Havoc Cycle and PCT

[Jono]

This is my first post on this site but im looking at doing a cycle on Havoc this year and wanted to get your thoughts on my Cycle
Havoc 30/30/30/30 with liver assist which ill be on for one week before cycle all the way through till one week after while doing the PCT, AI Cycle support during the cycle and Taurine if i need it.
During my PCT ill be on Post cycle support, I3C, ZMA for four of six weeks and then the last 2 weeks ill be on 6oxo whats your thoughts on this if im totaly of let me know it is my first time and i want to get it right before i go out shopping.
Thanks guys

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

This is my first post on this site but im looking at doing a cycle on Havoc this year and wanted to get your thoughts on my Cycle
Havoc 30/30/30/30 with liver assist which ill be on for one week before cycle all the way through till one week after while doing the PCT, AI Cycle support during the cycle and Taurine if i need it.
During my PCT ill be on Post cycle support, I3C, ZMA for four of six weeks and then the last 2 weeks ill be on 6oxo whats your thoughts on this if im totaly of let me know it is my first time and i want to get it right before i go out shopping.
Thanks guys

Looks like a good cycle bro nice plan. I may start out week 1 at 20mg instead of 30mg. Best of luck let me know if I can help. I would also if possible have a SERM on hand.:thumbsup:

 

[Trauma1]

This is my first post on this site but im looking at doing a cycle on Havoc this year and wanted to get your thoughts on my Cycle
Havoc 30/30/30/30 with liver assist which ill be on for one week before cycle all the way through till one week after while doing the PCT, AI Cycle support during the cycle and Taurine if i need it.
During my PCT ill be on Post cycle support, I3C, ZMA for four of six weeks and then the last 2 weeks ill be on 6oxo whats your thoughts on this if im totaly of let me know it is my first time and i want to get it right before i go out shopping.
Thanks guys

Without a doubt i recommend a SERM added in with your AI Post cycle support for your PCT, jono. Make sure you check out my Havoc Write-UP to help design your cycle. If you have any questions, please feel free to hit me up.

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[Eric Potratz]

This is my first post on this site but im looking at doing a cycle on Havoc this year and wanted to get your thoughts on my Cycle
Havoc 30/30/30/30 with liver assist which ill be on for one week before cycle all the way through till one week after while doing the PCT, AI Cycle support during the cycle and Taurine if i need it.
During my PCT ill be on Post cycle support, I3C, ZMA for four of six weeks and then the last 2 weeks ill be on 6oxo whats your thoughts on this if im totaly of let me know it is my first time and i want to get it right before i go out shopping.
Thanks guys

Jono,

You don’t want to run a steroidial AI for PCT, such as 6-oxo. It will either reduce estrogen too much, or directly reduce the body’s natural testosterone production by directly suppressing the HPTA – which coincides with the reduction in LH seen in the 6-oxo human studies.

-Pp

 

[Jono]

Without a doubt i recommend a SERM added in with your AI Post cycle support for your PCT, jono. Make sure you check out my Havoc Write-UP to help design your cycle. If you have any questions, please feel free to hit me up.

Invalid Link Removed

no worrys ive read your whole thread thats what pretty much got me wanting to try Havoc, i hate being on a plateau and want to get over it, at the moment im trying to find the best way to get a SERM in Australia cause its a legal grey spot and dont want to get in customs bad books. So if anyone has got any ideas please pm me.
Thanks guys

 

[Trauma1]

no worrys ive read your whole thread thats what pretty much got me wanting to try Havoc, i hate being on a plateau and want to get over it, at the moment im trying to find the best way to get a SERM in Australia cause its a legal grey spot and dont want to get in customs bad books. So if anyone has got any ideas please pm me.
Thanks guys

I'm glad to hear that you liked the Write-Up bud.

If you have any specifics about the cycle, hit me up and i'll help you out.

 

[arizonanewbie]

Have plenty of Taurine on hand. I did a 2 week blast of Havoc at 40 and I got back pumps like a bastage within the first 3 days. Also, be aware of your joints and connective tissues. Perhaps some Cissus? I will be using cissus on my next cycle fo' sho. Good luck and have fun. I loved Havoc and I bet you will too.

