Fenugreek . . . W T F ! ?

designgray

designgray

New member
I have a lot of respect for the fine members of A M , but this has gotten me more confussed than a cat in bag. . .

Everything I have read for the past couple of days on the internet regarding Fenugreek gives me info about BREAST FEEDING and cooking. :rant: I can not find any information showing that this is helpful to us a bodybuilders or should be incorporated in any PCT.:think:

On A M many people recommend it, but nowhere is there any science or supporting info that this should be used.

I have even read the Great Dr D recommending this on countless threads . . . I'm missing something, I'm sure other people are just as curious. So , whats up with Fenugreek ?
 
I dont quite understand it myself so I would like a better understanding of how this works with pct. everyone reports that it helps with libido but it would seem to slow the recovery. my understanding is it increases progesterone?
 
It works as a general stimulant for the endoctrine system( HPTA). It also has good insulin sensativity responce factors. It is espescially enjoyable to those who like the smell of maple!
 
Dr D introduced us all to the concept of fenugreek for PCT. Perhaps he can give you the specifics of it's actions. Progesterone and prolactin are probably involved.

All I can say is that it does bring the boys back faster.
 
One of the components - 4-hydroxy-isoleucine - is very good at improving insuline response.
Fenugreek has been shown to blunt insulin rise after eating.
 
The blood sugar stabilization is a nice unexpected bonus to fenugreek.

I can't give you a smart answer for the PCT and breast feeding, but sometimes the simplest answers are the best (ancient Chinese medicine seems somewhat based on this).

How's about Fenugreek: good for producing white liquid in both sexes. :toofunny:

All I can say is that my boys got bigger after taking Fenotest.
 
LMAO... I saw the same info bro..
 
Do you think Bromocriptine would inhibit its test boosting effects? Does it affect your circadian timing of your test functions or just boost the effect of it(meaning bromo can still be used at the same time if times correctly)
 
What is fenugreek? - Fenugreek is one of the world?s oldest medicinal herbs. It has a variety of uses, including increasing breastmilk production.

Where does it grow? - Fenugreek is indigenous to the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, but it is grown in India, Morocco, Egypt and England. The herb can grow to be about two feet tall. It blooms white flowers in the summer and has very aromatic seeds.

What is it used for ? - Fenugreek seeds are ground and roasted and used to flavor to curry. The seeds are also soaked and then powdered and used to make lip balm and tonic. The seeds can be used to make tea, which can reduce fever and menstrual pains, or they can be used in an ointment to treat skin infections. The seeds have also been used to increase libido in men and serve as an aphrodisiac. Ground seeds are often used to give a maple flavor to sweets and candies. Ground seeds are also used to flavor cattle food, including different vegetable meals and hays. Fenugreek's leaves, which are high in iron, are used in salads. Taken internally, fenugreek is used to treat bronchitis, coughs, respiratory problems, sinus conditions and to increase milk supply
 
designgray said:
Everything I have read for the past couple of days on the internet regarding Fenugreek gives me info about BREAST FEEDING and cooking. :rant: I can not find any information showing that this is helpful to us a bodybuilders or should be incorporated in any PCT.:think:
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Fenuside, a saponin found in Fenugreek appears to work by stimulating the hypothalamus to produce corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH), which then acts on the pituitary gland, leading to an increase in the production of adrenocorticotrophin hormone (ACTH). ACTH then acts on the adrenal cortex to raise androgen levels, which are then converted into testosterone.

designgray said:
...but nowhere is there any science or supporting info that this should be used.
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If this is your standard than you should avoid EVERYTHING that would require a PCT (steroids & prohormones) as nowhere is there any science or supporting info that these should be used either.

designgray said:
I have even read the Great Dr D recommending this on countless threads . . . I'm missing something, I'm sure other people are just as curious.
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The bodybuilding community provides user reports. When enough users report an effect it becomes accepted that it is so. Bloodwork is often taken and shared so that potential bad effects can be assessed. This is the closest we get to the scientific method.

I can add my own report which is that fenugreek & DHEA used after a three week SD cycle on two occassions has sufficed for my PCT with great results. No AI or SERM needed. But it is just a user report to be added to the growing list of user reports.
 
Pitbull954 said:
What is fenugreek? - Fenugreek is one of the world?s oldest medicinal herbs. It has a variety of uses, including increasing breastmilk production.

