Answered Epistane without PCT (Doctor suggestion)

[aaat2007]

Everyone says we should take epi for 4-6 weeks at 30-50mg. For PCT, use Tamoxifen or Clomid.

However, I just had a discussion with a doctor who told me when they administer test, they eventually just wean it off the patients. They said the same idea should apply to using epistane.

Thoughts?

 

[Bigmatt57]

No, you will need a proper PCT with absolutely any steroid you do, no exceptions for anything, unless you want to lose your gains and feel like **** for 6 months.

 

[Renew1]

 

[Matthersby]

Doctors also think they can taper up your natural levels of test by administering test.

 

[Matthersby]

Everyone says we should take epi for 4-6 weeks at 30-50mg. For PCT, use Tamoxifen or Clomid.

However, I just had a discussion with a doctor who told me when they administer test, they eventually just wean it off the patients. They said the same idea should apply to using epistane.

Thoughts?

2 people you should never listen to regarding steroids:
The guy at the supplement store.
Your doctor.

 

[Old Witch]

2 people you should never listen to regarding steroids:
The guy at the supplement store.
Your doctor.

and they’re both equally dangerous. I’ve heard some stuff from doctors that made me go “Ruh-roh, Raggy...”

 

[aaat2007]

No, you will need a proper PCT with absolutely any steroid you do, no exceptions for anything, unless you want to lose your gains and feel like **** for 6 months.

2 people you should never listen to regarding steroids:
The guy at the supplement store.
Your doctor.

and they’re both equally dangerous. I’ve heard some stuff from doctors that made me go “Ruh-roh, Raggy...”

Physiologically and biochemically, it makes sense that your body is able reset on its own if you taper down test, allowing your receptors to slowly resensitize. Is the only bad thing about going this route the extra time it takes/loss of gains?

Another doctor said he would not prescribe clomid/tamox because they have been linked to cancer.
(interestingly, he pointed out to a case in 2006 where a bodybuilding product from india was banned [I assume he is referring to the PH ban] because it was linked to cancer. So he is at least somewhat familiar with supplements and bodybuilding)

 

[hairygrandpa]

Physiologically and biochemically, it makes sense that your body is able reset on its own if you taper down test, allowing your receptors to slowly resensitize. Is the only bad thing about going this route the extra time it takes/loss of gains?

Another doctor said he would not prescribe clomid/tamox because they have been linked to cancer.
(interestingly, he pointed out to a case in 2006 where a bodybuilding product from india was banned [I assume he is referring to the PH ban] because it was linked to cancer. So he is at least somewhat familiar with supplements and bodybuilding)

What said your doc to your idea to take epi for 4-6 weeks at 30-50mg?

 

[Jeremyk1]

allowing your receptors to slowly resensitize.

That’s not a thing. Androgen receptors don’t lose sensitivity like that.

The issue is that administering exogenous sources of hormones triggers the negative feedback loop so your body will decrease (or stop entirely, depending on dose) production. If you start tapering, you’ll just be taking lower amounts while the body has slowed or stopped it’s own testosterone manufacturing. Self-induced low-T doesn’t sound like the way to go, but maybe that’s just me.

 

[aaat2007]

That’s not a thing. Androgen receptors don’t lose sensitivity like that.

The issue is that administering exogenous sources of hormones triggers the negative feedback loop so your body will decrease (or stop entirely, depending on dose) production. If you start tapering, you’ll just be taking lower amounts while the body has slowed or stopped it’s own testosterone manufacturing. Self-induced low-T doesn’t sound like the way to go, but maybe that’s just me.

By re-sensitize, i mean that the degree of negative feedback is dependent on the amount of exogenous hormone you take. If you taper down, your body will have less of a negative feedback, therefore the natural production will be less inhibited.

Im not saying the cycle/pct routine is incorrect, I just want to understand the reasoning.

 

[Renew1]

By re-sensitize, i mean that the degree of negative feedback is dependent on the amount of exogenous hormone you take. If you taper down, your body will have less of a negative feedback, therefore the natural production will be less inhibited.

