Double Epistane Log - Should be interesting

[Aaron330]

Good call. I'm gonna stop DAA for a few days and continue with just Clomid/Nolva and Lean Xtreme, and I'll let you guys know how I feel. It has absolutely ruined my ability to work out AND eat, which is really concerning to me because I really do not want to lose these gains. If I can narrow down what is making me sick in this log, hopefully it can be helpful to someone else

 

[Lukef2000]

Good call. I'm gonna stop DAA for a few days and continue with just Clomid/Nolva and Lean Xtreme, and I'll let you guys know how I feel. It has absolutely ruined my ability to work out AND eat, which is really concerning to me because I really do not want to lose these gains. If I can narrow down what is making me sick in this log, hopefully it can be helpful to someone else

Have you tried playing around with dose timing? I've heard of a few people having issues like stomach discomfort, try having your supps with food before bed. I haven't read that thing in the home page yet but I've seen numerous studies about the effectiveness of DAA. I'm more inclined to believe a peer reviewed study over and article someone wrote.

 

[Aaron330]

Have you tried playing around with dose timing? I've heard of a few people having issues like stomach discomfort, try having your supps with food before bed. I haven't read that thing in the home page yet but I've seen numerous studies about the effectiveness of DAA. I'm more inclined to believe a peer reviewed study over and article someone wrote.

Well they claim to have definitive proof through case studies they list (which really discredits them imo), but either way I am just going to forego it for the rest of my PCT. I've had te worst abdominal cramps and satanic diarrhea that there's no way I'm ever taking that stuff again. I had been taking two pills in the morning with food and two before bed with food, so that wasn't the issue. Everyone responds differently I guess. But I can't afford to go another day without eating or working out. I don't wanna lose everything I've worked so hard for.

 

[Lukef2000]

Well they claim to have definitive proof through case studies they list (which really discredits them imo), but either way I am just going to forego it for the rest of my PCT. I've had te worst abdominal cramps and satanic diarrhea that there's no way I'm ever taking that stuff again. I had been taking two pills in the morning with food and two before bed with food, so that wasn't the issue. Everyone responds differently I guess. But I can't afford to go another day without eating or working out. I don't wanna lose everything I've worked so hard for.

I might have to give it a read while I'm on night shift tonight. Your very much on the money man I think it's just something that doesn't agree with you. Drop it and see how you go!

 

[Aaron330]

I might have to give it a read while I'm on night shift tonight. Your very much on the money man I think it's just something that doesn't agree with you. Drop it and see how you go!

Thanks bro. I don't want to sound redundant, but thank you for sticking around my log and all the advice you've given. It has gone a long way towards helping this cycle be as successful as it was.

That being said, my fear has come upon me...I weighed this morning and I am 199 right now :-( That's like a 5-6 lb drop from where I started my PCT. That's what two days of barely being able to eat and not work out will do to you in PCT I guess. I'm hoping to get over this stomach thing today and I'm going to kick my training into overdrive for the next 3 weeks to get back as much of those gains as I can.

 

[doggy_dog]

That's a good chunk of weight you dropped.

But I would think that's primarily water weight. (especially taking into consideration your recent stomach issues)
Your weight may fluctuate a bit over the next few weeks.
Once you feel better, I'd give it another couple of days and see what's happening with your weight at that point.

You've only been off Epi for a few days so I wouldn't get too worried just yet.

 

[Lukef2000]

Thanks bro. I don't want to sound redundant, but thank you for sticking around my log and all the advice you've given. It has gone a long way towards helping this cycle be as successful as it was.

That being said, my fear has come upon me...I weighed this morning and I am 199 right now :-( That's like a 5-6 lb drop from where I started my PCT. That's what two days of barely being able to eat and not work out will do to you in PCT I guess. I'm hoping to get over this stomach thing today and I'm going to kick my training into overdrive for the next 3 weeks to get back as much of those gains as I can.

It's all good bro, here to help.

That's a good chunk of weight you dropped.