 

[CROWLER]

Jono,

If you want to save some money you can get 20% off POST Cycle Support when you get it with Havoc at the board store here:

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Look down at the bottom.



CROWLER

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

Yes Nutra and AI come through:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Jono]

thanks guys, ive been on there site before but i dont have a credit card i use pay pal and they dont support it, im still looking for a SERM though, and once i find one that i can get in for experimental purposes then its all go go go. Last thing I want are man boobys

 

[glg]

bump

 

[CROWLER]

bump for what?


CROWLER

 

[crazyfool405]

Jono,

You don’t want to run a steroidial AI for PCT, such as 6-oxo. It will either reduce estrogen too much, or directly reduce the body’s natural testosterone production by directly suppressing the HPTA – which coincides with the reduction in LH seen in the 6-oxo human studies.

-Pp

6 oxo doesnt reduce estrogen, it simply stops aromatization.

id like to see studies saying it reduced LH, and it suppresses HPTA.

 

[andro69]

id like to see studies saying it reduced LH, and it suppresses HPTA.

+1

(filler)

 

[Trauma1]

6 oxo doesnt reduce estrogen, it simply stops aromatization.

By inhibiting aromatization, you are in fact controlling/reducing potential estrogen formation. I think he was referring to the estrogen negative feedback loop/Steroidal AI effect which can signal hypothalmic gonadotropin cessation.

The key is certainly not to crush your estrogen levels in pct, but control it. A healthy amount of estrogen in-fact largely contributes to HPTA upregulation/homeostasis.

I can see how the wording was a bit confusing though.

 

[crazyfool405]

By inhibiting aromatization, you are in fact controlling/reducing potential estrogen formation. I think he was referring to the estrogen negative feedback loop/Steroidal AI effect which can signal hypothalmic gonadotropin cessation.

The key is certainly not to crush your estrogen levels in pct. A healthy amount of estrogen in-fact largely contributes to HPTA upregulation/homeostasis.

I can see how the wording was a bit confusing though.

how does it signal hypothalmic gonadotropin cessation.....???

also 6oxo increases estrone, while leaving estro levels in check,

i dont understand how it will have a negative impact on you HPTA

 

[Jono]

If i was to still use 6 oxo but at 2/3 of the recommended dosage would it still work or would it be worthless, im going of Invalid Link Removed for my sources as well as alot of other threads on this forum such as the Havoc write up. If its not worth using to control estrogen what would be.

 

[Trauma1]

how does it signal hypothalmic gonadotropin cessation.....???

also 6oxo increases estrone, while leaving estro levels in check,

i dont understand how it will have a negative impact on you HPTA

I was reading a formestane post on another board prior to answering this, so i confused my postings a bit here.

I'm overtired. :yawn:

 

[Trauma1]

If i was to still use 6 oxo but at 2/3 of the recommended dosage would it still work or would it be worthless, im going of Invalid Link Removed for my sources as well as alot of other threads on this forum such as the Havoc write up. If its not worth using to control estrogen what would be.

Jono, PM me and i'll help you get this all set up.

 

[Eric Potratz]

how does it signal hypothalmic gonadotropin cessation.....???

also 6oxo increases estrone, while leaving estro levels in check,

i dont understand how it will have a negative impact on you HPTA

Here is a 6-oxo study showing a supposed increase in T and free T but no benefit in fat free mass, lean mass or total mass – or any indication of anabolic activity. [The increase in T and free T should have increased FFM over an 8 week period.]

Being that 6-oxo has a very similar structure to testosterone, It is likely that 6-oxo itself is causing a false positive. [being detected as T, and not really increasing T] Or, 6-oxo is really increasing T and offsetting testosterone from the anabolic receptor and preventing any sort of anabolic or androgenic benefits.

