hair loss prevention
- Thread starter BOVEY
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info_cker
New member
it depends on the reason for the hair loss. if it suddenly occured during a cycle then finast or even dutas would be better. the main ingredient in nizoral has mild anti-androgen properties but i don't feel are as effective as finast. nizoral allows for topical app, but you can actually do the same with finast/dutas(both absorb into the skin well).
if the hairloss is something not linked to a cycle, then it could be hormone driven or due to clogging or other issues with the hair follicle. in that case nizoral would be better at cleansing and finast not do alot of good
if the hairloss is something not linked to a cycle, then it could be hormone driven or due to clogging or other issues with the hair follicle. in that case nizoral would be better at cleansing and finast not do alot of good
FlyByU
New member
Finasteride DOES interfere with strength gains. Dihydrotestosterone has many important functions and is not a hormone that you want to lower systemically. According to Dr John Crisler (Swale on meso-rx), finasteride has caused primary hypogonadism in many men. If you're thinking about using topical spironolactone as a means of blocking DHT at the hair follicles, forget it because despite what the manufacturer and some studies say, it is rapidly absorbed through the skin and will cause low testosterone levels very quickly.
swoody
Member
Spironolactone has worked very well for me. I use 5% cream and just rub it on the affected areas once or twice a day (usually once at night). I think that this combination as well as dutasturide have helped me to quite noticably regrow much of my hair in the effected areas. Try it... it blocks DHT at the scalp very effectively... I can't remember the exact percent it blocks. The only problem is that it has a small half-life... something like 6-8 hours. But it's worth a shot... hell, it works for me...
info_cker
New member
ok here is my 2 cents worth: while finas/dutas reduced dht via 5ar. dutas is better since it blocks both types of 5ar. i believe that @ .5 mg dutas achieves 96-97% reduction after 2wks of use. doubling the dose will bring it to 99%. the cost isn't worth the increase. since finas blocks one type of 5ar it usually acheives in the 70% range(not sure the exact percentage). they type of 5ar post common in skin isn't blocked by finas. it help hair loss by it's over all reduction in dht. while dht is more active than test reducing it may effect gains, but the reduction trigger an increase in test, which will help offset this. getting rid of all dht isn't harmful. there is a know syndrome inwhich males are born with no 5ar and therefore no dht. they have normal sexual and physical development, but have very little body hair and no hair loss.
there is not data to indicate that topical spiro becomes systemic. spiro metabolizes rapidly in the skin and by the time it gets through the skin to be systemically absorbed it losses it's antiandrogen effect. i read an article where for research a male had nearly his entire body covered with spiro sol. and there wasn't systemic effect.
if you are looking to buy finas online, try one of the sponsors for an oral. i buy my dutas in gel caps and have been happy with my source.
there is not data to indicate that topical spiro becomes systemic. spiro metabolizes rapidly in the skin and by the time it gets through the skin to be systemically absorbed it losses it's antiandrogen effect. i read an article where for research a male had nearly his entire body covered with spiro sol. and there wasn't systemic effect.
if you are looking to buy finas online, try one of the sponsors for an oral. i buy my dutas in gel caps and have been happy with my source.
info_cker
New member
liquid finas is fine. that will also be the easiest way to get it. most of the board sponsors sell research chems. dosage is usually between 1-5 mg. most chems are at 5mg/ml. when i used to buy finast as a chem i would dilute it to 2.5mg/ml. made it last longer and at that dose it is still effective. mostly the perscription for hairloss is on the lower end of the dosage scale anyway. i haven't heard anything about strength loss being bad enough to be an issue for most people
dutas is still better. i haven't had any problem with decreased libido. i was expecting it. i believe it only occurs in a small percentage of people. i actually kinda fell like it does the opposite. at least it seems that way with me
dutas is still better. i haven't had any problem with decreased libido. i was expecting it. i believe it only occurs in a small percentage of people. i actually kinda fell like it does the opposite. at least it seems that way with me
info_cker
New member
most oral chems are 5mg/ml. since you will only need 1/5 ml, you will definitely need a dropper that is marked by 5th ml to get an accurate. a syringe will work, but most oral syringes are to big for the bottle. i always diluted mine and put it into a bottle with a large enough mouth to get the syringe in. you could also take the pin off a smaller one that will fit in the bottle the chem comes in. the only other option is to locate 1mg tabs online.