Im not saying the cycle/pct routine is incorrect, I just want to understand the reasoning.

The reason almost everyone PCTs the way we do (cold turkey, not tapering), is because when we stop all exogenous hormones there is NO negative feedback to hinder a HPTA restart. Tapering still provides negative feedback, as long as there are any hormones being introduced.

 

[aaat2007]

Update:

I talked to a THIRD doctor about this topic this morning. So far, all 3 have said cutting off exogenous test WITHOUT PCT with AI/SERM is fine (especially in the younrg and healthy population). They work in different clinics and trained at different places so its not like they all communicate.

 

[Jeremyk1]

Update:

I talked to a THIRD doctor about this topic this morning. So far, all 3 have said cutting off exogenous test WITHOUT PCT with AI/SERM is fine (especially in the younrg and healthy population). They work in different clinics and trained at different places so its not like they all communicate.

Doctors aren’t concerned with you maintaining your gains post-cycle. I’m not gonna forego PCT based on what you’ve said. Depending on the amount of time you’re on cycle, the testes will begin to atrophy. Even if you taper, they don’t bounce back quickly, unless your cycle was less than 2 weeks (maybe).

 

[Renew1]

Update:

I talked to a THIRD doctor about this topic this morning. So far, all 3 have said cutting off exogenous test WITHOUT PCT with AI/SERM is fine (especially in the younrg and healthy population). They work in different clinics and trained at different places so its not like they all communicate.

Cool. I won't waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

You do what those Drs recommend, and I'll go with the decades of real world experience that myself, and thousands of others has shown to prove true, and not true.

 

[aaat2007]

Doctors aren’t concerned with you maintaining your gains post-cycle. I’m not gonna forego PCT based on what you’ve said. Depending on the amount of time you’re on cycle, the testes will begin to atrophy. Even if you taper, they don’t bounce back quickly, unless your cycle was less than 2 weeks (maybe).

I see. That's basically the root of my question. Maybe you can get off of it without PCT for health reasons, you need to do it with PCT to keep up your gains.

 

[aaat2007]

Cool. I won't waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

You do what those Drs recommend, and I'll go with the decades of real world experience that myself, and thousands of others has shown to prove true, and not true.

One again, im not saying the bodybuilding community is wrong. I personally use PCT. im just saying:

1) doctors KNOW what they are talking about. 10 years of studying organ systems and pharmacology, followed by 5 years of residency is more "real world experience " than any of us will ever get. I just want to find out where the discrepancy is.

2) Maybe people taking gear and want to PCT or stop dont have to freak out so much.

 

[Renew1]

One again, im not saying the bodybuilding community is wrong. I personally use PCT. im just saying:

1) doctors KNOW what they are talking about. 10 years of studying organ systems and pharmacology, followed by 5 years of residency is more "real world experience " than any of us will ever get. I just want to find out where the discrepancy is.

2) Maybe people taking gear and want to PCT or stop dont have to freak out so much.

Mmm...but you're wrong brother.

No Dr's studying surpasses the fact that I've been been studying these SPECIFIC things myself for 3 decades ... And living real life experiments on these SPECIFIC things for 3 decades. And that's just me. We're not even talking about the hundreds or thousands that I inteteract with, and exchange information with, who have also been in this SPECIFIC field of study for years themselves (some longer than myself).

I'm not alone in this experience.....
I talk to a Dr. About a specific aspect, situation, drug, etc, regarding this part of my life, and he looks at me blankly, without a clue as to what I'm referring to.

 

[nostrum420]

Your doctor doesn't really care if you can't perform in the bedroom for months while you're "tapering" JS

 

[Old Witch]

One again, im not saying the bodybuilding community is wrong. I personally use PCT. im just saying:

1) doctors KNOW what they are talking about. 10 years of studying organ systems and pharmacology, followed by 5 years of residency is more "real world experience " than any of us will ever get. I just want to find out where the discrepancy is.

2) Maybe people taking gear and want to PCT or stop dont have to freak out so much.

