Getting rid of gyno: What worked for me

GotTest said:
I see what you're saying here Movin'. I'm still having a hard time grasping the increase in est receptor sites in an area that it is antagonist to. (I'm a chemist NOT an MD):D
I'm going to throw this to a couple Doc's to get there response/explanation and I'll be sure to throw it over here.

I'm gyno prone myself. First cycle Dbol back in the 80's with no gyno. Pushed the envelope on the second cycle with double dosing and WHAM, gyno left nip.(No post cycle therapy back then.)
Then the 90's with PH's... 19Nor 5diol great size, but off cycle WHAM gyno right nip.
Year 2007- Now I'm on Epi and seeing a decrease(not elimination) in gyno and sensitivity with GREAT gains. Going into post cycle therapy soon with above mentioned SERMS to choose from.

This cycle was completely based on gyno response with PH used. Epi seemed to have the best results as far as gyno goes, so I jumped on this train. Now to avoid the gyno during and after PCT....
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Yeah that would be good to here somethin straight from a doc... I just read alot and anylyze what i read to the best of my ability so it should all be taken for piece of mind more than anything since i am not an MD either.

however when i say an increase in receptors i do not mean that the drug itself increases receptors in the breast area.

You are 100% correct that SERMs are antagonists in breast tissue which means that they block or depress the actions of the estrogen receptor sites in breast tissue plain and simple

However the human body is extremely complex and versitile and whenever an external drug is introduced to the body, the body has a reaction to maintain it's homeostasis

The body does not want something to come in and block all it's estrogen receptors in breast tissue, as this does not maintain the natural balance of hormones... so in reaction to the drug doing this, the body increases receptors in order to try and give the estrogen somewhere to bind... basically it then becomes a foot-race between the SERM and estrogen as to who reaches the receptor first, and with high doses the SERM will usually win (unfortunately i have failed to find studys that have been done regarding this action, but we are talking about a drug that was used to block estrogen in cancer cells, not neccessarily to cure gyno or come off a cycle)

But this is also why we taper off SERMS, so the body gradually allows the binding of estrogen to return to normal without a big surge in estrogen binding (what we call rebound) even with the long half life of SERMs of you go from taking 60mg ed to nothing, your going to experience some serious issues

Another example of the body trying to maintain homeostasis is when we take androgens/steroids... the bodys reacts to these drugs by shutting down natty test production... and then eventually if the drugs are taken for a long period of time, the body will down-regulate androgen receptors which is why we don't continue to see gains for an infinite amount of time
 
AM07 said:
Do SERMs create more estrogen receptors permanently, or just while you're using them?
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Totally rad video in your avatar by the way, love George Carlin. It's a shame somebody used it to throw Ron Paul references in there, but still a good message :)
 
I noticed bioman mentioned melatonin "for more estrogen control". I've read of this elsewhere. It says that melatonin acts as a serm, and ai, and also acts to lower circulating blood levels of estrogen. All this at the same time!! This led me to go out and get some. It's cheap, so why not! Has anyone else read of this? I'd like to see more than what I've found just on a google search.
 
thundergod said:
I noticed bioman mentioned melatonin "for more estrogen control". I've read of this elsewhere. It says that melatonin acts as a serm, and ai, and also acts to lower circulating blood levels of estrogen. All this at the same time!! This led me to go out and get some. It's cheap, so why not! Has anyone else read of this? I'd like to see more than what I've found just on a google search.
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I think that you'd have to take high doses to achieve those effects. There are much better products created specifically to control estrogen than melatonin. Plus, taking melatonin for any extended period of time will cause the body to stop producing it naturally which isn't something you want.
 
Thanks for the input Reverend--- Yeah, I know there are better thngs out there to lower estrogen. I'm taking a formestane/6-oxo transdermal blend right now. It's GREAT!!! I'm getting 125 mg. of form and 200 mg. of androstenetrione per day. I just read about the melatonin a few days ago and it perked my curiosity. What kind of doses does anyone think you'd have to take of melatonin to achieve some estrogen lowering? Please someone?
 
