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get a serm, there's no excuse (newbs read this!)

i mean works for me, where to begin though lol. but seriously, my knowledge probably isnt as extensive as yours being that your in the medical feild am i am not. i just do my research and go by subjective veiws, and come up with my answers regaurding the research.

either way, its past my bed time i got class in the am, Anatomy and physiology actually lol

Believe me crazy, it's not you so much i have an issue with. It's a certain individual that hasn't a fukcin clue about anything he talks about (Especially in regard to hormonal pathways), yet gives advice like it's candy.......scary sh*t!......scarier yet, he's a rep. :lol: :rolleyes:
 
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I personally Ran HDX2 and it was AWESOME. ATD has always increased my libido when used on or off cycle. Seriously the ONLY thing I have had problems with was massive rebound of est after using 6-OXO following a SD cycle and got gyno... which is why I advocate SERM usage so stringently.

Any of the AI's mentioned are steroidal to a degree and ALL at higher doses are suppresive as they begin to interact with the AR moreso then test and the body ceases production once again.
 
I personally Ran HDX2 and it was AWESOME. ATD has always increased my libido when used on or off cycle. Seriously the ONLY thing I have had problems with was massive rebound of est after using 6-OXO following a SD cycle and got gyno... which is why I advocate SERM usage so stringently.

Any of the AI's mentioned are steroidal to a degree and ALL at higher doses are suppresive as they begin to interact with the AR moreso then test and the body ceases production once again.


I think 6-Bromo or ATD are both great for running along with aromatizing AAS :thumbsup: With the exception of Anadrol and SD of course.
 
now Im not knocking 6-oxo either... shoot Im taking TD trione @ 200mg ed right now and lovin it! just hope the rebound was more from SD and not the OXO my last encounter so I wont have any problems this time around!
 
now Im not knocking 6-oxo either... shoot Im taking TD trione @ 200mg ed right now and lovin it! just hope the rebound was more from SD and not the OXO my last encounter so I wont have any problems this time around!

What cycle are you coming off of Poopy?

I am doing good man how about you? Long time no see.
 
A 2 week loooooow dose (1.5-3mg) of the original m-TRN just to recondition real quick.... been in "pct" for 3 days and still gaining... also was waaaay atrophied from the last months of working in the so cal heat, down to 170 and already back up to 183 now. Also taking anabolic pump, plsin prework out with micronized creatine pre and post and now just running torem and trione transderm with cycle support..... but I will be taking a short leave again here in the near future and back again in a month and a half at most.... poops got in trouble.
 
A 2 week loooooow dose (1.5-3mg) of the original m-TRN just to recondition real quick.... been in "pct" for 3 days and still gaining... also was waaaay atrophied from the last months of working in the so cal heat, down to 170 and already back up to 183 now. Also taking anabolic pump, plsin prework out with micronized creatine pre and post and now just running torem and trione transderm with cycle support..... but I will be taking a short leave again here in the near future and back again in a month and a half at most.... poops got in trouble.

Great to see you back in the swing of things poops!!

As for the trouble, T1 has your back buddy. Stay strong and you'll be back before you know it. It's the power of the POOP!!!!!
 
i mean look im done with my cycle in a few weeks, i have a SERM and an AI,

IF I GET REVERSITOL ill run it with testostolyze by species nutrition. instead of the SERM AND AI

i will also be getting blood work next week (juss gotta make the apt so by the time it comes back i know where my levels are at and can further see where im at.) then a few weeks after PCT ill get blood done again, if im low, then your right the OTC way is not how it should go. and then ill start my therapy with clomid and Adex.

that sound fair with regaurds to PCT and REAL blood work from someone who is unsponsored?

then when PCT is Completed, i will be more then happy to SCAN my results. for before during and AFTER the cycle.
 
A 2 week loooooow dose (1.5-3mg) of the original m-TRN just to recondition real quick.... been in "pct" for 3 days and still gaining... also was waaaay atrophied from the last months of working in the so cal heat, down to 170 and already back up to 183 now. Also taking anabolic pump, plsin prework out with micronized creatine pre and post and now just running torem and trione transderm with cycle support..... but I will be taking a short leave again here in the near future and back again in a month and a half at most.... poops got in trouble.

Nothing wrong with a little get back into the swing of things cycle.

Hope everything works out for you PP.
 
i mean look im done with my cycle in a few weeks, i have a SERM and an AI,

IF I GET REVERSITOL ill run it with testostolyze by species nutrition. instead of the SERM AND AI

i will also be getting blood work next week (juss gotta make the apt so by the time it comes back i know where my levels are at and can further see where im at.) then a few weeks after PCT ill get blood done again, if im low, then your right the OTC way is not how it should go. and then ill start my therapy with clomid and Adex.

that sound fair with regaurds to PCT and REAL blood work from someone who is unsponsored?

then when PCT is Completed, i will be more then happy to SCAN my results. for before during and AFTER the cycle.

I thought you were going to bed? :p

Honestly though, like i've said before crazy online lab posting is nothing more than entertaining. The factor of numerous unknowns makes the overall testing irrelevant.

It surely is nice to see though, but not much to gain any objective thoughts from however. Blood work is nice to see, but purely subjective in this environment.
 
OK this is becoming a childish thread so I wanna say a couple things here.

First off T1, you call people on a lot of **** but perhaps you can enlighten us. As UncFan1 said, you post it and we will read. Some of us less retarded ones are actually here to read the almighty posts of the medicinal fathers, such as yourself. Perhaps you aren't the all-knowing guru of all things endocrine? Well it is in fact how you are coming off on this thread, but I have yet to see you offer any of your wisdom to us. Objectively, perhaps you should know that.