Where does it grow? - Fenugreek is indigenous to the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, but it is grown in India, Morocco, Egypt and England. The herb can grow to be about two feet tall. It blooms white flowers in the summer and has very aromatic seeds.

What is it used for ? - Fenugreek seeds are ground and roasted and used to flavor to curry. The seeds are also soaked and then powdered and used to make lip balm and tonic. The seeds can be used to make tea, which can reduce fever and menstrual pains, or they can be used in an ointment to treat skin infections. The seeds have also been used to increase libido in men and serve as an aphrodisiac. Ground seeds are often used to give a maple flavor to sweets and candies. Ground seeds are also used to flavor cattle food, including different vegetable meals and hays. Fenugreek's leaves, which are high in iron, are used in salads. Taken internally, fenugreek is used to treat bronchitis, coughs, respiratory problems, sinus conditions and to increase milk supply
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fenugreek is used to treat bronchitis, coughs, respiratory problems, sinus conditions. Maybe with my PCT.. I can finally get rid of this cough I had for the past 2 months.
 
It is also good for keeping or bringing lipids back to normal. There is also some evidence to its positive effects on liver enzyme levels.
 
Great post Meow.

Fenu just keeps getting better and better...and it's dirt cheap to boot which makes me love it more.
 
Fenukreek worked so well for me in PCT, I almost has an issue. About a week to PCT I was going to make woopie with girlfriend of mine. I was scared I might have some Noodle-wood issues going on. I made sure I added fenugreek to my PCT that day, and when the time came to get to work, I actually thought my pecker might explode. Luckily it only did metaphorically. Needless to say, it made two believers for the price of one. And seeing that I had the syrup, we made pancakes!!!
 
motiv8er said:
Fenukreek worked so well for me in PCT, I almost has an issue. About a week to PCT I was going to make woopie with girlfriend of mine. I was scared I might have some Noodle-wood issues going on. I made sure I added fenugreek to my PCT that day, and when the time came to get to work, I actually thought my pecker might explode. Luckily it only did metaphorically. Needless to say, it made two believers for the price of one. And seeing that I had the syrup, we made pancakes!!!
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I love this: "And seeing that I had the syrup, we made pancakes" LMAO

I also have Fenu in my PCT.. start in 2 weeks.
 
This stuff really works, lol funny story I told my workout partner to try these 2 pills, (fenugreek) I told him they were a new multi Vit.... Anyway about 45 minutes later he was like man I'm really umm in the mood saying it in a nice way lol.... It works good, seems to loose its affect a bit after a while but that is normal with anything.
 
Pitbull954 said:
This stuff really works, lol funny story I told my workout partner to try these 2 pills, (fenugreek) I told him they were a new multi Vit.... Anyway about 45 minutes later he was like man I'm really umm in the mood saying it in a nice way lol.... It works good, seems to loose its affect a bit after a while but that is normal with anything.
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so what is the dose... 500mg for a few days, then up to 1g for a week, then 1.5...etc.. then ramp down?
 
BigBoy12 said:
so what is the dose... 500mg for a few days, then up to 1g for a week, then 1.5...etc.. then ramp down?
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Dr D told me your first 4 weeks of PCT use it, 3 pills, 4-5-6 than stop it no matter how long your PCT is because your body gets used to it and will have no affect.
 
Pitbull954 said:
Dr D told me your first 4 weeks of PCT use it, 3 pills, 4-5-6 than stop it no matter how long your PCT is because your body gets used to it and will have no affect.
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I'm lost.. what is 4-5-6 than stop?
 
BigBoy12 said:
I'm lost.. what is 4-5-6 than stop?
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Oh sorry I meant your first week in pct take 3 pills per day than 2nd week in pct take 4 pills, 3rd week take 5 pills, and 4 week take 6 pills. I take mine thru out the day and its working pretty good :woohoo:
 
Pitbull954 said:
Oh sorry I meant your first week in pct take 3 pills per day than 2nd week in pct take 4 pills, 3rd week take 5 pills, and 4 week take 6 pills. I take mine thru out the day and its working pretty good :woohoo:
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ok, now with food or without... and do you have to cycle down at all.. or can you just stop at 6 a day (seems like a lot)
 
