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Florida School Shooting At Least 17 Dead

What do y'all think about mandatory psych evals for firearm purchases?

And moving age of AR purchase to 21?
 
Woody said:
What do y'all think about mandatory psych evals for firearm purchases?

And moving age of AR purchase to 21?
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Can psych evaluations be easily manipulated, though? Especially if you’re just getting one before you buy one, you’d have time to train to seem normal I’d think.

I thought the age was already 21 until recently.
 
thebigt said:
I read an article awhile back where the atf said they were concerned about 3d printers making non-metallic guns with plastic bullets.... it is very hard for lawmakers to keep up with technology, imo.
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Just saw you beat me to it :)
 
rascal14 said:
Serious question and slightly off topic but may fit, I was thinking of this a while back and this tragedy made me think of it again. What would be the outcome if employers/schools required every employee or student to do a biweekly or monthly counseling visit? I believe even those without a mental health issue would benefit from this and it kind of made me think how different things would or wouldn’t be.

In order to graduate or get your paycheck, you have to do some form of therapy every once in a while. Is that too controlling?
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You’re on the right track. We just need to be humans again. We all used to talk and have so much community that we didn’t need formal scheduled times to interact with another human that cares haha
 
Woody said:
What do y'all think about mandatory psych evals for firearm purchases?

And moving age of AR purchase to 21?
Click to expand...

On paper, psych evals seem sound like a good idea, but they're not that easy to do. People seem to think they're like taking a facebook quiz and Billy Ray down at the Walmart isn't going to be able to interpret them before selling a rifle. I also think it's a bad idea to have government labeling people as mentally fit as it will get exploited by both sides. Somebody takes an SSRI for migraines and now all of the sudden they're labled the same as somebody with legit psychosis.
 
rascal14 said:
Serious question and slightly off topic but may fit, I was thinking of this a while back and this tragedy made me think of it again. What would be the outcome if employers/schools required every employee or student to do a biweekly or monthly counseling visit? I believe even those without a mental health issue would benefit from this and it kind of made me think how different things would or wouldn’t be.

In order to graduate or get your paycheck, you have to do some form of therapy every once in a while. Is that too controlling?
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I like the idea, but I wouldn't make it s graduation requirement. Secondly, I teach so I am speaking from first hand experience, schools could not afford more school psychiatrists, or even a single one.

My district only provided us with a four pack whiteboard markers at the start of the year, we also provide our own tissues, hand sanitizer, etc. I have friends who work at schools that give teachers a single ream of paper then after that, teachers have to provide their own.

The lack of a budget would not allow for another 3 or more employees.
 
AntM1564 said:
I like the idea, but I wouldn't make it s graduation requirement. Secondly, I teach so I am speaking from first hand experience, schools could not afford more school psychiatrists, or even a single one.

My district only provided us with a four pack whiteboard markers at the start of the year, we also provide our own tissues, hand sanitizer, etc. I have friends who work at schools that give teachers a single ream of paper then after that, teachers have to provide their own.

The lack of a budget would not allow for another 3 or more employees.
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Of course, that goes along with the “arm the teachers” idea.. they can barely afford pencils, how would they get each teacher a handgun and active shooter training?
 
rascal14 said:
Of course, that goes along with the “arm the teachers” idea.. they can barely afford pencils, how would they get each teacher a handgun and active shooter training?
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Don't know. For the record, I'm against that as well. Putting a firearm in my classroom makes more problems than we have right now.
 
rascal14 said:
Of course, that goes along with the “arm the teachers” idea.. they can barely afford pencils, how would they get each teacher a handgun and active shooter training?
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The same group that wants to arm the teachers wants to defund public education.
 
Woody said:
The same group that wants to arm the teachers wants to defund public education.
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Unless trained very well, my previous teachers would due the majority of the killing had they been given/allowed to carry a gun. Directly and indirectly.
 
Woody said:
What do y'all think about mandatory psych evals for firearm purchases?

And moving age of AR purchase to 21?
Click to expand...

I think something in that vein would be appropriate. Appears to be the one item that would stop these recent school shootings.

