girl in my homeroom doesnt stand for pledge

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It was a immature comment, you don't know why she didn't stand, perhaps a medical issue, no one knows, so since everyone is so big on saying anything, that's my take, like it or not!!

401 was my dorm number in college,not area code
 
I can appreciate anyones position with a good argument. I'm just curious as to HOW it was immature.

The thing is...I'm sure if it was a "medical condition" like you brought up, it would have been blatantly obvious during the course of the year. If she cannot stand up for the pledge, she probably couldn't walk to and from class. So, if she is walking to and from class, and if she puts herself into and pulls herself out of her chair, I'm sure its not a medical condition.

If it were a medical condition, I"m sure davisville would have know.

I'm not saying he's some kind of authority on civil liberties, I'm just saying given the circumstances, I'm sure his assessment of "her" was right, and that he made a good point when he said that she was most likely seated as a demonstration of her disdain for America.

I am NOT condoning the pen throwing and in the initial post by davisville, he was wrong when he said she should have to stand up. I was just defending that one comment because it seems to me the ONLY argument you had against it was his age, which is a lame excuse for an argument, IMO.

Age has little to do with immaturity, unless we're speaking of the physical kind....And, furthermore, immaturity has little to do with intelligent discussion, and moreso with the lack of ability to partake of that discussion. Davisville doens't have a problem with discussion, and IMO, is a good kid. This shows maturity on my part....not to say I haven't seen posts by him (or anyone, myself included...many times over :D) that weren't immature. And, aside from his (usually) high level of maturity for a 17 year old, he also has made some good points in certain situations.

I don't see any reason to invalidate any of his arguments simply because of his age.

IF you have the ability to invalidate one of his arguments, do it the MATURE way--not by using his age to nullify his logic.
 
See...did it again...I need to slow my fingers down....instanced should have been instances, and there were a handful of typos, etc in the other post....*sigh* Oh well...
 
granby140 said:
im sure our forefathers would would be giving her **** for not showing respect towards the flag. If u dont like it or dont respct leave. simple as that. U dont have to love it but u have to respect it
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Our forefathers didn't give respect to the British flag.

age has NOTHING to do with maturity. i do not appreciate anyone putting anyone down because of their "age" or lack of. im sure we all know people that are immature at the age of 50, 60, 90, etc.... who are complete idiots.
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I agree. The age-aphobia (I know thats not the right name) gets too carried away on this board. Don't expect your opinions to be taken seriously until you are 10-15 years older.

I respect the flag. I said the Pledge of Allegiance daily and always sang at the National Anthem. I'm proud to live in America but one of the great freedoms about America is that you shouldn't be outcasted for your views (unless they harm others). Thats what this nation was built on. So telling people to get out of the country is a slap in the face to our forefathers. As long as treason isn't committed, they have a right to talk badly against America.

Its very clear this girl has issues (its not a medical reason) but thats her prerogative to sort it out. We've all had times where we're angry at the world and we came to realize the truths of the world, accepted it, and became better people. Telling someone to get out is never going to work out for anyone.
 
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I wonder why is there a debate regarding someone not standing for the National Anthem. It's her god given right not to stand and it's her constitution right not to stand. It's also her damn business not to stand. Why are you all in her business? Do you feed and cloth her? Is she your child? Did I wake up in China, Germany 1938-1945, or Iraq?


Why should people leave America because people like you want them to act a certain way, dress a certain way or look a certain way or even worship a certain way? Who gave you the right to say, who live or stay in America? I think Quickride mention Nazi Germany in his post and your way of thinking fit that era of thinking in Germany. I guess you were a sleep in history class because all this regarding human rights was discuss in your history class. I guess you should change your user name to the�SS" or Nazi Police because those are the people that rounded up all the people that were different or didn’t salute or stand for Hitler or his Anthem.

You may not like what certain people do and that's your right because this is AMERICA and not a country that design their citizen to be robots. You can learn a lot from history and the rights of other people.