But I would think that's primarily water weight. (especially taking into consideration your recent stomach issues)
Your weight may fluctuate a bit over the next few weeks.
Once you feel better, I'd give it another couple of days and see what's happening with your weight at that point.

You've only been off Epi for a few days so I wouldn't get too worried just yet.

^^ this is exactly what I was thinking, you always lose a bit coming off cycle as your muscles aren't super saturated with glycogen anymore, couple that with being a bit sick which also makes you drop water weight from lack of eating. I wouldn't stress dude!

 

[Bigdaz123]

Yea Dw bout it Aaron it's all a mental thing.... Even though you had dry gains you still added water in your muscles... One thing I noticed since I've lost 2 pounds so far is that when your on epistane you tend to look really hard as you gain... But as soon as you get into pct that rock hardness goes out the window... So started assuming I lost muscle... Not the case.... Losing muscle is very slow even if you're starved of protein... Another bonus you would like to hear is the theory of muscle memory... Whatever muscle you've lost that is not out of your genetic potential you will regain as fast as someone gains fat... Judging by your pics you are not near your potential... So those 6 pounds you lost even if it is muscle will comeback very fast once your hormones get back to normal.... So don't stress champ.. Check it out

 

[Aaron330]

Yea Dw bout it Aaron it's all a mental thing.... Even though you had dry gains you still added water in your muscles... One thing I noticed since I've lost 2 pounds so far is that when your on epistane you tend to look really hard as you gain... But as soon as you get into pct that rock hardness goes out the window... So started assuming I lost muscle... Not the case.... Losing muscle is very slow even if you're starved of protein... Another bonus you would like to hear is the theory of muscle memory... Whatever muscle you've lost that is not out of your genetic potential you will regain as fast as someone gains fat... Judging by your pics you are not near your potential... So those 6 pounds you lost even if it is muscle will comeback very fast once your hormones get back to normal.... So don't stress champ.. Check it out

Dude, that's what I needed to hear. I've been stressing out like crazy the past 4 days not being able to eat much or work out. But what you said makes a lot of sense, and I'm not gonna worry about what the scale says. I have noticed the thickness and hardness of my muscles has diminished a bit. But I'm sure I'll get a good portion of those lbs back once I can start lifting hard and heavy and eating again. I've pretty much narrowed down that it was the DAA which F'd me up so bad. I have a mild IBS-like condition that I think the acid set off pretty bad, so that doesn't mean it would have this effect on everyone. But I have heard a few guys say that DAA upsets their stomach and keeps them in the bathroom all day, so its not uncommon. I'll probably recommend some other kind of natural test booster to people from now on. Feeling a little better today. Gonna try and eat 4,000 calories, do some back squats and hit arms hard.

 

[Aaron330]

Worked out pretty hard today which felt good, and I'm able to eat 3k calories yesterday which still isn't my goal but much better than 1500. Still can't sleep to save my life, and I need to order some of that ZMA stuff.

I have seen a pretty noticable drop off in strength the past two days. Yesterday I did an 8x3 of back squat with 300#, and it felt like 350#. It destroyed me and I'm crazy sore today, whereas two weeks ago I was throwing 330# around with ease and not getting sore. So that sucks. Today my bench felt quite a bit weaker as well. But I'm not sure how much of that is because I've been sick and low on food/sleep for 5 days now. The good thing is I weighed 200lb this morning, so hopefully I'm gaining some of that weight back. Doing everything I can right now to keep this weight on. Every time I eat I keep getting acid reflux and tasting my food again because of the poor digestion from the stomach issue that DAA caused. But its getting better. Joints are also hurting pretty bad. This PCT sucks dick right now lol

 

[Aaron330]

Double post.

 

[Bigdaz123]

Yea keep it up... Strength will come and go... I was 90kg and now I'm 88kg I... Before cycle I cut down from 86 to 83 ... But I lost alot of fat... Then with cycle I went from 83 to 90 ... So I'm pretty happy with it... Quick question guys.... If I'm on nolvadex and say my testosterone gets back to normall say 2nd week what happens in the remainder 2 weeks... Does that mean inhale bonus testosterone?