Any amount is suppressive. Once you’re down, any amount keeps you down. Doesn’t matter if it’s 1mg or 100g. Tapering keeps you down longer, your HPTA cannot restart in the presence of any suppressive exogenous hormone. Period.

Tapering cannot make you recover more quickly, and can only make your recovery more complicated and time consuming. It could also completely ruin recovery, never reaching homeostasis ever again. Because you tapered, you stayed down too long, now the balls are shot.

It does not matter how much study any doctor has done, if they do not understand this concept then they do not understand the most basic fundamental concept of steroid use and should never ever be taken as an authority on the subject. Period.

 

[Old Witch]

What is logical and what is chemically true are often not the same.

Logic says tapering should work.

The actual chemical processes of the human body say it cannot work.

The actuality of the thing, is the fact. Logic, is not an inherently factual concept.

 

[aaat2007]

Mmm...but you're wrong brother.

No Dr's studying surpasses the fact that I've been been studying these SPECIFIC things myself for 3 decades ... And living real life experiments on these SPECIFIC things for 3 decades. And that's just me. We're not even talking about the hundreds or thousands that I inteteract with, and exchange information with, who have also been in this SPECIFIC field of study for years themselves (some longer than myself).

I'm not alone in this experience.....
I talk to a Dr. About a specific aspect, situation, drug, etc, regarding this part of my life, and he looks at me blankly, without a clue as to what I'm referring to.

Its likely that the doc

What is logical and what is chemically true are often not the same.

Logic says tapering should work.

The actual chemical processes of the human body say it cannot work.

The actuality of the thing, is the fact. Logic, is not an inherently factual concept.

Thanks for the response. Can you elaborate on why it does not work physiologically then? From my doctorate in Physical Therapy and masters in Biophysics, we are well educated on systems such as the endocrine system and tapering/decreasing the negative feedback makes sense. However, we dont get much training in pharmacology or chemistry so I might be missing something there. No one has been able to explain that yet, yet people seem extremely adamant on their views.

Once again, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to figure out a discrepancy between the medical and bodybuilding community.

 

[aaat2007]

Any amount is suppressive. Once you’re down, any amount keeps you down. Doesn’t matter if it’s 1mg or 100g. Tapering keeps you down longer, your HPTA cannot restart in the presence of any suppressive exogenous hormone. Period.

Tapering cannot make you recover more quickly, and can only make your recovery more complicated and time consuming. It could also completely ruin recovery, never reaching homeostasis ever again. Because you tapered, you stayed down too long, now the balls are shot.

It does not matter how much study any doctor has done, if they do not understand this concept then they do not understand the most basic fundamental concept of steroid use and should never ever be taken as an authority on the subject. Period.

This puzzle piece doesn't fit. For exogenous products, at any level, to completely shut down any pathway, that would contradict Michaelis-Menten kinetics (pharmacokinetic concept). There would be no such thing as dose-dependency and enzyme/receptor saturation.

Tapering down follows these concepts, therefore physiologically makes sense

 

[Renew1]

Its likely that the doc


Thanks for the response. Can you elaborate on why it does not work physiologically then? From my doctorate in Physical Therapy and masters in Biophysics, we are well educated on systems such as the endocrine system and tapering/decreasing the negative feedback makes sense. However, we dont get much training in pharmacology or chemistry so I might be missing something there. No one has been able to explain that yet, yet people seem extremely adamant on their views.

Once again, I'm not trying to argue, just trying to figure out a discrepancy between the medical and bodybuilding community.

Well, @Old Witch is generally more technical with his comments than I am, but...
You could in theory (and in reality sometimes) not use a SERM OR taper your dosages, and still regain at least some (and POSSIBLY all) of your natural hormone production. But in seeking harm reduction, as well as optimum physical development, we aren't looking for success "more often than not", or something similar. Everything we do (hopefully) is geared toward giving each and every one of us the HIGHEST chance of success hormonally, and ability to keep what we have gained physically.