Get a life and stop worrying about other people and worry about yourself because life is too short to be worrying about someone else because life is not design to run according to your actions. When you enter the real world, you will find out a lot of people don't think or act like you and your friends.
 
Again, I feel compelled to ask, what America do you believe this is? The one which stands for tolerance and liberty, or the one which can't handle dissent and individuality?

Here is a page of quotes from Veterans including Bob Kerrey on why a Constitutional Amendment banning desecration of the Flag should not be passed: Invalid Link Removed

Here is my favorite response on the page:

As a Vietnam veteran who lives daily with the consequences of my service to my country, and as the son of a WWII combat veteran, and the grandson of a WWI combat veteran, I can attest to the fact that not all veterans indeed perhaps most veterans do not wish to exchange fought-for freedoms for protecting a tangible symbol of these freedoms. I oppose this amendment because it does not support the freedom of expression and the right to dissent.

Now, 31 years, 1 week and one day following the loss of my legs in combat, I am again called upon to defend the freedoms which my sacrifices in combat were said to preserve. It's been a long 31+ years. I have faced the vexing challenge of reconciling myself with the reality of my military history and the lessons I have learned from it and the popular portrayal of veterans as one dimensional patriots, whose patriotism MUST take the form of intolerance, narrow-mindedness, euphemisms, and reductionism-where death in combat is referred to as making the ultimate sacrifice and the motivation for service and the definition of true patriotism is reduced to dedication to a piece of cloth.

The strength of our nation is found in its diversity. This strength was achieved through the exercise of our First Amendment right to freedom of expression-no matter how repugnant or offensive the expression might be. Achieving that strength has not been easy-it's been a struggle, a struggle lived by some very important men in my life and me.

I am offended when I see the flag burned or treated disrespectfully. As offensive and painful as this is, I still believe that those dissenting voices need to be heard. This country is unique and special because the minority, the unpopular, the dissenters and the downtrodden, also have a voice and are allowed to be heard in whatever way they choose to express themselves that does not harm others. The freedom of expression, even when it hurts, is the truest test of our dedication to the belief that we have that right.

Free expression, especially the right to dissent with the policies of the government, is one important element, if not the cornerstone of our form of government that has greatly enhanced its stability, prosperity, and strength of our country.

Freedom is what makes the United States of America strong and great, and freedom, including the right to dissent, is what has kept our democracy going for more than 200 years. And it is freedom that will continue to keep it strong for my children and the children of all the people like my father, late father in law, grandfather, brother, me, and others like us who served honorably and proudly for freedom.

The pride and honor we feel is not in the flag per se. It's in the principles that it stands for and the people who have defended them. My pride and admiration is in our country, its people and its fundamental principles. I am grateful for the many heroes of our country-and especially those in my family. All the sacrifices of those who went before me would be for naught, if an amendment were added to the Constitution that cut back on our First Amendment rights for the first time in the history of our great nation.

I love this country, its people and what it stands for. The last thing I want to give the future generations are fewer rights than I was privileged to have. My family and I served and fought for others to have such freedoms and I am opposed to any actions which would restrict my children and their children from having the same freedoms I enjoy.

-Gary May, who lost both legs to a landmine explosion while serving in Vietnam
Evansville, Indiana

Excerpted from testimony given before the Senate Judiciary Committee on April 20, 1999
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Brooklyn: :goodpost: I agree completely. I may not like that some people don't agree with me, but I do enjoy the fact that they are able to voice their opinion, even though it may bug the hell outta me. :)
 
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toughchick401 said:
so since everyone is so big on saying anything, that's my take, like it or not!!

401 was my dorm number in college,not area code
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ahhhh rawr rwar ...spazzzzz fizz..... lol...j/k sweetie :)
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Canada is a nice place.....there are just too many damn socialist hippies there :blink:
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I'd agree with that.

