Answered Epistane without PCT (Doctor suggestion)

hairygrandpa said:
I nowadays try to avoid AI's and use proviron. Somehow proviron is more forgiving and does not end in a guessing game if e2 is high -or low.
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I’m planning to do something very golden era soon (next year?) and use about a gram of primo a week, with clomid and proviron on cycle and in pct. would be starting it with dianabol and finishing with halotestin or huge doses of proviron. Not sure which yet.

It sounds like fun.
 
Indiglospaz said:
Can anyone explain how a serm kickstarts your nuts into producing again?
Selective estrogen receptor modulator, so like a sarm but for estrogen? So it makes you produce more estrogen? I actually had my doctor ask me how a serm gets you back to baseline. I didn't have an answer, just that I knew I had to use it for PCT
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No one answered this, so I’ll touch on it real quick. Don’t compare SERMs to SARMs. SARMs are meant to bind to and strongly activate the androgen receptor, causing desirable effects, such as muscle growth. SERMs are meant to bind to estrogen receptors and activate very weakly, causing a net decrease in estrogenic effects in the body. Neither is meant to increase production of its “corresponding” hormone. The idea is that a SERM will bind receptors in the hypothalamus and decrease estrogenic activity there. Estrogen plays a role in the negative feedback loop for testosterone production. By decreasing that, you inhibit the inhibition, which will lead to increased test production.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
No one answered this, so I’ll touch on it real quick. Don’t compare SERMs to SARMs. SARMs are meant to bind to and strongly activate the androgen receptor, causing desirable effects, such as muscle growth. SERMs are meant to bind to estrogen receptors and activate very weakly, causing a net decrease in estrogenic effects in the body. Neither is meant to increase production of its “corresponding” hormone. The idea is that a SERM will bind receptors in the hypothalamus and decrease estrogenic activity there. Estrogen plays a role in the negative feedback loop for testosterone production. By decreasing that, you inhibit the inhibition, which will lead to increased test production.
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Very well put. Just be careful not to “try and sound scientific” That’s only for Doctors and not for us peasant folk.

The arrogance in the medical community has gone from irritating to downright disgusting.
 
aaat2007 said:
I don't think this is scientifically correct. Test is produced and then inhibited by several downstream products, if thats what you mean by pulsatile. The only other thing rhythmic/pulsatile about testosterone is related to the circadian rhythm, sleep cycles, etc. This involves different hormones, including HGH, but the receptor/enzyme kinetics are the same. MM kinetics still applies at the root of everything. It's the foundation for which drugs, hormones, proteins interact with each other. Without this principle, there is no such thing as dose-dependent effects. Hence, tappering does work, although not for bodybuilding purposes.
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Test is produced and then inhibited by several downstream products.

When this happens normally, the body is in its natural homeostatic rhythm.

When this rhythm is disrupted, any amount of further disruption delays reset.

Plain and simple.

Receptor kinetics definitely apply, but you’re completely missing how negative feedback in the hypothalamus works.

Tapering does not work for anyone concerned about retaining lifelong testicular function.
 
Old Witch said:
Receptor kinetics definitely apply, but you’re completely missing how negative feedback in the hypothalamus works.
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One common problem I’ve noticed in medicine these days is almost everyone looks at things in isolation. When dealing with a human, you have to look at the whole system and somehow so many doctors miss this. And random folks on a board get it.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
One common problem I’ve noticed in medicine these days is almost everyone looks at things in isolation. When dealing with a human, you have to look at the whole system and somehow so many doctors miss this. And random folks on a board get it.
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Weird how that works, eh?
 
Not to toot my own horn but I like to think that if performance enhancement were considered a legitimate medical vocation, I would have been one of the better PE docs.
 
Old Witch said:
Test is produced and then inhibited by several downstream products.

When this happens normally, the body is in its natural homeostatic rhythm.

When this rhythm is disrupted, any amount of further disruption delays reset.

Plain and simple.

Receptor kinetics definitely apply, but you’re completely missing how negative feedback in the hypothalamus works.

Tapering does not work for anyone concerned about retaining lifelong testicular function.
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Negative feedback involves receptor kinetics. If you are implying that negative feedback does not, and therefore ANY exogenous hormone can cause full inhibition, you are denying dose dependent effects, which underminds receptor kinetics. My understanding of how negative feedback works is in discrepancy with your description of feedback.
 
