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Estane VS H-drol, Which will do more for me?

TheBreeze

TheBreeze

Active member
So Im scheduled to have surgery this Friday to fix an inguinal hernia Ive had for a while, and the Dr says I will be outta the gym, unable to lift more than 20lbs for 8 weeks.(yeah, Im gonna go stir crazy)

I currently have 3 unopened bottles of H-drol and 2 unopened bottles of Estane, both of which need to be ran cause they expire this year.

I want to run a PH/DS a few weeks after returning to the gym for several reasons, the biggest is to get my strength back to a respectable level and to lose the fat Im probably going to accuire from 8 weeks of no lifting.

My question for you guys here on AM is which of the two stated compounds will help me achieve my desired results better? This will be my 3rd cycle, the first was a VERY successful H-drol x 4 weeks with OTC PCT. The second was a successful but very angry and lethargic P-mag x 6 weeks.

I have concerns with both compounds with Estane being the possiblity for gyno and H-drol seemed to make me kinda depressed. Honestly, Id rather be depressed than have moobs but I hear Epi compounds pack on lots of strength while dropping BF very well. However, during my first run of H-drol my diet was kinda sloppy with NO cardio and I was still shredding up well into PCT.

I have a DS *TLA* stack planned for PCT with a bottle of Tamox citrate laying around from my last cycle which I am shying away from due to severe aggression sides from it.

So for those who have ran either or both, I would really appreciate some of your opinions regarding sides:gains and what types of PCT you ran and your success rate.

I know this is a lenthy post but I figure it easier to state everything at once rather than have 30 post with 1 sentenct a piece.

Thanks in advance
 
mw1 said:
I wouod probably wait a bit longer than 8 weeks after surgery to do a PH. Try something like DAA 7-8 weeks after surgery and get some of your strength back;)
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Not to sound dumb or anything, but whats the reasoning behind waiting? I also forgot to mention the cycle wont be right away, Im gonna go at it at least until the constant soreness is good and gone and muscle memory has kicked back in. Either way I respect your opinion MW1, Im just curious.

I will look into DAA in the mean time.
 
TheBreeze said:
Not to sound dumb or anything, but whats the reasoning behind waiting? I also forgot to mention the cycle wont be right away, Im gonna go at it at least until the constant soreness is good and gone and muscle memory has kicked back in. Either way I respect your opinion MW1, Im just curious.

I will look into DAA in the mean time.
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As much as it sucks, it's probably not too wise to get too strong, too quickly, as it would be more likely to aggravate your injuries after the surgery. I mean, I doubt your doc is taking into account the possibility of you using AAS in order to rebound from the surgery, and as such the time restraint of possible re-injury of 8 weeks would be an underestimate in this case. While I doubt it increases the risk that much(I'm definitely no doctor, of course...), it's always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to your health.
 
Noumenon said:
As much as it sucks, it's probably not too wise to get too strong, too quickly, as it would be more likely to aggravate your injuries after the surgery. I mean, I doubt your doc is taking into account the possibility of you using AAS in order to rebound from the surgery, and as such the time restraint of possible re-injury of 8 weeks would be an underestimate in this case. While I doubt it increases the risk that much(I'm definitely no doctor, of course...), it's always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to your health.
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point well taken. I talked to the Dr a few days ago and to my surprise he said I should only be about 80% strength after 8 weeks. After hearing that I figured it'll probably be a little closer to summertime when I start my cycle.

However, I am still up in the air whether to run H-drol or Estane. I know h-drol works but Im hearing good things on Epi compounds other than the strong shut down and possibility of gyno.

But I have plenty of time to research so hopefully I will make the best decision.
 
Not sure if hair loss is a concern of yours, but I hear Epi compounds accelerate hair loss pretty bad if you're prone to it. I have plenty of Epi, but I'm going to wait until my hair is almost gone before I use it! :D
 
diablosho said:
Not sure if hair loss is a concern of yours, but I hear Epi compounds accelerate hair loss pretty bad if you're prone to it. I have plenty of Epi, but I'm going to wait until my hair is almost gone before I use it! :D
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:silly:

Honestly Im kind of leaning in favor of H-drol simply due to the possibility of gyno and Ive heard of a few guys being shut down really bad post epi cycles. Plus Ive had excellent results with Halo in the past, and knowing what I know now, 2 yrs later, I think I could better those results a bit.