Though, can't all be gun totin warmongers. Need some diversity :)
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
I guess you actually missed my posts where I at least make an attempt to explain my positions, unlike yourself and someone else.
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What specifically are you talking about? Most of my comments have been directed towards the general theme of this thread.

In a lot of males, I think age does equal maturity and this is coming from a male who HAD to, by circumstance, act and be older than I was as a kid and teen.

I'll agree with you that age shouldn't be used to substantiate or disqualify an argument or position. Yet, at the same time, I think some of the comments in this thread have shown people to be very immature and more importantly - grossly ignorant.
 
houseman said:
What specifically are you talking about? Most of my comments have been directed towards the general theme of this thread.

In a lot of males, I think age does equal maturity and this is coming from a male who HAD to, by circumstance, act and be older than I was as a kid and teen.

I'll agree with you that age shouldn't be used to substantiate or disqualify an argument or position. Yet, at the same time, I think some of the comments in this thread have shown people to be very immature and more importantly - grossly ignorant.
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I can be immature at times, but that's just my personality (just ask my wife); but I never say anything grossly ignorant. The Canada comment was a joke. I hope you know that.
 
natedogg said:
I can be immature at times, but that's just my personality (just ask my wife); but I never say anything grossly ignorant. The Canada comment was a joke. I hope you know that.
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Oddly enough, that wasn't actually directed towards you. lol
 
Davis, you're exactly right. If you don't like the way some people act differently in this country you should get the hell out. I think you would do well a place like Iran where girls can't wear skirts that show thier vagina, there's no need for birth control pills in highschool cause you'd get stoned to death for getting pregnant without being married, there is no freedom, and everyone shares the exact same superstitious beliefs about god.
 
granby140 said:
im sure our forefathers would would be giving her **** for not showing respect towards the flag. If u dont like it or dont respct leave. simple as that. U dont have to love it but u have to respect it
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Sorry kid, that's not how this whole 'freedom' thing works. I think people should stand and at least respect the flag BUT its their right not to and I'm not going to become 'Mr Fascist' and force them to do it "or leave"

If you don't like the freedoms given to people in this country, then WHY DONT YOU LEAVE?!? :hammer:
 
toughchick401 said:
Agian I dont have to justify my thoughts, age =immaturity most of the time! I will not reply to this again:ntome:
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Wisdom here... :hammer:

Age DOES have a huge effect on maturity and immaturity... Why? Because your perception of maturity changes as you get older, you begin to understand WHAT maturity really means. At 17 years of age, you havent had enough life experiences to even understand the definition... hell at 20-21 most people are just starting to understand. I'm about to hit 25 and I know I've got a long ways to go :)

There are always those that ARE mature at young ages... my sister is a great example. 22 years old, married to someone she's in love with (and he's a great responsible, intelligent guy)... she got her Nursing degree with a 3.5GPA at the #2 nursing school in the USA, got married a week later, then bought a house 1.5 months afterwards with her own money. But she's immature in other ways... there are lots of different types of maturity. Some about fiscal responsibility, emotional maturity; hell getting up on time in the morning and getting to work is maturity... Its a lot more complex than young people think :) (I'm sure there's lots more to know, because I'm not exactly old myself ;) )
 
Bean said:
Wisdom here... :hammer:

Age DOES have a huge effect on maturity and immaturity... Why? Because your perception of maturity changes as you get older, you begin to understand WHAT maturity really means. At 17 years of age, you havent had enough life experiences to even understand the definition... hell at 20-21 most people are just starting to understand. I'm about to hit 25 and I know I've got a long ways to go :)

There are always those that ARE mature at young ages... my sister is a great example. 22 years old, married to someone she's in love with (and he's a great responsible, intelligent guy)... she got her Nursing degree with a 3.5GPA at the #2 nursing school in the USA, got married a week later, then bought a house 1.5 months afterwards with her own money. But she's immature in other ways... there are lots of different types of maturity. Some about fiscal responsibility, emotional maturity; hell getting up on time in the morning and getting to work is maturity... Its a lot more complex than young people think :) (I'm sure there's lots more to know, because I'm not exactly old myself ;) )
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I believed this up until about my 20th year. Then I took an objective look at the adults i know and then I realized maturity is a trait, not a characteristic earned with age.