I've read the opposite about melatonin having estrogenic effects and being possibly counterproductive in post cycle therapy. Not that this is conclusive and I'm sure just about any idea can be manipulated to support or oppose the desired concept.
 
im thinking of a possible DHT, Letrozole, Aromasin combo transdermal. I would have to figure out the ideal dosing and concentrations of the formula tho....

THink it would be effective?
 
pistonpump said:
im thinking of a possible DHT, Letrozole, Aromasin combo transdermal. I would have to figure out the ideal dosing and concentrations of the formula tho....

THink it would be effective?
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Wow....bye bye estrogen. Your joints will hurt like that of a 200 year old man.
 
pistonpump said:
im thinking of a possible DHT, Letrozole, Aromasin combo transdermal. I would have to figure out the ideal dosing and concentrations of the formula tho....

THink it would be effective?
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Hey man, I have a small case of gyno that freaking annoys the living he** outta me. Lets get together(through PM or in this thread) and list all the individual things, combos, stacks, dosages, results, etc.. that we've tried before. Maybe we can get DR.D in here and have him take a look at our layout. Id do anything to get rid of mine. Its really the main reason that I never truly bulk. I dont mind a slight increase in bf, but I feel like my condition worsens and it just makes me constantly recomp or cut. I'll try to find my old supp logs and post some of the things Ive tried. In the meantime, if anybody has used a certain layout with great results, please let us know. I think Ive tried everything, but Im up for suggestions.
 
ugab37 said:
Hey man, I have a small case of gyno that freaking annoys the living he** outta me. Lets get together(through PM or in this thread) and list all the individual things, combos, stacks, dosages, results, etc.. that we've tried before. Maybe we can get DR.D in here and have him take a look at our layout. Id do anything to get rid of mine. Its really the main reason that I never truly bulk. I dont mind a slight increase in bf, but I feel like my condition worsens and it just makes me constantly recomp or cut. I'll try to find my old supp logs and post some of the things Ive tried. In the meantime, if anybody has used a certain layout with great results, please let us know. I think Ive tried everything, but Im up for suggestions.
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he pm me bro or email me at pistonpump at hush.com....me and johnfaceman are probably gonna work on this transdermal. Hit me up with whatever you have and ill respond with my side.
 
Question to the OP, the atd that you used to reduce your gyno along with the ralox, was this topical or oral? Also, what are your thoughts on throwing something like yohimburn or Avant Napalm into the mix?
 
Good ol' Nolvadex with 6-oxo got rid of mine. I started @ 40/300mg, and worked my way down. The gyno virtually vanished, but even still I get a weird sensivity in my chest from time to time. I know I'll be dealing with it again next cycle.
 
bigbb123 said:
Question to the OP, the atd that you used to reduce your gyno along with the ralox, was this topical or oral? Also, what are your thoughts on throwing something like yohimburn or Avant Napalm into the mix?
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in another thread RR said his choice of ATD was Novedex XT.
 
I'm glad I saw this thread because usually people advice others to take things that they havent tried them selves or not even heard they worked for anyone.

A little backround on my gyno, Ive been fat between 17-20yo i am now 21 and went down in weight from 265 to 212 now and added some muscle all naturally. just run in the morning and lift weights at night. Then i took Proscar fro my hair and It gave me gyno there are lumps under the nipple and the nipple is cone shaped and it also made my ''boys'' smaller, it is a mild case nothing to big but i can wear a dam t-shirt and feel confortable.





Now i got some questions.

Raloxifene seems the most effective as far as I have researched but dont know where to buy it from. Did you use this for 10weeks as opposed to the 6wk going down to 30 EOD to reduce any side effects and rebound, also the capsule is 60mg do u cut it in half.

Pls tell my why u needed to take ADT with Ralox, for most pple Ralox was enough. What do you guys thing about Using Rebound XT with Ralox which is the only ADT ive researched about so far because I heard it will reverse gyno and make ure testis bigger. half the pple who took this have great results and the other half either had no results or claim to have killed thier sex life for ever and became setrile. I dont know who to belive.