Plus, I really want to stay away out of my bottle of Tamox citrate if at all possible cause Im pretty sure that was what almost sent me into a murderous rampage in my last PCT.:AR15firing:

As of now, I have one full DS TAL mega stack at the house with another one on its way, one or both of which I hope to use for an OTC PCT. However, I do have some tamox if I feel I am shut down hard after whatever I choose to run.
 
i had no shutdown running epi (along with 3ad) but hair shedding was there.

I will try H drol next week so I can tell you about it in a month or so...
 
Dude, EVERY SINGLE post of yours has been asking where to get tamoxifen (or SERMs in general). And, I know someone with much reputation has helped you out! How many times are you going to break the rules?!? I see a lot of the newer guys ask for sources, and I usually give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't know it was wrong, but come on man, 6 TIMES out of 6 posts, and you've been around long enough to know it is wrong! Very, very few people are going to help you find a source (against board rules, and will get you banned), that is something you have to do on your own like everyone else does (including me)! And trust me, I've been tempted to ask in the past as well! And, if you can't find a reputable source, see a doctor. Don't mean to be rude, but it seems you need someone to give it to you straight.
 
JT SAINT said:
ok sorry everyone
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Phew...good thing you cleared that up diablosho, cause I was gonna say something to him myself cause I definitely don't want that talk in any thread I started or am a part of.

Looks like maybe he figured it out though. :slap:
 
Ive ran both epi and h-drol
Epi can increase hair loss due to it being a DHT based compound.
I had raging libido on both epi and h-drol.
I prefer epi for strength, size, and fat loss no doubt.
If ran h-drol as high as 250mg and epi as high as 90mg (these are real no joke, having your "boy" set your cycles up is dumb for the most part, he knew his stuff tho, my liver values are perfect btw)
I get reduced gyno with epi.
Epi is my fav compound behind test prop...
 
SweetLou321 said:
Ive ran both epi and h-drol
Epi can increase hair loss due to it being a DHT based compound.
I had raging libido on both epi and h-drol.
I prefer epi for strength, size, and fat loss no doubt.
If ran h-drol as high as 250mg and epi as high as 90mg (these are real no joke, having your "boy" set your cycles up is dumb for the most part, he knew his stuff tho, my liver values are perfect btw)
I get reduced gyno with epi.
Epi is my fav compound behind test prop...
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Wow, 250mgs of Halo is insane:yikes:

Thanks for the opinions though. Im sure you ran a serm with doses that high, right? Cause Im really trying to stay clear of mine for this next cycle if at all possible.

I really want to run the Epi for the possible added size benefits but I also want to drop some serious BF% with this cycle so Im still a little unsure on what to run.


By the way, to all CEL reps out there: I have enough supps to run DS's 12 weeks Triazole, AX, LX cycle which I am planning on using as an otc PCT. Would this suffice in you guys opinions?
The reason behind this choice is one that its all OTC and two it appears to offer significant recomp effects from a non-hormonal approach. Plus it should keep my strenght up through the end of summer.
Just wondering your opinions here at CEL.
Thanks :)
 
Yes it is, i did infact use serms for my pcts plus other goodies and did alot alot alot of cycling and bridging to boot.
But you wanna stay clear of a serm yet cycle?
Id say to just buy some clomid or the other serm (name escapes me at this time but its wonderfull and brings the boys and everything back up to par in about 1-2 weeks)
Id pick epi as the dosage and results kill hdrol in my opinion. 250 gave me crazy resutls but 100 didnt and neither did 75 when i ran it again.
 
SweetLou321 said:
Yes it is, i did infact use serms for my pcts plus other goodies and did alot alot alot of cycling and bridging to boot.
But you wanna stay clear of a serm yet cycle?
Id say to just buy some clomid or the other serm (name escapes me at this time but its wonderfull and brings the boys and everything back up to par in about 1-2 weeks)
Id pick epi as the dosage and results kill hdrol in my opinion. 250 gave me crazy resutls but 100 didnt and neither did 75 when i ran it again.
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Yeah, I would like to not have to use the Nolva I have since I believe it gave me insane aggression sides the first time I used it. However, I do still have it and would run it again if I had to. I ran it after my Pmag cycle for only about 10 days and lost pretty much all the weight I gained but kept ALL the strength and even made a few PRs in PCT.

On another note, if a SERM can bring the boys back in 10-14 days, would it be a bad idea to only run Nolva for that long then stick to the OTC stuff? Just curious.
 
Well nolva and clomid dont do what the other one does, the other is much much much better in terms of results and sides.
But you could do 40/20 for 2 weeks along side a strong natty stack, personally i just went with a serm and maybe a test booster lol.
 
