Hair Loss Prevention

[Ryker]

Nioxin???

Hey guys, I wonder if any of you have used the shampoo Nioxin? I used it at a friends house a few years ago, really liked it and bought some to use everyday. I am not thinning just trying to keep my hair even though I am nopt prone to MPB that I know of. It says it is used to remove DHT from the scalp, but not much more is said about it, and I read all these posts on here not seeing it mentioned either. It is sold OTC fyi. I wonder if it is the same concept just not as strong as say ther other typical shampoos mentioned on here, or if it is crap or what. I am about to run a test eq cycle and just want to keep what I have until the cycle is over. Thanks guys, all feedback is appreciated.

 

[ryanbodybuilder]

nizoral 2% is probably alot better than nioxin

 

[Ryker]

yeah...

nizoral 2% is probably alot better than nioxin

I figure it is, I want to see if anyone has any info as to why. Thanks for your reply man, all are appreciated.

 

[steve777]

where can i buy spriolactone because it looks like CNW isnt carrying it anymore

they emailed me saying it would be back in stock today

 

[Changing]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=402321



**** like that worries me!


This is what i got so far

Nizoral Shampoo %2
Spiro %5
Minoxidil 5%
Azelaic Acid 5%

i think i'm goign to add the finesteride with my PH cycle! SD/Max LMG!


Guys where do you get Retin A???

 

[BigVrunga]

Changing I would think you would be fine w/o the finasteride on a short cycle of SD/Max. The topical stack you listed should be more than enough...if you want to be extra careful start it a month before the cycle.

BTW, only use the minoxidil if you need to regrow hair. Becuase once you start using, you are supposed to keep using it. Minoxidil is a permanent treatment for MPB.

Azelaic is available at minoxidil.com.

BV

 

[lifted]

I've been using AA/minox 5% 2 times/day for almost 3 weeks now and I'm getting that shedding at first with the minox. It's not bad, but it's noticeable when I apply the minox ED. How much longer do you guys think it will be until I stop this shedding and regrowing? I know everybody's different, but anybody got an estimate from what you know/experienced??

 

[steve777]

I've been using AA/minox 5% 2 times/day for almost 3 weeks now and I'm getting that shedding at first with the minox. It's not bad, but it's noticeable when I apply the minox ED. How much longer do you guys think it will be until I stop this shedding and regrowing? I know everybody's different, but anybody got an estimate from what you know/experienced??

check out: https://www.xandrox.com/which.htm

TEMPORARY SHEDDING ASSOCIATED WITH MINOXIDIL BASED PRODUCTS

A small percentage of patients, male and female, experience slightly increased shedding of hair when they start using any topical minoxidil products. This shedding is normally a one time occurrence, and affects only the hair shafts which are in the telogen phase. Telogen phase hair shafts are those that have finished the growth cycle, are ready to fall out, and usually represent about 10% of the total hair shafts on the scalp at any given period of time. Although shedding associated with hair regrowth drugs is understandably frustrating, the shedding is actually a good indication that the patient's therapy is working like it is supposed to work. Ultimately all telogen hair shafts which have been shed will be replaced with new hair shafts which are thicker, remain on the scalp longer, and are more vibrant in texture. One is reminded of the slogan used when muscle tissue is expanded through strenuous exercise: 'No pain. No gain.' Few therapies associated with body enhancement are instant, and it takes almost as long to regrow hair as it did to lose it.

The hair replacement period requires that the telogen (resting) phase be completed, which normally takes approximately 100 days, and may take longer as our bodies age.

 

[lifted]

Thanks bro, guess I gotta nother couple months at least. :sad:

 

[ek00fbp]

I cant find the Minoxidil 5%/Azelaic Acid 5%/Retin-A 2% Solution on any of the sites u listed?? Where can I find this?