The reps on this forum bicker more than newbs do...

Secondly. I blame the lack of information on the companies themselves.. IBE, RPN, et all. I do not believe this industry should be as buyer beware as it is. The poor weight lifters of this day have to do endless research. Not because knowledge is key to their success, but because we have numerous companies pumping out b1tch tits in a pill and putting all responsibility of dealing with that on the consumer then calling them retards when they order the product, consume it and deal with the consequences. The big picture is completely fragmented and none of you "leaders" are making it clear to any one.

I give reps to AI for being the pioneers in OTC PCT who are at least trying to help out the average joe that goes to NP, order some **** that tells them will grow them some mean mass and doesn't know the consequences because they are not blatantly spelled out ANYWHERE.

This is like buying a car with no brakes, not explicitly being told it has no brakes, then calling the person a retard for crashing the car.

You designer companies and you reps need to get your sh1t together and stop blaming the rest of us for your lack of education of your products and EXACTLY how to use them and EXACTLY how to avoid the many side effects that the average consumer obviously does not know about.
 
OK this is becoming a childish thread so I wanna say a couple things here.

First off T1, you call people on a lot of **** but perhaps you can enlighten us. As UncFan1 said, you post it and we will read. Some of us less retarded ones are actually here to read the almighty posts of the medicinal fathers, such as yourself. Perhaps you aren't the all-knowing guru of all things endocrine? Well it is in fact how you are coming off on this thread, but I have yet to see you offer any of your wisdom to us. Objectively, perhaps you should know that.

The reps on this forum bicker more than newbs do...

Secondly. I blame the lack of information on the companies themselves.. IBE, RPN, et all. I do not believe this industry should be as buyer beware as it is. The poor weight lifters of this day have to do endless research. Not because knowledge is key to their success, but because we have numerous companies pumping out b1tch tits in a pill and putting all responsibility of dealing with that on the consumer then calling them retards when they order the product, consume it and deal with the consequences. The big picture is completely fragmented and none of you "leaders" are making it clear to any one.

I give reps to AI for being the pioneers in OTC PCT who are at least trying to help out the average joe that goes to NP, order some **** that tells them will grow them some mean mass and doesn't know the consequences because they are not blatantly spelled out ANYWHERE.

This is like buying a car with no brakes, not explicitly being told it has no brakes, then calling the person a retard for crashing the car.

You designer companies and you reps need to get your sh1t together and stop blaming the rest of us for your lack of education of your products and EXACTLY how to use them and EXACTLY how to avoid the many side effects that the average consumer obviously does not know about.

This is a really awkward post. I like how you lump EVERYONE together as well. Did you not know AI and IBE are closely associated?

That aside, the case here is NOT that theres been numerable cases of guys getting Gyno from Epi and or Havoc, quite the contrary.

We Reps are still consumers and I have been on these boards giving out the SAME ADVICE for YEARS. I am here where I CAN reach the consumer and where they can come to reach us. We are here telling the people exactly what you said we should be telling them! I personally havnt been combative in the least merely addressing each point of reference individually and correcting where needed so the others reading this are not misinformed.

BTW the AI products are all labeled blank blank SUPPORT! not entire OTC PCT and I promise you if you ask Crowler if he thinks its an sufficient one stop supplement for PCT and restarting HTPA he will stop you dead in your tracks and let you know otherwise. Its a GREAT health SUPPORT supplement which will cover the MANY angles you need to cover (bloodpressure, cortisol, Anti oxidants, Liver detoxifier, SHBG blocker and testosterone support/optimizer) not and end all be all OTC PCT SUPP. You still need a serious compound for these serious anabolics. No one is hiding anything here and it sounds more like you are upset with something else and venting here with a very unnecessary blanket statement.

-Spence
 
OK this is becoming a childish thread so I wanna say a couple things here.

First off T1, you call people on a lot of **** but perhaps you can enlighten us. As UncFan1 said, you post it and we will read. Some of us less retarded ones are actually here to read the almighty posts of the medicinal fathers, such as yourself. Perhaps you aren't the all-knowing guru of all things endocrine? Well it is in fact how you are coming off on this thread, but I have yet to see you offer any of your wisdom to us. Objectively, perhaps you should know that.

The reps on this forum bicker more than newbs do...

Secondly. I blame the lack of information on the companies themselves.. IBE, RPN, et all. I do not believe this industry should be as buyer beware as it is. The poor weight lifters of this day have to do endless research. Not because knowledge is key to their success, but because we have numerous companies pumping out b1tch tits in a pill and putting all responsibility of dealing with that on the consumer then calling them retards when they order the product, consume it and deal with the consequences. The big picture is completely fragmented and none of you "leaders" are making it clear to any one.

I give reps to AI for being the pioneers in OTC PCT who are at least trying to help out the average joe that goes to NP, order some **** that tells them will grow them some mean mass and doesn't know the consequences because they are not blatantly spelled out ANYWHERE.

This is like buying a car with no brakes, not explicitly being told it has no brakes, then calling the person a retard for crashing the car.

You designer companies and you reps need to get your sh1t together and stop blaming the rest of us for your lack of education of your products and EXACTLY how to use them and EXACTLY how to avoid the many side effects that the average consumer obviously does not know about.

Maybe if you searched around a bit more on this board you'd find it. I've started a few threads on helping people to understanding blood work results alone (most recently on liver function testing.) I never said i was "The guru of all things endocrine," however far too many people give advice that don't understand what they're talking about to begin with. That is what's disturbing here.

