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"Both approaches have use" and "healthy is a relative term" sorry but I disagree with both of these statements. There is no reason to dip so low in calories that you put your health at risk, if fat loss is that much of a concern for someone they should have taken action much sooner. If you're obese then your heart is already taking a beating, stressing it with 1,000 calories and fat loss supplements or DNP sounds like a recipe for death. Is your goal a short term one? Or long term sustainability and great health? As far as healthy is a relative term, the foundation of good health is not. Low BP, low cholesterol, meeting daily micronutrient goals as well as macronutrient goals will at least get a person a healthy foundation; that part isn't relative. Science or not, this is how I think and I won't be swayed.
 
Socalmk6gti said:
"Both approaches have use" and "healthy is a relative term" sorry but I disagree with both of these statements. There is no reason to dip so low in calories that you put your health at risk, if fat loss is that much of a concern for someone they should have taken action much sooner. If you're obese then your heart is already taking a beating, stressing it with 1,000 calories and fat loss supplements or DNP sounds like a recipe for death. Is your goal a short term one? Or long term sustainability and great health? As far as healthy is a relative term, the foundation of good health is not. Low BP, low cholesterol, meeting daily micronutrient goals as well as macronutrient goals will at least get a person a healthy foundation; that part isn't relative. Science or not, this is how I think and I won't be swayed.
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First, I am trying to be clear that I am not taking rat poison and it was brought to my attention that just mentioning those 3 letters is prohibited on this board. I am not using such a substance, nor condoning it.

There is no reason to think 500 calories below maintenance is any safer. But since health is so easily measured, what measurement am I missing? Check my log. My BP is good. I feel good. I'm taking plenty of micronutrients. I am limiting my exogenous macros, but really the only thing I could be lacking is carbs....since my body has ample fat stores. What exactly is unhealthy about eating so little?

If you don't want to be swayed, I respect your opinion. You don't have to change your mind. I am just pushing limits and testing many people's steadfast beliefs. Maybe at the end of it I will say, "Well, it is confirmed. Fat loss stalls on such a diet and you lose some swizzle of muscle tissue, oh, and I died." Or maybe we can all expand what we think is possible and question how things work.
 
HIT4ME said:
First, I am trying to be clear that I am not taking rat poison and it was brought to my attention that just mentioning those 3 letters is prohibited on this board. I am not using such a substance, nor condoning it.

There is no reason to think 500 calories below maintenance is any safer. But since health is so easily measured, what measurement am I missing? Check my log. My BP is good. I feel good. I'm taking plenty of micronutrients. I am limiting my exogenous macros, but really the only thing I could be lacking is carbs....since my body has ample fat stores. What exactly is unhealthy about eating so little?

If you don't want to be swayed, I respect your opinion. You don't have to change your mind. I am just pushing limits and testing many people's steadfast beliefs. Maybe at the end of it I will say, "Well, it is confirmed. Fat loss stalls on such a diet and you lose some swizzle of muscle tissue, oh, and I died." Or maybe we can all expand what we think is possible and question how things work.
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My post originally had nothing to do with you, I was concerned with a completely different person on a completely different forum.
 
HIT4ME said:
As in my log, people often think fat loss has stalled when weight loss stops. Just keep going. After a few days, there is often a flush and you drop weight in chunks. If you are at a lower bf, refeeds are helpful.

This is something I agree with, but it seems to be a bigger issue at lower body fat percentage. I am losing some muscle, maybe, but it isn't dramatic I don't think.

Generally, I agree, but this isn't always the case. And for me personally, slow and steady will mean I will never lose the weight. I am not advising anyone do what I am trying. I am not even saying it is healthy or smart. Just trying to question some steadfast beliefs.

No yo-yo. I was purely gaining weight for over a decade until about 3-4 years ago. Slow and stead got me from 290 to 250. This modified fast got me from 250 to 178. Then over 8 months I gained about 35 pounds back.
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I lost alot of muscle over the course of almost a year and a half and losing about 55 lbs or so back in 08, it was worth it to me. I can relate to that. I want to be lean more than anything, and look good too and thats what I did. I get the occasional comment if I run into somebody from years ago that I dont look jacked anymore....but....I didnt look good without my tshirt on.

Try not to gain that weight back ever again. Learn to take occasional diet breaks for 2-3 weeks and hit maintenance. Your body will love you. Once you hit your goal even consider a mild bulk and get your body to aim for different goals as endless dieting is draining both physically and psychologically (in my experience,) but dont mess with the math, dont do all out bulks (mindlessly eating to get big) and let things go out of control.
 
Socalmk6gti said:
My post originally had nothing to do with you, I was concerned with a completely different person on a completely different forum.
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No worries ...I just felt the need to defend the other side. Part of the reason I started my journey to begin with. To test and explore and question beliefs that seem to be set in stone. I appreciate your side of it too ...your ideas are welcome in my log too...it m a y be helpful to me and to others. I'm not about being right, just doing my thing and Hopi g others can learn and I can learn.
 
thebigt said:
just imagine the world today if the united states had not entered WW2....

if you can find a WW2 veteran [there aren't many left] ask him if dropping the bomb was unjustified!!!
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Murdering innocent people is never justified. All of you in here who have no remorse over Japan are ****ing horrible pigs, disgusting excuses for human beings. People like you all are what I hate about this world. Pathetic disgusting pieces of trash.
 
