Gorilla mind Rush

Also, since it was mentioned how 100mg theanine is apparently too low of a dose:

50mg was effective:
The aim of the current research was to establish this effect at more realistic dietary levels. EEG was measured in
healthy, young participants at baseline and 45, 60, 75, 90 and 105 minutes after ingestion of 50mg L-theanine
(n=16) or placebo (n=19). Participants were resting with their eyes closed during EEG recording. There was a
greater increase in alpha activity across time in the L-theanine condition (relative to placebo (p<0.05). A second
study replicated this effect in participants engaged in passive activity. These data indicate that L-theanine, at realistic
dietary levels, has a significant effect on the general state of mental alertness or arousal.
Click to expand...
Invalid Link Removed

The "ideal" amount of theanine, and the ratio of caffeine to theanine is largely subjective, and dependent on a plethora of variables and objectives, as I've mentioned before. More isn't always better, especially when there are also other calming ingredients in the formula like sceletium (kanna) and bacopa. Either way, it's not like 100mg is an "ineffective dose;" it is an effective dose, and has noted (actual/real) synergy with caffeine, as do the other ingredients including ornithine and Theacrine.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Also, since it was mentioned how 100mg theanine is apparently too low of a dose:

50mg was effective:

The "ideal" amount of theanine, and the ratio of caffeine to theanine is largely subjective, and dependent on a plethora of variables and objectives, as I've mentioned before. More isn't always better, especially when there are also other calming ingredients in the formula like sceletium (kanna) and bacopa. Either way, it's not like 100mg is an "ineffective dose;" it is an effective dose, and has noted (actual/real) synergy with caffeine, as do the other ingredients including ornithine and Theacrine.
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Were the people in that study also on 300mg of Caffeine lol?

I think what we are using it for relative to the dosage of stims kind of contradicts the justification of only 100mg, but that's just me.
 
MPMD said:
Were the people in that study also on 300mg of Caffeine lol?

The purpose of what we are using it for is totally irrelevant to that study.
Click to expand...
How about you make your label make some modicum of sense before trying to critique mine? I can't even attempt to evaluate your formula because the label is entirely out of order, and it's not just the caffeine mistake, as I've pointed out.

The entire point of theanine paired with caffeine is to "calm" or "balance" it without being sedating. There are many studies using a wide range of doses of each ingredient, as well as a wide range of ratios of one to the other. Additionally, as I mentioned, the sceletium/kanna and bacopa can also have calming and anxiety reducing effects, which serve largely the same purpose as the theanine; having a higher dose of theanine could make the formula too calming/relaxing for some people, as we found in testing. There's no reason to assume that it's ineffective, and the study does in fact demonstrate that lower doses of theanine have effects. What? Are you saying we absolutely must have a 1:2 ratio of caffeine to theanine? So if I have 250mg caffeine I need to use 500mg theanine, plus other relaxing/calming ingredients? That's insane...

You've made multiple incorrect statements already, like your claim that your 600mg of 50% Alpha-GPC is the "max" dose. That means at your MAX DOSE, which only gives each bottle of your product 15 servings, contains 300mg of ACTUAL Alpha-GPC. Studies using Alpha-GPC for power output (and other uses) often use 600mg or more, so it's asinine to claim that 300mg is the MAX dose. It's an EFFECTIVE dose, but it's actually pretty close to what 250mg CDP-Choline is when we compare the dose ranges of the two. Both are solid; you're just wrong to claim that 300mg of Alpha-GPC is in any way the "max" dose, because it's not.

I could go on, but let's just wait for you to actually post up a label that makes even the least bit of sense...
 
But for sh**ts and giggles, let's go with what you gave us already.