 

[BigVrunga]

Xandrox nighttime on Minoxidil.com (or Xandrox.com)

 

[rrgg]

There's a comment on that elitefitness board about finasteride. Do others agree with this statement? I've only heard not to use it with deca. This surprised me:

[Propecia] only works for certain drugs like Test and will not do much to prevent hair loss for the majority of the DHT deriv. drugs.

 

[BigVrunga]

That's true. Finasteride blocks DHT conversion at the 5AR enzyme. Drugs like 1-test, Anadrol that convert to DHT through other methods - so Finasteride wont have an effect on them. Compunds that are derived from DHT dont need to convert so the negative effects they have on the hair line are from the androgen molecule itself, or by converting to DHT through another pathway.

In this case, the only effective solution would be topical treatments like Spiro, Fluridil, or Azelaic acid.

AFIK, Finasteride is only effective in combating the conversion of DHT the 5AR enzyme. This makes it a possible choice if running something like testosterone, 4AD, or if you're just naturally going bald from your own test.

BV

 

[rrgg]

Just to be clear... there's always the possibility of indirect increase in DHT, isn't there? For example if test increases, that test can convert to DHT. Finasteride should combat hairloss that might result from this, right?

Specifically, SD is suppose to be easy on the hair... but will finasteride help minimize any hairloss that might result from SD? Sorry these are dumb questions, but this always confuses me. Thanks.

 

[John Smeton]

Just to be clear... there's always the possibility of indirect increase in DHT, isn't there? For example if test increases, that test can convert to DHT. Finasteride should combat hairloss that might result from this, right?

Specifically, SD is suppose to be easy on the hair... but will finasteride help minimize any hairloss that might result from SD? Sorry these are dumb questions, but this always confuses me. Thanks.

Yes, the dht inhibitor always does its job.

If you do superdrol spiro, AA, whatever works if any dht builds up.

 

[rrgg]

Yes, the dht inhibitor always does its job.

If you do superdrol spiro, AA, whatever works if any dht builds up.

I want to use finasteride with SD. I guess that will work.

I actually have spiro, but for me, the problem with liquids is that I still have enough hair to make it hard to get to the scalp without wasting it. Does anyone sell a shampoo version of spiro?

 

[John Smeton]

does anyone know how AA works

how good would you rate AA compared to nizoral 2 percent

 

[lifted]

I've been using the AA/minox 5% combo for a little over a month now....I'm still getting crazy shedding from the minox...my hair has never looked so thin....and I have brillow pad hair as it is.....I'm italian and also have a natural darker toned skin...I think the AA is starting to make my face lighter looking...does anybody know if this is permanent? Or does it go away some after awhile? It's not bad or anything, could be just in my head, but I just wana be safe...so I might drop the AA and just keep running the minox....I'm gonna stick it out with the minox, at least I know it's gonna end up working descent for me....hows' everybody else doing with their results? Let us know guys.

Smeton, the AA works by blocking DHT at the scalp...how, I still dunno...

Oh yeah one more things guys,....If I put the minox/aa on my hair in the am after shower, and then get another shower during the day, will I have to reapply it again, or will it still be in my scalp working...basically, will the washing of my hair like 3-4 hours after I put my first applicatin on make the minox/aa not work?

 

[Ikaika]

Would 2% nizoral and 5% spiro be enough to protect my hair during a 4 week Ergomax cycle?

 

[BigVrunga]

I've been using the AA/minox 5% combo for a little over a month now....I'm still getting crazy shedding from the minox...my hair has never looked so thin....and I have brillow pad hair as it is.....I'm italian and also have a natural darker toned skin...I think the AA is starting to make my face lighter looking...does anybody know if this is permanent? Or does it go away some after awhile? It's not bad or anything, could be just in my head, but I just wana be safe...so I might drop the AA and just keep running the minox....I'm gonna stick it out with the minox, at least I know it's gonna end up working descent for me....hows' everybody else doing with their results? Let us know guys.

Smeton, the AA works by blocking DHT at the scalp...how, I still dunno...