You certainly have a lot of ballz to say companies are pimping "B1tch tits in a pill." As poopy said, read around and you'll see that the episodes of "gyno" are few and far between. If someone develops something like gyno, the first thing many do is take the easy way out and blame "The compound", not themselves, or something they may have done to exacerbate this potential issue. Every individual case may have a seperate issue of onset or exacerbation.

Many aromatizable compounds (and even the possibility of direct estro stimulation as may be the issue with SD) can and will exacerbate this type of issue. There are SO many unknown factors overall with people posting online, how can you truly come to an accurate conclusion about how it formed? Should we go on blind faith that the user followed a solid plan and proper pct when reading things of this nature online? :rolleyes: I'd check yourself before throwing out subjective and broad inflammatory statements as you've done here.

If anything, RPN goes out of our way to interact with the consumers, and answer any questions that need be. I can't even tell you how much goes on behind the scenes in that regard. I answer numerous PM's daily of various question types. Why don't you check out some of my write-ups? Pretty informative overall i think.

It's time to get this thread back on point now.
 
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Secondly. I blame the lack of information on the companies themselves.. IBE, RPN, et all. I do not believe this industry should be as buyer beware as it is. The poor weight lifters of this day have to do endless research. Not because knowledge is key to their success, but because we have numerous companies pumping out b1tch tits in a pill and putting all responsibility of dealing with that on the consumer then calling them retards when they order the product, consume it and deal with the consequences. The big picture is completely fragmented and none of you "leaders" are making it clear to any one.
You have valid points. The industry is what it is but you cannot blame the industry for consumer ignorance as much as you can't blame McDonald's for obesity.

For every post I have read that supports OTC PCT I have read equal that support SERM PCT. They are from affiliated, non-affiliated, law abiding, non law abiding, gurus and newbies.

I have read newbies and gurus saying to use a SERM and an AI for PCT. I have read gurus and newbies saying to use only a SERM and never an AI for PCT.

I know everyone here posting in this thread and respect all of their contributions. I do not make my decisions based on people and personalities. I make my decisions based on data. tried and true data.

It has be hypothesized that after a cycle you have elevated estrogen levels (depending upon amount of aromatase from given androgen) and >low levels of testosterone. This is likely true, but depending upon how aromatase was handled and/or the amount of androgen used during cycle, this level of estrogen could vary from high to extremely high. Without real, accurate, and precise data collection (pre/during/post) via blood work this is all speculation on a case per case situation.

In a healthy male this elevated estrogen should promote testosterone production, as we know that they are symbiotic, and have feedback mechanism to support homeostasis. Low levels of testosterone can be cause for a catabolic state, ED, mood issues, depression, etc. Elevated levels of estrogen can be cause for gyno, fat gain, and mood issues as well. In the case of a bodybuilder who accrued new LBM he wants his testosterone levels restored ASAP. Depending upon the individual cycle and amount of inhibition this could take a very long time without the use of chemical assistance. Hence PCT.

My stance on the matter FWIW is that homeostasis is the goal rather than combating and manipulating. Continued combating and manipulating further delays homeostasis.

I believe that the SERM class of drugs has to have the most supportive data of any and all drugs and or herbs used for the purposes of PCT, HPTA and the restoration of the state of homeostasis.

The use of others supplements could or should be used supplemental to a SERM if at all.

This is JMHOFWIW. I don't use either. Steroids are bad.
 
I thought you were going to bed? :p

Honestly though, like i've said before crazy online lab posting is nothing more than entertaining. The factor of numerous unknowns makes the overall testing irrelevant.

It surely is nice to see though, but not much to gain any objective thoughts from however. Blood work is nice to see, but purely subjective in this environment.

i seem to be addicted, lol i wanted to go to bed honestly, but i duno **** juss happens and i end up on here much longer then i want to be


yea it is, but i would do it and scan an actuall copy, i already have a log going on, so it wouldnt be to hard. to juss use those as PCT with 2g trib and see how it goes. im more then positive it will ALL come back to normal.

there seems to be no way to make you happy with blood work unless its your own, many people im sure are willing, but become less willing for the fact that they may be accused of lying.
 
i seem to be addicted, lol i wanted to go to bed honestly, but i duno **** juss happens and i end up on here much longer then i want to be


yea it is, but i would do it and scan an actuall copy, i already have a log going on, so it wouldnt be to hard. to juss use those as PCT with 2g trib and see how it goes. im more then positive it will ALL come back to normal.

there seems to be no way to make you happy with blood work unless its your own, many people im sure are willing, but become less willing for the fact that they may be accused of lying.

I see what Trauma was getting at.

Scanned copy of bloodwork would be great. Do you have baseline numbers too? Are you just getting a hormonal panel or are you getting both that and a full metabolic panel too? That would be great as I get both and if you have good insurance it will cover most.
 
although i do believe in OTC products clomid IS unique, but i also think that other things can be used for OTC steroids and a SERM is not always going to be nesecary.
 
I never quite understood your obsession with OTC AI's over SERMs. As Sol stated earlier with little to no clinical research done on OTC AI's, if there were they'd likely find that their liver toxicity is worse than SERMs. Especially steroidal AI's such as ATD.

Also AI's, especially steroidal will have negative effects on cholesterol levels - which after running a steroid is like throwing sand on the beach. Whereas SERMs such as Nolva and Torem can improve lipids as leaving estro in the body where it's needed. I don't see one advantage of an OTC PCT personally.