 

[Bigdaz123]

I have*

 

[Lukef2000]

Yea keep it up... Strength will come and go... I was 90kg and now I'm 88kg I... Before cycle I cut down from 86 to 83 ... But I lost alot of fat... Then with cycle I went from 83 to 90 ... So I'm pretty happy with it... Quick question guys.... If I'm on nolvadex and say my testosterone gets back to normall say 2nd week what happens in the remainder 2 weeks... Does that mean inhale bonus testosterone?

How will you know your testosterone is back up?

 

[Bigdaz123]

How will you know your testosterone is back up?

good question lol

 

[Lukef2000]

good question lol

The only way to really know is via bloodwork, and im telling you it won't be back up in two weeks.

 

[doggy_dog]

Hey Aaron, how's PCT going?

 

[Aaron330]

Hey Aaron, how's PCT going?

Going pretty well. I started Erase today as this was the beginning of my 3rd week. I can't wait to be done taking these disgusting SERMs. But they are doing their job as I have no PCT sides whatsoever so far. Still weighing 198 every morning, so at least I haven't lost anymore weight. Just really bummed out overall that I lost so much gains from getting crazy sick in the first week of PCT. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do another cycle sometime in late January.

 

[ishpart]

Any update with pct? Gains or losses in strength/ size / cut

 

[Aaron330]

Any update with pct? Gains or losses in strength/ size / cut

I was actually thinking of posting today. Glad you asked!

I am pretty much done with PCT, other than still taking Erase for another week. I am weighing 197 now, which is about 7lbs down from where I was. Getting sick for those 3 weeks at the end of my cycle/first two weeks of PCT really screwed me over. I wasn't able to eat at all or workout, so I lost a ton of gains. I still am 4 solid pounds heavier than I was pre-cycle which is better than nothing. The best news though is that I kept most of my strength gains.

My Back Squat was 330 at the beginning, I maxed out at 375 during cycle, and then I maxed out again on Monday and I hit 365, but it was all I had. So I lost about 10 of those lbs but still added 35lbs to my back squat in 6 weeks which is phenomenal.

My bench is the same story. I hit 320 for 1 and 310 for 2 on cycle. I maxed out last week and was able to get 300 for 1 rep, but barely. But my 1RM still went up 25lbs so I'm stoked on that.

I've decided I'm going to do another cycle in January, and hopefully not get sick this time so I can keep more of my gains lol. All in all the cycle was an amazing experience and I can't wait to do it again.

 

[Aaron330]

Alright I need some advice, see if I can get a consensus here.

I'm 99% certain I'm having symptoms of post cycle gyno. I didn't think that would be possible because I took every precaution, taking clomid, nolva and erase, but I have a lump directly under my nipple that feels different than the muscle tissue, and it slightly hurts to touch it sometimes. Also my nipple area looks a little more puffed than usual, and so I'm getting worried. I've read up a little bit online about using nolva (tamoxifen) to treat it. I read that within 36 months the tissue can be treated and reduced with medication. In your experience, does this work and how should I go about it? Would I go like 40/20/20/20 and then erase 0/0/3/2/2/1 again? I'm also sort of wondering if my Erase maybe isn't any good because it should have inhibited any estrogen from binding and getting post cycle gyno, but obviously it didn't...any advice you can give is much appreciated.

And merry christmas to all! lol

 

[Lukef2000]

Alright I need some advice, see if I can get a consensus here.

I'm 99% certain I'm having symptoms of post cycle gyno. I didn't think that would be possible because I took every precaution, taking clomid, nolva and erase, but I have a lump directly under my nipple that feels different than the muscle tissue, and it slightly hurts to touch it sometimes. Also my nipple area looks a little more puffed than usual, and so I'm getting worried. I've read up a little bit online about using nolva (tamoxifen) to treat it. I read that within 36 months the tissue can be treated and reduced with medication. In your experience, does this work and how should I go about it? Would I go like 40/20/20/20 and then erase 0/0/3/2/2/1 again? I'm also sort of wondering if my Erase maybe isn't any good because it should have inhibited any estrogen from binding and getting post cycle gyno, but obviously it didn't...any advice you can give is much appreciated.

