Unanswered Havoc (Epistane + Possible Degradation to Desoxymethyltestosterone) and GW (Cardarine) Stack, Recommendations Please !

Harishusain

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Hi AM ! Coming to the end of a natty recomp on BLR Vector and Core Load (https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/blr-vector-core-nutritionals-load-recomp-log.312641/), happy to say I've put on a few pounds and dropped BF down to 12-13% from a solid 18%. Looking to get absolutely shredded now before my wedding at the end of the year. This means I need to squeeze all the juice I can out of my next run, and makes a 6-8 week cycle ideal for me given the time frame. I have access to clomid/nolva and exemestane and will run a decent OTC Cycle Support and PCT product alongside if required/recommended (open to suggestions).

For some background; the last and only PH run I've done was 1-Andro at 440 and Epi-Andro at 750 for 10 weeks. That was two years ago but I handled it pretty well with no sides (except mild testicular pain towards the last week or so which subsided after coming off), ran Nolva for a month without an AI and never experienced, during or post cycle, any shutdown associated sides during or rebound for that matter. I tend to handle substances pretty well, stim or otherwise.


I intend to run Havoc at 20/30/30 and then either stick at 30 or bump for the remaining three weeks. Will play it by ear.
Stacking it with GW because I think the synergy would make for a fun cycle, not to mention the GW should have a positive effect on lipids and BP on cycle. Interested in hearing your thoughts on this, particularly people who have stacked GW with PHs or AAS !

And finally, just to cover all bases, a fat burner, nothing that will really stim me out but something that will get the job done via different mechanisms. Overkill? Maybe. Worth it? Potentially. Lipodrol seems to have an impressive profile in this regard but again, open to suggestions.

I would even consider stacking with another PH or Pharma Var if I can get my hands on it. But hair loss is a valid concern given MPB in the family from my dads side (which rules out my initial stacking choice, Superdrol), so something that is either not a DHT/derivative or has weak DHT activity is acceptable. What would you guys recommend ?


I hear that the Havoc from Predator Nutrition is legit, so I'll be going with that, and the link to the COA (independent testing results) for the Cardarine MuscleRage sells is on their page. Links attached below:



https://www.musclerage.co.uk/products/cardarine
https://www.musclerage.co.uk/products/lipodrol
https://www.predatornutrition.com/prohormones/rpn/havoc.html

Thanks in advance for your responses !
 
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Harishusain

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ValiantThor08

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Have nolva or ralox on hand. I wouldn't run the arimicare on cycle. I ran epistane years ago, and ended up having lumps towards end of cycle, and after. It also did dry the joints out.
 
Harishusain

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Have nolva or ralox on hand. I wouldn't run the arimicare on cycle. I ran epistane years ago, and ended up having lumps towards end of cycle, and after. It also did dry the joints out.
Good to see you again buddy !
What would you recommend for on cycle with Epistane? Lumps as in from gyno? Is that possible on a dry compound like this?
 
ValiantThor08

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Good to see you again buddy !
What would you recommend for on cycle with Epistane? Lumps as in from gyno? Is that possible on a dry compound like this?
It happened to me. Gyno. Would have Ralox on hand to deal with any possible gyno. Would use clomid post cycle. Would run a growth secretagogue through cycle and through PCT for gain retention.
 
Harishusain

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It happened to me. Gyno. Would have Ralox on hand to deal with any possible gyno. Would use clomid post cycle. Would run a growth secretagogue through cycle and through PCT for gain retention.
How does that happen with a compound that kills your E2? Just trying to understand its mechanisms before diving into a cycle :) Will get Ralox, thanks for the suggestion ! As for a growth secretagogue would that suffice alongside clomid? Or should I still invest in a OTC PCT supplement ?
 
Renew1

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Good to see you again buddy !
What would you recommend for on cycle with Epistane? Lumps as in from gyno? Is that possible on a dry compound like this?
You could actually run Nolva as your. SERM, instead of Clomid. That would take care of your HPTA restart, as well aa block any possible gyno problems.
(I'd RUN the SERM anyway, not keep it onhand).
Yes, some people experience gyno symptoms with Epistane, especially after cycle.
Remenber, anytime you mess with your hornones, you have the possibility of causing gyno symptoms.
 
Renew1

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I don't disagree with VT.
And if you don't want to use Ar1micare Pro, you could run CEL Cycle Assist on Cycle (it's top notch).
 
