results of it working. I am not saying it wouldn't work but if you have the HCG on hand already I would just go with the tried and true. I am doing the same exact cycle as you in a couple months and that is my plan anyway.
Yep, tons of ppl in that thred threw around things like so and so confirmed or proved blah blah blah, but at the end of the day there was zero proof in the thread. All you can do with that is take the word of someone behind a keyboard you have never met and dont know weather or not they actually did anything they said.
 
brofessorx

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All you can do with that is take the word of someone behind a keyboard you have never met and dont know weather or not they actually did anything they said.
Bro, I injected 500mcg of methyl tren for 8 weeks with only milk thistle for my supports and was fine. I’m so swole. I’d post pix but my internet isn’t working.
 
brofessorx

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*as a side note, I feel I should say I did not use methyl tren. It’s one of the few steroids to cause irreversible damage to the liver.
 
Smont

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*as a side note, I feel I should say I did not use methyl tren. It’s one of the few steroids to cause irreversible damage to the liver.
I assumed that. I wouldnt suggest any1 use it
 
RickyBlobby

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I been on TRT and had shrunk nuts for 2 years. 2 weeks ago I started clomid to jump start my system and I’m gonna quote my wife “you have nuts again”

This is on 100mg of test, 20mg of LGD-4033 and 20mg of S23.

There are 3 studies posted in the “clomid during cycle” thread backing up what I say.

On the other hand, you have people with no experience in the method using broscience to justify their beliefs.

Use your brain.
 
Kratom267

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*as a side note, I feel I should say I did not use methyl tren. It’s one of the few steroids to cause irreversible damage to the liver.
Any link to proof of this? And do you mean compounds like "Trenavar", etc?
 
Smont

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Any link to proof of this? And do you mean compounds like "Trenavar", etc?
No, methyl tren is a specific steroid, its the most toxic steriod there is as far as im aware of. Its nothing like the tren prohormones
 
Davy25

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Yep, tons of ppl in that thred threw around things like so and so confirmed or proved blah blah blah, but at the end of the day there was zero proof in the thread. All you can do with that is take the word of someone behind a keyboard you have never met and dont know weather or not they actually did anything they said.
Im fine with injecting test into the glute but i want to avoid the hcg injection... something about injecting into stomach just messes with me. Any reason clomid or nolva could causes problems while using on cycle?
 
RickyBlobby

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Yep, tons of ppl in that thred threw around things like so and so confirmed or proved blah blah blah, but at the end of the day there was zero proof in the thread. All you can do with that is take the word of someone behind a keyboard you have never met and dont know weather or not they actually did anything they said.
There are 3 studies confirming the topic. I had blood work. 450 test ON cycle. Spurfy has blood work. Normal LH and FSH. Many reported no testicular atrophy. It’s undeniable.
 
Toren

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Im fine with injecting test into the glute but i want to avoid the hcg injection... something about injecting into stomach just messes with me. Any reason clomid or nolva could causes problems while using on cycle?
Injecting a few units of HCG/bac. water into the stomach fat is as easy as it gets. No pain, no swollen lumps. A 28/29g slin pin is almost invisible....
 
Kratom267

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There are 3 studies confirming the topic. I had blood work. 450 test ON cycle. Spurfy has blood work. Normal LH and FSH. Many reported no testicular atrophy. It’s undeniable.
450 on cycle?! Damn! What was the cycle you ran for that (roid dosage and serm dosage)?
 
rtmilburn

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I read through every single post of that "Serm on cycle" thread, not one posted blood results of it working. I am not saying it wouldn't work but if you have the HCG on hand already I would just go with the tried and true. I am doing the same exact cycle as you in a couple months and that is my plan anyway.
I posted studies
 
rtmilburn

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Yep, tons of ppl in that thred threw around things like so and so confirmed or proved blah blah blah, but at the end of the day there was zero proof in the thread. All you can do with that is take the word of someone behind a keyboard you have never met and dont know weather or not they actually did anything they said.
Read again i posted studies. Well rickyblobby reposted studies i posted
 
Smont

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There are 3 studies confirming the topic. I had blood work. 450 test ON cycle. Spurfy has blood work. Normal LH and FSH. Many reported no testicular atrophy. It’s undeniable.
I know all about the studies, im talking about all the members on anabolic minds that constantly talk about there bloodwork but whenever someone asks if they can see the bloods they refuse to show it. It takes less time to post a pic then it does to type a sentence or 2
 
Smont

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Read again i posted studies. Well rickyblobby reposted studies i posted
Once again im not talking about tje studies, ive read them. Im talking about ppl who say they tried tjis method with bloodwork but wont show it
 
rtmilburn

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Once again im not talking about tje studies, ive read them. Im talking about ppl who say they tried tjis method with bloodwork but wont show it
Ok same goes with hcg. Hell even with hcg you have no idea if the bloodwork is legit. As hcg doesnt increase anything other than testosterone. So you see bloodwork with hcg, how do you know he didnt just up his test injection. Seriously this is all hearsay, and how many people actually do bloodwork on cycle. Not many thats forsure. Plus hcg is fuking hard to source anything with any potency.
 