BigBoy12 said:
ok, now with food or without... and do you have to cycle down at all.. or can you just stop at 6 a day (seems like a lot)
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The bottle of fen that I have is from Now Foods and it doesn't say to take with food. I usually take it about 30 minutes after a meal. Yeah just stop it after the 4th week because most people (not everyone) it will lose its effect so just cold turkey it and your boys should be good to go. :run:
 
Pitbull954 said:
The bottle of fen that I have is from Now Foods and it doesn't say to take with food. I usually take it about 30 minutes after a meal. Yeah just stop it after the 4th week because most people (not everyone) it will lose its effect so just cold turkey it and your boys should be good to go. :run:
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cool.. I have the same bottle, but it's at work.. only 10 days in my SD..so I have about another 11 days or so before PCT
 
BigBoy12 said:
cool.. I have the same bottle, but it's at work.. only 10 days in my SD..so I have about another 11 days or so before PCT
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Well good luck eat and sleep alot! And of course train hard
 
anabolicrhino said:
It works as a general stimulant for the endoctrine system( HPTA). It also has good insulin sensativity responce factors. It is espescially enjoyable to those who like the smell of maple!
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If boosting the endocrine system is the reason , just take forskolin instead, and you'll get these results, with fatloss added...
 
jeffas66 said:
If boosting the endocrine system is the reason , just take forskolin instead, and you'll get these results, with fatloss added...
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I'm so tired.. when I read this I thought it said "take foreskin" LMAO...
 
Pitbull954 said:
Oh sorry I meant your first week in pct take 3 pills per day than 2nd week in pct take 4 pills, 3rd week take 5 pills, and 4 week take 6 pills. I take mine thru out the day and its working pretty good :woohoo:
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Are there any noticable effects from this, if so what are they?

Ive got a bottle I bought less than a year ago, I found that it was raising my blood pressure.
 
Rexy said:
Are there any noticable effects from this, if so what are they?

Ive got a bottle I bought less than a year ago, I found that it was raising my blood pressure.
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The only thing that I'm seeing is a raise in my libido. From what I have read about it that is its main purpose for males.
 
Will it have any effect while on T?
I am on HRT so never come off, and am wondering if it will increase testicle size or ejaculate if taking T cyp?
If so what amt?

Thanks
 
BigBoy12 said:
so what is the dose... 500mg for a few days, then up to 1g for a week, then 1.5...etc.. then ramp down?
Click to expand...

Like pitbull said.. ramp the dosages up for 3-4 weeks as your PCT progress. After that, stop since you`re body will be accustomed to it as Dr. D pointed out in one of his postings. If you really want to ensure the "boys are back" just get some Fenu,DHEA, and Clomi. You`ll be good in 3 weeks in my opinion.
 
Ive been using about 1500 mg of fenugreek for about 1 month and have seen my volume and quallity get much better.
 
I have a lot of respect for the fine members of A M , but this has gotten me more confussed than a cat in bag. . .

Everything I have read for the past couple of days on the internet regarding Fenugreek gives me info about BREAST FEEDING and cooking. I can not find any information showing that this is helpful to us a bodybuilders or should be incorporated in any PCT.

On A M many people recommend it, but nowhere is there any science or supporting info that this should be used.

I have even read the Great Dr D recommending this on countless threads . . . I'm missing something, I'm sure other people are just as curious. So , whats up with Fenugreek ?

Check out HGC designray, LOL.

It looks even wackier on paper.
 
In regards to Fenugreek...I swear it was the cause of a slight development under my left nipple which has since subsided though....i felt no benefits...thats all i was taking at the time too and nothing for quite some time prior to or after it. I dislike it myself but thats just my opinion. Now if you wanna talk Activate, then thats a diff story!!!
 
a little help please, what is pct, please don't tell me to read back posts I am 60 and a structural ironworker and my time is limited,
 
Dennis,
It is the process of getting the testicles and rest of the body towards homeostasis after period of exogeneous hormones. There is a whole Post Cycle Therapy Section located under Anabolics, I highly encourage you to invest some time there and see what it is all about.
 
dennis25271 said:
a little help please, what is pct, please don't tell me to read back posts I am 60 and a structural ironworker and my time is limited,
Click to expand...


In addition to what motiv8er said, here it is on a silver platter Dennis. Enjoy:study: oh yeah, check out RED for a good PCT cycle from Dr.D himself.