Would it be more clear to say that the bodily systems do not reasonably respond in any reliable time frame?
 
Once full inhibition has been achieved, the system does not automatically respond in a dose dependent manner when the dose is tapered off. This is not because of receptor kinetics, but because of hypothalamic checking/signaling. Once shut down, it will not be regulating androgen levels as normal. It is shut down. It will remain shut down for an exponentially increasing period of time while any suppressive hormone is present. Vis a vis any dosage of a hormone sufficient to be suppressive.

Why? Because if androgen level sufficiency = yes then no testosterone will be produced as I summarized before. This is not controlled at the receptor level. It is controlled by the hypothalamus. This is why receptor kinetics do not play 100% of the role, why tapering can cause ASIH, and why it is said that you do not have the full picture in view if this is your endorsed method as a doctor.

To taper, a dose of testosterone less than 50mg per week as the highest dose would need to be used. Or it would continue to be suppressive. Continued suppression increases risk of ASIH. I do not think this is what you had in mind.

In the case of orals such as epistane, they cause even higher serum androgen levels than injectable testosterone. Moreover they come in doses too large to be tapered.
 
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aaat2007 said:
Negative feedback involves receptor kinetics. If you are implying that negative feedback does not, and therefore ANY exogenous hormone can cause full inhibition, you are denying dose dependent effects, which underminds receptor kinetics. My understanding of how negative feedback works is in discrepancy with your description of feedback.
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It sounds like you’re thinking about a person under “normal” conditions, whereas we need to be looking at this in the context of a steroid cycle. Sure, taking 1mg of test a week won’t shut you down, so yes dose etc. does matter. However, adding any source of exogenous hormone to the body will contribute to negative feedback. So if we ran a cycle for 8 or 12 weeks, we’re probably completely shut down (we’re bodybuilders, we took a big dose). So if you taper your dose down, you’re still contributing to negative feedback while your body is trying to recover. If you just stopped cold turkey, your body would then know you aren’t making testosterone, and it can start working to correct that. That’s also why taking a SERM is beneficial. SERMs can interrupt the negative feedback one would get from any estrogen you may have floating around in your bloodstream.
 
It would be laughable to think that a doctor would just assume a man shut down from exogenous testosterone would somehow begin to resume testicular function while on 250mg a week.

Ok so I took 900mg of Test C per week for 20 weeks, and I’m fully shut down. LH and FSH are 0.1 each. how do I taper off? How long? When should I expect LH and FSH to rise?
 
We have some pretty smart people come and go here, and a lot of them were wrong. There’s a guy, doctor of something, pharmacology? Got gyno with his “I’m a doctor and I know more than you” anti gyno protocol.

Happens all the time.
 
I’d sure love to be wrong, though. Who wouldn’t rather just take less for awhile then come off and all is well? Reality is not actually that simple. The human body is not that simple.
 
Old Witch said:
Would it be more clear to say that the bodily systems do not reasonably respond in any reliable time frame?
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Yes, thats exactly what I tried to say several times but still faced strong antagonist comments.

I personally use PCT. I just want to know the discrepancy between this community and the medical community. IMO, it is because we havr different goals. The physician doesnt mind taking extra time to re-establish homeostasis if it means avoiding additional types of medications. However, this is counterproductive for us interested in bodybuilding.

You seem the most understanding of what I am getting at so far, perhaps because you are more familiar with the science. The people who adamantly reject all of this are the people who dont understand the science (as far as i can tell from this thread), yet they claim their understanding of science is greater than that of clinicians.

Again, knowing cycle routines does NOT mean one knows science.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
It sounds like you’re thinking about a person under “normal” conditions, whereas we need to be looking at this in the context of a steroid cycle. Sure, taking 1mg of test a week won’t shut you down, so yes dose etc. does matter. However, adding any source of exogenous hormone to the body will contribute to negative feedback. So if we ran a cycle for 8 or 12 weeks, we’re probably completely shut down (we’re bodybuilders, we took a big dose). So if you taper your dose down, you’re still contributing to negative feedback while your body is trying to recover. If you just stopped cold turkey, your body would then know you aren’t making testosterone, and it can start working to correct that. That’s also why taking a SERM is beneficial. SERMs can interrupt the negative feedback one would get from any estrogen you may have floating around in your bloodstream.
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Yes this is a good answer and sheds light on another consideration.