ValiantThor08

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How does that happen with a compound that kills your E2? Just trying to understand its mechanisms before diving into a cycle :) Will get Ralox, thanks for the suggestion ! As for a growth secretagogue would that suffice alongside clomid? Or should I still invest in a OTC PCT supplement ?
If you are going to run OTC PCT, I recommend you start using it mid SERM PCT, and continue a couple weeks after finishing up the nolva or clomid. And I recommend Rebirth, which is a top notch serm in and of itself.
 
Harishusain

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You could actually run Nolva as your. SERM, instead of Clomid. That would take care of your HPTA restart, as well aa block any possible gyno problems.
(I'd RUN the SERM anyway, not keep it onhand).
Yes, some people experience gyno symptoms with Epistane, especially after cycle.
Remenber, anytime you mess with your hornones, you have the possibility of causing gyno symptoms.
So theoretically if I have any gyno mid cycle I could substitute Ralox with Nolva? Of course not running a SERM is not an option, only wondering if the OTC PCT is worth it as I'm slightly strained for cash.
 
Ironpirate

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So theoretically if I have any gyno mid cycle I could substitute Ralox with Nolva? Of course not running a SERM is not an option, only wondering if the OTC PCT is worth it as I'm slightly strained for cash.
The otc serm is not necessary. If you get gyno from epi it will almost always be from rebound gyno. Using nolva as a serm should prevent that from happening but not always which is why you might also need exem or ralox.
 
Renew1

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So theoretically if I have any gyno mid cycle I could substitute Ralox with Nolva? Of course not running a SERM is not an option, only wondering if the OTC PCT is worth it as I'm slightly strained for cash.
Nolva should be plenty strong to take care of any possible gyno issues on cycle (if needed) or off.
It's the only thing of it's type that I currently have in my possession. And I've personally never had to run Ralox.
The OTC PCT isn't needed, only an extra if you want to add it (like Ironpirate said. But it isn't a SERM, IP.).
 

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About the fat burner, the best for me is the good old p-synephrine with cardio: just a beta-3 agonist, almost side-free.
 
Matthersby

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Nolva should be plenty strong to take care of any possible gyno issues on cycle (if needed) or off.
It's the only thing of it's type that I currently have in my possession. And I've personally never had to run Ralox.
The OTC PCT isn't needed, only an extra if you want to add it (like Ironpirate said. But it isn't a SERM, IP.).
All of this ^
Plus 20 of epi isn’t enough.
Start at 30 minimum. 45 is where it starts to act like winstrol. You’ll know at 30 if you tolerate it well by week 2, and at that point I highly recommend bumping to 40. I can run it at 60 and I suck at tolerating orals.
 
Matthersby

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You could keep nothing on hand but nolva for this entire cycle.
Cardarine is literally the perfect addition to epi and I wish it existed when I used to run epi.
 
Ironpirate

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Nolva should be plenty strong to take care of any possible gyno issues on cycle (if needed) or off.
It's the only thing of it's type that I currently have in my possession. And I've personally never had to run Ralox.
The OTC PCT isn't needed, only an extra if you want to add it (like Ironpirate said. But it isn't a SERM, IP.).
I don't know why i called it a serm, I'm definitely not a morning person
 
Harishusain

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Nolva should be plenty strong to take care of any possible gyno issues on cycle (if needed) or off.
It's the only thing of it's type that I currently have in my possession. And I've personally never had to run Ralox.
The OTC PCT isn't needed, only an extra if you want to add it (like Ironpirate said. But it isn't a SERM, IP.).
You could keep nothing on hand but nolva for this entire cycle.
Cardarine is literally the perfect addition to epi and I wish it existed when I used to run epi.
That's great, so if I run into any gyno issues on cycle, 40mg till it subsides? Or continue running Nolva throughout the remaining cycle? Would taking Nolva on cycle reduce recovery time after (Still going to run a 4 week protocol but curious to know).

@Matthersby I'm excited to see what kind of synergy they produce. Fingers crossed that I'm not a non-responder haha.

All of this ^
Plus 20 of epi isn’t enough.
Start at 30 minimum. 45 is where it starts to act like winstrol. You’ll know at 30 if you tolerate it well by week 2, and at that point I highly recommend bumping to 40. I can run it at 60 and I suck at tolerating orals.
Roger that. With a 6 hour half-life (if I'm wrong please correct me) is it best dosed 10/10/10 or 10/20(PWO)/0 then?
 