Post Cycle Therapy

This reference is for educational purposes only. If you need post cycle therapy, see your physician. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Much of what you find here will have come straight from the forums at Invalid Link Removed. [/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Goals of post cycle therapy: Stimulation of the HPTA (Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SERM[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) [/FONT]- Block estrogen from acting on tissue.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nolvadex (tamoxifen citrate)
10mg tablets = 15.2mg of tamoxifen citrate which is equivalent to 10mg of tamoxifen.
20mg tablets = 30.4mg of tamoxifen citrate which is equivalent to 20mg of tamoxifen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Raloxifene - Raloxifene is a selective estrogen receptor modulator that produces both estrogen-agonistic effects on bone and lipid metabolism and estrogen-antagonistic effects on uterine endometrium and breast tissue.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid) - Clomid is capable of reacting with all of the tissues in the body that have estrogen receptors. It influences the way that the four hormones GnRH, FSH, LH and estradiol, relate and interrelate. It appears that Clomid fools the body into believing that the estrogen level is low. This altered feedback information causes the hypothalamus to make and release more gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which in turn causes the pituitary to make and release more FSH and LH. More follicle stimulating hormone and more luteinizing hormone should result in increased testosterone production.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Droloxifine (experimental) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Idoxifene (experimental) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Toremifene Citrate (experimental) - Less toxic than tamoxifen citrate and better on lipids and bone density. Discussions: 1 2[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]AI[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s (Aromatase Inhibitors): Aromatase is the enzyme that causes the conversion of testosterone into estradiol and androstenedione into estrone. Aromatase inhibitors lower the amount of estrogen in post-menopausal women who have hormone-receptor-positive breast cancer. The hormone estrogen delivers growth signals to the hormone receptors. With less estrogen in the body, the hormone receptors receive fewer growth signals, and cancer growth can be slowed down or stopped.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6-OXO (chemical name: 3,6,17-androstenetrione) - A suicide inhibitor of aromatase. Binds to the aromatase enzyme in a permanent and irreversible manner, rendering it inactive. The result of this is an eventual diminishment of aromatase enzyme in the body and a concomitant reduction in estrogen levels. A corresponding increase in testosterone production is usually experienced as well. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Arimidex (chemical name: anastrozole) - Type 2 "non-steroidal inhibitors." They also stop the activity of the aromatase enzyme, but not permanently.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aromasin (chemical name: exemestane) - Type 1 "steroidal inhibitor," which stops the activity of the aromatase enzyme forever[/FONT].
Chrysin - Chrysin is a flavonoid that has been purported especially in the bodybuilding world to be an effective inhibitor of an enzyme known as aromatase. European Olympic athletes report 1-3 grams of chrysin per day is a safe and effective dose. Chrysin may have poor bioavailability. Discuss
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Femara (chemical name: letrozole) - Type 2 "non-steroidal inhibitors." They also stop the activity of the aromatase enzyme, but not permanently.[/FONT]
Ester C (Vitamin C) - Has some natural Aromatase Inhibiting properties. 2-4 grams of Ester C per day should be safe.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ATD (1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione):[/FONT] Stops estrogen production?
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rebound XT[/FONT] - Can be run inversely to a SERM. This is best when hCG is included. As the SERM dose goes down and hCG is phased out over a few wks, the [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rebound XT[/FONT] goes up. I've posted everywhere on this method. Also, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rebound XT[/FONT] can be used solo for uncomplicated PCTs when stacked with DHEA and Fenugreek for short, oral only cycles (1 month or less). Last, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rebound XT[/FONT] can be used at the very end of a PCT just to taper off of SERMs. I haven't tried it yet, but it makes sense for longer PCTs or when an edge on test production or reduced estrogen is desired long term.
Ultra H.O.T.
Ultra H.O.T.ter
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Anastrazole[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Letrozole[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Novedex XT [/FONT]