Oh yeah one more things guys,....If I put the minox/aa on my hair in the am after shower, and then get another shower during the day, will I have to reapply it again, or will it still be in my scalp working...basically, will the washing of my hair like 3-4 hours after I put my first applicatin on make the minox/aa not work?

Ive never heard of Azelaic Acid lightening someone's skin. Although, it is technically possible in *rare* cases in dark-skinned individuals. If you really think its the culprit, stop using it and see if you notice a change.

You would probably be OK if you shower 3-4 hours after the first application. Ideally you want 12 hours inbetween each application but that's not always possible. You could always put on .5mL of the minox/azelaic acid and then after your shower 5 hours later apply the second .5mL, in effect splitting up the daytime application into 2 doses.

Just to be clear... there's always the possibility of indirect increase in DHT, isn't there? For example if test increases, that test can convert to DHT. Finasteride should combat hairloss that might result from this, right?

Specifically, SD is suppose to be easy on the hair... but will finasteride help minimize any hairloss that might result from SD? Sorry these are dumb questions, but this always confuses me. Thanks.

If SD converts to DHT through 5AR or if it increases levels of testosterone, then yes Finasteride will help reduce the risks of hairloss. I dont know how SD really works though, I havent looked into it. I know it is structurally related to Anadrol,and while anadrol does raise levels of DHT it dosent do it through 5AR. No clue if this translates to SD.

>does anyone know how AA works
>how good would you rate AA compared to nizoral 2 percent

Read about it:
https://www.xandrox.com/azelaic.htm

AA and Nizoral are not meant to compete with each other - you use both together as part of a synergistic to treat MPB. From what Ive read, I would think AA would be a more potent AA inhibitor. If you're not losing your hair and are just looking for something to block DHT as a precautionary measure, EOD shampooing with Nizoral might be sufficient.

Would 2% nizoral and 5% spiro be enough to protect my hair during a 4 week Ergomax cycle?

I dont know how Ergomax works, but I understand its a potent blend of pheramones. I wouldnt know how it contributes to hairloss, if it even does. If you're worried, I would use Regrowth Treatment SHampoo EOD and 2% Spironolactone as a precaution. 5% spiro is some potent stuff, and smells pretty bad. Only pull out the big guns if you have to.

BV

 

[lifted]

Thx for the tips BV....

I read on minoxidil.com that it could lighten the skin in dark-skinned individuals?? I've got a daker skin tone than other white guys...lol..?? I e-mailed Dr. Lee about it, so maybe I'll get an answer from him tomorrow, I'll post it here for anybody else that's interested.

 

[BigVrunga]

Thx for the tips BV....

I read on minoxidil.com that it could lighten the skin in dark-skinned individuals?? I've got a daker skin tone than other white guys...lol..?? I e-mailed Dr. Lee about it, so maybe I'll get an answer from him tomorrow, I'll post it here for anybody else that's interested.

I understand your concern lifted - I'm an Italian family myself and while I'm pretty pale, my brothers both have the darker, olive toned skin inherent to our native region
The skin-lightening is *really* rare though, from what I understand. Perhaps you've just been staying out of the sun for the past few weeks? Something to think about...

I e-mailed Dr. Lee about it, so maybe I'll get an answer from him tomorrow, I'll post it here for anybody else that's interested.

Definitely do!

BV

 

[lifted]

Dr. Lee's response...

Okay, just got this response back fellas. My questions are in regular font, his answers are in the bold....