FlyByU
New member
I'm sick of reading posts about topical spiro and giving warnings to stay away from it. I can't speak about other topical spironolactone solutions, but in my experience, just 2 applications of Dr Lee's 2% spironlactone solution dropped both my free and total testosterone levels from the low range of normal for an adult male to the levels of a 9 year old pre-pubescent boy! Forget the studies. If you don't believe me, use Dr Lee's 2% topical spiro yourself and take a blood test before using it and after a few days - a week of application to see how your free and total testosterone levels change. Come back here and post your blood test results. I'd like as many people to try this as possible. There needs to be more tests done on this stuff. The reason why you aren't losing hair while using topical spiro is not because it is blocking DHT at the hair follicles, but because it is lowering your endogenous androgens. Do you want that to happen??
info_cker
New member
the post from flybuy is interesting.. i'm curious to know if any of the other readers have has the same situation... i have been using top spiro for over a month and have no loss of libibo or other side effects. this could only occur if it made it's way through the skin and become systemic. since spiro is a diuretic, if that happed you would notice the diuretic effect.
finast doesn't work that same as spiro. spiro effects all androgens. finast simply interferes with 5ar and test doesn't become dht. it doesn't work by competing with androgens. like dutas it is classified as an azasteroid.
finast doesn't work that same as spiro. spiro effects all androgens. finast simply interferes with 5ar and test doesn't become dht. it doesn't work by competing with androgens. like dutas it is classified as an azasteroid.
Rostam
Well-known member
So if you didn't have any of the side effects, the chances are that it was not distributed systemically right? Did you use cream or solution? Maybe it becomes systemic when the carrier is a cream? But I read that a lot of people used the cream without any side effect either. Would be good to have more feedback of users.
wastedwhiteboy2
Board Supporter
flybyu can you post a link to your test results and did you get retested after stopping the spiro to see if your test came back up?
FlyByU
New member
Here's the post I made on the other 'Hair loss prevention' thread :
Important Warning About Topically Applied Spironolactone!!
Last week I ordered a bottle of Dr Richard Lee's 2% spironolactone solution from Invalid Link Removed
I applied it to the thinning areas of my hairline the night before as well as the morning of a blood test which included total testosterone and free testosterone. My blood test result came back as well below the normal range :
Total testosterone 5.4 nmol/L (normal range 9.5 - 35)
Calculated free testosterone 123 pmol/L (normal range 225 - 725)
Both my LH and FSH levels were in the normal range at 4 IU/L (range 1-10)
Exactly 3 weeks before I had the above blood test, I also had my testosterone levels tested. The results of this test were as follows :
Serum testosterone 16.1 nmol/L (normal range 12.4 - 34.1)
Free testosterone 53 pmol/L (normal range 31 - 100.0)
As you can see, I was in the low range of normal for testosterone in my first test, however, unlike the second test, I was still within the normal range.
I did not take any other medications or supplements over that 3 week period between the 1st and 2nd blood tests and I have not taken any drugs of any description for more than a year.
Since my T levels have fallen so dramatically in the space of just 3 weeks, I can't think of anything other than the 2% spironolactone solution that could have caused this large drop. My current blood test results shows that my blood T levels are at pre-pubescent levels!
Anyone who is thinking about using topically applied spironolactone, please don't do it. Don't believe the lies you read about topically applied spironolactone not having any systemic effects.
I think it is imperative that anyone using topical spironolactone be monitored closely for systemic side effects and blood hormone level alterations.
Invalid Link Removed
Important Warning About Topically Applied Spironolactone!!
Last week I ordered a bottle of Dr Richard Lee's 2% spironolactone solution from Invalid Link Removed
I applied it to the thinning areas of my hairline the night before as well as the morning of a blood test which included total testosterone and free testosterone. My blood test result came back as well below the normal range :
Total testosterone 5.4 nmol/L (normal range 9.5 - 35)
Calculated free testosterone 123 pmol/L (normal range 225 - 725)
Both my LH and FSH levels were in the normal range at 4 IU/L (range 1-10)
Exactly 3 weeks before I had the above blood test, I also had my testosterone levels tested. The results of this test were as follows :
Serum testosterone 16.1 nmol/L (normal range 12.4 - 34.1)
Free testosterone 53 pmol/L (normal range 31 - 100.0)
As you can see, I was in the low range of normal for testosterone in my first test, however, unlike the second test, I was still within the normal range.