Almost as if maturity is synonymous with civility and ignorance. Some people are just never civil, some can never accept the truth, and some a combination of both.

Yes, there is a small positive correlation between maturity and age, but, when you're basically an adult, it should NOT be the deciding factor. Not by any means. I know plenty of 18 year old kids who are more mentally "mature" than their so called "elders".

You show maturity in your decisions, your ability to accept the truth, and your ability to treat other civily. Based on that criteria, I would say there most certainly IS NOT a large enough correlation between age and maturity to say the generalization holds true once a person is at or near his/her adult years.

And, dont let yourself be fooled into thinking being seasoned to life is a prerequisite to maturity. A total spaz can have dealth with, for example, trying to make the bills while living week to week. A person can have dealt with that situation, and done so wrongly, and in an immature fashion, whereas if you stuck some 18 year old kid in the same situation, he may handle it much better.

Point..if your entire argument is based off of someones age, its not only weak, its baseless and entirely embarassing.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
I believed this up until about my 20th year. Then I took an objective look at the adults i know and then I realized maturity is a trait, not a characteristic earned with age.

Almost as if maturity is synonymous with civility and ignorance. Some people are just never civil, some can never accept the truth, and some a combination of both.

Yes, there is a small positive correlation between maturity and age, but, when you're basically an adult, it should NOT be the deciding factor. Not by any means. I know plenty of 18 year old kids who are more mentally "mature" than their so called "elders".

You show maturity in your decisions, your ability to accept the truth, and your ability to treat other civily. Based on that criteria, I would say there most certainly IS NOT a large enough correlation between age and maturity to say the generalization holds true once a person is at or near his/her adult years.

And, dont let yourself be fooled into thinking being seasoned to life is a prerequisite to maturity. A total spaz can have dealth with, for example, trying to make the bills while living week to week. A person can have dealt with that situation, and done so wrongly, and in an immature fashion, whereas if you stuck some 18 year old kid in the same situation, he may handle it much better.

Point..if your entire argument is based off of someones age, its not only weak, its baseless and entirely embarassing.
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My entire argument is not based off someone's age :) I never said it was a requirement... but most of the time >age = >maturity... ESPECIALLY between ages of 18-21 vs 25-30... at this point people get out of college, they finish their masters, and/or they start a family, etc... things that 'normally' go along with a certain age range that add up to the potential maturity factor.

But the point I'm trying to make, is you're not really qualified to call yourself mature... I'm sure at 20 years old you thought you were pretty smart because you could reflect on something and no one else couldnt. :lol:

I dont think you understand HOW 'baseless and entirely embarassing' a child sounds when they claim they're 'mature'. Mature people don't care enough about it to really give two shits. And they definitely don't go around trying to justify their maturity either.

I'm not going to start slinging mud here, but I could.... It's quite tempting, actually.

But I'm mature, and I don't let people get to me like that ;) :dance: :dance: :dance: :cheers: :lol:

My biggest point, is a person is very immature if they think someone should 'get out' of a country if they are merely acting out their rights written in by law.
 
Bean said:
My entire argument is not based off someone's age
But the point I'm trying to make, is you're not really qualified to call yourself mature... I'm sure at 20 years old you thought you were pretty smart because you could reflect on something and no one else couldnt.
I dont think you understand HOW 'baseless and entirely embarassing' a child sounds when they claim they're 'mature'. Mature people don't care enough about it to really give two shits. And they definitely don't go around trying to justify their maturity either.