[size=-1]Hello, I have been using AA/minox combo (both 5%) for a month now. I apply twice daily.[/size] [size=-1]However I've been getting major irritation which is most likely due to the AA application. I''m going to cease use of the AA, and continue on with the minox 5%.[/size]
[size=-1]
I have no way of knowing what formula you are using because you did not give your name, and I could look up your record.[/size]

[size=-1]I would hope that discontinuing AA will stop your irritation, but it is not clear that it will if you continue using minoxidil. You may have developed an allergy to propylene glycol in the minoxidil formula. Allergic reactions are always 'learned behaviors', so it requires prior exposure so we cannot dismiss propylene glycol as the inciting allergen.[/size]

[size=-1]But my main concern/question is that I've read previously that AA may cause hypopigmentation in some. Well, I have a darker complexion than most since I'm mostly italian. And I think that my forehead/face may be getting lighter than it was before....what I want to know is, is this permanent, or will it go back to the way it was? [/size][size=-1]Thx for any help...[/size]

[size=-1]One of the possible side effects of azelaic acid is to cause a depigmentation of the skin. However, it is only known to occur on skin that is abnormally pigmented, such as in moles or melanomas. In any case, the azelaic acid only affects the areas to which it is applied, so this side effect may not have any relevance for you. Skin color should go back to normal after discontinuing azelaic acid.[/size]

[size=-1]You may access the complete pharmacological information on azelaic acid at http://www.allergan.com/download/AZELEX_PInew.pdf.[/size]

[size=-1]Richard Lee, M.D.[/size]

 

[rrgg]

If SD converts to DHT through 5AR or if it increases levels of testosterone, then yes Finasteride will help reduce the risks of hairloss. I dont know how SD really works though, I havent looked into it. I know it is structurally related to Anadrol,and while anadrol does raise levels of DHT it dosent do it through 5AR. No clue if this translates to SD.

According to sledge, SD does not directly cause hairloss. I figure this means it does not act like Anadrol. I guess all that's left is the possible indirect hairloss due to increases in test. (?)

Maybe someone from Designer Supps could address this? Thanks.

 

[lifted]

Oh yeah, I just wanted to also say (about my above concerns regarding the AA) that my forehead/face (like BV said) may have just not been getting as much sun as usual...as today my face looks rather tan again....kinda hard to tell as you can imagine, it was probably all in my head due to paranoia...regardless, even if it is causing it, as Dr. Lee mentioned, it is reverseable....so I'm just gonna continue with this last combo bottle and then just start using mino solo in the future.

 

[John Smeton]

Big vungra ,

You seem well read in this area. Well my situation is i have my hair, maybe a bit of a receding hairline, but not that noticable. My Father has gone 70 % bald. I am 24 and want to prevent hairloss before it even starts. So i might have a slight receding hairline or its a widows peak REGARDLESS ive been using nizoral 1 % and it has seemed to thicken my hair up.

now im planning on doing a superdrol cycle in the future, would you recommend that
a stronger haircare product than nizoral 1 % is used for a three week superdrol cycle? (like AA, spiro, or the ket powder CNS carries that i can put in my favorite smelling shampoo and make a good dht protectant, and do you you know the formula of how much ket powder to put in a normal 15 fluid ounces?

Thank you!

 

[Changing]

finasteride only blocks DHT at the scalp correct? just wanted to know because i think i'm certain im' going to be running it with SD or ergo dont want to hinder gains though so hopefully at the scalp

 

[Zero Tolerance]

Finasteride will block DHT, to some extent, in your whole body. It's mainly used for enlarged prostates. You'll want to use topical Spironolactone.. It doesn't smell nice but it'll block a large portion of the DHT in your scalp...

 

[travbedaman]

If one desires hair loss to halt or hopefully reverse, then a few areas need to be addresed. First off, topicals - any of them, generally for most people are not enough. Products such as AA or Spiro have short half lives and while very beneficial, they only give you protection during the few hours they are active. Nizoral is has benefits as well (I use it too), but it`s not powerful enough to be used alone. You need 24 hour DHT reduction in the scalp, only Finasteride or Dutasteride (I`m kinda afraid of Duta though) products are recommended in conjunction with topicals to truly give your follicles a fighting chance.

