Epistane and ...... gyno???

[ChuckBooty]

I did a Testanate-50 pulse (four weeks) immediately followed by a four-week pulse of Epistane. During my last couple of days I got ichy nips along with a couple of bumps on the nips. The pulse was over anyways and some nolvadex knocked the problem right out.

I chalked this up to the T-50 (nasty product in hindsite...won't try it again) causing delayed gyno and assumed it was actually the Epistane that held it off for this long.

Now I've read several posters on here complaining about the same thing. Some pulsing epistane and some running the Epi ED.

WTF? How can this happen. I noticed that I did not run into any problem until I was doing 40mgs per day.

Any ideas?

 

[LakeMountD]

I've yet to see anyone talking about this, although since it acts like a SERM it can actually cause a slight rise in estrogen levels. However, since it does block estrogen receptors in breast tissue the slight rise rarely results in gyno and in this case most of the time continues to prevent it from occurring and can reverse it in some people.

Again most people are actually getting their gyno reduced.

 

[DR.D]

Yeah, and epitiostanol has a long acting anti-e effect even weeks after you stop using it, so I don't think pulsing has much to do with it either, just might need a higher dose. I've seen some guys do 20-30mg daily with marginal improvement and then switch to 40 and it was like night and day as far as gyno reduction, so the dose response curve may be somewhat steep for some. Plus, pulsing is more designed for training. If you're battling gyno specifically, hit it daily and use an AI also because like Lake stated, E2 levels may actually elevate on a SERM like Epi.

CB, that T-50 is some funky looking stuff man! I bet that's the real culprit like you said, but it sounds like your Nolva conclusion to the cycle worked well.

 

[ChuckBooty]

CB, that T-50 is some funky looking stuff man! I bet that's the real culprit like you said, but it sounds like your Nolva conclusion to the cycle worked well.

I agree...like I said I won't be using that crap again. That's the whole reason that I never mentioned the gyno problem. But then I read threads like these:

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Could it be that pulsing this compound will still give the slight increase in estrogen but prevent blocking the estrogen receptors?

 

[Movin_weight]

when i used it i had a reduction in gyno at 20mg but as soon as i bumped up to 40mg it returned to where it had been b4 the cycle... I think a lower dose is neccessary for the gyno reduction IMO... going to high and the androgens overcomes the anti E

 

[DR.D]

I agree...like I said I won't be using that crap again. That's the whole reason that I never mentioned the gyno problem. But then I read threads like these:

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Could it be that pulsing this compound will still give the slight increase in estrogen but prevent blocking the estrogen receptors?

Oh thanks for the heads-up, I was unaware of those cases! I'll check then out too Chuck.

I really don't think pulsing poses any negative issues with Epi though, the studies all point to a "protracted anti-e effect" which means that the anti-e benefit lasted long after you stop. If you're only stopping for a day or two at a time, like pulsing, that's well within the realm of 'protracted' benefits I'm sure. I have even seen a study where epitiostanol was pulsed once a week only at a very low dose and still worked well, so something else is going on here and I'm not quite sure what yet.

 

[RoadBlocK]

Hey DrD.

How about this, pardon the non technical terms, epi at low doses goes to work on gyno without disrupting the htpa(sp) and normal hormonal functions, at moderate to higher dosages epi works just like everything else, disturbing the balance, causing supression, causing the feedback loop, etc.

Seems to me some folks are somehow forgetting what epi IS, and how things of its nature should be run properly. Its so pleasant and mild and safe (supposidly) that I think some people are not doing all that they are supposed to do and taking all precations. Ive seen threads talking about using epi as part of pct, which I dont agree with.

 

[DR.D]

when i used it i had a reduction in gyno at 20mg but as soon as i bumped up to 40mg it returned to where it had been b4 the cycle... I think a lower dose is neccessary for the gyno reduction IMO... going to high and the androgens overcomes the anti E

Now that is interesting too! What other confounding factors were involved?

 

[DR.D]

Hey DrD.

How about this, pardon the non technical terms, epi at low doses goes to work on gyno without disrupting the htpa(sp) and normal hormonal functions, at moderate to higher dosages epi works just like everything else, disturbing the balance, causing supression, causing the feedback loop, etc.

Seems to me some folks are somehow forgetting what epi IS, and how things of its nature should be run properly. Its so pleasant and mild and safe (supposidly) that I think some people are not doing all that they are supposed to do and taking all precations. Ive seen threads talking about using epi as part of post cycle therapy, which I dont agree with.

