Follidrone 2.0 worth the cash?

Wedgylx said:
The passion is exciting haha. Log will go up once I know when it will ship out to me. No shipping email still, I assume they are pretty backed up from the sale they are doing.....was hoping I'd get lucky and have it by Monday. Its only been a couple of days, I'm just excited lol.
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Bro you should have seen some of the early Follidrone battles. Some went on for weeks and got ugly enough to get closed and or deleted.
 
mbonheur said:
Well, I took two bottles of FD2 and was not that impressed (some slight endurance gains, a little stronger and leaner), so there is that :) I also tried Epi Plex and the first version of FD.

And I find it funny that the rave reviews about FD2 are in particular in this forum. Much harder to find "like on steroids" claims on the interwebs otherwise.

Anyways, I am used to it. I tried M-test, Alphamax XT, etc. and it was not even close to what many people describe here. No biggie, but you have to take a lot of reviews with a pinch of salt.

And some ingredients work better for some individuals than others. I, for instance, am a believer in ecdysterone (RCE)/Turkesterone as a quality adaptogen, but many people don't share this impression. At the end of the day, you have to make up your mind for yourself.
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The primary reason for this is we only market on this forum and alot of guys from this forum use Follidrone 2.0. For this reason you see reviews here and not on other forums. You dont see bad reviews on any other forum do you? Maybe people saying its garbage but again like the above poster they havnt used it and have no reason to say anything at all. If you see hundreds of positive reviews, which Follidrone has, its likely there is something to it.
We dont pay all these people to say how well it worked for them. Not a 1.
 
Wildcat528 said:
100% this and I can see and value everyone's perspective (trait of being a scientist).When I started looking for a natural test booster the reviews here on MTEST and AlphamaxXT were abundant and profoundly positive. It almost seemed too good to be true but this forum was so adamant about them (look up any natural test thread here and 99% of these will be recommended). I purchased MTEST and had a hormonal label done about 5 weeks later. Not only did I not notice anything at all from the product, but my test levels were lower than previously (bottom but in normal range). Alphamax XT also resulted in absolutely nothing from test boosting claims. I love this forum dearly but I've been severely let down many many times after being persuaded by the folks here (lots of times by reps or sponsored logs). I think there are really only 2 products that have lived up to the claim for me. I don't even want to think about how much money I've wasted over the years on ineffective supplements. Regarding the necessity for scientific studies, I can see where Masterzen is coming from. A lot of our staple products that do work are in fact backed with significant scientific evidence. No one can dispute really the benefits of creatine, leucine, beta alanine, ashwagandha, etc. I admit that anecdotal evidence. I do fully believe though that in some cases, purely anecdotal evidence is in fact accurate and the highly valuable. For instance, I haven't been able to find many eria jarensis studies but I can definitely say that it does boost mood and motivation. I think it'd be nice if people here had an open mind and didn't have to be on one end of the extreme or the other. A supplement isn't bunk just because there aren't many or any studies on it. And a supplement isn't effective and life changing just because some members say it is. Regardless, this forum has been so phenomenal for me personally and I sincerely appreciate everyone's opinion.
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Its hard to wade though the BS sometimes. Thats for certain. Many of the companies here have so many reps you think your reading tons of positive reviews but its 90 reps.
We only have 1 rep. So 100% of the reviews and reports are from guys who have no reason to make up stories or support us otherwise.
I realize this is still anecdotal but at least we are not paying them to say positive things only for you to shell out cash and be disappointed.
Our primary goal is to only make products that work and work well.
If a product failed I would drop it from our lineup. Not pay people to say it was awesome. This is a huge part of why people dont trust the supplement industry.

but then again, we actually test our products BEFORE we sell them to people so...we would cut it before it ever got to you ;)
 
brundel said:
There are dozens of studies.
Read through the Follidrone 2.0 FAQ. I posted quite a few with references. And these were only a handful of the many.
Ecklonia cava has had tens -20s of millions of dollars spent in research and its benefits have been proven more than most supplements you or anyone takes.