Harishusain

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About the fat burner, the best for me is the good old p-synephrine with cardio: just a beta-3 agonist, almost side-free.
Good suggestion bro, I've run 16mg Albuterol ED which is a selective beta agonist, they work for me, but the effects seem to weaken drastically for me by week 3/4. The N-Coumaroyldopamine in the Lipdrol formula acts as a beta receptor agonist too, much like Albuterol/P-Synepherine; similar mechanism of action.
 
Harishusain

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I've read that the Havoc bottles from Pred don't come with a date on them. And that Epistane degrades over time into desoxymethyltestosterone. Is there any way to know (by feel/sides) which of the two I'm ingesting? Would anyone advise me any differently with regard to dosage/length of cycle/on cycle support/PCT in the event that I receive degraded product?
 
Harishusain

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I don't disagree with VT.
And if you don't want to use Ar1micare Pro, you could run CEL Cycle Assist on Cycle (it's top notch).
Ar1macare Pro looks the most appealing to me. But it has AI properties which concern me insofar as Epistanes effects on E2 are concerned.

On one hand, taken together they might dry out my joints too much.

On the other hand I haven't experienced dry joints even on 2 caps Letrone daily (but we are talking about a more serious compound here) and @ValiantThor08 mentioned that he still got gyno on cycle; so could the Androst 3,5-dien-7,17-dione (50 mg) and Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid (100 mg) in the Ar1macare formula prevent a gyno flareup? Or is that something that only Nolva/Ralox will be able to handle?
 
Renew1

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Ar1macare Pro looks the most appealing to me. But it has AI properties which concern me insofar as Epistanes effects on E2 are concerned.

On one hand, taken together they might dry out my joints too much.

On the other hand I haven't experienced dry joints even on 2 caps Letrone daily (but we are talking about a more serious compound here) and @ValiantThor08 mentioned that he still got gyno on cycle; so could the Androst 3,5-dien-7,17-dione (50 mg) and Abieta-8,11,13-trien-18-oic acid (100 mg) in the Ar1macare formula prevent a gyno flareup? Or is that something that only Nolva/Ralox will be able to handle?
No.
Arimistane won't help gyno.
For this gyno, you'd need a SERM.
 
Harishusain

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No.
Arimistane won't help gyno.
For this gyno, you'd need a SERM.
But we are talking prevention, not existing gyno. If the aromatase is inhibited then how can I run into gyno issues? Sorry, not trying to sound stubborn in the least! Just trying to understand why and how gyno can become a problem with low E and aromatase inhibited? Want to be properly equipped with the knowledge I need before starting this cycle. Really appreciate the input you all have provided :)
 
Renew1

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But we are talking prevention, not existing gyno. If the aromatase is inhibited then how can I run into gyno issues? Sorry, not trying to sound stubborn in the least! Just trying to understand why and how gyno can become a problem with low E and aromatase inhibited? Want to be properly equipped with the knowledge I need before starting this cycle. Really appreciate the input you all have provided :)
Epistane acts like an AI. An AI will NOT help you during this cycle.
Also ... Arimistane is not a reliable AI.
 
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Matthersby

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But we are talking prevention, not existing gyno. If the aromatase is inhibited then how can I run into gyno issues? Sorry, not trying to sound stubborn in the least! Just trying to understand why and how gyno can become a problem with low E and aromatase inhibited? Want to be properly equipped with the knowledge I need before starting this cycle. Really appreciate the input you all have provided :)
Because epi doesn’t “aromatize”, therefore aromatase inhibitor will not be helpful. Lots of people still get gyno on AIs. Ralox and Nolva stop gyno at the actual breast tissue receptors.
Running high dose Deca, Test, Dbol, Phera, than YES run an AI, but epi is just a teeny tiny estro rebound risk. Nolva will kill that quick. Epi is almost like a steroidal AI itself, that’s why rebound is a concern, similar how guys will taper off their AIs as not to get rebound from them either.
You will pretty much never “need” an AI on dht’s. Unless you are running test which commonly needs AI.
 

offredjo

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I've read that the Havoc bottles from Pred don't come with a date on them. And that Epistane degrades over time into desoxymethyltestosterone. Is there any way to know (by feel/sides) which of the two I'm ingesting? Would anyone advise me any differently with regard to dosage/length of cycle/on cycle support/PCT in the event that I receive degraded product?
Not sure if I'm allowed to post this but I'll PM you. There are a few companies in the UK that make epistane and I've been researching them for over two months now to make sure they are legit since I want to run an epistane and halodrol stack in the spring. The company that I'm buying my epistane from has amazing reviews and its a very new company with great quality control. I just PM'ed you their name. Research them and you'll see their reviews for their epistane.
 
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