I worked at a nuclear facility and everyone had to undergo a written and oral psych eval., drug test, background check.

rascal14 said:
Can psych evaluations be easily manipulated, though? Especially if you’re just getting one before you buy one, you’d have time to train to seem normal I’d think.

I thought the age was already 21 until recently.
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I believe a person would have to be trained to conceal their deception when undergoing an oral psych eval.


AntM1564 said:
Why does a regular person need a semi automatic rifle?
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Typically most useful during a period of civil disorder as in following a natural or man-made disaster.


We do not have enough data in our hands to identify what would have stopped the shootings which have occurred since the increase in the late 1990s, Columbine. Unless that is our project of focus in a professional setting. We are grasping at ideas. I do think the burden needs to be on firearm owners to find the solution as otherwise non-firearm owners will make the decision for us. Maybe not now, down the road is the issue. The New Generation and those that follow are sufficiently removed from understanding the importance of the 2nd Amendment that Advanced firearm ownership is or will be seen as some sort of fetish or worse, deviant hobby.

Here in Florida a CCW holder has to undergo a degree of training in use of force law, proficiency on the range, and a background check. Fingerprints on file with Law-Enf as well. No psych eval. We have had relatively few cases of CCW abuse in Florida. Although two recent ones have occurred-Travyon Martin case and Tampa movie theater shooting by a retired. police captain.

Having some sort of training in a group setting where the instructor evaluates students maybe more useful and less costly than having to increase armed security presence at all possible school targets across the country. Something of this sort would limit firearm ownership to the responsible citizen which is what the militia would have been in the era of the Constitution framing. It would raise the bar and standing of firearm ownership.

The old cooling down period which was a bit controversial when first attempted has proven successful. Some vetting would further increase safeguards.
 
AntM1564 said:
Why does a regular person need a semi automatic rifle?
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I have one because they're fun. They're cool to customize, sort of like legos for adults. It is a cool skill to learn because it isn't easy to hit a target dead on from certain distances. It can also be used for things like hunting coyotes. The off chance there is a zombie apocalypse, it would be helpful. Lol

I have no intent on using it for self defense. I live in an apartment building, that would be too dangerous to use if someone broke in. Shotgun for that will work just fine and be a bit safer.

UCSMiami said:
I believe a person would have to be trained to conceal their deception when undergoing an oral psych eval.
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It definitely couldn't make things worse by trying it out.
 
rascal14 said:
I have one because they're fun. They're cool to customize, sort of like legos for adults. It is a cool skill to learn because it isn't easy to hit a target dead on from certain distances. It can also be used for things like hunting coyotes. The off chance there is a zombie apocalypse, it would be helpful. Lol

I have no intent on using it for self defense. I live in an apartment building, that would be too dangerous to use if someone broke in. Shotgun for that will work just fine and be a bit safer.



It definitely couldn't make things worse by trying it out.
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I agree. My brother is a LEO interrogation instructor. He was the source of my answer that someone trained to be deceptive could pass an oral interview.

I added more to my post above.
 
rascal14 said:
Of course, that goes along with the “arm the teachers” idea.. they can barely afford pencils, how would they get each teacher a handgun and active shooter training?
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Most people suggesting the idea don't suggest the school buying firearms. They suggest letting teachers that already own one be able to take training and be allowed to bring it into the class.
 
youngandfree said:
Most people suggesting the idea don't suggest the school buying firearms. They suggest letting teachers that already own one be able to take training and be allowed to bring it into the class.
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Fair enough. It would end up costing the school something though I’m sure, or half the teachers would probably expect the school to pay for their gun or training if they couldn’t afford it themselves.
 
If kids are acting out such violence, why aren't we looking at and considering what is influencing that behavior? When I grew up, we had duck hunt that was the extent of first person shooter games. The kid last week had a history of violence against animals which is an indicator of other phychotic and violent tendencies.
 