Here is a summary-



Epicatechin
Promotes AMPK
Increased Follistatin
Reduced myostatin
Reduded Activin A
Antioxidant

These days everyone already knows about Epicatechin so I wont spend alot of time here. Amazing stuff. There is a solid dose of Epicatechin in here along with a strong absorption enhancement package. We use several ingredients that prevent metabolism and allow epicatechin to be fully absorbed which in turn increases its effects many times over. All the benefits you have come to love from epicatechin, Muscle mass, strength, endurance, pump but MUCH stronger.


Ecklonia Cava: EC
Muscle mass
Fat loss
Promotes AMPK
Increased Follistatin
Reduced myostatin
Reduded Activin A
ACE inhibitor
Antioxidant
Vasodilator
Cardio protective
Increased brain function
Reduced cholesterol
GLUT4 Expression


This is one of the most well studied seaweeds on earth. Millions of dollars has been spent looking at this stuff for all kinds of purposes. Its exceptional with regards to health benefits and safety. Its also exceptional with regards to its benefits to us as muscle gain and fat loss enthusiasts. Like Epicatechin EC is a strong follistatin booster and as such myostatin inhibitor. In addition to its ability to reduce myostatin it is also a very solid ACE inhibitor. Ace inhibitors are interesting to say the very least. Ace inhibitors increase insulin sensitivity and glucose uptake into muscles. Lower ACE equates to lower overall bodyfat levels, increased fat metabolism in the liver and the ability to process sugars much faster. In addition increased cell surface GLUT4 increases nutrient shuttling into muscle tissue. It has been suggested that ACE inhibitor-induced positive effects may also be mediated by direct action on the skeletal muscle. In particular, two recently published observational studies documented that among hypertensive subjects free of CHF, treatment with ACE inhibitors was associated with better performance and muscular outcomes and genetic studies also support the hypothesis that the ACE system may be involved in physical performance and skeletal muscle function. Effects on the skeletal muscle are probably mediated by mechanical, metabolic, anti-inflammatory, nutritional, neurological and angiogenetic actions. Individuals with the II genotype of the ACE gene have greater endurance and greater skeletal muscle trainability in some studies. Hypertensive patients taking ACE inhibitors have greater cross-sectional muscle mass and a slower decline in walking speed than those taking other antihypertensives in epidemiological studies. ACE inhibitors are also known to improve endothelial function, muscle glucose uptake, increase potassium levels and modulate other hormonal systems including IGF-1, all of which could contribute to improved skeletal muscle function. Finally, ACE inhibitors could of course be mediating a direct effect on skeletal muscle structure and function; they are known to have trophic effects on myocardial tissue. Finally ACE inhibitors help us with fat loss independent of food intake. This appears to be due to a high energy expenditure related to increased metabolism of fatty acids in the liver, with the additional effect of increased glucose tolerance.

EC is a strong vasodilator and helps restore and increase endothelial function. EC can regenerate the vascular endothelium, the cells critical to the inner lining of the blood vessels. They generate the chemical nitric oxide (NO), which keeps the arterial walls relaxed and dilated. After a six-week study of EC, flow mediated dilation and NO mediated dilation increased by 60% and 50%. In another study, coronary artery disease patients were given EC for six weeks. Blood flow controlled by NO increased 50-60%. These results confirm that EC can rejuvenate damaged endothelial cells to produce NO. This effect was further confirmed in a study on erectile dysfunction (see below).