As far as possible side effects Im expecting a bit of hair thinning and less energy in the sex department temporarly, anything else i should know about.

Also about ure ''back up plan'' what was this about. Was this to deal with rebound.




anything you guys can answer will be greatly appreciated. Sorry if my questions are a little mess my question mark button doesnt work lol and I am a bit tired from writing an essay.
 
Be sure to do your homework. Your questions tell me that your research is severely lacking.

Ralox has a reputation for blood clots. I would not recommend 10 wks of Ralox personally.

If you got gyno and testicular atrophy from a prescribed medication, your doctor who prescribed the medication should help you legitamently and legally deal with the side effects.

Edit: now that I see this is your first post, it's actually not too bad of a question. Welcome to AM :cheers:
 
thnx for the welcome. My conditions are not that bad. The doctor told me it is common side effect, which he didnt tell me before prescribing this thing :mad: . Then said to get off this drug which didnt do much except made my body haryier, gave me gyno and shrunk my eggs a little. Im kind of tired of talkin to doctors because from what i experienced it seems all they do is prescribe drugs they know little about these days. Now im off the drug for 4 months and still have the gyno, Im not sure but i could be smaller than before. I am going to give the Ralox a try thnx4 the advice.

By the way can anyone talk about some of the other question I asked pls.
 
Anyone know if tenderness of the nipple is a sign of gyno?? I have been experiencing this for the past month or so, but do not have any lumps or hardening going on??
 
celc5 said:
Ralox has a reputation for blood clots. I would not recommend 10 wks of Ralox personally.
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ahhh, the blood clot issue. now, if you read the literature carefully it seems that this risk, while pretty small, also exists for tamo (probably more so than ralo, if i interpret the data correctly). in fact, this is IMHO the main issue with tamo, not the overblown liver toxicity. if 1% of >2.000 users get blood clots in 3 years, but 0 are reported for liver issues, the hepatic issues so often focused on can't be that bad?

Tamoxifen and raloxifene are estrogenic in the liver, and they increase the liver's production of blood-clotting proteins. This results in a slight increase in the risk of stroke, particularly in women who are at high risk for these events (ie, cigarette smokers, those with a past history of blood clots). Higher levels of clotting proteins also increase the risk of blood clots in the major veins of the leg (deep vein thrombosis) and migration of such a blood clot to the lungs (pulmonary embolus). The risk may be slightly lower with raloxifene compared with tamoxifen.
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both tamo and ralo should not be used if you:

-Have a history of deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary embolism
-Require anticoagulant or blood thinning medications
-Smoke (!!!)
-Are obese
-Have severely impaired kidney function

it is thus strongly recommended to supplement with blood thinning compounds during SERM use, such as fish oil. it is also recommended to avoid blood thickening agents.

however, one must not overdramatize this. it is more a theoretical risk if you are a member of the abovementioned risk groups. otherwise, the risk of blood clots with raloxifene is similar to that associated with hormone replacement therapy (HRT) - in women, which also mostly affects high risk groups.

one may also wish to stop using this if suffering major injury or undergoing surgerery.

also, drug-drug interactions with other... items (such as AIs) MAY possibly cause half-life increases, thus indirectly inceasing effective serum levels over time.

now, all that sounds bad, right?

now, let's look at some real numbers. 7705 participants, 36+ months:
Invalid Link Removed
Venous thromboembolic events, including deep vein thrombophlebitis and pulmonary embolism, were the only serious adverse effects believed to be causally related to raloxifene treatment; by 40 months, venous thromboembolic events had been reported by 8 (0.3%), 25 (1.0%), and 24 (1.0%) of all patients in the placebo, the 60 mg of raloxifene, and the 120 mg of raloxifene groups, respectively.
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other studies seem come to similar results, with an average increase of odds between 54% and 91% Invalid Link Removed