If you have all your hair and are worried about not losing it during an AAS cycle I would use...
Nizoral EOD (or ED if your head can take it)
AA (am and pm)
Spiro (pm)

If you have lost hair or need to regrow, I would use the products above coupled with
Minox 5% (am and pm)
Finasteride (ED at anywhere from .05 to 1.25 mgs)
Copper peptide products (Folligen, Tricomin, am and pm)

I know that seems like a lot of stuff (it is), however once your hair starts to go, you`ll find it`s generally an uphill battle to try and get it back.

If someone told me I could only have two of the above mentioned products to use, it would be Minox 5% and Finasteride.

Applications of the products are very important, most people despise multiple applcations of solutions in their heads everday, of course. Lets us keep in mind, we as bodybuilders HAVE to eat 5-7 meals per day, train multiple times per week with high amounts of intensity and get good amounts of rest everynight to get optimal results, correct? So then applying some crud on your head haphazardly and taking a pill once a week won`t cut it. Basically if you want to keep or not lose hair - make sure you use the stuff everyday like you are supposed to.

 

[Warthog]

How do you apply gel when using AA, and Spiro. In the morning before you go out do you have to wait for these to dry, then are you able to put gel on your hair??? I just want to make sure there isnt any side effects or what not.

 

[CEDeoudes59]

remember, its not necessarily if you shed - it's if the hair grows back. I shed a ton - but it grows back, only the hairline is having the problem (but thats genetic). Hair transplant in a few years.

as for Nioxin - hardly evidence that it kills DHT or prevents hairloss in anyway, i've tried it - it's awesome shampoo though.

my experience(s) anyway

 

[travbedaman]

How do you apply gel when using AA, and Spiro. In the morning before you go out do you have to wait for these to dry, then are you able to put gel on your hair??? I just want to make sure there isnt any side effects or what not.

I suppose it depends where the hair loss is, my temples are my only problem so I can style my hair and just spray the products on my temples. I don`t use Spiro in the morning cause it`s too hard to apply.

Not sure of what kind of side effects you are speaking of.

 

[Dr. Death]

I suppose it depends where the hair loss is, my temples are my only problem so I can style my hair and just spray the products on my temples. I don`t use Spiro in the morning cause it`s too hard to apply.

Not sure of what kind of side effects you are speaking of.

Is extra shedding using the spiro normal for the first few applications. I was using 5%.

 

[travbedaman]

Spiro can cause excessive shedding during the first few weeks or so. Most of your DHT blocking/reducing products tend to do this. When I first started Finasteride I shed for over a month really bad, but a few months later my hair line looked good once again.

 

[BigVrunga]

For spiro use I would recommend Dr.Lee's 2% solution. It dosent have that spiro stench, and it goes on really easy. Although I experienced some initial shedding with minoxidil, I never had any shedding with a topical anti-androgen.

5% spiro is really potent...when I tried to apply that it practically gave me a chemical burn!

BV

 

[rrgg]

Is that really true about finasteride?

Why does this happen?

 

[travbedaman]

Is that really true about finasteride?

Why does this happen?

When Finasteride enters your system, it begins to stop the formation of DHT. The follicles being affected by DHT fall out slowly (or quickly in some cases), and as they begin to recycle again into stronger follicles, they grow back.

 

[rrgg]

When Finasteride enters your system, it begins to stop the formation of DHT. The follicles being affected by DHT fall out slowly (or quickly in some cases), and as they begin to recycle again into stronger follicles, they grow back.

OK. Your previous message seemed to imply that finasteride would actually be a cause of shedding initially, which made little sense to me. You're really talking about follicles DHT has already reached.

 

[Dr. Death]

What is the story with dr lees consultataion. It says your order will be cancelled if you do not do it. But there is no link to do it. I ordered with no consultation. Will my order really be cancelled. I have not gotton a email yet about a cancellation.

 

[lifted]

What is the story with dr lees consultataion. It says your order will be cancelled if you do not do it. But there is no link to do it. I ordered with no consultation. Will my order really be cancelled. I have not gotton a email yet about a cancellation.