AntM1564 said:
Why does a regular person need a semi automatic rifle?
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The AR isn't the problem nor is banning them going to solve anything. We all wish the solution was that simple. Even the most extreme pro gun people I know would gladly give up their AR if it would stop a tragedy like this from happening again. If they were banned they will still exist you just couldn't buy a new one from a store. If someone has planned ahead of time to commit murder there's lots of other options, and some that could take a lot more lives. The problem is much more complex then a gun model.
 
rascal14 said:
Fair enough. It would end up costing the school something though I’m sure, or half the teachers would probably expect the school to pay for their gun or training if they couldn’t afford it themselves.
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It's more of an liability and insurance issue then the cost of the guns. If a teacher shoots someone with a firearm the school provides the school is liable, and the person could sue.
 
89coupe said:
It's more of an liability and insurance issue then the cost of the guns. If a teacher shoots someone with a firearm the school provides the school is liable, and the person could sue.
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That's why allowing a teacher to carry one they own, after a training process, eliminates that specific risk of liability.
 
Well some will scoff at this, I think a high lumen tactical flashlight with strobe is ideal at disorientating any threat. I have one and if anyone has ever been flashed by one at up to 50' it is painful on the retina. Have to wear a welder's mask or similar to minimize the effect. Effective even in daylight. More effective at night obviously due to pupil expansion. Mine is 550 lumen. They are available up to 1200lumen.

Even a flash bang (which is essentially a low charge concussion grenade) or CS smoke will work as well. Does not have to be a deadly threat with the concomitant higher level of training and liability concerns.
 
89coupe said:
It's more of an liability and insurance issue then the cost of the guns. If a teacher shoots someone with a firearm the school provides the school is liable, and the person could sue.
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If it's not a firearm provided by the school, it eliminates this argument.
 
Woody said:
No, it doesn't. The school isn't immune from liability because they didn't provide the gun. That's a lawsuit I'd win every day
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Why aren't schools held liable for not providing adequate security during school violence? That's a lawsuit that should be won everyday.
 
youngandfree said:
Why aren't schools held liable for not providing adequate security during school violence? That's a lawsuit that should be won everyday.
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Well, they are two different claims for starters.

Secondly, one has to do with a teacher (employee) shooting a student and the other has to do with a student being violent.
 
youngandfree said:
Why aren't schools held liable for not providing adequate security during school violence? That's a lawsuit that should be won everyday.
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youngandfree's guide to posting: 1) make a statement based on opinion and very limited experience with the real world, 2) be told that his opinion isn't based on reality, 3) rather than using this moment as a learning experience, make another wild claim not based on reality to avoid having to answer anything about the previous statement, 4) repeat
 
BlockBuilder said:
That school is pretty damn close to where I live. Absolutely awful. 18 school shootings this year alone
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I am surprised no one corrected this. That number is a fabrication. It is a deliberately manipulated statistic that is meant to incite fear.
rascal14 said:
Can psych evaluations be easily manipulated, though? Especially if you’re just getting one before you buy one, you’d have time to train to seem normal I’d think.

I thought the age was already 21 until recently.
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I think 21 is for handguns, at least it used to be (in Texas) unless you were AD military. Likely because they can be concealed more easily than a rifle or shotgun.
 
jimbuick said:
I am surprised no one corrected this. That number is a fabrication. It is a deliberately manipulated statistic that is meant to incite fear.I think 21 is for handguns, at least it used to be (in Texas) unless you were AD military. Likely because they can be concealed more easily than a rifle or shotgun.
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Yeah, that stat come from Everytown for Gun Safety. They constantly publish misleading numbers which don't help. I missed that post, but there was one in the past that claimed hundreds of school shootings since Sandy Hook, which again is false as well.
 
Woody said:
Well, they are two different claims for starters.