i.e. the relative increase of the risk compared to non-users seems high at first glance, BUT the overall risk and amount of occurences is still pretty low (<1%), even with long-term treatment. we now also have to consider the duration of the trials, which usually last many months to several years, and that we have no information on the beneficial impact that supplementation with blood thinning agents (fish oil) may have, nor on the relative risk for young, healthy, athletic malse, compared to postmenopausal women. also, one must consider that it is entirely unclear how many of those affected belong to one of the abovementioned risk groups (smokers etc.). were all of those smokers? none? were all of those obese? none? unfortunately we don not have the details for the individual cases which developed problems, but if we look at the large size of the cohort, including subjects from all individual and combined risk groups, and the probably strong impact of risk factors such as smoking and obesity can we exclude that possibly almost all events occured for those with increased risk due to secondary factors anyway? and that, in fact, if you don't belong into the high-risk groups (non-smoker, non-obese), the actual risk may possibly be exceedingly small?

check also:
There were no clinically important changes in hemotologic, renal, or hepatic function laboratory, assessments.
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- in ~5000 ralo users, half at high dose (120mg). seems pretty safe aside from the blood clot issue.

an interesting fact on adverse effects:

A pooled analysis of data showed that raloxifene use had to be discontinued in 11.4 percent of women compared with 12.2 percent of the women who received placebo
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all-in-all, it's a risk-benfit analysis, as always. is the benfit worth the risk?

not to downplay the issue, but compared to the risk of taking methylated orals from shady chinese sources or injectables from mexican vet labs for the sake of a few lbs... i am pretty much convinced that ralo is comparatively safe. if we check 7000 users of AAS ofer 3 years, i'm pretty sure that we'd get slightly (lol) more adverse effects than 1%...

basically, if i look back at the last 2 years, i seem to remember about 1 case of feedback of blood clots possibly in conjunction with tamo use in PCT.

so far, the blood clot issue seems mostly an urban legend, based on possible misinterpretation of statistical data which may not be applicable to our target group.

T.I.
 
pistonpump said:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Interlocutor again
good post, nice research.
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i may be wrong on occasion, but at least i like to roughly know what the things do that i shove down my piehole.

unfortunately, the supplement and anabolic steroids scene is abound with urban legends, rumours, fiction and wishful thinking. "someone said", "i heard that", "I've read somewhere" (and we all know: if it's on the internet, it's true!) etc. etc.

if some fat blob kiddy that compounds one fu@ked up cycle with the next and doesn't know post cycle therapy from a rubber duck provides potentially deleterious advice on public forum (not talking about here) and has the same credibility than sinner, dinoii or Dr. John, then it gets extremely diffcult for the noob (or even not-so-noob) to sieve the gold from the stones.

some people tend to hand out 3rd hand advice on compounds they have never used themselves, or even if they have used them, clearly have no understanding about them. others may know better, but have their own agenda in spreading misinformation (esp. certain company reps). add to that that the internet greatly helps to proliferate misinformation and urban legend through the copy-paste capabilities we enjoy - and i think it clearly becomes better to look up stuff oneself at the source, if possible, than blindly believing everything a random guy (like myself) spews forth on a random forum.

always consider that for everything i may say you may find 3 counterpositions if you just search long enough. and some of those may be, in fact, more valid than mine (has happened, will happen again).

switching off unfounded euphoria as well as fear, and switching on one's own brain is the best and safest route to travel, IMHO.

whenever someone on the subjects we are discussing here tells you something "as fact", try to find out the source of his position, the data from which he derived his position, the interpretation and the reasoning behind the interpretation. more often than not you'll get the usual "I've heard/read it somewhere" etc. without cross-checking yourself that's then pretty worthless information.

matthew76 said:
How would Torem help in this situation?
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there is extremely little hard fact available on toremifene concerning gyno (to new on the market). it MAY be a great compound, better than anything else. or it may not. an ongoing clinical trial using toremifene to prevent morphometric vertebral fractures in men undergoing medical and/or surgical castration may provide some additional data on the effects of selective estrogen receptor modulators in men.

you may try a 6 month course of torm and achieve nothing. or you may kill your gyno after 3 months. if you try it, let us know the outcome. anecdotal data is better (vastly) than no data at all.

T.I.
 
realcheeze said:
I'm glad I saw this thread because usually people advice others to take things that they havent tried them selves or not even heard they worked for anyone.