I did not take any other medications or supplements over that 3 week period between the 1st and 2nd blood tests and I have not taken any drugs of any description for more than a year.
Since my T levels have fallen so dramatically in the space of just 3 weeks, I can't think of anything other than the 2% spironolactone solution that could have caused this large drop. My current blood test results shows that my blood T levels are at pre-pubescent levels!
Anyone who is thinking about using topically applied spironolactone, please don't do it. Don't believe the lies you read about topically applied spironolactone not having any systemic effects.
I think it is imperative that anyone using topical spironolactone be monitored closely for systemic side effects and blood hormone level alterations.
Invalid Link Removed
FlyByU
New member
I have not yet had my blood test repeated, however, subjectively, I have no symtoms of low testosterone and and the spironolactone would have easily cleared my system by now. I will be having a follow-up blood test done, however, and when the results are in, I will post them here.
I don't think one should assume that every topical spironolactone product has systemic effects. It's likely that Dr Lee's 2% spironolactone liquid is absorbed more readily through the skin than his 5% cream, however, I'm not willing to try this product again after the experience I had.
Due to spironolactone's short half life, if it is only applied at night, I would imagine one's testosterone levels would return close to baseline by morning, which is why most guys don't notice much if any change in libido during the day. Having said that, who would want to have their endogenous testosterone levels lowered during sleep (the period of greatest testosterone release and muscle anabolism)? Additionally, the dramatic fluctuations in hormone levels that no doubt occur with the use of topical spironolactone cannot be at all healthy.
As far as finasteride and dutasteride are concerned, there is no way on earth I would take the stuff. Dihydrotesterone is an extremely important androgen and should not be lowered systemically. Both of these drugs elevate estrogen and have lead to gyno in some people. Dr Crisler (Swale on meso-rx) has several patients who have developed primary hypogonadism from the use of finasteride and dutasteride.
I don't think one should assume that every topical spironolactone product has systemic effects. It's likely that Dr Lee's 2% spironolactone liquid is absorbed more readily through the skin than his 5% cream, however, I'm not willing to try this product again after the experience I had.
Due to spironolactone's short half life, if it is only applied at night, I would imagine one's testosterone levels would return close to baseline by morning, which is why most guys don't notice much if any change in libido during the day. Having said that, who would want to have their endogenous testosterone levels lowered during sleep (the period of greatest testosterone release and muscle anabolism)? Additionally, the dramatic fluctuations in hormone levels that no doubt occur with the use of topical spironolactone cannot be at all healthy.
As far as finasteride and dutasteride are concerned, there is no way on earth I would take the stuff. Dihydrotesterone is an extremely important androgen and should not be lowered systemically. Both of these drugs elevate estrogen and have lead to gyno in some people. Dr Crisler (Swale on meso-rx) has several patients who have developed primary hypogonadism from the use of finasteride and dutasteride.
BigVrunga
Well-known member
Ive used Dr.Lee's 2% Spiro solution in the past and have had zero side effects. I've really only used Spiro when on a cycle of 1test/4AD - but I used it straight through PCT with no problems.
FlyByU's test results are alarming, but many others have used Spiro with no ill side effects. True, it is not approved by the FDA to fight hair loss - but I am very prone to MPB and experienced no shedding even when using 1test, which is a very androgenic compound.
Just like a small number of people using Finasteride can experience negative sides, Im sure a certain number of people using Spiro topically may suffer negative side effects as well. If you do decide to use it for an extended length of time, It would probably be a good idea to consult your doctor.
No. Some users of Finasteride may experience negative sides, but many wont. I decided to start using it about 2 weeks ago @ 1mg/day, and my strength, libido, etc are all great.
This thread seems to be scaring people, rather than informing them about the options to fight MPB and the risks assiciated with them. True, some may experience negative side effects when using androgen blocking compounds to fight genetic AGA. Others won't experience anything at all. While some (the lucky few), will see a halt, or even a reversal of male pattern baldness.
If you're worried about losing your hair, the first step you should take is topical Azelaic Acid and Minoxidil, with Nizoral 3x per week.
If, after 6 months you arent seeing the results you're after, try adding LLLT (low level laser therapy) with a laser-comb like device. I'd even say try this first, as it seems to be quite effective...but the jury is still out there on it.