Secondly, one has to do with a teacher (employee) shooting a student and the other has to do with a student being violent.
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I realize it's a different question all together, but is still a valid one no one is asking.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
youngandfree's guide to posting: 1) make a statement based on opinion and very limited experience with the real world, 2) be told that his opinion isn't based on reality, 3) rather than using this moment as a learning experience, make another wild claim not based on reality to avoid having to answer anything about the previous statement, 4) repeat
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Alek's guide to posting.. be a dick because I have a PhD in dick head studies.
 
youngandfree said:
I realize it's a different question all together, but is still a valid one no one is asking.
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Valid how? Do the math and then tell me that you'd honestly vote in favor of the price tag. Jim Bob the gym teacher who has been overcompensating his entire life and now gets to bring a gun to work isn't a valid answer. Letting Billy Joe the vet with PTSD who likes to brag about all the brown people he's killed shouldn't be roaming the halls either.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Valid how? Do the math and then tell me that you'd honestly vote in favor of the price tag. Jim Bob the gym teacher who has been overcompensating his entire life and now gets to bring a gun to work isn't a valid answer. Letting Billy Joe the vet with PTSD who likes to brag about all the brown people he's killed shouldn't be roaming the halls either.
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See you're off on a tangent because you can only attack everything I post. You keep lyrics ignored the question. Typical.

I never once suggested those things. You seem to always be the one overcomoensating since you go out of your way to attack other people personally.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Valid how? Do the math and then tell me that you'd honestly vote in favor of the price tag. Jim Bob the gym teacher who has been overcompensating his entire life and now gets to bring a gun to work isn't a valid answer. Letting Billy Joe the vet with PTSD who likes to brag about all the brown people he's killed shouldn't be roaming the halls either.
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it's ironic that you think these are what make up "educators" in public schools since you always talk about bwing more educated.
 
So the theory that a student may get hit during a confrontation with a school shooter and an armed employee supercede's providing any sort of meaningful defense against the same shooter will definitely keep shooting students, and won't stop till they are out of ammo or armed resistence shows up. Makes sense.
 
youngandfree said:
So the theory that a student may get hit during a confrontation with a school shooter and an armed employee supercede's providing any sort of meaningful defense against the same shooter will definitely keep shooting students, and won't stop till they are out of ammo or armed resistence shows up. Makes sense.
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Do you know how the Florida shooter got out?
He put his gun down and walked away with the other students. You are wanting untrained teachers be the schools defense system. A teacher isn't a police officer. What if the shooter is a teacher? What if one student takes a dead teachers gun to try to shoot the killer and is thought of as the attacker and killed by the untrained teacher?

The problem is the accessibility of guns, not the lack of armed folks in a high school.
 
More Gun Violence: Let’s Look Beyond Politics

Written by Ron Paul
Monday February 19, 2018

Another terrible school shooting took place in Parkland, Florida last week and unfortunately many politicians and pundits have used the tragedy – as they often do – to push their own agenda. Many will use the tragedy to argue that Americans should be prohibited from owning guns. As if anti-gun laws would dissuade a disturbed or violent individual intent on causing harm. Those intent on mass murder don’t obey gun laws.

It’s unfortunate that while many are quick to demand that guns be taken away from peaceful Americans, they don’t seem to have much to say about guns when they’re in the hands of government authorities shooting innocent people. If we need any gun control, it is to get control of the guns in the hands of thousands of government employees who use them against innocent people with impunity.

For example, why do those calling for more gun control remain silent when armed federal agents raid Amish farms to stop them from selling raw milk? This shows the hypocrisy of those who call for restrictions on private firearms ownership while supporting the use of government violence as a means of controlling our lives.

Unfortunately there are many key questions lost in the race to score political points from the shooting.

Why does it always seem that the shooter in these mass killings has been on some kind of psychotropic drugs? As the New American magazine pointed out this week, at least ten high profile mass shootings have been committed by individuals who “were either on — or just recently coming off of — psychiatric medications.” The young killer in Florida was no different. According to his aunt, he had been on these medications to treat mental problems.

Why is no one questioning these medications – all of which come with labels warning of horrific side effects? Perhaps one reason they are ignored is that the pharmaceutical industry spends billions of dollars lobbying Congress.

Also, how is it possible that the FBI once again missed so many obvious clues that a violent person intent on causing massive harm to others was about to strike? Is the FBI actually this incompetent, or perhaps its focus was in other areas -- like meddling in our own elections by presenting “evidence” they knew was flawed to the FISA court to get permission to spy on the Trump campaign?