Yes, well it's a pretty versatile and fool-proof anti-e, but you're right that the effects are not completely linear and the specifics are dose dependent and even biphasic over time so there can be peaks and valleys in results, even at the same dose. For example, 20mg may not attenuate gyno at all for some people initially but work great after a few weeks. Why? Because 20mg may also put test production into high gear the first week elevating estrogen only to see it drop off in 2 or 3 weeks with a parallel reduction in estrogen, with or without a slight lag. Gyno can respond with a reduction from the direct binding of Epi to ERb sites, the benefits of elevated test levels, or the reduction in estrogen once test starts to drop off. It can all get very complicated to interpret anomalous results, but in general, the anti-e effects are consistent and long standing.

When treating serious gyno, it is probably best to take a dose between 20-40 daily for not less than 6wks. Also, stack with an AI for maximum effect. Remember to avoid common estrogens and things that can contribute to breast growth. Stuff like GH, IGF, even caffeine.

 

[ChuckBooty]

Now that is interesting too! What other confounding factors were involved?

All of the cases did seem to happen at the higher dosages. I was fine at 30mgs but when I upped my dosage to 40mgs I got the problem.

I was pulsing 40mgs for the last two weeks of my pulse. My pulse was Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri. Doing some quick math, my total doses that last two weeks was 320mgs (40mgs * 4 days per week). Compare that to 280mgs, which would be my total dosage if I ran a standard 20mgs per day, every day.

So really there was no point in pulsing here...I was still above the recommended dosages. If MW's theory is true than THAT'S the reason that I began to grow my juggs.

 

[HARDHITTER00]

Epistane/Puffy nips

Age: 25
Ht: 5'11''
Wt:220
BF: 14%

I have been lifting off and on since I was 16 but just these past few yrs I have really been committed to my regimine. Never experience with sups of this strength before but started getting educated and figured I'd give it a shot. I just finished a bulk cycle and put on 30lbs so I have a little more around the waist then desired compared to the rest of my body which is pretty cut up. So to the review of Epi. I have a few days left on my Epi cycle and I too have noticed a diff in my nips. They seem to be more puffy but still shrink when cold, and are not sensitive or hurt. I felt under my right nip and noticed a small pea sized lump. Never noticed this before and it hasn't seemed to have enlarged. Hoping it's just from puberty, last weight gain, or maybe my gland. I also experienced the three day testicular shrinkage into the cycle but recovered pretty well after adding Tribulus for a few days. Overall I felt great while on and satisfied with my gains. Anxious to see what post cycle therapy brings.

This is my Epi pulse with w/o days being Mon, Wed, Fri:

Week 1:
Epi 20/30/40

Week 2-Week 5:
Epi 40/40/40

Week 6:
Epi 30/20/10

Support Supps ON/OFF Cycle:
CoQ10 100mg/day
Multivitamin
Flaxseed
Glutamine

post cycle therapy Looks like this:
Week 7-12:
Activate @ 4/day ED
Rebound Reloaded @ 3/day
X-lean @ 2/day
AI Cycle Support @ 2/day

 

[ChuckBooty]

Age: 25
Ht: 5'11''
Wt:220
BF: 14%

I have been lifting off and on since I was 16 but just these past few yrs I have really been committed to my regimine. Never experience with sups of this strength before but started getting educated and figured I'd give it a shot. I just finished a bulk cycle and put on 30lbs so I have a little more around the waist then desired compared to the rest of my body which is pretty cut up. So to the review of Epi. I have a few days left on my Epi cycle and I too have noticed a diff in my nips. They seem to be more puffy, but are not sensitive or hurt. I felt under my right nip and noticed a small pea sized lump. Never noticed this before and it hasn't seemed to have enlarged. Hoping it's just from this last weight gain or puberty. I also experienced the three day testicular shrinkage into the cycle but recovered pretty well after adding Tribulus for a few days. Overall I felt great while on and satisfied with my gains. Anxious to see what post cycle therapy brings.

This is my Epi pulse with w/o days being Mon, Wed, Fri:

Week 1:
Epi 20/30/40

Week 2-Week 5:
Epi 40/40/40

Week 6:
Epi 30/20/10

Support Supps ON/OFF Cycle:
CoQ10 100mg/day
Multivitamin
Flaxseed
Glutamine

post cycle therapy Looks like this:
Week 7-12:
Activate @ 4/day ED
Rebound Reloaded @ 3/day
X-lean @ 2/day
AI Cycle Support @ 2/day

Man...you experienced shrinkage and symptoms of gyno. Play it safe and order your self some Tamoxifen.

 

[DR.D]

... PCT Looks like this:
Week 7-12:
Activate @ 4/day ED
Rebound Reloaded @ 3/day
X-lean @ 2/day
AI Cycle Support @ 2/day

That's a good looking pct normally, but if things don't clear up with the nips or if they get worse, drop everything but the RR.

 

[HARDHITTER00]

I really appreciate everyone's timely responses. I will continue throughout my PCT and keep everyone posted on my situation/results. Hopefully this is just a bump in the road.