And merry christmas to all! lol

If you got rebound gyno there is a couple of ways you can attack it 1) nolva solo 2) Nolva and raloxifene combined 3) letrozole 4) last but not least surgery. I would try it in that order as letrozole, while it works its not a very pleasant experience. Nolva and raloxifene combo is pretty solid from what I've read.

 

[Aaron330]

If you got rebound gyno there is a couple of ways you can attack it 1) nolva solo 2) Nolva and raloxifene combined 3) letrozole 4) last but not least surgery. I would try it in that order as letrozole, while it works its not a very pleasant experience. Nolva and raloxifene combo is pretty solid from what I've read.

Good advice man. I think I will order some raloxifene and take it with my remaining nolva. What dosage would you recommend? And would I also need to taper erase at the end?

 

[Lukef2000]

Good advice man. I think I will order some raloxifene and take it with my remaining nolva. What dosage would you recommend? And would I also need to taper erase at the end?

I'd start somewhere around 100mg daily and the nolva at 40mg daily. I would just keep the erase at 3 caps if you want to run it but is swap it for exemstane.

 

[Aaron330]

I'd start somewhere around 100mg daily and the nolva at 40mg daily. I would just keep the erase at 3 caps if you want to run it but is swap it for exemstane.

Ok, I'll just go order some exemstane right now then. It is a better AI than erase? And do you taper it the same way you taper erase?

Nolva: 40/20/20/20 Raloxifene: 100/50/50/25 Exemstane: 0/0/3/2/2/1

Also, can you private message me a good site to get the ralo? The site I use for Clomid/nolva doesn't seem to have it

 

[Lukef2000]

Ok, I'll just go order some exemstane right now then. It is a better AI than erase? And do you taper it the same way you taper erase?

Nolva: 40/20/20/20
Raloxifene: 100/50/50/25
Exemstane: 0/0/3/2/2/1

Yes/no?

I wouldn't put a time frame on it, I would just run it until you either run out or notice the lumps gone. Exem is the best AI IMO, it's a very powerful suicidal AI. Start it at 12.5mg ED and adjust as needed.

 

[Lukef2000]

Letrozole is another option although its by very pleasant. Taper your dose from .5 up to 2.5mg, keep it there until the lump subsides then taper your dose down to .5 and then discontinue. I always recommend making the switch to a suicidal AI like exem before discontinuing just to negate possible rebound gyno.

 

[Aaron330]

Letrozole is another option although its by very pleasant. Taper your dose from .5 up to 2.5mg, keep it there until the lump subsides then taper your dose down to .5 and then discontinue. I always recommend making the switch to a suicidal AI like exem before discontinuing just to negate possible rebound gyno.

Ok good. Luckily I've caught it early so I have a long time to treat it orally, so if the nolva/ralo doesn't work I can switch to letro. Thanks again for the help bro.

Can you pm me on where to find ralo?

 

[Lukef2000]

Ok good. Luckily I've caught it early so I have a long time to treat it orally, so if the nolva/ralo doesn't work I can switch to letro. Thanks again for the help bro.

Can you pm me on where to find ralo?

Pm me your email bro, not allowed to source on here.

 

[Aaron330]

Pm me your email bro, not allowed to source on here.

Ok. It says your inbox is too full to receive messages so you might have to delete a few.

 

[Lukef2000]

Ok. It says your inbox is too full to receive messages so you might have to delete a few.

Ok give me a few minutes

 

[Lukef2000]

Done

 

[Aaron330]

Done

Hmm... I don't think my emails are going through. Are you getting them? They aren't appearing in my sentbox

 

[Lukef2000]

Hmm... I don't think my emails are going through. Are you getting them? They aren't appearing in my sentbox

Haha yeah bro I got them all. I just sent that email off.