Scientists studied 31 men with erectile dysfunction (ED) for over six months. They compared eight weeks of EC use to Viagra. They looked at orgasmic function (OF), intercourse satisfaction (IS), overall satisfaction (OS), and erectile function (EF). Over those eight weeks, ECE scored 87%, 74%, 62%, and 66%. Viagra scored 27%, 44%, 39%, and 66%. No side effects were reported with EC:


DGAT Inhibition
Diacylglycerol acetyl transferase (DGAT) is the enzyme involved in the final step of triglyceride synthesis. Triglycerides are circulating fat bodies that ultimately wind up in the fat cells, and are almost always elevated in diabetes. They also have emerged as a major risk factor in vascular disease.
It was found that EC compounds inhibited DGAT more than 50%. In genetically caused obese laboratory rats, EC reduced body fat and increased physical activity. In another study, EC caused leanness and fat-resistance in animals given a high fat diet.

ECE Beverage: 2-Week Clinical Trial
In a human study, 141 young adults were given a beverage containing ECE at 200 mg daily. In two weeks their average weight dropped nearly 2.5 pounds, muscle mass increased by nearly 2.5 pounds, and body fat dropped by 4 pounds, or 7.48%. EC stimulates the body to burn fat by increasing muscle mass.

Frankly I dont know of too many things that have the potential of Ecklonia cava. Great for building muscle and losing fat, Vasodilation and a host of health benefits round this ingredient out and make it in my opinion the star of the show and I believe an even stronger ingredient than epicatechin.




Flos carth
Increased Follistatin
Reduced myostatin
Reduded Activin A
antiinflammitory
antioxidant
Increased NO production

Flos Carthami extract was initially a target for me because of its ability to increase Follistatin (see Fig 1.). Increased Follistatin, decreased Myostatin and activin A lead to increased muscle building potential. Flos Carthami has a strong antioxidant effect and is highly anti inflammatory. more than one tester mentioned a reduction in overall muscular pain perception acutely post training and during the DOMS stage of recovery. Several studies indicate that FC improves endothelial function and NO production similar to EC and (-)-E extract.


ABSORPTION PACKAGE=

Quercetin/niacin co crystal
Vasodilator, Increased VO2 Max,
Absorption

Quercetin niacin co_crystals are a whole new ingredient. Everyone knows about quercetin and niacin but quercetin has very poor oral bioavailability and niacin causes severe flushing at decent doses. Bonding the molecules together increases the absorption of Quercetin many times over and prevents the Niacin flush. Quercetin has been mentioned for everything from endurance and an increase in VO2 Max to fat loss to its strong antioxidant effect, however, for our purpose we added it specifically for its ability to increase the absorption of our other ingredients. Specifically, epicatechin. Its as just an added bonus we get all the benefits of both quercetin and niacin which includes vasodilation and improved cholesterol levels making this a star ingredient we plan on adding in high amounts in our coming PRE WORKOUT product

Absorption=
Both of these tested exceptionally well and have strong scientific evidence supporting their use to increase the absporption of epicatechin.
Octyl gallate
Citrus bioflavaniods

UPDATE- Naringenin is one of the major bioflavanoids in FD2
check out how it can benefit us for more than just absorption!
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REFS:
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http://www.fiercebiotechresearch.com...oss/2008-04-29
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Can you provide a link to the actual 2-week EC beverage study (not just to another write-up that mentions it; the actual published study)? I see it referenced everywhere (in write-ups, not published studies), but never the actual study. That's not to say EC isn't a good ingredient with other promising studies showing body composition benefits, I just would very much like to see this "study."
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Can you provide a link to the actual 2-week EC beverage study (not just to another write-up that mentions it; the actual published study)? I see it referenced everywhere (in write-ups, not published studies), but never the actual study. That's not to say EC isn't a good ingredient with other promising studies showing body composition benefits, I just would very much like to see this "study."
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Ill dig for it. Some of the commonly cited studies are not available anywhere online. This doesnt mean they dont exist. Can you imagine how much research ISNT posted on the internet? Id wager 50-70%. Maybe more. I do know there was alot of money spent researching Ecklonia cava and the vast majority of the data isnt available online or anywhere I have searched. And most is in Korean.

EDIT: Maybe we are searching the wrong databases. Korea.....and Korean. Is what we need to search for and I dont know korean or have a korean typing keyboard lol. Ill still do my best. I had a copy of the viagra study at one point as well.
 