Per 6 capsules (2 full servings) we supposedly have 400mg theanine and 600mg of 50% Alpha-GPC. So for 3 caps (1 serving) that's 200mg and 300mg. Given the 30mg and 20.83mg of each form of caffeine per capsule, that's an additional 152mg between the two per serving (3 caps). Given the 1665mg total blend, and the 652mg we already have taken, that leaves 1013mg for all the rest of the ingredients. Oh, and you mentioned 400mg bacopa per 6 caps, so that's another 200mg per serving, leaving you with 813mg.

Let's see, that's 813mg between ALL of the following ingredients:
-DMAE
-NALT
-Eria Jarensis
-2-amino
-Higenamine
-Black Pepper
-Huperzine

Anyone want to tell me what's wrong with that picture? 813mg isn't even enough for NALT alone... Unless the total dose in the blend is wrong too? But it can't be that much more, as you're not fitting too much more than that in 3 capsules.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
How about you make your label make some modicum of sense before trying to critique mine? I can't even attempt to evaluate your formula because the label is entirely out of order, and it's not just the caffeine mistake, as I've pointed out.

The entire point of theanine paired with caffeine is to "calm" or "balance" it without being sedating. There are many studies using a wide range of doses of each ingredient, as well as a wide range of ratios of one to the other. Additionally, as I mentioned, the sceletium/kanna and bacopa can also have calming and anxiety reducing effects, which serve largely the same purpose as the theanine; having a higher dose of theanine could make the formula too calming/relaxing for some people, as we found in testing. There's no reason to assume that it's ineffective, and the study does in fact demonstrate that lower doses of theanine have effects. What? Are you saying we absolutely must have a 1:2 ratio of caffeine to theanine? So if I have 250mg caffeine I need to use 500mg theanine, plus other relaxing/calming ingredients? That's insane...

You've made multiple incorrect statements already, like your claim that your 600mg of 50% Alpha-GPC is the "max" dose. That means at your MAX DOSE, which only gives each bottle of your product 15 servings, contains 300mg of ACTUAL Alpha-GPC. Studies using Alpha-GPC for power output (and other uses) often use 600mg or more, so it's asinine to claim that 300mg is the MAX dose. It's an EFFECTIVE dose, but it's actually pretty close to what 250mg CDP-Choline is when we compare the dose ranges of the two. Both are solid; you're just wrong to claim that 300mg of Alpha-GPC is in any way the "max" dose, because it's not.

I could go on, but let's just wait for you to actually post up a label that makes even the least bit of sense...
Click to expand...

Did I say you need a 1:2 ratio? No I didn't.

I just said your product is underdosed compared to mine, which it is.

Period. You already know all of the notable dosages except for the DMAE, NALT, and exotic stims. It's not hard to figure out what's going on in the formula, regardless if an ingredient is one line too high or one line too low in the order sequence of a prop blend.

You're literally trying to justify your use of low dosed compounds by telling me about how my maxed out product isn't as maxed out as it could be. Go try shoving 600mg of 100% Alpha GPC into a handful of capsules with a high dosage of 11 other ingredients and let me know how that goes.

The industry standard is 600mg of Alpha GPC 50%. The main study that shows just how effective 600mg is uses Alphasize, which is 50% btw.

You should've just dropped it after we were being cordial and then you had to go dig into a million studies to try and prove that low dosing L-Theanine and Theacrine is actually a good thing.

I can take a small dosage of any drug and get a partial positive effect from it. Is it working, yes. Is it optimal or even close to the stage of diminishing returns? No.

You're a sponsor on here, so people will be buying your product on this board anyways, I have already clarified what I needed to, and you have stated the issues you have with mine and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Your product is decent, mine is better though. End of story.
 
MPMD said:
Did I say you need a 1:2 ratio? No I didn't.

I just said your product is underdosed compared to mine, which it is.

Period. You already know all of the notable dosages except for the DMAE, NALT, and exotic stims. It's not hard to figure out what's going on in the formula, regardless if an ingredient is one line too high or one line too low in the order sequence of a prop blend.

You're literally trying to justify your use of low dosed compounds by telling me about how my maxed out product isn't as maxed out as it could be.