As far as bloodwork goes it's always good to see a copy of the actual scanned certificate as anyone could type in whatever they wanted. Also if you draw blood after an AAS cycle from someone who's on a steroidal AI - of course their Test is going to be up. As their cholesterol would be.

I wonder what would happen if someone approached Arnold, Lee Haney, or Jay Cutler who's been using gear non-stop and asked them to use ATD instead of the SERM their circle has successfully used 1,000's of times over the years :think:

Great point, I just wanted to highlight that:thumbsup:

But doesn't Nolva have a neg impact on triglycerides? Prob dose and length dependant.
 
I see what Trauma was getting at.

Scanned copy of bloodwork would be great. Do you have baseline numbers too? Are you just getting a hormonal panel or are you getting both that and a full metabolic panel too? That would be great as I get both and if you have good insurance it will cover most.


i believe i got a full panel, with t3 t4 test liver enszymes cholest ect, all before the cycle.

i need to make an appt because im ON now, and by next week itll be week itll be week 5 of a 7 week oral, (superdrol being the last compound so i can see how shut down i really am

hopefully the blood work will get back real quick,

BTW T1, being your knowledge in the medical feild, how high can liver enzymes raise on a daily basis the day AFTER a workout.?
 
Great point, I just wanted to highlight that:thumbsup:


i believe i have a study that showed no real change or a signifigant positive change in these levels, i may have showed it to Z at one point, but im not at home so im not gunna bother searching. Z probably rread the abstract i sent him
 
i believe i got a full panel, with t3 t4 test liver enszymes cholest ect, all before the cycle.

i need to make an appt because im ON now, and by next week itll be week itll be week 5 of a 7 week oral, (superdrol being the last compound so i can see how shut down i really am

hopefully the blood work will get back real quick,

BTW T1, being your knowledge in the medical feild, how high can liver enzymes raise on a daily basis the day AFTER a workout.?

Thats good. It should include things like Bun, Glucose, Creatinine(sp), etc.
 
i believe i have a study that showed no real change or a signifigant positive change in these levels, i may have showed it to Z at one point, but im not at home so im not gunna bother searching. Z probably rread the abstract i sent him

That an anti-estrogen doesn't have much of impact on cholesterol? When you get home and get the time I would like to see it.:thumbsup:
 
Yah that post was a bit of a blanket statement but it holds truths. I'm not looking to make enemies but I'm at the end of my teather with the amount of gray area that is involved concerned one's health of all things from these products you sell.

You have to understand here, I myself am most likely going to run a cycle in november of ether Epi or Havoc and dermacrine. I have been looking on these forums for months about this stuff and will until November and then even beyond that but I still find myself reading every page of this thread still unsure whether OTC serm can be used for these compounds and all I run into is reps from companies arguing and others calling newbs retards because they don' do research. Well I still don't have the answer I'm looking for and I've been reading on this board daily since May. Either I am a total retard or the information is not readily available to the consumer concerning the TRUE effectiveness of OTC products being pushed along with the designers.

And I know this is how others feel because I am reading their posts from their prospective and I even got repped for my last rant so you know I'm on something. You can take this information as constructive feedback or ignore it and flame me for these posts.


Edit: I have posted my planned cycle in the PCT section days ago asking for a review of it as to not have health complications and I have had only a single response from a rep whose products I haven't even listed.
 
Thats good. It should include things like Bun, Glucose, Creatinine(sp), etc.


yea thats how i roll lol

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its an article about the study, comparing AROMASIN to NOLVADEX

but i think NON steroidal (letro/adex) has more of an impact on cholesterol as opposed to steroidal (aromasin)

although this found it different

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this took me like 5in to find at school.

time for class, i seriously cant stay on to much longer, maybe ill just refresh the screen one more time to see if anyone responded.
 
yea thats how i roll lol

Invalid Link Removed

its an article about the study, comparing AROMASIN to NOLVADEX

but i think NON steroidal (letro/adex) has more of an impact on cholesterol as opposed to steroidal (aromasin)

although this found it different

Invalid Link Removed

I will read these in a few mintues. Thanks for the links.
 
Yah that post was a bit of a blanket statement but it holds truths. I'm not looking to make enemies but I'm at the end of my teather with the amount of gray area that is involved concerned one's health of all things from these products you sell.

You have to understand here, I myself am most likely going to run a cycle in november of ether Epi or Havoc and dermacrine. I have been looking on these forums for months about this stuff and will until November and then even beyond that but I still find myself reading every page of this thread still unsure whether OTC serm can be used for these compounds and all I run into is reps from companies arguing and others calling newbs retards because they don' do research. Well I still don't have the answer I'm looking for and I've been reading on this board daily since May. Either I am a total retard or the information is not readily available to the consumer concerning the TRUE effectiveness of OTC products being pushed along with the designers.

And I know this is how others feel because I am reading their posts from their prospective and I even got repped for my last rant so you know I'm on something. You can take this information as constructive feedback or ignore it and flame me for these posts.


Edit: I have posted my planned cycle in the PCT section days ago asking for a review of it as to not have health complications and I have had only a single response from a rep whose products I haven't even listed.

If you were to go OTC I would def look into I3C.

(2) Estrogenic Channeling Agents

Indole-3-Carbinol

Only one kind of vegetable interferes with the estrogen pathway and that is a cruciferous vegetable. These get there name from the crosslike stem they all have in common, from broccoli to cauliflower. European women who ate more cabbage had lower breast cancer death rate. Cruciferous vegetables decreased the risk by 40 percent in a Wisconsin study. So, how do they work and why would I include this talk of female breast cancer in a study who’s primary target remains males in the post-cycle time frame?