Surely, you weren't taught that, if a person's own hormones have been shut down by the introduction of exogenous hormones (or hormone mimicking substances), that weaning them off of the external hormones would bring their own production back up to where it should be just as quickly and efficiently as removing all outside hormones at once?
And, time is a factor in restarting natural hormones, as well as maintaining the physical gains that have been accomplished.

I appreciate your civil response, but I'm really not sure how our two (community's) views could be so different on this.

 

[Old Witch]

In the simplest terms...

Testosterone works on a pulsatile system where if testosterone sufficiency = yes then no testosterone will be produced at that time. Once the normal rhythm is disrupted by an exogenous hormone, the system begins to skip pulses at an exponentially increasing rate.

And that is the important part.

Once it has been shut down, it will wait an extended period of time between any remaining very weak pulses. After so long (unknown variable) it can take an indefinite period of time for any production to resume with or without therapy.

When in that state or nearing it, any dosage of a suppressive hormone will continue to disrupt the process without a doubt.

This is steroid 101.

 

[aaat2007]

Well, @Old Witch is generally more technical with his comments than I am, but...
You could in theory (and in reality sometimes) not use a SERM OR taper your dosages, and still regain at least some (and POSSIBLY all) of your natural hormone production. But in seeking harm reduction, as well as optimum physical development, we aren't looking for success "more often than not", or something similar. Everything we do (hopefully) is geared toward giving each and every one of us the HIGHEST chance of success hormonally, and ability to keep what we have gained physically.

Surely, you weren't taught that, if a person's own hormones have been shut down by the introduction of exogenous hormones (or hormone mimicking substances), that weaning them off of the external hormones would bring their own production back up to where it should be just as quickly and efficiently as removing all outside hormones at once?
And, time is a factor in restarting natural hormones, as well as maintaining the physical gains that have been accomplished.

I appreciate your civil response, but I'm really not sure how our two (community's) views could be so different on this.

Thank you. I think I see the discrepancy. One community emphasizes re-establishing homeostasis/health. The other emphasizes doing it efficiently because gainz (the reason why we do it in the first place). It is therefore NOT the lack of knowledge of any party, but instead, different goals. With this in mind, I hope this makes it easier to digest the possibility of not cycling "correctly" and to give clinicians some credibility when they suggest a different route.

 

[Renew1]

Thank you. I think I see the discrepancy. One community emphasizes re-establishing homeostasis/health. The other emphasizes doing it efficiently because gainz (the reason why we do it in the first place). It is therefore NOT the lack of knowledge of any party, but instead, different goals. With this in mind, I hope this it makes it easier to digest the possibility of not cycling "correctly" and to give clinicians some credibility.

Umm... Not on this forum brother. Because, like you just said, we do things for a certain reason here, and the correct way (here) is geared toward that.
Like has been previously said by myself, and others here. We will almost always value the input and advice of regulars on here over that of Drs, as far as gear, cycling, and PCT goes.
I have great respect (in general) for most Drs, and what they do (in general). But in general, their knowledge and advice in these particular areas just don't carry over quite as easily as you might expect.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Thank you. I think I see the discrepancy. One community emphasizes re-establishing homeostasis/health. The other emphasizes doing it efficiently because gainz (the reason why we do it in the first place). It is therefore NOT the lack of knowledge of any party, but instead, different goals. With this in mind, I hope this makes it easier to digest the possibility of not cycling "correctly" and to give clinicians some credibility when they suggest a different route.

Not only "gainz". PCT also shortens the time you feel shitty and having ED. Docs don't care about the latter, your wife does.

 

[aaat2007]

In the simplest terms...

Testosterone works on a pulsatile system where if testosterone sufficiency = yes then no testosterone will be produced at that time. Once the normal rhythm is disrupted by an exogenous hormone, the system begins to skip pulses at an exponentially increasing rate.

And that is the important part.

Once it has been shut down, it will wait an extended period of time between any remaining very weak pulses. After so long (unknown variable) it can take an indefinite period of time for any production to resume with or without therapy.

When in that state or nearing it, any dosage of a suppressive hormone will continue to disrupt the process without a doubt.