Here is a qoute direct from the study -

“By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass”

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Theoretically, 6-oxo would decrease LH & FSH at the hypothalamus, but the study shows little effect on LH or FSH, presumably because 6-oxo is a weaker androgen/estrogen at the hypothalamus possibly offsetting T/E. However, for a guy in PCT who will have non-existent hormone levels to begin with he doesn’t want to further interfere with his HPTA by taking a synthetic steroid hormone such as 6-oxo – especially since its offering no benefit anyway.

-Pp

 

[crazyfool405]

Here is a 6-oxo study showing a supposed increase in T and free T but no benefit in fat free mass, lean mass or total mass – or any indication of anabolic activity. [The increase in T and free T should have increased FFM over an 8 week period.]

Being that 6-oxo has a very similar structure to testosterone, It is likely that 6-oxo itself is causing a false positive. [being detected as T, and not really increasing T] Or, 6-oxo is really increasing T and offsetting testosterone from the anabolic receptor and preventing any sort of anabolic or androgenic benefits.

Here is a qoute direct from the study -

“By being chemically similar to testosterone it could interact with testosterone in a competitive fashion not only at the aromatase enzyme but also at the androgen receptor in muscles. Competition at the androgen receptor would decrease testosterone’s ability to bind to the receptor and stimulate muscle growth. This would explain the lack of increased muscle mass”

Invalid Link Removed

Theoretically, 6-oxo would decrease LH & FSH at the hypothalamus, but the study shows little effect on LH or FSH, presumably because 6-oxo is a weaker androgen/estrogen at the hypothalamus possibly offsetting T/E. However, for a guy in PCT who will have non-existent hormone levels to begin with he doesn’t want to further interfere with his HPTA by taking a synthetic steroid hormone such as 6-oxo – especially since its offering no benefit anyway.

-Pp

i can see how that study has been done, i have the full PDF. it doesnt act as an androgen, it has no anabolic activity. 6 oxo isnt a steroid, and the metablites arent androgenic (in fact show little activity at all). i believe that that study proved that as well.

and as acting like an antiestrogen in the hypothalmus its action is similar to nolva in the sense that it acts as an anitestrogen at the hypothalmus indirectly increasing test levels.

 

[Eric Potratz]

i can see how that study has been done, i have the full PDF. it doesnt act as an androgen, it has no anabolic activity. 6 oxo isnt a steroid, and the metablites arent androgenic (in fact show little activity at all). i believe that that study proved that as well.

and as acting like an antiestrogen in the hypothalmus its action is similar to nolva in the sense that it acts as an anitestrogen at the hypothalmus indirectly increasing test levels.

6-oxo a steroid, and a worthless one at that.

An anti-androgen is hardly the thing you want during PCT when trying to preserve muscle mass.

-Pp

 

[A_I_Sports_Nutrition]

thanks guys, ive been on there site before but i dont have a credit card i use pay pal and they dont support it, im still looking for a SERM though, and once i find one that i can get in for experimental purposes then its all go go go. Last thing I want are man boobys

They accept money orders at least they did when I ordered from them.:thumbsup:

 

[crazyfool405]

6-oxo a steroid, and a worthless one at that.

An anti-androgen is hardly the thing you want during PCT when trying to preserve muscle mass.

-Pp

many people have used it for a LONG time i guess you can say tried and true at this point.

with no decrease or increase in SHBG and only increase in free testosterone, how is it as bad as you say, and if you use it with 6bromo and lower the estroidal, you got one hell of a combo.

 

[Eric Potratz]

many people have used it for a LONG time i guess you can say tried and true at this point.

with no decrease or increase in SHBG and only increase in free testosterone, how is it as bad as you say, and if you use it with 6bromo and lower the estroidal, you got one hell of a combo.

Unfortunately, a lot of people have been fooled by good marketing with 6-oxo, or a transient boost in libido or “big loads”.

The guys who have used 6-oxo consistently for a LONG time are the same guys that write me emails with symptoms of low libido, erectile dysfunction, lack of gains in the gym, ect – the same sort of effects you would see from taking an anti-androgen like 6-oxo for a long period of time.

Even if you take it with an anti-estrogen such as 6-bromo that doesn’t make 6-oxo effective – it’s still an anti-androgen.

-Pp