You should've just dropped it after we were being cordial and then you had to go dig into a million studies to try and prove that low dosing L-Theanine and Theacrine is actually a good thing.

I can take a small dosage of any drug and get a partial positive effect from it. Is it working, yes. Is it optimal or even close to the stage of diminishing returns? No.

You're a sponsor on here, so people will be buying your product on this board anyways, I have already clarified what I needed to, and you have stated the issues you have with mine and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Your product is decent, mine is better though. End of story.
Click to expand...
Wong. Neither of our products are "maxed out," but using the absolute maximum dose of every ingredient is an asinine method of formulation. Using an absolute maximum dose of choline and an absolute maximum dose of an AChE-I like huperzine is asking for trouble, which is why we use more reasonable, but still effective, doses of each. Again, your 300mg of Alpha-GPC per 6 caps (2 servings) is NOT a "max" dose by any stretch of the imagination. Effective, yes, max, no. That's simple math really.

Also, so 813mg split between DMAE and NALT, even ignoring the other ingredients, is "max" dosed? 813mg isn't even a solid dose for NALT alone. Even double that, 1626mg, is a low dose of NALT, and that's ignoring the fact the the vast majority of actual research suggests that NALT is ineffective/inefficient prodrug for tyrosine, and inferior to plain old l-tyrosine.

If you still think your product is better, that's your opinion, but excuse me if I don't give it too much weight when your product's label is beyond out of order and doesn't make the least bit of sense.

You're saying what I "should have done." You "shouldn't have" tried to drag my supplement into this when I criticized your supplement. Not to mention that my criticism revealed to you MULTIPLE errors in your label. If that's not constructive criticism, I don't know what is.

How about you get your house in order before trying to fix someone else's?

You must have an amazing view from your glass house my friend...
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Wong. Neither of our products are "maxed out," but using the absolute maximum dose of every ingredient is an asinine method of formulation. Using an absolute maximum dose of choline and an absolute maximum dose of an AChE-I like huperzine is asking for trouble, which is why we use more reasonable, but still effective, doses of each. Again, your 300mg of Alpha-GPC per 6 caps (2 servings) is NOT a "max" dose by any stretch of the imagination. Effective, yes, max, no. That's simple math really.

Also, so 813mg split between DMAE and NALT, even ignoring the other ingredients, is "max" dosed? 813mg isn't even a solid dose for NALT alone. Even double that, 1626mg, is a low dose of NALT, and that's ignoring the fact the the vast majority of actual research suggests that NALT is ineffective/inefficient prodrug for tyrosine, and inferior to plain old l-tyrosine.

If you still think your product is better, that's your opinion, but excuse me if I don't give it too much weight when your product's label is beyond out of order and doesn't make the least bit of sense.

You're saying what I "should have done." You "shouldn't have" tried to drag my supplement into this when I criticized your supplement.

How about you get your house in order before trying to fix someone else's?

You must have an amazing view from your glass house my friend...
Click to expand...

There is 500mg of NALT and there is 750mg of DMAE in the formula. I'd say that's pretty maxed out without having to make someone slam 12 pills per day.

You do realize I didn't invite you to start shredding my statements, I'm here defending the product on a forum I'm not even a member on and then you jumped in out of nowhere, so I replied.

You just so happened to be a rep for a Nootropic formula, so it's completely fair game to drag yours into the mix and compare mine to it.

I'm done now. I hope you are too.
 
MPMD said:
There is 500mg of NALT and there is 750mg of DMAE in the formula. I'd say that's pretty maxed out without having to make someone slam 12 pills per day.

You do realize I didn't invite you to start shredding my statements, I'm here defending the product on a forum I'm not even a member on and then you jumped in out of nowhere, so I replied.

You just so happened to be a rep for a Nootropic formula, so it's completely fair game to drag yours into the mix and compare mine to it.