This is steroid 101.

I don't think this is scientifically correct. Test is produced and then inhibited by several downstream products, if thats what you mean by pulsatile. The only other thing rhythmic/pulsatile about testosterone is related to the circadian rhythm, sleep cycles, etc. This involves different hormones, including HGH, but the receptor/enzyme kinetics are the same. MM kinetics still applies at the root of everything. It's the foundation for which drugs, hormones, proteins interact with each other. Without this principle, there is no such thing as dose-dependent effects. Hence, tappering does work, although not for bodybuilding purposes.

 

[Matthersby]

Any amount is suppressive. Once you’re down, any amount keeps you down. Doesn’t matter if it’s 1mg or 100g. Tapering keeps you down longer, your HPTA cannot restart in the presence of any suppressive exogenous hormone. Period.

Tapering cannot make you recover more quickly, and can only make your recovery more complicated and time consuming. It could also completely ruin recovery, never reaching homeostasis ever again. Because you tapered, you stayed down too long, now the balls are shot.

It does not matter how much study any doctor has done, if they do not understand this concept then they do not understand the most basic fundamental concept of steroid use and should never ever be taken as an authority on the subject. Period.

This ^ this ^ this ^ and more this.

I’m not impressed. Tony Huge went to law school and I’m pretty sure he’s retarted.
I’ve been in the ER with a fresh out of med school Doc, and experienced flight nurses will push that dumbass to the side while he/she fumbles around letting someone die. As if having rich parents and drinking your way through D minuses in organic chemistry and epidemiology is supposed to impress me.

I’ve had Doctors tell me all they do is google protocols and don’t know what the **** they’re doing.
You won’t catch me taking post cycle therapy advice from any doctor, not even endos. They are there to collect my copay and get the labs I ask them for. That’s it.

 

[Matthersby]

I’ve seen Clomid put someone in the 1100s WHILE restarting their HPTA. We should be eternally grateful these drugs exist.

 

[Matthersby]

I’ve seen Clomid put someone in the 1100s WHILE restarting their HPTA. We should be eternally grateful these drugs exist.

 

[aaat2007]

This ^ this ^ this ^ and more this.

I’m not impressed. Tony Huge went to law school and I’m pretty sure he’s retarted.
I’ve been in the ER with a fresh out of med school Doc, and experienced flight nurses will push that dumbass to the side while he/she fumbles around letting someone die. As if having rich parents and drinking your way through D minuses in organic chemistry and epidemiology is supposed to impress me.

I’ve had Doctors tell me all they do is google protocols and don’t know what the **** they’re doing.
You won’t catch me taking post cycle therapy advice from any doctor, not even endos. They are there to collect my copay and get the labs I ask them for. That’s it.

Sure, just going through medical school doesn't mean you're impressive or intelligent. That was not my argument and I can attest to have interacted with some low IQ medical professionals. And sure, the BB community may have more experience with cycle regimens (for the purposes of bodybuilding), but 95% of the time, a person that learns "science" from forums, wikipedia, and personally consuming supplements cannot be compared to an official professional medical education. What bugs me at this point of the discussion is when these people think they indeed know more about the "science." Sure, a doctor probably has never heard of epistane, yet alone know how to dose it, BUT:

Having experience with cycling regimens =/= Versed in science

 

[Renew1]

Sure, just going through medical school doesn't mean you're impressive or intelligent. That was not my argument and I can attest to have interacted with some low IQ medical professionals. And sure, the BB community may have more experience with cycle regimens (for the purposes of bodybuilding), but 95% of the time, a person that learns "science" from forums, wikipedia, and personally consuming supplements cannot be compared to an official professional medical education. What bugs me at this point of the discussion is when these people think they indeed know more about the "science." Sure, a doctor probably has never heard of epistane, yet alone know how to dose it, BUT:

Having experience with cycling regimens =/= Versed in science

Medical patients seeking treatment from a Dr. would be foolish to let me walk into the office and start giving them advice.
And I would be just as foolish to take advice from Drs. on cycling, gear, and PCT.
This is not just a theoretical reality. ... It has shown itself to be true in real life situations.
If you want to see it for yourself, stick around, and observe.