The secret ingredient is called indole-3-carbinol, which channels the breakdown products of estrogen into far more “good” estrogen (2-hydroxyestrone) than “bad” estrogen (16-alpha-hydroxyestrone). As with good and bad cholesterol, you can increase or decrease either amount of estrogen. Indole-3-carbinol can double the amount of good estrogen while decreasing the bad, which the Journal of the National Cancer Institute reported to decrease the amount of “bad” estrogen thereby subsequently leading to a decrease in breast cancer in Finnish women studied.

The rationale for it being discussed here is one of pure origin, however, similar application can be applied to males in the post-cycle time frame. That is, a decrease in the “bad” cholesterol remains of utmost importance in both scenarios, while the potential consequence of its existence does not share any similarity.

While 1% of breast cancer is found in males, it is NOT breast cancer prevention that is found to be the largest benefit here. The shunting described above that suggests the favoring of 2-hydroxylation over 16-alpha-hydroxylation may reduce risk of clinically evident prostate cancer (12). This shunting has another effect: it aids the liver’s Phase I and Phase II enzymes allowing a bit more wear and tear from the cycle (especially encouraging news for the C17-alkylated oral users). Oh yeah, gentlemen there is this shunting effect that would also be beneficial in fat deposition or feminizing effects seen in the post cycle time frame.

We’ll explore some UNIQUE dosing parameters as well as absorption protocols for the most benefits of this extract.

Per Dinoiii. He has a boatload of info on I3C, I will see what I can dig up for you.
 
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that stuff. thanks dude

Alot of people tout Trans-Revs with this SERM like quality, it may but I haven't seen but 1 study and it was on rats in this regard. I admit I was all over it when it came out thinking it was the next big thing in PCT. It may, but I have seen 1 person's bloodwork that included Trans-Revs....also had I3C:thumbsup:

Trans-Revs could and should be beneficial IMHO in PCT due to its very potent anti-oxidant properties. Its positive effects on cholestrol and so forth. I am just not sure how it acts on the E1 and E2 recpectors. I am not sure if this last paragraph made any sense...it did in my mind:lol:
 
Every OTC PCT i've ran with blood work yielded complete recovery, granted most were "mild" cycles. It is usually a combination of an AI (usually ATD), a natural test booster, ZMA and I3C. Is it faster than Clomid? Nope, but it's worked well for me.
 
Every OTC PCT i've ran with blood work yielded complete recovery, granted most were "mild" cycles. It is usually a combination of an AI (usually ATD), a natural test booster, ZMA and I3C. Is it faster than Clomid? Nope, but it's worked well for me.
Do you have "virgin" or pre cycle blood work to determine your baseline. "Virgin", meaning prior to having EVER used androgens or the very least a year or more androgen free pre cycle blood work.

"Yielded complete recovery" is an ambiguous statement without a baseline.
 
Do you have "virgin" or pre cycle blood work to determine your baseline. "Virgin", meaning prior to having EVER used androgens or the very least a year or more androgen free pre cycle blood work.

"Yielded complete recovery" is an ambiguous statement without a baseline.

Yea, nor am I trying to stir up the meaningless bloodwork argument again. ;) Just saying i've found I3C to be pretty good stuff, it is definitely one of those things not many know about that has great potential. The manner in which its dosed is crucial though.

I do have "virgin" values, however they are probably 8-12 months before I ever took a PH. This was a long time ago, so naturally I can assume as I age that "baseline" will go lower and lower although my numbers have stayed fairly static. I did do bloodwork after that first cycle too, I barely did a PCT and it showed in the values. Did bloodwork probably 3 months after that one and was back to my norm. I try to make sure before I run another cycle my values are as close to that old baseline as possible. I plan on taking some real time off PH/AAS and going natural for a year or so... if I get back into it i'll do pre-bw will assume that as a new baseline.
 
i believe i got a full panel, with t3 t4 test liver enszymes cholest ect, all before the cycle.

i need to make an appt because im ON now, and by next week itll be week itll be week 5 of a 7 week oral, (superdrol being the last compound so i can see how shut down i really am

hopefully the blood work will get back real quick,

BTW T1, being your knowledge in the medical feild, how high can liver enzymes raise on a daily basis the day AFTER a workout.?
Crazzy PLEASE man, dont make your name a definition of your character sir. I am literally pleading with you here for your own health. If you are truely on SD after ANOTHER oral then you will most certainly be in a hard spot through PCT if you dont get and use serious chemical assistance.... even then Id do a PCT for your PCT (comprise of low dose AI to avoid rebound) SD is a VERY serious VERY strong compound. Its no where near the compounds I would consider using an OTC protocol for and Id really hate to see you get some nasty sides.

What are you stacking this on top of? how long have you been running it and at what dose? and what EXACTLY do you have planned for PCT? what have your gains been like and DO YOU WANT TO KEEP THEM????

Man dont go down that road, its not a fun one......
 
The suggestion that blood work is meaningless is in the context of those who are ignorant or incompetent providing blood work without many contributing variables undisclosed.

Here is an example:

~ no pre cycle blood work to establish a baseline or pre cycle blood work with variable disclosed.
~ posting recovered values while still having a SERM, AI or test booster in their system or other variable undisclosed

Cycle Time - PCT Time - Plus time equal or greater than PCT is a completed PCT. Then and only then is it time to even consider that homeostasis is achieved.

When a guy takes blood work two days after his PCT protocol is done all of his exogenous therapy compounds are still active skewing baseline and providing the illusion of restored HPTA.