I'm not going to start slinging mud here, but I could.... It's quite tempting, actually.
< My biggest point, is a person is very immature if they think someone should 'get out' of a country if they are merely acting out their rights written in by law.
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#1 : why do U mr. beano think that you are "qualified" to label kwyche as mature or not? please tell me . i can tell you by my personally knowledge that he is older than his years and has achieved alot in his life mentally, acedemically and eventually finacially. im extremely proud of him! EVERYONE that meets him soon realizes that he is a very knowledgable and put together individual. if you havent noticed, even his posts around the boards, are well constructed and usually have ample references, unlike most people who argue and have no idea what they are arguing about!

#2 kwyche NEVER said that he thought it was mature if someone said "'get out' of a country if they are merely acting out their rights written in by law." i know he doesnt believe that at all SO DONT SHOVE WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH

#3 get off your high mr. powerman box and quit thinking you are so much smarter and mature than people. thank you and have a nice day!
 
Mrs. Gimpy! said:
#1 : why do U mr. beano think that you are "qualified" to label kwyche as mature or not? please tell me . i can tell you by my personally knowledge that he is older than his years and has achieved alot in his life mentally, acedemically and eventually finacially. im extremely proud of him! EVERYONE that meets him soon realizes that he is a very knowledgable and put together individual. if you havent noticed, even his posts around the boards, are well constructed and usually have ample references, unlike most people who argue and have no idea what they are arguing about!

#2 kwyche NEVER said that he thought it was mature if someone said "'get out' of a country if they are merely acting out their rights written in by law." i know he doesnt believe that at all SO DONT SHOVE WORDS INTO HIS MOUTH

#3 get off your high mr. powerman box and quit thinking you are so much smarter and mature than people. thank you and have a nice day!
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And THIS ladies and gentlemen is why significant others shouldn't be posting at the same places where their counterpart belongs.

Let kwycke agrue his own battles (not that there WAS a battle) and stay out of it.

Man!
 
its okay baby :)

I don't think he was referring to "me" as saying "I" support kicing someone out of the country. He was referencing davisville...he said that.
 
houseman said:
And THIS ladies and gentlemen is why significant others shouldn't be posting at the same places where their counterpart belongs.

Let kwycke agrue his own battles (not that there WAS a battle) and stay out of it.

Man!
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im just a tad defensive when people are rude to the person who i love more than anything and everything. i know kwyche can argue his own, i dont need to be told that.
 
houseman said:
And THIS ladies and gentlemen is why significant others shouldn't be posting at the same places where their counterpart belongs.

Let kwycke agrue his own battles (not that there WAS a battle) and stay out of it.

Man!
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This goes on amongst other members as well...I don't see your point.

We've all, yourself included, popped our heads into someone elses conversation.

Chill. She didn't say anything mean, bad, wrong, etc.

You being an ass isn't fixing anything. All it does is make you an ass.
 
Bean said:
My entire argument is not based off someone's age I never said it was a requirement... but most of the time >age = >maturity...
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And I said, yes there is a correlation, but it’s a lame excuse for an argument.

When I said that, I was referencing “toughchick401” who refused to say anything else other than “you’re young and immature”.

But the point I'm trying to make, is you're not really qualified to call yourself mature... I'm sure at 20 years old you thought you were pretty smart because you could reflect on something and no one else couldnt.
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I never called myself mature. But, if I was asked to label myself, I’d say that I’m damn mature. I’m defined by my actions and there are few I’ve made that I’d regret for many years.

I dont think you understand HOW 'baseless and entirely embarassing' a child sounds when they claim they're 'mature'. Mature people don't care enough about it to really give two shits. And they definitely don't go around trying to justify their maturity either.
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I don’t know if you understand how ridiculous it sounds calling someone 2 years younger than yourself a child. Who is trying to justify their maturity? I just said that determining someones argument is worthless based on their age is lame and in most cases, I’d assume it was just a method of dodging the argument because that person had no retort.