 

[aaat2007]

Medical patients seeking treatment from a Dr. would be foolish to let me walk into the office and start giving them advice.
And I would be just as foolish to take advice from Drs. on cycling, gear, and PCT.
This is not just a theoretical reality. ... It has shown itself to be true in real life situations.
If you want to see it for yourself, stick around, and observe.

The difference is, your prescription may kill someone whereas the physicians PCT suggestion will cost you extra time (but it could still get you back to baseline)

 

[Renew1]

The difference is, your prescription may kill someone whereas the physicians PCT suggestion will cost you extra time (but it could still get you back to baseline)

So, you're saying that Drs. prescriptions carry no risk?
You are rapidly approaching the full of s**t category brother.

 

[aaat2007]

So, you're saying that Drs. prescriptions carry no risk?
You are rapidly approaching the full of s**t category brother.

Where in that ONE sentence did I say that?

 

[Renew1]

Where in that ONE sentence did I say that?

Ok, I did assume that was what you meant, based upon what you said.
The facts are... All "prescriptions" or recommendations carry risks. Whether they are from a Dr., or merely an opinion from someone like myself.
I've seen stupid, higher risk than necessary recommendations by guys on here, and by Drs. And over-all, I will go with the recommendations of the guys on here, over Drs, for these particular subjects.
And I prove that by actually doing that.
If you prefer the advice of Drs.... Cool. Go get their advice. You won't find it here.

 

[Matthersby]

Sure, just going through medical school doesn't mean you're impressive or intelligent. That was not my argument and I can attest to have interacted with some low IQ medical professionals. And sure, the BB community may have more experience with cycle regimens (for the purposes of bodybuilding), but 95% of the time, a person that learns "science" from forums, wikipedia, and personally consuming supplements cannot be compared to an official professional medical education. What bugs me at this point of the discussion is when these people think they indeed know more about the "science." Sure, a doctor probably has never heard of epistane, yet alone know how to dose it, BUT:

Having experience with cycling regimens =/= Versed in science

Certainly. But as some of our very own medical professionals here on AM have observed: Anabolic steroid use (for the purpose of fitness, not disease) is extremely underevaluated and the most knowledgeable science and medical professionals around here will tell you anecdotal evidence is the primary source for data and protocols.
That said, a doctor WILL NEVER have 30 different experiences shared collectively and observed and analyzed by thousands and then passed on, challenged or verified as accurate, over and over and over again. There’re just going to have the one or two double blind studies and the findings.
Bro Science > Medical Science when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.

 

[aaat2007]

Certainly. But as some of our very own medical professionals here on AM have observed: Anabolic steroid use (for the purpose of fitness, not disease) is extremely underevaluated and the most knowledgeable science and medical professionals around here will tell you anecdotal evidence is the primary source for data and protocols.
That said, a doctor WILL NEVER have 30 different experiences shared collectively and observed and analyzed by thousands and then passed on, challenged or verified as accurate, over and over and over again. There’re just going to have the one or two double blind studies and the findings.
Bro Science > Medical Science when it comes to performance enhancing drugs.

In terms of using it, probably. In terms of understanding the physiology/molecular mechanisms behind it, no (as supported by this thread). Still yet to see a scientifically coherent explanation on this topic, yet a lot of people here are claiming to be scientific.

 

[Matthersby]

In terms of using it, probably. In terms of understanding the physiology/molecular mechanisms behind it, no (as supported by this thread). Still yet to see a scientifically coherent explanation on this topic, yet a lot of people here are claiming to be scientific.

There very likely won’t be a conclusive scientific explanation on it. That’s my only point. We simply have decades of experience and that’s what we tend to use.