Smont

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Ok same goes with hcg. Hell even with hcg you have no idea if the bloodwork is legit. As hcg doesnt increase anything other than testosterone. So you see bloodwork with hcg, how do you know he didnt just up his test injection. Seriously this is all hearsay, and how many people actually do bloodwork on cycle. Not many thats forsure. Plus hcg is fuking hard to source anything with any potency.
Your missing my point. Ive seen so many ppl say i did this or that and i got bloods to prove it. But when we ask to see them they wont show them. Why even say they have them and refuse to show? Im over it, its beating a dead horse
 
rtmilburn

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Your missing my point. Ive seen so many ppl say i did this or that and i got bloods to prove it. But when we ask to see them they wont show them. Why even say they have them and refuse to show? Im over it, its beating a dead horse
Ok i can agree with you here.
 
RickyBlobby

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Yep, tons of ppl in that thred threw around things like so and so confirmed or proved blah blah blah, but at the end of the day there was zero proof in the thread. All you can do with that is take the word of someone behind a keyboard you have never met and dont know weather or not they actually did anything they said.
There are 3 studies confirming the topic. I had blood work. 450 test ON cycle. Spurfy has blood work. Normal LH and FSH. Many reported no testicular atrophy. It’s undeniable.
 
RickyBlobby

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Your missing my point. Ive seen so many ppl say i did this or that and i got bloods to prove it. But when we ask to see them they wont show them. Why even say they have them and refuse to show? Im over it, its beating a dead horse
What about the pubmed studies? That not good enough for you either?
 
Smont

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What about the pubmed studies? That not good enough for you either?
Its got nothing to do with something not being good enough. Its about constantly having ppl say they got bloods but refuse to show them for whatever reason . Idk whats so hard to understand about what im saying
 
RickyBlobby

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450 on cycle?! Damn! What was the cycle you ran for that (roid dosage and serm dosage)?
50 mg dbol and 400mg primo for 10 weeks. Clomid at only 25mg/ day.

On trt now, testicles have been atrophied for over a year. Started clomid 2 weeks ago at only 20mg a day and my nuts are almost full size. That is proof that my pituitary gland is producing sufficient levels of LH and FSH. I am also on 40mg of SARMS.
 
Smont

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Not even just related to this topic. This entire community is full of ppl who say i got bloods to prove whatever the topic may be but refuse to post them l
 

CatSnake

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Hey guys,

I ordered all my ancilaries/ gear/ pct supps and am ready to go. Only thing im confused about is what i should use to support test production on cycle.

I saw the “Serm on cycle” thread recently and it had fairly positive feedback. It seems both hcg and serms stimulate lh and fsh to produce test? Is one better than the other? I know hcg is the conventional route but is there any disadvantage to using clomid?

Any insight/ thoughts are appreciated.
I would go with HCG on cycle and the SERM for PCT.

I recently added some nolva for gyno (I'm on TRT) and saw NO change in LH/FSH levels. none.

I also know of several guys who tried clomid and nolva years ago prior to various cycles, and never saw LH/FSH levels maintained. in fact, they showed total suppression....


but, plenty of people are making some bold claims on that thread with no clinical or anecdotal evidence, so take that for what it's worth......




.
 

CatSnake

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There are 3 studies confirming the topic. I had blood work. 450 test ON cycle. Spurfy has blood work. Normal LH and FSH. Many reported no testicular atrophy. It’s undeniable.
the only applicable study was a 4 day clomid study where they used 100 mg /day of clomid while taking 25 mg/day of test prop. NOBODY is gonna take clomid at that high of a dose for long, due to the side effects.... and that dose of prop is actually less that most guys' TRT doses.

^meanwhile, when I pointed out that EVERYBODY on that thread was wrong about tore not reducing IGF1 levels, people started making excuses as to why that didn't matter....

cherry pick the studies if you want, but at least use data that uses applicable doses for what one would expect for real-world results.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html


http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/297449-info-hcg.html#post5870442



.
 
brofessorx

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Posting ones blood work is easy:
So got my yearly physical today and had my blood work done. I’ll still need to back in 3 months for vit d re check ( it was low) an I’ll get hormones done then.
So 09 blood work was following a few cycles, and fast forward experimenting, testing, using for personal gains, and finally just cruising, almost 10 years later I’m okay with the results.
The first I’d say 5 years of my usage was entirely oral compounds as well.
The last year I’ve only been off cycle probably 4 out of 12 months, with recently been off test c/diene ace, eq for about a month and a half.
So take this for what it’s worth:
View attachment 163776
View attachment 163777
View attachment 163793
Not shown, thyroid stimulating hormone,
09- .62
18- .61
None of that is relevant to this topic though ( I mean my blood work) just saying, if you got it post it! It’s something to be proud of!
 