Discussion on running SERM inverse to ATD
Estrogen only "rebounds" based on the mechanism of suppression. SERM, for example, only masks estrogen expression by occupying receptors but estrogen production is left unchecked and actually increases as testosterone levels increase. AI's like letro inhibit inducible enzymes and just like a leaky faucet, they body will eventually try to balance the equation with increased aromatase activity. Steroidal AI's like Teslac, Exemestane, and ReboundXT will not result in 'rebound' phenomena because the inhibition is non-competitive and irreversible. They act as false substrates, so aromatase is still happy to act on them (instead of androstenedione) and the body keeps no record of an imbalance. There is no leaky faucet. In fact, after prolonged use, steroidal AI's often produce a protracted anti-e benefit even after being discontinued. This is why I suggest an inverse taper with SERM and RXT for PCT with an abrupt stoppage of RXT at the end. As the SERM elevates androgen/estrogen production, the AI dose is increased to compensate while the SERM is phased out. It works quite well to use this approach and rebound is not encountered. Adding LX and/or DHEA also really makes for a killer PCT in this scheme. This is a typical example of my PCT:

wk1: Clomid 150mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 75mg/d
wk2: Clomid 100mg/d, RXT 25mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 50mg/d
wk3: Nolva 60mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 200mg/d, LX 25mg/d
wk4: Nolva 40mg/d, RXT 50mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk5: Nolva 20mg/d, RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d
wk6: RXT 75mg/d, DHEA 100mg/d

Notice I phase the Clomid out and introduce the Nolva later. This helps prevent sides from developing from accumulation of estrogenic metabolites from the Clomid and also acts to minimize the use of Nolva, which is more liver toxic than Clomid. Rebound is very unlikely and estrogen biosynthesis will likely be significantly lowered for 3+ wks even after the end of this PCT. I do long ones, as you can see.
Read the entire discussion here

The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol, Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time. Invalid Link Removed.
Steroid


Time after last administration Length of clomid cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50


8 - 12 hours3 weeks
Deca durabolan


3 weeks4 weeks
Dianabol


4 - 8 hours3 weeks
Equipoise


17 - 21 days3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone

​

3 days3 weeks
Primabolan depot

​

10 - 14 days2 weeks
Sustanon


3 weeks3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate

​

2 weeks3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron

​

2 weeks3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate


3 days3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension

​

4 - 8 hours2-3 weeks
Winstrol


8 - 12 hours2-3 weeks
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Other products to help increase natural testosterone or aid workouts during PCT[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tribulus[/FONT], [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fenugreek[/FONT], Forskolin, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]DHEA[/FONT], [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rebound XT[/FONT], [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rebound Reloaded, Reduce XT, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ActivaTe[/FONT], [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Anabolic Xtreme PCT, Retain (reduce cortisol), Lean Extreme (reduce cortisol), CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester). [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nitric Oxide [/FONT](NO2), [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ultra H.O.T., Ultra HOTTER [/FONT]
ActivaTe - Should be used starting the last wk or 2 wks of a cycle and continued for no longer than 8 total weeks into PCT. 6 weeks seems perfect to me. The first and last week of dosing should consist of a half dose, and the weeks in between full doses. It's okay to take more than the full dose too because it's effects are non-toxic and dose dependent.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Products to help with blood pressure and cholesterol regulation / liver and support[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Liver: K-R-ALA, NAC ( N-Acetyl-Cysteine), Milk Thistle (80% standardized Silymarin), Lecithin[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cholesterol: Sesathin, Guggul, Red Yeast Rice*, CoEnzyme Q10*, Flax Seed Oil, Safflower Oil*, Policosanol*, Niacin, Garlic, Hawthorn Berry (helps regulate blood pressure as well), Pantethine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Blood Pressure: Coenzyme Q10, Garlic (best with high concentration of Allicin), Celery Seed Extract (best with high concentration of 3NB), C-12 Peptide. Also, high-dose vitamin B6 and vitamin C. High-dose vitamin D is also beneficial for Blood Pressure (not sure how, though).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Anti-Estrogens[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nolvadex[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Proviron (Mesterolone)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Basic Post Cycle Therapy[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:[/FONT]
Clomid:
Day 1: 300mg
Day 2-11: 100mg daily
Day 12-21: 50mg daily
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Clomid[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:
week 1: 150mg
week 2: 100
week 3: 50
week 4: 50 [/FONT]
Tamoxifen:
Week 1 (or 2): 40-50 mg daily.
Week 2 (or 3) through week 4 (or 5): 20-25mg daily.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tamoxifen[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]:
week 1: 40mg daily
week 2: 40mg daily
week 3: 20mg daily
week 4: 20mg daily[/FONT]
​
 
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