 

[Indiglospaz]

Can anyone explain how a serm kickstarts your nuts into producing again?
Selective estrogen receptor modulator, so like a sarm but for estrogen? So it makes you produce more estrogen? I actually had my doctor ask me how a serm gets you back to baseline. I didn't have an answer, just that I knew I had to use it for PCT

 

[Bigmatt57]

Any amount is suppressive. Once you’re down, any amount keeps you down. Doesn’t matter if it’s 1mg or 100g. Tapering keeps you down longer, your HPTA cannot restart in the presence of any suppressive exogenous hormone. Period.

Tapering cannot make you recover more quickly, and can only make your recovery more complicated and time consuming. It could also completely ruin recovery, never reaching homeostasis ever again. Because you tapered, you stayed down too long, now the balls are shot.

It does not matter how much study any doctor has done, if they do not understand this concept then they do not understand the most basic fundamental concept of steroid use and should never ever be taken as an authority on the subject. Period.

I have to show this to a few of my friends, they think you run HCG in PCT, and that’s what they have been doing. I keep telling them that your body can not start producing test again if you have a suppressive drug in your body. Who am I kidding even if I show this to them they still will say I’m the wrong one smh.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

i didnt read the last 10 or so posts because this is dragging on and on... but my wife is an RN.. during school i would argue that medicine is at minimum 10 yrs behind the science on this subject and furthermore a lot of the science comes from what we establish anecdotally.. now many yrs later she sees that i was right and agrees with me 100%.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

I have to show this to a few of my friends, they think you run HCG in PCT, and that’s what they have been doing. I keep telling them that your body can not start producing test again if you have a suppressive drug in your body. Who am I kidding even if I show this to them they still will say I’m the wrong one smh.

how is HCG suppresive?

 

[Old Witch]

The difference is, your prescription may kill someone whereas the physicians PCT suggestion will cost you extra time (but it could still get you back to baseline)

No, it could cost you your lifetime of test production. Tapering can put you on trt for life. Proper pct is cold turkey, period. End of story.

You want to recover, not end up on HRT.

Do not listen to this quack advice.

 

[Old Witch]

I have to show this to a few of my friends, they think you run HCG in PCT, and that’s what they have been doing. I keep telling them that your body can not start producing test again if you have a suppressive drug in your body. Who am I kidding even if I show this to them they still will say I’m the wrong one smh.

HCG mimics LH. It’s not necessarily suppressive to LH. It won’t restart Lh production either but it will sub in for it while the clomid takes its time working.

That being said, most guys who use Hcg for pct do it wrong, and use it too often.

Just one dose right at the start of pct is all you need.

 

[Old Witch]

I’m going to say this and I am deadly serious:

Stopping cold turkey and doing nothing for pct is going to be safer and more effective than tapering by far.

Both of those methods have been endorsed by doctors, so take your pick.

Stopping cold turkey and using clomid and nolvadex for pct is the safest and most effective by far. This method is endorsed by many doctors, as well as the bodybuilding community by and large.

 

[Renew1]

I’m going to say this and I am deadly serious:

Stopping cold turkey and doing nothing for pct is going to be safer and more effective than tapering by far.

Both of those methods have been endorsed by doctors, so take your pick.

Stopping cold turkey and using clomid and nolvadex for pct is the safest and most effective by far. This method is endorsed by many doctors, as well as the bodybuilding community by and large.

^^^ YEP ^^^

 

[Old Witch]

If a guy really has a hardon for tapering something, taper off the AI.

Back in the heyday of PHs we used to just crash our estrogen with a big dose and then taper off the AI for pct. Dumb idea. It did work though.

Instead, just continue the AI in pct at and then taper it off clean.

A lot of guys stop the AI with the steroids. I don’t. I taper it like I’m saying here.

 

[hairygrandpa]

If a guy really has a hardon for tapering something, taper off the AI.

Back in the heyday of PHs we used to just crash our estrogen with a big dose and then taper off the AI for pct. Dumb idea. It did work though.

Instead, just continue the AI in pct at and then taper it off clean.

A lot of guys stop the AI with the steroids. I don’t. I taper it like I’m saying here.

I nowadays try to avoid AI's and use proviron. Somehow proviron is more forgiving and does not end in a guessing game if e2 is high -or low.