RickyBlobby

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the only applicable study was a 4 day clomid study where they used 100 mg /day of clomid while taking 25 mg/day of test prop. NOBODY is gonna take clomid at that high of a dose for long, due to the side effects.... and that dose of prop is actually less that most guys' TRT doses.

^meanwhile, when I pointed out that EVERYBODY on that thread was wrong about tore not reducing IGF1 levels, people started making excuses as to why that didn't matter....

cherry pick the studies if you want, but at least use data that uses applicable doses for what one would expect for real-world results.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html


http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/297449-info-hcg.html#post5870442



.
I appreciate your desire to defend the truth.

I was on dbol 50mg/day and primo 400mg/week and on week 10 of my cycle my testosterone level was 450 from 25mg/day of clomid.

Without the serm my testosterone level would be about a 37.

My nuts stayed full the whole time.

It would’ve taken 2 to 3 weeks for my test level to reach 450 on pct.

So that right there proves that clomid, at the very least can make recovery much easier, probably a much smoother transition. HTPA damage occurs every time your system gets shut down. At least 1% to 26%. 5 cycles could leave your recovery at only 80 or so percent.

Versus possibly still 95+% fictional if you keep your system going and not allowing it to shut down.

I would bet $100 for a donut that you could keep your HTPA safe for much longer with a SERM to keep you from getting g shut down.


Could also make “test bases” irrelevant.

I’m drunk. Something to chew on y’all
 
rtmilburn

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I would go with HCG on cycle and the SERM for PCT.

I recently added some nolva for gyno (I'm on TRT) and saw NO change in LH/FSH levels. none.

I also know of several guys who tried clomid and nolva years ago prior to various cycles, and never saw LH/FSH levels maintained. in fact, they showed total suppression....


but, plenty of people are making some bold claims on that thread with no clinical or anecdotal evidence, so take that for what it's worth......




.
But i posted "clinic evidence", 3 different studies showing such with clomid.
 
rtmilburn

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the only applicable study was a 4 day clomid study where they used 100 mg /day of clomid while taking 25 mg/day of test prop. NOBODY is gonna take clomid at that high of a dose for long, due to the side effects.... and that dose of prop is actually less that most guys' TRT doses.

^meanwhile, when I pointed out that EVERYBODY on that thread was wrong about tore not reducing IGF1 levels, people started making excuses as to why that didn't matter....

cherry pick the studies if you want, but at least use data that uses applicable doses for what one would expect for real-world results.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html


http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/297449-info-hcg.html#post5870442



.
20% reductions is not much. Thats a fact.
 

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I appreciate your desire to defend the truth.

I was on dbol 50mg/day and primo 400mg/week and on week 10 of my cycle my testosterone level was 450 from 25mg/day of clomid.

Without the serm my testosterone level would be about a 37.

My nuts stayed full the whole time.

It would’ve taken 2 to 3 weeks for my test level to reach 450 on pct.

So that right there proves that clomid, at the very least can make recovery much easier, probably a much smoother transition. HTPA damage occurs every time your system gets shut down. At least 1% to 26%. 5 cycles could leave your recovery at only 80 or so percent.

Versus possibly still 95+% fictional if you keep your system going and not allowing it to shut down.

I would bet $100 for a donut that you could keep your HTPA safe for much longer with a SERM to keep you from getting g shut down.


Could also make “test bases” irrelevant.

I’m drunk. Something to chew on y’all
running a SERM is better than not running anything.

but running HCG is easier, and has less side effects and will likely allow better gains from the cycle.

HCG doesn't cause the IGF1 and SHBG issues that a SERM will.


but like I said before, if you wanna "prove" your theory, post LH and FSH levels, before cycle and prior to PCT. total T levels just indicate that androgens are present.



my .02.




.
 

CatSnake

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20% reductions is not much. Thats a fact.
it's still a fact that you didn't know until I posted it.

and that's from 1 dose, too.... I'm pretty sure several doses are gonna cause a much greater decrease, hence the reason Tore is more effective at some cancer treatments than the other SERMs....
 
rtmilburn

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running a SERM is better than not running anything.

but running HCG is easier, and has less side effects and will likely allow better gains from the cycle.

HCG doesn't cause the IGF1 and SHBG issues that a SERM will.


but like I said before, if you wanna "prove" your theory, post LH and FSH levels. total T levels just indicate that androgens are present.



my .02.