We’ve heard many stories of how alert FBI field agents tried to alert their bosses before 9/11 that foreigners were taking flight lessons but were not interested in learning how to land the planes.

Is giving the federal government more power to spy on us – as they demand – the answer to stop these terrible crimes? Hardly!

Those who think that giving federal authorities greater surveillance powers might prevent mass shootings should consider that the FBI has been alerted that the latest school shooter had made Facebook posts and YouTube comments talking about his intention to be, as he put it, “a professional school shooter.” But the Bureau failed to properly investigate the tips. If the FBI fails to stop someone who openly boasts about their intentions on social media why should we believe that giving them the power to snoop on every American would increase our safety?

We cannot stop tragedies like this by banning guns. We need to look seriously into the psychotropic drugs that more and more Americans are being prescribed. We need to demand that our elected Representatives demand a real day of reckoning at the FBI. We need to keep focused and ignore those who politicize such events.

Copyright © 2018 by RonPaul Institute. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are given.
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Please donate to the Ron Paul Institute
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Woody said:
Do you know how the Florida shooter got out?
He put his gun down and walked away with the other students. You are wanting untrained teachers be the schools defense system. A teacher isn't a police officer. What if the shooter is a teacher? What if one student takes a dead teachers gun to try to shoot the killer and is thought of as the attacker and killed by the untrained teacher?

The problem is the accessibility of guns, not the lack of armed folks in a high school.
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There is no reason we cant have teachers/faculty train to be a armed watchful eye in the schools. It can be voluntary and responsible. They can have annual seminars working with authorities, it shouldnt be overly time consuming or expensive. Nobody is saying just throw guns at school teachers with no thought, and if they are thats just silly of them :)

Most teachers/people are good, Id take my odds on a well armed good public being able to be there for defense in times of need. We cant stop crazy.

What if a student hijacked a school bus or a bus driver went crazy (probably off of presc. meds) and drove in into water and killed 20 students by drowning? Do we ban school buses and bus drivers? Buses are armed projectiles, we can run over so many children waiting to get on the bus at certain ours. Its endlessly easy to kill.
 
ax1 said:
There is no reason we cant have teachers/faculty train to be a armed watchful eye in the schools. It can be voluntary and responsible. They can have annual seminars working with authorities, it shouldnt be overly time consuming or expensive. Nobody is saying just throw guns at school teachers with no thought, and if they are thats just silly of them :)

Most teachers/people are good, Id take my odds on a well armed good public being able to be there for defense in times of need. We cant stop crazy.

What if a student hijacked a school bus or a bus driver went crazy (probably off of presc. meds) and drove in into water and killed 20 students by drowning? Do we ban school buses and bus drivers? Buses are armed projectiles, we can run over so many children waiting to get on the bus at certain ours. Its endlessly easy to kill.
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Simple, direct question. Do you believe Sandy Hook happened as reported by the news agencies that are not Alex Jones?
 
Woody said:
Do you know how the Florida shooter got out?
He put his gun down and walked away with the other students. You are wanting untrained teachers be the schools defense system. A teacher isn't a police officer. What if the shooter is a teacher? What if one student takes a dead teachers gun to try to shoot the killer and is thought of as the attacker and killed by the untrained teacher?

The problem is the accessibility of guns, not the lack of armed folks in a high school.
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Out of all the school shootings, how many walked out in the crowd? Please point to where I said I wanted untrained teachers to be armed. Secondarily, most states have laws that allow a legal permit holder to engage a deadly threat with deadly force even though they aren't a police officer.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
Then why are you for arming teachers if this is all just staged as part of some government conspiracy?
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I dont know exactly what happened in Sandy, I never will. I just said I dont believe what happened as reported.

What is your point about arming teachers? I dont understand the question.
 
cubsfan815 said:
Soros must love how divided we are. The crying liberals and the extreme right is falling right into the trap. You think these shootings are random? Rahm Emanuel once said never let a good tragedy go to waste.

We are all being played
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Thats real now
 
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