Wedgylx said:
Fair statement. I've tried plenty myself that were raved about on forums and turned out to be.....less than I expected.

My expectations are not that I guess PH/AAS like results, but if I notice a little boost in strength/endurance/fat loss I'll be happy. I've got no skin in the game, so my review/log will be a fair one.
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I put it on par for a 10mg Osta run....and have run 20 plus bottles of FD2.
 
brundel said:
Ill dig for it. Some of the commonly cited studies are not available anywhere online. This doesnt mean they dont exist. Can you imagine how much research ISNT posted on the internet? Id wager 50-70%. Maybe more. I do know there was alot of money spent researching Ecklonia cava and the vast majority of the data isnt available online or anywhere I have searched. And most is in Korean.
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Thanks man. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are are some promising studies on EC (I linked some up in an old discussion thread on it):
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I'm not trying to discredit EC by any means, I just know that sometimes it only takes one website/place to say something that may not be 100% true for the rest of the internet to parrot it endlessly until it's accepted as fact, with people using those other "references" to validate/support their claims on the subject. If we can't at least get some basic info on the study (when it was conducted, who/where it was conducted by, etc), then that, unfortunately, has to call it's legitimacy/validity into question, no? At the end of the day, it's not a "make-or-break" issue for EC, as one of the studies in the old thread did show benefits in regards to body composition, it's just that the results of this study are more impressive, but there's almost no information available on it, which is a "red flag" of sorts IMO (for the one study, not the ingredient as a whole of course).
 
Someone want to help me out.
Gonna start digging through EC research for the anabolic studies. Ive read most of them so I know they exist.
68 references here.=
Ill keep digging
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muscleupcrohn said:
Thanks man. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are are some promising studies on EC (I linked some up in an old discussion thread on it):
Invalid Link Removed
I'm not trying to discredit EC by any means, I just know that sometimes it only takes one website/place to say something that may not be 100% true for the rest of the internet to parrot it endlessly until it's accepted as fact, with people using those other "references" to validate/support their claims on the subject. If we can't at least get some basic info on the study (when it was conducted, who/where it was conducted by, etc), then that, unfortunately, has to call it's legitimacy/validity into question, no? At the end of the day, it's not a "make-or-break" issue for EC, as one of the studies in the old thread did show benefits in regards to body composition, it's just that the results of this study are more impressive, but there's almost no information available on it, which is a "red flag" of sorts IMO (for the one study, not the ingredient as a whole of course).
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Im gonna contact a friend of mine who speak Korean and has family in Korea and see if I can get some assistance digging.
And Im gonna try to dig up as much english stuff as possIble.
There are more EC studies than you might imagine. Multiple hundreds I would estimate.
 
brundel said:
Someone want to help me out.
Gonna start digging through EC research for the anabolic studies. Ive read most of them so I know they exist.
68 references here.=
Ill keep digging
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I've read through a ton of EC studies the last time I asked about that one study. I couldn't find anything for it besides it being mentioned in various write-ups and pages selling various EC products. I've found at least one study showing increased endurance, and another showing weight loss, just nothing substantial for that one study in particular.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I've read through a ton of EC studies the last time I asked about that one study. I couldn't find anything for it besides it being mentioned in various write-ups and pages selling various EC products. I've found at least one study showing increased endurance, and another showing weight loss, just nothing substantial for that one study in particular.
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Im gonna give it my best to track it down. Again its probably in Korean and not available.
I know the Viagra one, at least the abstract is available in english cause Ive read it. So Ill see what I can find.
Some really interesting research into this stuff.
 