SweetLou321 said:
Well nolva and clomid dont do what the other one does, the other is much much much better in terms of results and sides.
But you could do 40/20 for 2 weeks along side a strong natty stack, personally i just went with a serm and maybe a test booster lol.
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By "other one" you're referring to Torem, correct?

But 40/20 seems kinda high for a mild PH cycle (ie: Epi or H-drol)
I was thinking something like 20/10 for the first 2 weeks of PCT followed by a 12 week run of DS natty TAL stack.

Im pretty confident with the DS stack, I just want to be sure I can combat any level of shut down prior to dropping the SERM, if indeed I do need it.

The only reason I think 20/10 will work is because I ran 20mgs of Nolva for about 10 or so days with my last PCT before I dropped it off all at once without tapering off.
 
Hdrol is a methylated steriod that convert to tbol in the body, not mild
Epi is a dht based steriod, no conversion, strong and powerful, estrogen reducer too, not mild
But ive done pcts with and without serms, with and without stacks, blah blah blah just make sure diet and food are on point and use a serm for a lil to help restart hpta and use ur DS stack, id do 40 for 3-4 days then 20 for 3-4 days then 10 for the remainder to get to 2 weeks of the serm.
And yes im talking about torem, thanks
 
SweetLou321 said:
Hdrol is a methylated steriod that convert to tbol in the body, not mild
Epi is a dht based steriod, no conversion, strong and powerful, estrogen reducer too, not mild
But ive done pcts with and without serms, with and without stacks, blah blah blah just make sure diet and food are on point and use a serm for a lil to help restart hpta and use ur DS stack, id do 40 for 3-4 days then 20 for 3-4 days then 10 for the remainder to get to 2 weeks of the serm.
And yes im talking about torem, thanks
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I hear ya about them not being mild. When I said that I was referring I guess to the fact that compounds like SD that can be wicked on the body.

I am fully aware that Im putting steroids into my body, am I proud of it...No but would I be where I am without them, honestly, I don't think so. Blah, blah, blah:rant2:...that's a whole different conversation on a different forum.

As far as diet goes, Im planning on either a lean/clean bulk ~300g carbs/day or a moderately low carb diet <150g carbs/day. Again this all depends on what compound I decide to run.

After talking with you I beginning to lean towards the Epi again. Also, I like your opinion on the Nolva dosing. I actually considered suggesting something kinda like that but I didn't want to possibly get bashed for trying to run a serm for only 2 weeks cause Ive never seen anyone with a set up like that.

So thanks, I appreciate your input SweetLou321
 
It really depends on the person uve done hdrol. Id suggest you try epi? I love it.
Also pct is a new age bs research lacking practice. The old school guys never did pct, its a new thing. Not even doctors are educated on the practive of pct in steroid usuage and trt. It is suppose to help the hpta. So use it for 2 weeks and see how you feel. Use your DS stack with should also help your hpta, lh, fsh, free test, estro, prolactin levels, idk if your gonna run lean x or not but that will lower cortisol and leave you in the ideal spot post cycle.
Also i have trouble bulking when off cycle on 4000ish cals a day and what not but easily recomped on epi at 2500 cals, crazy full pumps, strength, fat loss, mass. High protein, mod carbs, and mod fats work well with epi, on top of that there is lil lethargy since it doesnt demand food to be effective compared to sd. best of luck
 
SweetLou321 said:
ItAlso pct is a new age bs research lacking practice.
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:clap2: ^^^ Couldnt have said it better myself.

As far as torem goes what is the ideal starting point for PCT? Ive seen some guys running 200 some odd mgs and other in only 100s. I ask because I may have a possible link to some decent liquid Torem.
 
Actually, (at least in my eyes), I believe the MAIN use for PCT is to prevent gyno/normalize estrogen. Your hormones will (almost) always balance out to normal, but the main question is how high your estradiol will get in the process (potentially causing gyno) before coming back down to normal? SERMs are proven to allow estradiol to be high, without acting on breast tissue or the hypothalamus, tricking the brain into thinking you have low estradiol, thus increasing lh (and natty test), and still allowing aromatization to estradiol to occur. This will normalize your testosterone (or slightly elevate it). Then, as you lower the SERM dosage, more estradiol gradually begins to act on the hypothalamus over time, gradually lowering your LH, decreasing test production back to normal (gently), also lowering estradiol to normal. They have been proven to do this very effectively, so long as you know what you're doing (I'm still learning, btw). Most people you see with gyno THESE days used ineffective PCT protocols (or no PCT at all). This is why for every cycle I've run, I always use a SERM (or combination of Tamox and Clomid), varying the dosage depending on the level of shutdown as shown on lab tests. Just my $.02.