Not to mention, do they provide consecutive consistent LH/FSH reports which can be indicative of homeostasis.

Getting a blood work report to state that your tests levels are in the "in range" levels is not homeostasis.

This is a very old discussion. I'm out.
 
Crazzy PLEASE man, dont make your name a definition of your character sir. I am literally pleading with you here for your own health. If you are truely on SD after ANOTHER oral then you will most certainly be in a hard spot through PCT if you dont get and use serious chemical assistance.... even then Id do a PCT for your PCT (comprise of low dose AI to avoid rebound) SD is a VERY serious VERY strong compound. Its no where near the compounds I would consider using an OTC protocol for and Id really hate to see you get some nasty sides.

What are you stacking this on top of? how long have you been running it and at what dose? and what EXACTLY do you have planned for PCT? what have your gains been like and DO YOU WANT TO KEEP THEM????

Man dont go down that road, its not a fun one......

Great points. M-Drol is so often understimated...
 
The suggestion that blood work is meaningless is in the context of those who are ignorant or incompetent providing blood work without many contributing variables undisclosed.

Here is an example:

~ no pre cycle blood work to establish a baseline or pre cycle blood work with variable disclosed.
~ posting recovered values while still having a SERM, AI or test booster in their system or other variable undisclosed

Cycle Time - PCT Time - Plus time equal or greater than PCT is a completed PCT. Then and only then is it time to even consider that homeostasis is achieved.

When a guy takes blood work two days after his PCT protocol is done all of his exogenous therapy compounds are still active skewing baseline and providing the illusion of restored HPTA.

Not to mention, do they provide consecutive consistent LH/FSH reports which can be indicative of homeostasis.

Getting a blood work report to state that your tests levels are in the "in range" levels is not homeostasis.

This is a very old discussion. I'm out.

Agreed. Many time I see someone do bloodwork 1-2 months after they finished PCT for a cycle and consider that their baseline, not knowing if they really ever recovered from their last cycle.
 
Yah that post was a bit of a blanket statement but it holds truths. I'm not looking to make enemies but I'm at the end of my teather with the amount of gray area that is involved concerned one's health of all things from these products you sell.

You have to understand here, I myself am most likely going to run a cycle in november of ether Epi or Havoc and dermacrine. I have been looking on these forums for months about this stuff and will until November and then even beyond that but I still find myself reading every page of this thread still unsure whether OTC serm can be used for these compounds and all I run into is reps from companies arguing and others calling newbs retards because they don' do research. Well I still don't have the answer I'm looking for and I've been reading on this board daily since May. Either I am a total retard or the information is not readily available to the consumer concerning the TRUE effectiveness of OTC products being pushed along with the designers.

And I know this is how others feel because I am reading their posts from their prospective and I even got repped for my last rant so you know I'm on something. You can take this information as constructive feedback or ignore it and flame me for these posts.


Edit: I have posted my planned cycle in the PCT section days ago asking for a review of it as to not have health complications and I have had only a single response from a rep whose products I haven't even listed.

Boyders Im sorry I missed your thread, I have been really busy on all the boards I frequent (about 4 forums open in tabs at anygiven time on my screen, serious) and have been doing considerablee research myself in the peptide field so havnt been that vigilant at checking all the other sections for anyone that mentions the word epi... usually I catch in in the new posts sections but then it still needs to be in the title for me to really catch it.

But in all honesty sir the answers ARE out there. The answers have been out there since I started on these boards and was researching for my M1T cycle..... AFTER I already started.

I feel for you man, I was a starter once too and had got into something VERY serious on word of a friend (M1T) and didnt really know what it was, needless to say after one week and 10lbs later I wanted to know what the hell I was taking how it worked and ect andfound I was into a whole nother realm of supplements above that of my GNC N02 and creatine experience, and had to play catch up... still I didnt find concrete answers till 6 months 2 cycles of m1T and one cycle of superdrol and a case of gyno later. I was soooooo peeved but had NO ONE to blame but myself for not searching and holding off till I had concrete answers before commencing.

This is why I advocate SERM use for ANY AND EVERY CYCLE. I have stated previously that, YES, you can get away with an OTC pct with weaker compounds (the new DHEA derivatives dosed at rec dose) and could also do NOTHING and in 4 weeks be in "normal ranges" but thats not my bodies normal range and if I were to take these "weaker" compounds, guess what?
Id take a SERM! now I would dose lower and prob only a week to just jumpstart things and save unessecary stress on my liver but Id also recover super fast and then follow up with OTC measures to maintain if not improve upon those gains. ( i have run epi at rec doses and then added 5lbs to an already 13.5lb gain using a serm based pct, I have also ran a 5 week Dbol and Epi@60mg dose gained 10lbs kept all 10 pct and have blood work a week and a half post pct stating I had higher range test levels(685ng/dl, normal range 280-800ng/dl)... this is the kind of results you get with SERM based pct's, doubt anyone can say the same for OTC protocols)

So let me say without even lookin at your thread. Get a SERM. I dont care if you run it a week, I dont care if you run it at all! Just have it as it can stop and prevent things that no OTC can be proved to accomplish right now. now if youd like to have me help you tailor a PCT program specific to your needs/history/cycle dose and length then feel free to PM me and I will be more then willing to help out.

I will say again, If guys cant accept the fact that these compounds may need you to take a serious chem post cycle
then they need to just not take em period. Everyone is hoping for an answer of "SURE take the OTC PCT route" and when they dont they get mad ignore all the guys and years of time tested protocols and continue to push the fact they want an answer they want to hear.... its not going to happen.

as for your bolded statement.... your will see this is more common with the people who provide OTC PCT supps, or from companies that literally can do so with a good reason (3-AD, MMV2, Superdrol NG) I dont think youll find in any of our write ups Epistane being pushed with an OTC PCT program unless its a pulsing cycle.
 