Gonna start posting all the refs I can find in english.
Some interesting fat loss and erection ones here


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brundel said:
Im gonna contact a friend of mine who speak Korean and has family in Korea and see if I can get some assistance digging.
And Im gonna try to dig up as much english stuff as possIble.
There are more EC studies than you might imagine. Multiple hundreds I would estimate.
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I know there's a lot of research on EC for a variety of purposes. I'm not so much interested in seeing all of these other studies as in seeing this one, as it is referenced all the time but no one has been able to actually find the study itself. I'm not questioning if EC can improve body composition, it's just it sort of bugs me to see a study talked about all the time, and with great results, but never actually be able to validate said study.
brundel said:
Im gonna give it my best to track it down. Again its probably in Korean and not available.
I know the Viagra one, at least the abstract is available in english cause Ive read it. So Ill see what I can find.
Some really interesting research into this stuff.
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Is the full text to the Viagra one available anywhere? I've seen people quote the abstract, but never actually a source of the study itself, even in Korean. I know I can't read Korean, but I'd still like to see that it's actually a published study from a legitimate source and not just something created on the internet.

Those two studies are really the ones I'd like to see. Again, I'm not saying EC doesn't work in regards to body composition and erectile function, just that these two studies seem to be both the most "promising" and the most difficult to actually find.
 
brundel said:
Read through the Follidrone 2.0 FAQ. I posted quite a few with references. And these were only a handful of the many.
Ecklonia cava has had tens -20s of millions of dollars spent in research and its benefits have been proven more than most supplements you or anyone takes.

Here is a summary-



Epicatechin
Promotes AMPK
Increased Follistatin
Reduced myostatin
Reduded Activin A
Antioxidant

These days everyone already knows about Epicatechin so I wont spend alot of time here. Amazing stuff. There is a solid dose of Epicatechin in here along with a strong absorption enhancement package. We use several ingredients that prevent metabolism and allow epicatechin to be fully absorbed which in turn increases its effects many times over. All the benefits you have come to love from epicatechin, Muscle mass, strength, endurance, pump but MUCH stronger.


Ecklonia Cava: EC
Muscle mass
Fat loss
Promotes AMPK
Increased Follistatin
Reduced myostatin
Reduded Activin A
ACE inhibitor
Antioxidant
Vasodilator
Cardio protective
Increased brain function
Reduced cholesterol
GLUT4 Expression


This is one of the most well studied seaweeds on earth. Millions of dollars has been spent looking at this stuff for all kinds of purposes. Its exceptional with regards to health benefits and safety. Its also exceptional with regards to its benefits to us as muscle gain and fat loss enthusiasts. Like Epicatechin EC is a strong follistatin booster and as such myostatin inhibitor. In addition to its ability to reduce myostatin it is also a very solid ACE inhibitor. Ace inhibitors are interesting to say the very least. Ace inhibitors increase insulin sensitivity and glucose uptake into muscles. Lower ACE equates to lower overall bodyfat levels, increased fat metabolism in the liver and the ability to process sugars much faster. In addition increased cell surface GLUT4 increases nutrient shuttling into muscle tissue. It has been suggested that ACE inhibitor-induced positive effects may also be mediated by direct action on the skeletal muscle. In particular, two recently published observational studies documented that among hypertensive subjects free of CHF, treatment with ACE inhibitors was associated with better performance and muscular outcomes and genetic studies also support the hypothesis that the ACE system may be involved in physical performance and skeletal muscle function. Effects on the skeletal muscle are probably mediated by mechanical, metabolic, anti-inflammatory, nutritional, neurological and angiogenetic actions. Individuals with the II genotype of the ACE gene have greater endurance and greater skeletal muscle trainability in some studies. Hypertensive patients taking ACE inhibitors have greater cross-sectional muscle mass and a slower decline in walking speed than those taking other antihypertensives in epidemiological studies. ACE inhibitors are also known to improve endothelial function, muscle glucose uptake, increase potassium levels and modulate other hormonal systems including IGF-1, all of which could contribute to improved skeletal muscle function. Finally, ACE inhibitors could of course be mediating a direct effect on skeletal muscle structure and function; they are known to have trophic effects on myocardial tissue. Finally ACE inhibitors help us with fat loss independent of food intake. This appears to be due to a high energy expenditure related to increased metabolism of fatty acids in the liver, with the additional effect of increased glucose tolerance.