Also, epi is pretty androgenic, so again, some people (myself included) probably cannot use epi due to hair-loss/prostate sides. But yes, if these are not an issue for you, I would probably also suggest epi (I sure wish I could use some of the epi I currently have on hand!) BTW, most sites suggest epi is 3.25x more androgenic as Halodrol (but more liver toxic), and 14.9x more anabolic. Definite potential there, if the sides aren't an issue :D! Or, you can go with S-Drol, which is 5.4x more anabolic, and .7x as anabolic (defintitely more liver toxic :D)! H-Drol with a 3-week low-dose SD kickstart sounds good (that's what I did after my hip surgeries). I'm pleased with the results :D! Anywho, hope I helped!
 
TheBreeze said:
:clap2: ^^^ Couldnt have said it better myself.

As far as torem goes what is the ideal starting point for PCT? Ive seen some guys running 200 some odd mgs and other in only 100s. I ask because I may have a possible link to some decent liquid Torem.
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I posted some recent research studies with Torem in the PCT section. I'll see if I can find a link!
 
If i recall i did 80mg for 3 days, 60mg for 3 days, 40mg for 3 days, 20mg for 3 days. lol im not huge on serms as they put a lot of stress on the body as phs do. But you already have nolva, id just go with that. I would just mentally believe that your pct will be awsome, it will work, and youll keep all ur gains. the mind is more powerfull then any pct, the old guys never complained their post cycle supps didnt help them keep their 10lbs they got lol
 
Here's the link I posted in February regarding Toremifene research dosages (in men, btw)! Invalid Link Removed

Shows it's effects in gyno prevention in men with androgen shutdown (like us after steroid use).
 
diablosho said:
Here's the link I posted in February regarding Toremifene research dosages (in men, btw)! Invalid Link Removed

Shows it's effects in gyno prevention in men with androgen shutdown (like us after steroid use).
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It must be me cause I didnt see anywhere in that article where it mentioned anything abour gyno prevention or much about increased test levels. I think I just didnt understand it very well.

From what I gathered from it...80mgs of Torem seemed to significantly increase bone mass in elderly men. Honestly I didnt really understand the last paragraph or so, but its 1:30am so this is to be expected:D

Either way, thanks, but I am prolly gonna stick with my nolva to save the $.

Also I see lots of guys giving specific examples of Clomid sides but I have yet to find a straight forward answer to the question of Nolva sides.:think:
 
TheBreeze said:
It must be me cause I didnt see anywhere in that article where it mentioned anything abour gyno prevention or much about increased test levels. I think I just didnt understand it very well.

From what I gathered from it...80mgs of Torem seemed to significantly increase bone mass in elderly men. Honestly I didnt really understand the last paragraph or so, but its 1:30am so this is to be expected:D

Either way, thanks, but I am prolly gonna stick with my nolva to save the $.

Also I see lots of guys giving specific examples of Clomid sides but I have yet to find a straight forward answer to the question of Nolva sides.:think:
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Well, you're kind of right. The study was with men with androgen deficit (i.e. not possible to increase test). If you go to their website, it shows the percentage of people in the study in which gyno was prevented. Either way, the study states:

"In the study, toremifene 80 mg treatment demonstrated statistically significant reductions compared to placebo in new morphometric vertebral fractures (the primary endpoint), in all nontraumatic fractures, and in first of either a nontraumatic fracture or greater than 7% bone loss. Toremifene 80 mg treatment compared to placebo also resulted in statistically significant increases in bone mineral density at the lumbar spine, hip, and femur; improvements in lipid profiles including a reduction in LDL, triglycerides and total cholesterol and an increase in HDL; and improvements in breast pain and tenderness"

Either way, you're right, it's not DIRECTLY applicable to us, and there are flaws. But it is the only study (that I'm aware of) which shows SERM use on MEN with ANDROGEN DEFICIENCY, and being effective at 80mg. So take it with a grain of salt, but it's still more applicable than many other tests people use for their SERMs.
 
diablosho said:
Either way, you're right, it's not DIRECTLY applicable to us, and there are flaws. But it is the only study (that I'm aware of) which shows SERM use on MEN with ANDROGEN DEFICIENCY, and being effective at 80mg. So take it with a grain of salt, but it's still more applicable than many other tests people use for their SERMs.
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Thats what I understood it to be. Either way, great find.
 
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