Crazzy PLEASE man, dont make your name a definition of your character sir. I am literally pleading with you here for your own health. If you are truely on SD after ANOTHER oral then you will most certainly be in a hard spot through PCT if you dont get and use serious chemical assistance.... even then Id do a PCT for your PCT (comprise of low dose AI to avoid rebound) SD is a VERY serious VERY strong compound. Its no where near the compounds I would consider using an OTC protocol for and Id really hate to see you get some nasty sides.

What are you stacking this on top of? how long have you been running it and at what dose? and what EXACTLY do you have planned for PCT? what have your gains been like and DO YOU WANT TO KEEP THEM????

Man dont go down that road, its not a fun one......

im doin clomid and ADEX for PCT

clomid 100/50/50
ADEX____/.5/.5/.5

ive been doing

PPLEX 38.4/57.6/57.6/38.4/19.2
MDROL______________10/20mg/20/20

i may do 30 for a few days, depending on how much i have.

im at the point where i started my bridge, up ~9 pounds no fat gain (that i can notice) ....
 
OH I have no argument that there are OTC products that are just outstanding but I wouldnt rely on any of them or even a combination of them as the base of my PCT but definately on top of a SERM based PCT. Im set in this thinking until I can be shown multiple studies proving the efficiency of a herbal based SERM that doesnt activate the receptor as well (resveratrol can have a multitude of effects at different ER's depending on location, protagonist, nuetral and antagonist.... the same is true for basically any phyto estrogen studied thus far.)

If you look at my log/link in my sig below page 14 half way down you can see my whole dosing for one epistane cycle... Im all about being comprehensive and covering it from multiple angles and covering different PCT factors.... but that doesnt mean I can ommit the main SERM used...
 
Molecular effects of genistein on estrogen receptor mediated pathways
Thomas T.Y. Wang, Neeraja Sathyamoorthy and James M. Phang
Laboratory of Nutritional and Molecular Regulation, NCI-Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center NIH, Frederick, MD 21702-1201, USA
Genistein, a component of soy products, may play a role in the prevention of breast and prostate cancer. However, little is known about the molecular mechanisms involved. In the present study, we examined the effects of genistein on the estrogen receptor positive human breast cancer cell line MCF-7. We observed that genistein stimulated estrogen-responsive pS2 mRNA expression at concentrations as low as 10–8 M and these effects can be inhibited by tamoxifen. We also showed that genistein competed with (3H)estradiol binding to the estrogen receptor with 50% inhibition at 5 x 10–7 M. Thus, the estrogenic effect of genistein would appear to be a result of an interaction with the estrogen receptor. The effect of genistein on growth of MCF-7 cells was also examined. Genistein produceda concentration-dependent effect on the growth of MCF-7 cells. At lower concentrations (10–8-10–6 M) genistein stimulated growth, but at higher concentrations (>10–5M) genistein inhibited growth. The effects of genistein on growth at lower concentrations appeared to be via the estrogen receptor pathway, while the effects at higher concentrations were independent of the estrogen receptor. We also found that genistein, thoughestrogenic, can interfere with the effects of estradiol. In addition, prolonged exposure to genistein resulted in a decrease in estrogen receptor mRNA level as well as a decreased response to stimulation by estradiol.

this is another excerpt

. However, due to the presence of the phenolic rings, and particularly the 4'-hydroxyl, they have the ability to bind to estrogen receptors, as do many substances, including antiestrogens like tamoxifen used successfully to treat breast cancer. Isoflavones show a higher relative affinity for binding to the ERß receptor, about six- to eightfold [63], and appear to model on selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) in their conformational binding to the receptor [64]. Elegant X-ray crystallographic studies have probed and compared the conformational binding of estrogens [65], the recently approved SERM raloxifene (marketed in the USA by the name Evista), and the isoflavone genistein [66]. These studies show important and distinct differences in positioning of the compound within the dimerized ER-complex. Most striking is the position of several of the protein helices of the ER that are crucial in determining agonist or antagonist actions. The folding of helix-12 in particular governs the ability of the receptor complex to attract specific co-activator or co-repressor proteins [67,68] and this ultimately dictates the extent of agonist or antagonist actions [65]. In this regard, it has been shown that genistein sits in the ER-complex in a manner that is almost identical to that of raloxifene, and not like estradiol [66]. So, rather than classifying soy isoflavones as ‘estrogens,’ they should more correctly be judged to act hormonally as natural SERMs, as was recently suggested [69]. As such, this suggests that soy isoflavones are likely to have the beneficial effects of estrogen without the negatives, especially in tissues such as the endometrium and breast [64,70].
 