EC is a strong vasodilator and helps restore and increase endothelial function. EC can regenerate the vascular endothelium, the cells critical to the inner lining of the blood vessels. They generate the chemical nitric oxide (NO), which keeps the arterial walls relaxed and dilated. After a six-week study of EC, flow mediated dilation and NO mediated dilation increased by 60% and 50%. In another study, coronary artery disease patients were given EC for six weeks. Blood flow controlled by NO increased 50-60%. These results confirm that EC can rejuvenate damaged endothelial cells to produce NO. This effect was further confirmed in a study on erectile dysfunction (see below).

Scientists studied 31 men with erectile dysfunction (ED) for over six months. They compared eight weeks of EC use to Viagra. They looked at orgasmic function (OF), intercourse satisfaction (IS), overall satisfaction (OS), and erectile function (EF). Over those eight weeks, ECE scored 87%, 74%, 62%, and 66%. Viagra scored 27%, 44%, 39%, and 66%. No side effects were reported with EC:


DGAT Inhibition
Diacylglycerol acetyl transferase (DGAT) is the enzyme involved in the final step of triglyceride synthesis. Triglycerides are circulating fat bodies that ultimately wind up in the fat cells, and are almost always elevated in diabetes. They also have emerged as a major risk factor in vascular disease.
It was found that EC compounds inhibited DGAT more than 50%. In genetically caused obese laboratory rats, EC reduced body fat and increased physical activity. In another study, EC caused leanness and fat-resistance in animals given a high fat diet.

ECE Beverage: 2-Week Clinical Trial
In a human study, 141 young adults were given a beverage containing ECE at 200 mg daily. In two weeks their average weight dropped nearly 2.5 pounds, muscle mass increased by nearly 2.5 pounds, and body fat dropped by 4 pounds, or 7.48%. EC stimulates the body to burn fat by increasing muscle mass.

Frankly I dont know of too many things that have the potential of Ecklonia cava. Great for building muscle and losing fat, Vasodilation and a host of health benefits round this ingredient out and make it in my opinion the star of the show and I believe an even stronger ingredient than epicatechin.




Flos carth
Increased Follistatin
Reduced myostatin
Reduded Activin A
antiinflammitory
antioxidant
Increased NO production

Flos Carthami extract was initially a target for me because of its ability to increase Follistatin (see Fig 1.). Increased Follistatin, decreased Myostatin and activin A lead to increased muscle building potential. Flos Carthami has a strong antioxidant effect and is highly anti inflammatory. more than one tester mentioned a reduction in overall muscular pain perception acutely post training and during the DOMS stage of recovery. Several studies indicate that FC improves endothelial function and NO production similar to EC and (-)-E extract.


ABSORPTION PACKAGE=

Quercetin/niacin co crystal
Vasodilator, Increased VO2 Max,
Absorption

Quercetin niacin co_crystals are a whole new ingredient. Everyone knows about quercetin and niacin but quercetin has very poor oral bioavailability and niacin causes severe flushing at decent doses. Bonding the molecules together increases the absorption of Quercetin many times over and prevents the Niacin flush. Quercetin has been mentioned for everything from endurance and an increase in VO2 Max to fat loss to its strong antioxidant effect, however, for our purpose we added it specifically for its ability to increase the absorption of our other ingredients. Specifically, epicatechin. Its as just an added bonus we get all the benefits of both quercetin and niacin which includes vasodilation and improved cholesterol levels making this a star ingredient we plan on adding in high amounts in our coming PRE WORKOUT product

Absorption=
Both of these tested exceptionally well and have strong scientific evidence supporting their use to increase the absporption of epicatechin.
Octyl gallate
Citrus bioflavaniods

UPDATE- Naringenin is one of the major bioflavanoids in FD2
check out how it can benefit us for more than just absorption!
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REFS:
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http://www.fiercebiotechresearch.com...oss/2008-04-29
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Thank you very much for all of that information! Clearly I didn't do an appropriate amount of research so I apologize m. I do hope it works for me and I'll be using it in the fall. And if I don't respond then oh well, wouldn't be the first and won't be the last time it happens. You seem super passionate about the product so that alone entices me to give it a go!
 