 

[absurd]

I got something similar going on but no lump my nips are puffy and kinda sore so I'm just running erase it might be prolactin related.


I posted about it here.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/serious-nutrition-solutions/239894-inhibit-p-epistane.html#post4292986

It blows because I was gonna start another epi run in 2 weeks guess I'll delay it.

 

[Lukef2000]

I got something similar going on but no lump my nips are puffy and kinda sore so I'm just running erase it might be prolactin related.

I posted about it here.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/serious-nutrition-solutions/239894-inhibit-p-epistane.html#post4292986

It blows because I was gonna start another epi run in 2 weeks guess I'll delay it.

Lol why would you think it's prolactin related?? Are you lactating?? Rebound gyno is common from Epi so id almost wager my left nut that its from estrogen.

 

[doggy_dog]

Damn... sorry to hear, Aaron.
I hope you get it straightened out, dude.

It's stuff like this that makes me nervous about my cycle. (havent started yet)
In my mind, Aaron did it all perfectly and he still ended up with this problem.

 

[Lukef2000]

Damn... sorry to hear, Aaron.
I hope you get it straightened out, dude.

It's stuff like this that makes me nervous about my cycle. (havent started yet)
In my mind, Aaron did it all perfectly and he still ended up with this problem.

Gyno is always going to show its ugly head at some point when your messing with hormones. The only thing you can do is deal with it properly when it comes. There's plenty of different avenues you can do to combat the issue.

 

[absurd]

Lol why would you think it's prolactin related?? Are you lactating?? Rebound gyno is common from Epi so id almost wager my left nut that its from estrogen.

Your right I probably panicked. Anyhow I did drink alcohol after I was done with nolva while I was on erase that might of caused it. I don't feel any lumps just sore and puffy nips. Also can't I just run another epi cycle epi has serm like qualities and has been known to reduce gyno. I'm still not sure I even have gyno might just be panicking and it could be fat/water weight on my chest.

 

[Aaron330]

Damn... sorry to hear, Aaron. I hope you get it straightened out, dude. It's stuff like this that makes me nervous about my cycle. (havent started yet) In my mind, Aaron did it all perfectly and he still ended up with this problem.

It's all good man, I just got home from the airport from Christmas break and got my raloxifene from the mail. So I'm going to start tonight and kick this thing in the butt right away.

I'll keep you guys updated on how the anti-gyno treatment goes. I'll be following Luke's advice and running Raloxifene and Exemestane. If that doesn't work I'm gonna run letro, but I'm positive this should take care of it because what I have is very mild, mostly puffy sensitive nips, and I think I can feel a small lump forming.

For all you experts on here, do you think my rebound was due to taking Clomid&Nolva, which might have been too much suppression of my estrogen levels? I think I may try to just run 1 SERM next time...

 

[absurd]

It's all good man, I just got home from the airport from Christmas break and got my raloxifene from the mail. So I'm going to start tonight and kick this thing in the butt right away.

I'll keep you guys updated on how the anti-gyno treatment goes. I'll be following Luke's advice and running Raloxifene and Exemestane. If that doesn't work I'm gonna run letro, but I'm positive this should take care of it because what I have is very mild, mostly puffy sensitive nips, and I think I can feel a small lump forming.

For all you experts on here, do you think my rebound was due to taking Clomid&Nolva, which might have been too much suppression of my estrogen levels? I think I may try to just run 1 SERM next time...

I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.

 

[Aaron330]

I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.

I think so too, the erase obviously didn't do anything to keep my estrogen from aromatizing. Next time I'm gonna go with exemestane which is a much more powerful AI

 

[Lukef2000]

It's all good man, I just got home from the airport from Christmas break and got my raloxifene from the mail. So I'm going to start tonight and kick this thing in the butt right away.

I'll keep you guys updated on how the anti-gyno treatment goes. I'll be following Luke's advice and running Raloxifene and Exemestane. If that doesn't work I'm gonna run letro, but I'm positive this should take care of it because what I have is very mild, mostly puffy sensitive nips, and I think I can feel a small lump forming.