I'm done now. I hope you are too.
Click to expand...
It's fallacious logic to bring my product into the discussion as a defense for mistakes in your product.

Also, that's per 6 caps (2 servings), right? If it's per 1 serving (3 caps) your label defies the laws of physics and math.

3 caps (1665mg total):

300mg Alpha-GPC (50%)
200mg Bacopa
200mg Theanine
152mg Caffeine (total mg between the two)
500mg NALT
750mg DMAE

That's already 2102mg, which, if you really sit down and crunch the numbers, is greater than 1665mg. So I assume that's per 6 capsules (2 servings).

If you think 500mg NALT per day is even close to a "max" dose, then I don't even know why I'm bothering to discuss this with you. Studies on tyrosine tend to use at least 2g, which is 4x your "max" dose.

If you can't get an effective dose of an ingredient in a reasonable amount of capsules, maybe just don't use that ingredient in a capped formula? Crazy concept, I know.

If you're "done now," does that mean that we're not going to see a fixed label?

You didn't have to "invite" me to critique your supplement; it's a forum where we discuss supplements. I'd argue that I'm more within the rules of the forum to criticize your product than you are to come here defending your producct, if you want to be technical. I'm not saying you're not "allowed" to criticize my supplement, but it's fallacious logic to try to defend your product by criticizing mine.

The craziest thing is that it was my "shredding" of your formula that revealed to you MULTIPLE MISTAKES on your label. How about taking that feedback and fixing it instead of trying to criticize my formula?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
It's fallacious logic to bring my product into the discussion as a defense for mistakes in your product.

Also, that's per 6 caps (2 servings), right? If it's per 1 serving (3 caps) your label defies the laws of physics and math.

3 caps (1665mg)

300mg Alpha-GPC (50%)
200mg Bacopa
200mg Theanine
152mg Caffeine (total mg between the two)
500mg NALT
750mg DMAE

That's already 2102mg, which, if you really sit down and crunch the numbers, is greater than 1665mg. So I assume that's per 6 capsules (2 servings).

If you think 500mg NALT per day is even close to a "max" dose, then I don't even know why I'm bothering to discuss this with you. Studies on tyrosine tend to use at least 2g, which is 4x your "max" dose.

If you can't get an effective dose of an ingredient in a reasonable amount of capsules, maybe just don't use that ingredient in a capped formula? Crazy concept, I know.

If you're "done now," does that mean that we're not going to see a fixed label?
Click to expand...

The full formula is 6 capsules, 3310mg. 500 NALT is per 6, and 750 DMAE per 6 caps. I know you're going to try and pick at my marketing points, the dosages we are using are very high for a 6 capsule product, and you literally are trying to justify in your own product using lower dosages that have synergy with others.

Our product can be purchased for $26.99 with a code, and flash sales go for $19.99 on our website. So please refrain from comparing the serving sizes to your product as well at your price point.

And ya, I know, why would you use a subpar amount of product, at all, maybe just don't use it?

Good call, go pull half your formula.
 
MPMD said:
The full formula is 6 capsules, 3310mg. 500 NALT is per 6, and 750 DMAE per 6 caps.

Our product can be purchased for $26.99 with a code, and flash sales go for $19.99 on our website. So please refrain from comparing the serving sizes to your product as well at your price point.

The label will be updated yes.

And ya, I know, why would you use a subpar amount of product, at all, maybe just don't use it?

Good call, go pull half your formula.
Click to expand...
What "subpar" doses am I using? When I say "ineffective doses" I mean less than the lowest dose shown to have benefits. Your 500mg NALT is less than the lowest dose shown to have benefits, unless you're aware of some research I'm not. And even then, like I said, the vast majority of research shows that NALT is an inefficient prodrug for tyrosine, which itself should be dosed at a minimum of 2g.

What in my formula is "subpar?"