Can you cite the references for the absorption package ingredients? I didn't see any referenced in the write up

That list of refs was a copy of paste from:
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You can use this reference instead for humans:
Shin, H.-C., Kim, S. H., Park, Y., Lee, B. H. and Hwang, H. J. (2012), Effects of 12-week Oral Supplementation of Ecklonia cava Polyphenols on Anthropometric and Blood Lipid Parameters in Overweight Korean Individuals: A Double-blind Randomized Clinical Trial. Phytother. Res., 26: 363–368. doi:10.1002/ptr.3559
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Can you cite the references for the absorption package ingredients? I didn't see any referenced in the write up

That list of refs was a copy of paste from:
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You can use this reference instead for humans:
Shin, H.-C., Kim, S. H., Park, Y., Lee, B. H. and Hwang, H. J. (2012), Effects of 12-week Oral Supplementation of Ecklonia cava Polyphenols on Anthropometric and Blood Lipid Parameters in Overweight Korean Individuals: A Double-blind Randomized Clinical Trial. Phytother. Res., 26: 363–368. doi:10.1002/ptr.3559
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I can, of course. One thing at a time ;)
I can tell you that it took alot of time and effort to get things right. Doses, standardization etc.
 
This is an interesting study
This isnt the beverage one commonly cited but as I was saying before there are ALOT of them.

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Higher VO2max
Increased glucose during exercise which is interesting considering all the evidence EC reduces blood glucose at rest.
Reduced lactate



Effect of supplementation with Ecklonia cava polyphenol on endurance performance of college students.
Oh JK1, Shin YO, Yoon JH, Kim SH, Shin HC, Hwang HJ.
Author information
Abstract

Ecklonia cava polyphenol (ECP) is a potent antioxidant and procirculatory agent that may contribute to improvement of endurance performance during highly intense exercise. This study evaluated the acute effect of an ECP-supplemented drink against a placebo on maximum endurance capacity and related physiological parameters. Twenty men 18-23 yr old volunteered as participants. Each performed 2 randomized trials with a 1-week interval between them. One trial was with ECP and the other with a placebo drink. Participants in this randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover design ingested either a placebo or ECP drink 30 min before each exercise trial. Time to exhaustion, VO(2max), and postexercise blood glucose and lactate levels were evaluated. ECP supplementation increased time to exhaustion (2.39 min) compared with placebo. This result was accompanied by a 6.5% higher mean VO(2max) in the ECP group, although the difference was not statistically significant. The blood glucose level in the ECP group at 3 min after exhaustive exercise was significantly higher than that of the placebo group (+ 9.9%). The postexercise blood lactate levels in the ECP group showed a decreasing trend compared with placebo, but it was nonsignificant. This study was not able to determine any physiological mechanisms behind the improved endurance performance, but, based on these results, it is speculated that the ECP supplementation may have contributed to enhanced oxidation of glucose and less production of lactate during intense exercise, possibly by its free-radical-scavenging and procirculatory activities. However, careful verification is required to elucidate the correct mechanism.
 
mbonheur said:
Are you not the guy that takes glycine, HMB, Betaine, etc. because it is so cheap even if it might not do a lot :)

TTA is also cheap
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HMB-Ca has a lot of positive data from disinterested researchers on it. TTA has concerns about hepatic toxicity. Unless you know of any, Betaine and Glycine do not (oh, and Glycine has good data on countering high L-Methionine intake - I don't take it for "gains").
 