I'm not going to start slinging mud here, but I could.... It's quite tempting, actually.
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Sling away…I mean, if its so tempting, I’d hate to see you blunt your temptation for poor defenseless kwycke.
My biggest point, is a person is very immature if they think someone should 'get out' of a country if they are merely acting out their rights written in by law.
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Something I agree with. However, that was ONE post by davisville. And, that wasn’t necessarily a case of immaturity, but rather one of lack of education on the matter. I see some people have a hard time distinguishing the two. How did he respond when people said “you can’t just go kicking people out of the country for things like that?” His response in that situation would be a better indicator of his maturity level. As I said before, you show maturity in your decisions, your ability to accept the truth, and your ability to treat others civilly.

He made a few other posts, some of which were pretty good, and some people decided to write him off or ignore his posts because of his age. That’s ridiculous.

Hell, this whole maturity thing is irrelevant. An immature person can bring a good argument, too. And, if they do, the argument should be treated as it is…a good argument. It’s the fact that an argument was ignored because of someones age that is just absolutely ridiculous.

Point (to all): if davisville makes a good argument, please respond with something reasonable. He a good kid.He may have ideology issues with some of us, myself included, but I don't ignore what he says because of his age. Rather, I'd recommend doing the "mature" thing and educated him on the issues. From there, you can sling "mature and immature" around like there is tomorrow based off of how he responds to "facts" and how he interacts with you.

If he lied about his age in his profile, this issue never would have popped up...think about it. If that's the case, then age is an irrelevant issue.
 
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This reminds me of the past 2 elections that were almost both 50/50. Its sick that the nation is that divided.

My input...

A nation that is divided cant stand. Is it her right not to stand for the flag, sure. Is it her righ to drop out, sure. But, if more and more people start doing this, we will (as a country) fall apart.
 
Tiftan090 said:
Davis, you're exactly right. If you don't like the way some people act differently in this country you should get the hell out. I think you would do well a place like Iran where girls can't wear skirts that show thier vagina, there's no need for birth control pills in highschool cause you'd get stoned to death for getting pregnant without being married, there is no freedom, and everyone shares the exact same superstitious beliefs about god.
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Am I the only one who wants to know where these girls are in this country? I mean, the discussion is mildly interesting, but this sounds like a nice place to be.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
This goes on amongst other members as well...I don't see your point.

We've all, yourself included, popped our heads into someone elses conversation.

Chill. She didn't say anything mean, bad, wrong, etc.

You being an ass isn't fixing anything. All it does is make you an ass.
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She didn't add any value to the thread with that post she made! She got defensive about someone (apparently) taking shots at you. She got defensive because she is your fiance. NO OTHER REASON.

You can handle your own arguments without your fiance trying to "have your back".
 
Hell, this whole maturity thing is irrelevant. An immature person can bring a good argument, too. And, if they do, the argument should be treated as it is…a good argument. It’s the fact that an argument was ignored because of someones age that is just absolutely ridiculous.
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They can but the problem comes in when a pattern has been established in that said person has shown their arguments to be flawed because of their immaturity, lack of education or any other factor which would was used originally to discredit them.

It's called living in the real world and not many people have the ability, at first thought, to look past the person's previously lacking arguments to acknowledge that their current argument is worthy. Apparently you have that ability. Cudo's.
 
houseman said:
.... not many people have the ability, at first thought, to look past the person's previously lacking arguments to acknowledge that their current argument is worthy....
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LOL...I guess you're right there. :D
 
houseman said:
She didn't add any value to the thread with that post she made! She got defensive about someone (apparently) taking shots at you. She got defensive because she is your fiance. NO OTHER REASON.

You can handle your own arguments without your fiance trying to "have your back".
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EEExxxccussssee mee......sorry i caused you to spaz spaz spaz fizzz...

i dont see why you want to make a big deal about it. sooorrrryyyy. other people go around and get defensive, etc...but just because its common knowledge that i am kwych's fiance, its suddenly NOT okay to add my own two cents. thanks buddy.

i guess you are adding "value" as you like to call it to this thread by being a complete asshole and yell at me for taking shots and then by showing by example of how i should act, you take shots at me. riiiiggghhtt.....
 
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