Nope, you just won't receive anything. I tried doing this a couple years ago, because I didn't even know of a consultation....I eventually called them up after waiting a month for my order and they explained everything to me then. There is a link on minoxidil.com somewhere, you'll just have ot look for it.

 

[Beowulf]

For those taking some form of finasteride:

I was reading ALR's Building the Perfect Beast, and he mentions that taking Arimidex and/or Femara can fend of the weakened woody, squishy muscle side effects. I don't have it in front of me, but I can get back with doses if anyone wants.

 

[steve777]

Spiro can cause excessive shedding during the first few weeks or so. Most of your DHT blocking/reducing products tend to do this. When I first started Finasteride I shed for over a month really bad, but a few months later my hair line looked good once again.

good to know. I am using 5% spiro with costco minoxidil and experienced some shedding, which I cannot afford. That was about 6 weeks ago, still hopeful for something to regrow.

 

[John Smeton]

does AA cause shedding

 

[travbedaman]

does AA cause shedding

It does with some people. The thing with shedding is that some people do not really take notice of how many hairs lost in a day until they start using hair loss products on a regular basis. Then most people read about how product X,Y and Z can cause shedding and starts to freak. Someone even with no signs of MPB will lose somewhere between 50-100 per day.

 

[rrgg]

Someone even with no signs of MPB will lose somewhere between 50-100 per day.

I didn't realize the number was that high?

 

[rfbulletdude]

BV how about dutasteride. does anyone have experience w/ it or know where to get it. thanks.

 

[mtruther]

I've heard very mixed opinions on dutasteride, though I've never used it myself. Some report that it causes a host of side-effects, and it's especially likely to cause gyno. Try the forums at www.hairsite.com to pick up some info. Also know that a lot of guys who get results will just disappear from hairloss forums, never to be heard from again. I did.

If you're looking for a place, try House Pharmacy (housepharmacy.com). Also Quality Health Inc., based in the UK. (qhi.co.uk)

 

[BigVrunga]

BV how about dutasteride. does anyone have experience w/ it or know where to get it. thanks.

No idea bro, that's one chem I havent really looked into. Like I mentioned before, my personal experience with hair loss prevention begins and ends with the topicals,which have worked great for me.

It does with some people. The thing with shedding is that some people do not really take notice of how many hairs lost in a day until they start using hair loss products on a regular basis. Then most people read about how product X,Y and Z can cause shedding and starts to freak. Someone even with no signs of MPB will lose somewhere between 50-100 per day.

Trav is right on here...when you start thinking you're losing hair you count every hair you find. Grab a few hairs (~100) between your thumb and index finger and give them a good tug. Its normal for you to loose 3-7 hairs when you do this. Anything a lot more would be cause for concern.

BV

 

[LCSULLA]

Been using Duta since Feb 03 and have had nothing but benifits from it. This being said I have heard of others that loose a large amounts of hair on it and no one knows why.

 

[Max32]

Alright guys, need your advice here. Used AAS in the past with no issues (winny, eq, dbol, test, primo, deca, proviron). Recently started a EQ, prostanazol (prob the culprit) and 4-0HT cyp cycle. Recently, I noticed that the hair right above my temples is slightly thinning. This came as a shock to me as I actually have to cut my hair once a wk (myself) because it grows so fast, and use thinning sheers as it is so damn thick and course. I dropped the prostanazol after 4 weeks, and am continuing the EQ and 4-OHT cyp. I purchased some NIZORAL (non-rx strength) and have been using that 4x wk. I was contemplating using finasteride, as I have never had anything lower my libido, erections, etc.... Any advice guys would be greatly appreciated and I am open to suggestions. I do have some saw palmetto extract at my disposal but am weary of using that if it may infact block testosterone.....
Also, I just ordered some spiro. I would not mind using that at night, but do not want to have to use tsomething during the day, if at all possible.