The_Old_Guy said:
HMB-Ca has a lot of positive data from disinterested researchers on it. TTA has concerns about hepatic toxicity. Unless you know of any, Betaine and Glycine do not (oh, and Glycine has good data on countering high L-Methionine intake - I don't take it for "gains").
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There are now studies that show 28 days of TTA use with no issues whatsoever, so I am not too concerned about it. Btw I would not take Suppversity as a bible as they only recap a small part of the literature. We already had the same debate about Citrulline and Citrulline Malate, as I remember. There is a bunch of literature on the performance aspects of Citrulline for instance, but only the stuff on Citrulline Malate is mostly recapped.

Soo, after all that I have read on TTA, so not only Suppversity, hepatic toxicity is the least of my concerns, especially if you are doing short cycles as you should do.
 
mbonheur said:
There are now studies that show 28 days of TTA use with no issues whatsoever, so I am not too concerned about it. Btw I would not take Suppversity as a bible as they only recap a small part of the literature. We already had the same debate about Citrulline and Citrulline Malate, as I remember. There is a bunch of literature on the performance aspects of Citrulline for instance, but only the stuff on Citrulline Malate is mostly recapped.

Soo, after all that I have read on TTA, so not only Suppversity, hepatic toxicity is the least of my concerns, especially if you are doing short cycles as you should do.
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Check Eric Helms' site for all the 'Athlete' (2 or 3 but you get what you get) studies on CM, and why he changed his position and now says it *may* be worthwhile. I know Suppversity isn't "The Bible", but it's still the best source for laymen breakdowns of the studies - then you read the study, then check Examine, then Google, blah, blah... I wouldn't really worry about TTA either, but you equated my consumption of benign amino acids to it, which isn't really the same IMO. But I'd take it (and sure as heck would, over CLA LOL) if my dietary program had the possibility to increase *a lot* of fat storage (ie. "I'm going to bulk this winter on 10K kcals a day, bro"), but I rarely go 300 above TDEE. Heck, I'd take Ecklonia too if I could find it solo.
 
FYI boys, they should have arrived today - I'm swinging by my house before the gym to check it out.
Assuming its there, I'll take a serving before my workout and start the log tomorrow!
 
Hockeyaus33 said:
brundel. transdermal follidrone 2.0

lets make it happen
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Unfortunately Epicatechin isnt really realistic transdermally and Im not sure about Flos carth or Ecklonia either. I know most of the components in EC are lipophillic. Epicatechin degrades in about 12 hours if its in anything oxidating like water for example.

Plus even the best transdermals only deliver about 10% of the actives maybe 20 under the absolute best circumstances. So it wouldnt be economically viable and it wouldnt work well. Look at it like this. Its hard to get more than 50-60mg per ML into solution for most compounds Ive worked with. I know this goes up and down but not by much. So if you had 50mg epicatechin in a transdermal and it miraculously survived (it wouldnt) Then you would only get about 5mg into your system.
Plus there are 3 other actives. We would have to have a 2 liter bottle of transdermal solution with 10 bottles worth of follidrone in it for it to be marginally effective.

Some things are great for transdermals. These are those things that tend to not work orally so you cant get them in otherwise and or things that are highly stable and easily soluble.

Besides Follidrone 2.0 works great orally.
 
To me I'd only ever go transdermal to avoid hepatoxicity or increase absorption rate

Any transdermal I've ever used ends up irritating my skin eventually. Hell, maybe it's even the friction or PEG but no mater how often I rotate my spots after a few weeks I get pretty raw
 
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Wedgylx said:
To me I'd only ever go transdermal to avoid hepatoxicity or increase absorption rate

Any transdermal I've ever used ends up irritating my skin eventually. Hell, maybe it's even the friction or PEG but no mater how often I rotate my spots after a few weeks I get pretty raw
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Yah I try to avoid PEG. We use Glycerine, Prop glycol and isopropyl mystrate in EXOTHERM but not the polyethylene glycol.
 
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