Molecular effects of genistein on estrogen receptor mediated pathways
Thomas T.Y. Wang, Neeraja Sathyamoorthy and James M. Phang
Laboratory of Nutritional and Molecular Regulation, NCI-Frederick Cancer Research and Development Center NIH, Frederick, MD 21702-1201, USA
Genistein, a component of soy products, may play a role in the prevention of breast and prostate cancer. However, little is known about the molecular mechanisms involved. In the present study, we examined the effects of genistein on the estrogen receptor positive human breast cancer cell line MCF-7. We observed that genistein stimulated estrogen-responsive pS2 mRNA expression at concentrations as low as 10–8 M and these effects can be inhibited by tamoxifen. We also showed that genistein competed with (3H)estradiol binding to the estrogen receptor with 50% inhibition at 5 x 10–7 M. Thus, the estrogenic effect of genistein would appear to be a result of an interaction with the estrogen receptor. The effect of genistein on growth of MCF-7 cells was also examined. Genistein produceda concentration-dependent effect on the growth of MCF-7 cells. At lower concentrations (10–8-10–6 M) genistein stimulated growth, but at higher concentrations (>10–5M) genistein inhibited growth. The effects of genistein on growth at lower concentrations appeared to be via the estrogen receptor pathway, while the effects at higher concentrations were independent of the estrogen receptor. We also found that genistein, thoughestrogenic, can interfere with the effects of estradiol. In addition, prolonged exposure to genistein resulted in a decrease in estrogen receptor mRNA level as well as a decreased response to stimulation by estradiol.

this is another excerpt

. However, due to the presence of the phenolic rings, and particularly the 4'-hydroxyl, they have the ability to bind to estrogen receptors, as do many substances, including antiestrogens like tamoxifen used successfully to treat breast cancer. Isoflavones show a higher relative affinity for binding to the ERß receptor, about six- to eightfold [63], and appear to model on selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) in their conformational binding to the receptor [64]. Elegant X-ray crystallographic studies have probed and compared the conformational binding of estrogens [65], the recently approved SERM raloxifene (marketed in the USA by the name Evista), and the isoflavone genistein [66]. These studies show important and distinct differences in positioning of the compound within the dimerized ER-complex. Most striking is the position of several of the protein helices of the ER that are crucial in determining agonist or antagonist actions. The folding of helix-12 in particular governs the ability of the receptor complex to attract specific co-activator or co-repressor proteins [67,68] and this ultimately dictates the extent of agonist or antagonist actions [65]. In this regard, it has been shown that genistein sits in the ER-complex in a manner that is almost identical to that of raloxifene, and not like estradiol [66]. So, rather than classifying soy isoflavones as ‘estrogens,’ they should more correctly be judged to act hormonally as natural SERMs, as was recently suggested [69]. As such, this suggests that soy isoflavones are likely to have the beneficial effects of estrogen without the negatives, especially in tissues such as the endometrium and breast [64,70].


this is great and all but there are a multitude of other factors that have to be explored as well. Whats the actaul bioavailabilty of these compounds when taken orally? were they done so through this study or IM? or in vitro? or in rats?

Also how long will this binding hold? whats the half life of it in the blood stream if its even able to get there?

Also what effects other then JUST SERModulation does it have? Does it do anything for the HTPA? Does it do anything for the lipids? Does it have any toxic side effects? at what doses where these tests run?

This is still a VERY early based study in its efffects at the ER and that only, not extensive or real world tested whatsoever through clinical trials.

Again this is nothing new and something to keep an eye on, but by no means is it a definitive replacement and wont be for some time.
 
this is great and all but there are a multitude of other factors that have to be explored as well. Whats the actaul bioavailabilty of these compounds when taken orally? were they done so through this study or IM? or in vitro? or in rats?

Also how long will this binding hold? whats the half life of it in the blood stream if its even able to get there?

Also what effects other then JUST SERModulation does it have? Does it do anything for the HTPA? Does it do anything for the lipids? Does it have any toxic side effects? at what doses where these tests run?

This is still a VERY early based study in its efffects at the ER and that only, not extensive or real world tested whatsoever through clinical trials.

Again this is nothing new and something to keep an eye on, but by no means is it a definitive replacement and wont be for some time.


there are lots of variables, and if i can get into my school data base, its something i would love to research further, these abstracts rarly tell you the dose used for inhibition and proliferation.
 
i believe i got a full panel, with t3 t4 test liver enszymes cholest ect, all before the cycle.

i need to make an appt because im ON now, and by next week itll be week itll be week 5 of a 7 week oral, (superdrol being the last compound so i can see how shut down i really am

hopefully the blood work will get back real quick,

BTW T1, being your knowledge in the medical feild, how high can liver enzymes raise on a daily basis the day AFTER a workout.?

I'm trying to find that thread i made and i'll post it in here for you to check out. The thread has a good article that gets into your questions a bit.

You can show some mild elevations in AST/ALT post heavy training. You should however see a higher elevation in the AST due to ALT being primarily hepatic (liver) specific.

Edit: Here it is! :)

Invalid Link Removed

If you have any specific questions after reading that i'd be glad to help with what i can. Make sure you read page 2 also as i added in some more info to better understand what you're looking at with these labs.
 
Maybe I missed this in all the posting going on, but I don't think I did....

Has there been any official research(significant or otherwise) done recently on any OTC PCT supplements to prove any effectiveness at all.....and if not; than why not? I know that this is a very general question, but I'm not looking for a book length answer....just a Yes or No would work. If the answer is yes... than which ones?

Thanks,
Partyman:thumbsup:




:bb3:
 
Thats good. It should include things like Bun, Glucose, Creatinine(sp), etc.

Yes exactly. A good baseline panel to have done includes a CMP (Comprehensive Metabolic Panel). This includes Sodium, Potassium, Chloride, CO2, Anion Gap, Glucose, BUN, Creatinine, AST, ALT, Bilirubin (Direct and Indirect), and ALK phos.

Having a CBC (Complete Blood Cell count) is also very important in establishing baseline health. This includes a Wbc (as well as the differential), RBC (with differentials), Hemoglobin, Hematocrit, and Platelets.


T3, T4, TSH, and fasting lipids are also lab values that it's a good idea to have baseline knowledge of. :)
 
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