-300mg Bacgonize which has studies showing it's efficacy at the exact dose of the exact extract?
-250mg CDP-Choline and 100mcg huperzine-A, which both are effective doses, and both work to effectively increase AChE? Dosing both higher is not necessary; they're both effective alone, even more so together.
~250mg Caffeine? Of course caffeine works.
-250mg l-ornithine HCL? The exact dose shown to potentiate caffeine.
-25mg sceletium? The exact dose used in multiple studies.
-20mg Noopept? The exact dose used in one of the only human studies? Also note that if Noopept is truly similar to piracetam, then there is also likely synergy between it and choline, as synergy has been noted (in rodents at least) between piracetam and choline, which means that we likely don't even need this much really.
-100mg theanine? I already showed that half that dose is effective, and that there are multiple other ingredients that work with the theanine to balance out the caffeine. It may not be a "max" dose, but it is 100%, irrefutably an "effective" dose.
-50mg Theacrine? It may not be the "optimal" dose, but again, it's paired with caffeine and several synergistic ingredients. Like I said, caffeine has been shown to improve Theacrine's absorption, so it's "better" than 50mg Theacrine alone. Plus the solid dose of caffeine, which is itself potentiated by the theanine and the ornithine.

Half my formula? Your math in calculating "half" is just as bad as your ability to put your ingredients in the correct order.

And I thought you were done here?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
What "subpar" doses am I using? When I say "ineffective doses" I mean less than the lowest dose shown to have benefits. Your 500mg NALT is less than the lowest dose shown to have benefits, unless you're aware of some research I'm not. And even then, like I said, the vast majority of research shows that NALT is an inefficient prodrug for tyrosine, which itself should be dosed at a minimum of 2g.

What in my formula is "subpar?"

-300mg Bacgonize which has studies showing it's efficacy at the exact dose of the exact ingredient?
-250mg CDP-Choline and 100mcg huperzine-A, which both are effective doses, and both work to effectively increase AChE? Dosing both higher is not necessary; they're both effective alone, even more so together.
~250mg Caffeine? Of course caffeine works?
-250mg l-ornithine HCL? The exact dose shown to potentiate caffeine?
-25mg sceletium? The exact dose used in multiple studies?
-20mg Noopept? The exact dose used in one of the only human studies? Also note that if Noopept is truly similar to piracetam, then there is also likely synergy between it and choline, as synergy has been noted (in rodents at least) between piracetam and choline?
-100mg theanine? I already showed that half that dose is effective, and that there are multiple other ingredients that work with the theanine to balance out the caffeine. It may not be a "max" dose, but it is 100%, irrefutably an "effective" dose.
-50mg Theacrine? It may not be the "optimal" dose, but again, it's paired with caffeine and several synergistic ingredients. Like I said, caffeine has been shown to improve Theacrine's absorption, so it's "better" than 50mg Theacrine alone. Plus the solid dose of caffeine, which is itself potentiated by the theanine and the ornithine.

Half my formula? Your math in calculating "half" is just as bad as your ability to put your ingredients in the correct order.

And I thought you were done here?
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It's cool dude, you win. I should've stopped several replies ago.

When I was on YouTube and people posted ridiculous troll comments I would always just shrug it off because that's easy, but when someone starts to pick apart something I majorly invested in and dumped a ton of my knowledge into and take a lot of pride in I take it far more personally than I should.

Wish you the best of luck dude. Take care.
 
MPMD said:
It's cool dude, you win. I should've stopped several replies ago.

When I was on YouTube and people posted ridiculous troll comments I would always just shrug it off because that's easy, but when someone starts to pick apart something I majorly invested in and dumped a ton of my knowledge into and take a lot of pride in I take it far more personally than I should.

Wish you the best of luck dude. Take care.
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Just got my bottle. Too late in the day to try it. Many thanks for the generous offer to "put your money where your mouth is."
 
MPMD said:
It's cool dude, you win. I should've stopped several replies ago.