Test may be admistered differently in the clinic than 40mg a day for 6 weeks, therefore the negative feedback is different.
 
aaat2007 said:
Update:

I talked to a THIRD doctor about this topic this morning. So far, all 3 have said cutting off exogenous test WITHOUT PCT with AI/SERM is fine (especially in the younrg and healthy population). They work in different clinics and trained at different places so its not like they all communicate.
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Its fine because eventually you will recover but it could take months of having low t and definitely loosing whatever you gained on cycle. You need to bounce back as fast as possible to keep gains. Also you could spend months not being able to get a hard on. Not fun.

Dr.s do not study steroids in med school. Just like lawyers don't study nutrition in law school.

Being a Dr. Does not make you a expert on everything and many things a Dr. Will practice are extremely outdated. But hey, do whatever you want
 
Smont said:
Its fine because eventually you will recover but it could take months of having low t and definitely loosing whatever you gained on cycle. You need to bounce back as fast as possible to keep gains. Also you could spend months not being able to get a hard on. Not fun.

Dr.s do not study steroids in med school. Just like lawyers don't study nutrition in law school.

Being a Dr. Does not make you a expert on everything and many things a Dr. Will practice are extremely outdated. But hey, do whatever you want
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I pretty much said exactly what you said in your first paragraph, several times. Idk why this thread is getting to so many people.

Regarding your comment on law school and medschool...idk where youre getting this information but my PT school shares a curriculum with a med school and we definitely talk about testosterone use so you are incorrect on that. Interestingly, we learn very little about nutrition, other than the biochemistry of vitamins.

Once again:
Knowing how to cycle designer prohormones does not mean one is scientifically versed.
 
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Tapering is not the only method of steroid withdrawal endorsed by the medical community, though. PCT as we use it is also endorsed by a great many doctors. Good ones, I might add. Very smart, smart ones.

Ok maybe not a great many, as not a great many doctors endorsed ANY method to this... they’ve never needed to form an opinion on it, likely.

But enough to matter, for sure.
 
I have a science question, so when you're suppressed/shut down and your jizzum is clear, does that mean you're basically infertile and can bust hella nutz in women without worry of pregnancy?
 
Indiglospaz said:
I have a science question, so when you're suppressed/shut down and your jizzum is clear, does that mean you're basically infertile and can bust hella nutz in women without worry of pregnancy?
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Idk but I still wouldn't risk it. Guys knock up chicks on cycle all the time.

And infertility doesn't save you from stds either
 
Indiglospaz said:
I have a science question, so when you're suppressed/shut down and your jizzum is clear, does that mean you're basically infertile and can bust hella nutz in women without worry of pregnancy?
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What Smont said.

....And assuming this wasn't a troll post .... "Jizzum" being clear or not, has nothing to do with fertility.
 
Renew1 said:
That's one of the things I like about this site .... You get all the info you can take. LOL.
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Got fixed 2013.
Went to a bbq today with a buddy and his wife for their 2 year olds birthday. He had to go to the ER last night for a panic attack. He just found out he got his wife pregnant. It’s kid #5. I told him “seriously?! It’s like a 35 minute procedure and you’ll never have another kid!!” Hell no to having more kids.
 
Matthersby said:
Got fixed 2013.
Went to a bbq today with a buddy and his wife for their 2 year olds birthday. He had to go to the ER last night for a panic attack. He just found out he got his wife pregnant. It’s kid #5. I told him “seriously?! It’s like a 35 minute procedure and you’ll never have another kid!!” Hell no to having more kids.
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5 is a lot. I can understand why he had the panic attack.
 
Matthersby said:
Got fixed 2013.
Went to a bbq today with a buddy and his wife for their 2 year olds birthday. He had to go to the ER last night for a panic attack. He just found out he got his wife pregnant. It’s kid #5. I told him “seriously?! It’s like a 35 minute procedure and you’ll never have another kid!!” Hell no to having more kids.
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His answer was: "I was already fixed a year ago." Then he got the panic attack... ;)
 
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