A little backround on my gyno, Ive been fat between 17-20yo i am now 21 and went down in weight from 265 to 212 now and added some muscle all naturally. just run in the morning and lift weights at night. Then i took Proscar fro my hair and It gave me gyno there are lumps under the nipple and the nipple is cone shaped and it also made my ''boys'' smaller, it is a mild case nothing to big but i can wear a dam t-shirt and feel confortable.





Now i got some questions.

Raloxifene seems the most effective as far as I have researched but dont know where to buy it from. Did you use this for 10weeks as opposed to the 6wk going down to 30 EOD to reduce any side effects and rebound, also the capsule is 60mg do u cut it in half.

Pls tell my why u needed to take ADT with Ralox, for most pple Ralox was enough. What do you guys thing about Using Rebound XT with Ralox which is the only ADT ive researched about so far because I heard it will reverse gyno and make ure testis bigger. half the pple who took this have great results and the other half either had no results or claim to have killed thier sex life for ever and became setrile. I dont know who to belive.

As far as possible side effects Im expecting a bit of hair thinning and less energy in the sex department temporarly, anything else i should know about.

Also about ure ''back up plan'' what was this about. Was this to deal with rebound.




anything you guys can answer will be greatly appreciated. Sorry if my questions are a little mess my question mark button doesnt work lol and I am a bit tired from writing an essay.
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Good luck with your problem bro.

ATD might cause a loss of libido or lethargy. But it shouldn't if you keep the dosage low.

Remember, raloxifene is a breast cancer drug. Its not specifically for gyno, although it works in some people.

I would also recommend to keep up the cardio, as losing weight helps with gyno.
 
thnx for the advice fellas, the loss of libido is only temporary right. also is it a capsule or tablet, if it is capsule how do u divide the 60mg in to 30mg
 
realcheeze said:
thnx for the advice fellas, the loss of libido is only temporary right. also is it a capsule or tablet, if it is capsule how do u divide the 60mg in to 30mg
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all the pharma-grade ralo versions i've seen so far (no research liquids) are tabs. easy to break in half.

T.I.
 
3 more questions before I start this.

1. Does anyone know if Rebound Xt is a good choice with Ralox.

2. As I understand Ralox is a prescription drug In Canada, so if i buy this off the net, could it get me in trouble, i am buying this off a canadian website.

3. Also could using a fat burner be a bad idea combined with this. I have a bottle of lipozene, I am planning to use it or buy lipo6 and start doing more cardio to try to lose some body fat when my school is over.
 
Oh my god...im so happy i found this thread. I need all the help i can get. I am 21rys old and I have done ph for the last 2 yrs. It al went great until i did sustonol250 from IDS, and didnt use a serm. I went to the doctor and got gyno. I used tamo/ATD and it went away then did a halo/tren cycle and it returned, but on the left nip. Did epi/nolva and it went away. Now, i started Mdrol(superdrol) and within 5 days(10mgs) my left nip is starting to puff out. Looks like i am going to get it again. Should I jump ship and start atd/nolva? And if so, i only have 14tablets of nolva(20mgs). is that enough? 20mgs for 14days has done wonders for me. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys. Also, i just want advice in general for possible cycles of any kind of great product. I love the pumps/strength from Mdrol and want to know if anyone has any other recommendations.
 
unless you get surgery the gyno even tho may seem to have gone away, once you use a hormonal compound or steroid its most likely to aggrivate it and it will come right back up again. get used to AIs and SERMs.....its the only way you can continue cycling, which would not be reccommended if you would like the gyno to stop growing. You should research thouroughly before taking steroids and cycling in general.
 
thanks bro. i really appreciate it. i decided to just do 14 days of 20mgs of nolva, or until it goes away again. along w/ an AI. I really wanted to try 11oxo or something mild of that sort. You got any suggestions? The only product that i can take is epistane. it made my gyno go away. Do you think AXs new products are legit w/ their 25spirostan crap?
 
research. first of all you are taking this thread off topic. do research on the product, look for reviews etc. use the search function. Start your own thread if needed for your own questions its just common courtesy on a board like this. and most of all TRY NOT TO BE SUCH A NEWB!
 
been reading on this forum and some others about gyno and like others, my gyno is from puberty. I had no idea what it was and dind't go to the doctor when I was 18-19yo. I had like nickel size rocks under my nips and would even lactate. then it went away. Of couse the tissue is still there + I do have some fat around my chest and abdomen. Not really fat though. about 15% bodyfat. I now am 28 and even though the gyno isn't a huge deal, I notice as we all do. I am self conscience.