If you're certain you will keep losing your hair (have a strong genetic history of MPB, like me) if you havent seen a complete reversal of your hair loss after a couple years of minoxidil treatments, add an oral solution like Finasteride and monitor for side effects.
I'd even go so far as to say that if you're certain you're going bald, do it all right away. Finasteride, Minoxidil/AA/Nizoral,and LLLT - all of the 'proven' methods stacked together are your best bet. That's what I'm doing, and I am slowly seeing those thin spots on my head fill in - with *NO* negative sides thus far.
BV
Dangling Unit
New member
I've been using Propecia for about 3 years now. I have no sides. The temporal region is the same as I started it. No loss, no growth. The sides and back are thicker. I used to have an island in front with the mainland not too far away, but it's now a peninsula. I'm going to get the "research" finasteride and try it. Propecia is hella expensive.
Dangling Unit
New member
I haven't. It would be too inconvenient for me. Easier to throw a pill in with my supps.BigVrunga said:
P-Rouds
New member
alright... i have a question. was gonna start my own thread but then decided that there's to many hairloss threads... ok, i've never had this before but my family does have a case of the receding hairline but... now i can take my fingers and literally pull hair out of the top of my head. i'm talkin usually get like 3 hairs per pull (not a hard pull either):wtf: . it obviously stops after a while but not after the floor looks like someone just got their hair cut. this just started like 3-4 weeks ago. thats when i started liftin legs much more consistently and harder. is this due to increased test production? i will be ordering big vrunga's hair growth stack
i've never used a ph or aas. just curious if anyone else has experienced this or has any incite???
i've never used a ph or aas. just curious if anyone else has experienced this or has any incite???
SJA
dead sexy wino
I haven't had any sides with topical spiro.....but I haven't had any bloodwork done either. It does in fact smell like a skunk sack....but it certainly stops shedding while on cycle. I've used it through PCT teh same as BV and felt fine. I'm curious about bloodwork now though. Maybe that explains the crying jag when watching Fried Green Tomatoes :toofunny: :toofunny:
P-Rouds
New member
BigVrunga said:
thanks bigvrunga... read it already tho
I understand the test converting to dht then carried to scalp via the 5AR but..., i was just wondering what would have triggered this massive hair loss out of no where. don't have a fam history with balding on top and thats where i'm losin it. could i just have this test spike out of no where? i guess i should go get my levels checked or something...
BigVrunga
Well-known member
Your hair goes through cycles of growth and shedding, so it may be completely normal. A slight boost in natural testosterone wouldnt do much of anything to the hairline. Although working out and leg training can keep test levels elevated, I doubt its going to be enough to cause premature shedding, even in someone who may be prone to MPB.
I'd keep an eye on it, try not to tug on your hair too much but maybe take a picture and take another one with the same lighting a few weeks later and compare the two. If you are certain its not just a natural phase of hair shedding and you want to keep your hair, take action asap.
Some people lose their hair gradually over time, and for some poor folks, they can go from a nice thick mop to Mr.Clean in a year or two...
BV
Where on top? The front, or the vertex of the head more toward the back of the head?
I'd keep an eye on it, try not to tug on your hair too much but maybe take a picture and take another one with the same lighting a few weeks later and compare the two. If you are certain its not just a natural phase of hair shedding and you want to keep your hair, take action asap.
Some people lose their hair gradually over time, and for some poor folks, they can go from a nice thick mop to Mr.Clean in a year or two...
BV
Where on top? The front, or the vertex of the head more toward the back of the head?
BigVrunga
Well-known member
Indeed, this makes perfect sense. Spiro is the only topical general androgen blocker that is relatively easy to obtain. Other drugs, like Finasteride, Dutasteride, - have only been found to block DHT via 5ar inhibition. This will work great for test, not with tren.
Another compound, Fluridil, is supposed to be even better than Spiro but AFAIK it is quite expensive.Invalid Link Removed
I use topical 2% Spiro daily and I've suffered no ill effects whatsoever.
BV
BigVrunga
Well-known member
I havent yet. I really do need to though. My libido and gains in the gym are doing great though -I suspect my test levels are just fine.
I use Spiro very sparingly - I get it from Dr.Lee's site, Minoxidil.com. It comes in with a dabber bottle and I only use a small amount on the parts of my scalp that need it. I'd say < 1mL/day.
BV