When I was on YouTube and people posted ridiculous troll comments I would always just shrug it off because that's easy, but when someone starts to pick apart something I majorly invested in and dumped a ton of my knowledge into and take a lot of pride in I take it far more personally than I should.

Wish you the best of luck dude. Take care.
Click to expand...
But was I entirely off base? If you think my comments are "ridiculous troll comments," then you really need to reevaluate some things. My statements were based on your label that was riddled with errors. If your label was not inaccurate and out of order, I likely wouldn't have made the comments I did, as the formula would have looked much better, and the statements you made wouldn't have come off as incorrect, as you weren't aware that the label was wrong. Similarly, if I hadn't pointed out the mistakes and "picked apart" your formula, you wouldn't have been aware of the multiple mistakes that were made. Now you are, so it was a beneficial conversation/debate for you, as you can now fix said mistakes.

Again, now that you've cleared things up, it's a solid formula at the 6 capsule serving, and it's fairly priced. That's not my issue, and the majority of my issues have been cleared up now that I know you made multiple mistakes on your label. I still disagree that it's better or the best, but to each his own; I can respect you standing by your product. Peace, and no hard feelings.
 
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Ive yet to try any good noot formulas and this one sounds pretty interesting. If you need anymore loggers holler at me. I work a full time job, raise 6 children, and manage to squeeze in 3-4 workouts a week when I can. Energy, focus, and mental clarity is definately challenging in my home lol.
 
MPMD said:
Nobody lost any deal, my code still works perfectly fine on all available products brother.

In regards to Gorilla Mind Rush, yes I "pimp the fuk out of it" because I literally formulated it and have been promoting it since I launched it in 2017.

If you read some background info on the product, you would know that the reason there is a prop blend is because we didn't want anyone to rip off the formula. Most people who rely on a manufacturer or "supplement expert" to formulate their product are completely clueless when it comes to making a great formula as they don't actually use these products in their life at all, and are oblivious to the fact that manufacturers will run ingredients that aren't necessarily the best choices for an effective product (they will almost always suggest you use whichever ingredients give them the best margins and run the fastest on their production line as to not backup other orders they have to run).

In addition regarding the prop blend to protect the formula, this is not uncommon, and if you know what the efficacious dosages are of any of these ingredients as a vet Nootropics user and you look at the total mg amount on the label (3310 mg per 6 caps), it is quite easy to put 2 and 2 together and see that a full 6 cap serving is maxed out in every single ingredient in this product. Even half of that still blows all other mainstream Nootropic products out of the water.

As far as Noopept, that is not a DSHEA compliant ingredient, I actually had that in our original formula and had to remove it once I learned that anything that doesn't derive from nature and is blatantly synthetic is not a dietary supplement ingredient, and would no longer make your product FDA compliant. Anyone selling a formula with that in it is taking a gamble. Sulbutiamine is also synthetic, so that's a no go.

Trust me, if I could load up a Nootropic with things like racetams, I would.

If I could have, I would have kept the Noopept in there obviously, you have to understand there are ridiculous limitations in the industry. You can't just go down a list and pick out every ingredient you want and throw it in a bottle and say yep this is a dietary supplement.

If you are unable to put 2 and 2 together on the mg totals, feel free to shoot me an email and I would be happy to breakdown some more specifics on the formula side of things. I am not afraid to put our product beside any other Nootropic in the industry and confidently say that it completely smokes them.

Once this batch is done, we will more than likely open up the formula too on the next batch we manufacture just so we can avoid skepticism like yours. I didn't think we would have any push back from anyone to be honest, but there are still going to be individuals who want everything crystal clear despite the stated mg totals, which is obviously understandable.

We will be adding free samples to the site soon too so you don't need to roll the dice on your $29.99

And yes, you are wrong. I promise you that. I have had a script for pharma grade Modafinil for 6 years now, and I truly prefer Rush. Try it and tell me I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

Weak. Plenty of company's use both, know why, they work better than the crap people are putting in Noots now.
 
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