I suppose I will attempt some topical cream, with an ATD and lots of cardio. Possibly take epi @ 20mgs daily for 5 weeks followed by PCT.

I've used SERM'S numerous of times the past 10 years, but after 10 years of a usefull source I've found myself all alone. Clomid I have always used PCT but never taken Tamox/Ralox standalone for the issue. It always seemed to reduce on cycle and after.

any suggestions for the legal route guys?
 
AM07 said:
Do SERMs create more estrogen receptors permanently, or just while you're using them?
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I know EVISTA or Raloxifene has a multiple-dose mean plasma elimination half-life of 32.5 hours, and it does not accumulate into the bone matrix...

With The average peak plasma concentration in Tamoxifen of 40 ng/mL (range 35 to 45 ng/mL) occurred approximately 5 hours after dosing. The decline in plasma concentrations of tamoxifen has a terminal elimination half-life of about 5 to 7 days.

As the half-life of toremifene is long, it takes 4-6 weeks for the concentration to reach a steady state.
 
Rob Awesome said:
I know EVISTA or Raloxifene has a multiple-dose mean plasma elimination half-life of 32.5 hours, and it does not accumulate into the bone matrix...

With The average peak plasma concentration in Tamoxifen of 40 ng/mL (range 35 to 45 ng/mL) occurred approximately 5 hours after dosing. The decline in plasma concentrations of tamoxifen has a terminal elimination half-life of about 5 to 7 days.

As the half-life of toremifene is long, it takes 4-6 weeks for the concentration to reach a steady state.
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huh?
 
ImJ2x said:
huh?
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In response to a question posed - I was looking through pubmed and these were the average half-life of the drugs listed - as it doesn't create more estrogen receptors permanently from my understanding... just temporary. I may be wrong. SERMs aren't my "specialty". Sorry.
 
Rob Awesome said:
In response to a question posed - I was looking through pubmed and these were the average half-life of the drugs listed - as it doesn't create more estrogen receptors permanently from my understanding... just temporary. I may be wrong. SERMs aren't my "specialty". Sorry.
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OK, thanks.
[I understood his question; I just didn't understand your answer, lol.]
 
pistonpump said:
you read this on pubmed? If it takes that long then it is clearly a horrible SERM for use in PCT. THis has me thinking now.......
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This is why I'm an old school Clomid man! I don't particulary like Nolva either. More toxic than the gear one took during their cycle usually. Clomid will blow your balls UP!! :woohoo: THE THUNDERGOD:hammer:
 
pistonpump said:
you read this on pubmed? If it takes that long then it is clearly a horrible SERM for use in PCT. THis has me thinking now.......
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I'm being recognized by the Kinesiology department this evening - so I have to take off for the remainder of the day (with the family).. I'm graduating in 6 days from UMass Amherst - so I'll be happy to locate the lit review and post it up asap!

Thanks.
 
Rob Awesome said:
I'm being recognized by the Kinesiology department this evening - so I have to take off for the remainder of the day (with the family).. I'm graduating in 6 days from UMass Amherst - so I'll be happy to locate the lit review and post it up asap!

Thanks.
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Congratulations, new guy.
:clap2:
 
ImJ2x said:
Something blew your back up, Thunder. Nice lats.
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I really appreciate that man! I didn't know they looked that good either. I never see them perfectly from behind in mirrors. So my wife took the pics, and I was like, "Damn"! I've been hitting them from some different angles for the last couple of months and I believe it's working. I still don't know how to spread them out fully when properly doing a latspread anyway. lol ha ha THE THUNDERGOD:hammer:
 
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