.
Ugh i wouldn't have such qualms with this argument, if it wasnt for the fact that sourcing hcg is a b!tch, even for legit pharmacies.
 
rtmilburn

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it's still a fact that you didn't know until I posted it.

and that's from 1 dose, too.... I'm pretty sure several doses are gonna cause a much greater decrease, hence the reason Tore is more effective at some cancer treatments than the other SERMs....
Are you aware the igf-1 can also be anti-oncogentic as well? Igf-1 with out a doubt can make cancer grow rapidly but its much more complicated than that.
 
rtmilburn

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most of the studies you posted had no clinical relevance.
While i agree, it does give significant insight how these think interact. Also have you read the full studies or just the abstracts? As the abstracts does not go into what the actual studies cover.
 

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While i agree, it does give significant insight how these think interact. Also have you read the full studies or just the abstracts? As the abstracts does not go into what the actual studies cover.
LOL....


yeah, I read them, hence my assertion on their relevance.
 

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Are you aware the igf-1 can also be anti-oncogentic as well? Igf-1 with out a doubt can make cancer grow rapidly but its much more complicated than that.
Toremifene(TOR)is a selective estrogen receptor modulator, and it is usually administered to patients with estrogen dependent breast cancer in a daily dose of 40 mg orally. However, when drug therapy, radiotherapy, etc., have become ineffective, TOR is administered to the patients in a daily dose of 120 mg orally. To elucidate the mechanisms of action of the high-dose TOR treatment, we evaluated action of TOR and its metabolites TOR-1, TOR-2, and TOR-4 on the MAPK signaling pathway of IGF-1 stimulated MCF-7 breast cancer cells. The results suggested that TOR and its metabolites suppress the IGF-1 stimulated cell growth of breast cancer by inhibiting phosphorylation of ERK1/2 protein in the MAPK pathway. These findings showed a novel molecular mechanism of high-dose TOR treatment to inhibit the growth of IGF-1 dependent breast cancer, especially emerging in recurrent cancer.

http://www.pieronline.jp/content/article/0289-8020/33040/571
 
rtmilburn

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Toremifene(TOR)is a selective estrogen receptor modulator, and it is usually administered to patients with estrogen dependent breast cancer in a daily dose of 40 mg orally. However, when drug therapy, radiotherapy, etc., have become ineffective, TOR is administered to the patients in a daily dose of 120 mg orally. To elucidate the mechanisms of action of the high-dose TOR treatment, we evaluated action of TOR and its metabolites TOR-1, TOR-2, and TOR-4 on the MAPK signaling pathway of IGF-1 stimulated MCF-7 breast cancer cells. The results suggested that TOR and its metabolites suppress the IGF-1 stimulated cell growth of breast cancer by inhibiting phosphorylation of ERK1/2 protein in the MAPK pathway. These findings showed a novel molecular mechanism of high-dose TOR treatment to inhibit the growth of IGF-1 dependent breast cancer, especially emerging in recurrent cancer.

http://www.pieronline.jp/content/article/0289-8020/33040/571
Yes, i dont see how that was relevant to what i posted. Torem reduced igf-1 you established this, the data backs you up; no doubt. I wasnt arguing that. Rather i was stated that igf-1 can also be anti-oncogenic as well as oncogenic. Igf-1's role in cancer is way more complicated than it is made out to be. Now it is never a good idea to have elevated igf-1 if you have cancer though.
 
RickyBlobby

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But i posted "clinic evidence", 3 different studies showing such with clomid.
Some people don’t listen to facts if it goes against their beliefs.
 
RickyBlobby

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running a SERM is better than not running anything.

but running HCG is easier, and has less side effects and will likely allow better gains from the cycle.

HCG doesn't cause the IGF1 and SHBG issues that a SERM will.


but like I said before, if you wanna "prove" your theory, post LH and FSH levels. total T levels just indicate that androgens are present.



my .02.




.
Your pituitary gland atrophies on cycle without a serm. And it does cause damage. HCG does not stimulate your pituitary gland.
 
Georgiepecker

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You don’t need insulin syringes to pin hcg, or even insulin. You can use any syringe/needle size of your preference.

I use 1/2” 25g needles for everything.

But for experimenting I’d say do the clomid for a nice 12 week cycle of 500mg test each week and let us know how it goes!
The worst that could happen is pct sucks and you loose all your gains, but on the flip side, pct could be a breeze and you continue to make gains!
It’s a 50/50 shot
???? Why does he have a 50% chance of losing gains because he takes colliding on cycle?? Wtf
 
brofessorx

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:smoker:
 

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Your pituitary gland atrophies on cycle without a serm. And it does cause damage. HCG does not stimulate your pituitary gland.
how much atrophy do you think occurs in the pituitary?
 
Davy25

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Sooo is the consensus that clomid wont do **** for you on cycle?
 

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