For all you experts on here, do you think my rebound was due to taking Clomid&Nolva, which might have been too much suppression of my estrogen levels? I think I may try to just run 1 SERM next time...

Don't forget to add in your remaining nolva along side the raloxifene. The combination of the two is better than one or the other. Sorry I thought I mentioned that in our earlier conversation.
All serms increase circulating estrogen, that's usually the reason why you run your AI past your serm by a couple weeks.

 

[Lukef2000]

I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.

Hmm an AI with additional cortisol control caused your gyno?? You sure it wasn't from the booze, alcohol is known to raise your e2 levels, and if you've just come off of something that bids to the estrogen receptor..... Well you do the maths.

 

[Aaron330]

Don't forget to add in your remaining nolva along side the raloxifene. The combination of the two is better than one or the other. Sorry I thought I mentioned that in our earlier conversation. All serms increase circulating estrogen, that's usually the reason why you run your AI past your serm by a couple weeks.

Ok I'll take my nolva this morning. I guess I'm just afraid of over doing it lol. I'll keep it to 30mg/day, and with an AI as powerful as exem it should squash any estrogen that tries to rebound when I come off

 

[doggy_dog]

I feel like erase caused mine. When I was taking nolva I was 100% fine and then started taking erase and then bam it hit me. It could of been the alcohol as well but I'm putting my money on erase. Next cycle I'm not running erase at all just nolva and to be safe for 6 weeks not 4.

I don't know about this...
I can't see how Erase can cause gyno.
It may not have helped in preventing a rebound, but I'm not sure how it can be the cause of it.

 

[absurd]

I don't know about this...
I can't see how Erase can cause gyno.
It may not have helped in preventing a rebound, but I'm not sure how it can be the cause of it.

I was fine on the nolva then after erase it hit me erase blocked all the estrogen then bam my body probably thought it was too low and it hit me. That's my theory. Next time I'm trying only Nolva. I'm running nolva now 40/20/20/10/10 and see if it helps. No a.i. Just taper down slowly. I'm pissed as hell because I wanted to start another cycle in a week or two.

 

[Lukef2000]

I was fine on the nolva then after erase it hit me erase blocked all the estrogen then bam my body probably thought it was too low and it hit me. That's my theory. Next time I'm trying only Nolva. I'm running nolva now 40/20/20/10/10 and see if it helps. No a.i. Just taper down slowly. I'm pissed as hell because I wanted to start another cycle in a week or two.

:sigh: AIs don't block estrogen. They work on blocking aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. Erase is a suicidal
AI which actually kills aromatase making gyno impossible. If you ran for example anastrzole then it may be possible as it is a non suicidal AI and only deactivates the enzyme and once you discontinue they can reactivate and can cause rebound issues. But your theory makes zero sense. FYI having zero estrogen doesn't cause gyno.

 

[Aaron330]

Question for you guys. Do you think being on Raloxifene and Nolva would hinder my strength at all? Because my squat has dropped significantly as well as my snatch, clean, presses etc. I can't figure it out but there's a huge drop off. I figure since I'm not coming off a cycle it might just be really inhibiting my strength. Thoughts?

 

[absurd]

:sigh: AIs don't block estrogen. They work on blocking aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. Erase is a suicidal
AI which actually kills aromatase making gyno impossible. If you ran for example anastrzole then it may be possible as it is a non suicidal AI and only deactivates the enzyme and once you discontinue they can reactivate and can cause rebound issues. But your theory makes zero sense. FYI having zero estrogen doesn't cause gyno.

Thanks I got mixed up. I'm gonna be out for nolva for 2 days after tonight because of the stupid blizzard and shipping delays should I take erase on two days without nolva? I've been on nolva for 1.5 weeks now 40/40/40 and 20 for rest of the days. I'm trying to get rid of the gyno.

OP my strength it down too and idk why even before the nolva it went down. I was fine like a month after pct then my strength tanked but so did my diet.