Socalmk6gti said:
"Both approaches have use" and "healthy is a relative term" sorry but I disagree with both of these statements. There is no reason to dip so low in calories that you put your health at risk, if fat loss is that much of a concern for someone they should have taken action much sooner. If you're obese then your heart is already taking a beating, stressing it with 1,000 calories and fat loss supplements or DNP sounds like a recipe for death. Is your goal a short term one? Or long term sustainability and great health? As far as healthy is a relative term, the foundation of good health is not. Low BP, low cholesterol, meeting daily micronutrient goals as well as macronutrient goals will at least get a person a healthy foundation; that part isn't relative. Science or not, this is how I think and I won't be swayed.
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You won't be swayed? Even if you're wrong? Maybe there are things you haven't yet considered, my friend. Believe me, I was a pharmaceutical chemist for almost 15yrs and a LOT of my opinions have changed about cholesterol, calories, micros and macros, etc. If you get too rigid in your beliefs, you won't be flexible enough to change them when you learn different. It's called functional fixation and it's very non-adaptive. It makes it almost impossible to effectively integrate new information later.

Besides, it's his life to live and his death to choose. Rule #1 is to respect other people's personal choices, if you're expecting them to respect yours.
 
Gutterpump said:
Murdering innocent people is never justified. All of you in here who have no remorse over Japan are ****ing horrible pigs, disgusting excuses for human beings. People like you all are what I hate about this world. Pathetic disgusting pieces of trash.
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I respectfully disagree....people like the Big-T have an incredible heart, they just have different viewpoints which I can respectfully disagree with. So I dont sound like Im categorizing anyone, people like me have different viewpoints than others. Its the intent that matters which we can freely debate and people will have different (although not wrong) standards. Im with you about innocent civilians for the most part though.

So after WWI they knew the horrors of chemical warfare, some 250,000 civilians perished and many military on top of that and the Geneva Protocol was signed so countries abandon these weapons of mass destruction. Now, maybe radiation isnt a "chemical" reaction, but using a nuclear reaction which imo is far and above worse as a loophole to the treaty is wrong as the type of effects are comparable if not far more horrific to chemical weapons of mass destruction.

Of course, will all the wars afterwards we have agent orange in vietnam to using nuclear waste material in bombs in Iraq the US government clearly has no regards to the treaty.
 
UncleSarm said:
You need to read up on WW2 history. Germany had a treaty with Russia (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact) until Germany invaded Russia. Germany also had a cooperation agreement with China (Invalid Link Removed) until it made an alliance with Japan because of Japan's superior military capability. Russia also negotiated a cease fire with Japan.
The UK was barely hanging and the Nazis were planning to invade it (Invalid Link Removed). If the US has not intervened, things would have been very grim. I have British friends who grew up during the Nazi bombing of the UK who said they are very grateful for what American GI's did in WW2.
General Patton alone broke the Nazi advance in North Africa and then stopped the Nazi counteroffensive in Belgium, both of which cost the Nazis dearly in attention and equipment. The Nazis had the most modern and efficient army in the world. The US military at the time was not great, but was eventually able to outmatch both the Nazis and the Japanese because of massive production and no damage to production facilities.
As far as China is concerned, they have always had the million man army, but they were defeated time and again. Genghis Khan defeated them at the head of 100k Mongols and a 10:1 disadvantage. Japan also defeated the million man army again and again (Invalid Link Removed) and if it hadn't been for the US involvement in the pacific, Japan would have eventually taken China, or most of it anyway.
Any way you slice it, US involvement in WW2 was paramount in turning the tide against the Axis powers and growing the military industrial complex.
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I like your post, this is what makes history so fun and fascinating. I cant say either you or me are right or wrong.

Now in regards to China, its a totally different China than the time of Kahn. We have a different generation of weapons. Emperor rule was finally abolished in 1911 with the Chinese Revolution and the government was modernized with Sun Yatsen. Totally different world that centuries before, or even just a half a century earlier.

Desperate measures happen at desperate times. The Kuomintang who were in Civil War with the Communists starting in 1927 even took a pause to unify to battle the Japanese (only to go right back to business after the Japanese were taken care of.) The Chinese with their more modern weapons, relations with Russia and the US (CIA was in China supporting both Kuomintang and Communists) then incredible leadership with Mao Tse Tung who is a military genius certainly had a good chance of outdoing Japan at that time.

Back in the late 1800's the world was so different in China, that stupid Empress spent her entire Navy's budget to rebuild her Summer Palace in a new location that the British destroyed in the 1860's. That line of thinking was gone after Sun-Yatsen.

Just my opinion and also keeping this post short.
 
NutraChem said:
You won't be swayed? Even if you're wrong? Maybe there are things you haven't yet considered, my friend. Believe me, I was a pharmaceutical chemist for almost 15yrs and a LOT of my opinions have changed about cholesterol, calories, micros and macros, etc. If you get too rigid in your beliefs, you won't be flexible enough to change them when you learn different. It's called functional fixation and it's very non-adaptive. It makes it almost impossible to effectively integrate new information later.

Besides, it's his life to live and his death to choose. Rule #1 is to respect other people's personal choices, if you're expecting them to respect yours.
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Great point. I don't think Socal really meant to anyone.

People have views that they have just accepted, and I'm just talking the general public - and I find it interesting that I got SOME flack for being fat because people saw it as unhealthy (which isn't necessarily true), but no one EVER gave me a lecture on over eating. It was almost a joke sometimes.

But go a couple of weeks on a seriously reduced calorie diet and all horror breaks out.

And I get it, because it is an idea I had when I was 20, believed it was stupid and didn't do it, and then 14 years later another member in here mentioned a PSMF and everything fell into place...

I'm sure people have negative beliefs, but I'm also sure that by their standards I am a lot better off than when I was near 300 pounds
 
I'm just stubborn, have my views and respect others views as well. I don't push my ways on anyone. No offense intended to anyone. It's a stupid forum, not worth anyone getting seriously upset about anything.
 
Socalmk6gti said:
I'm just stubborn, have my views and respect others views as well. I don't push my ways on anyone. No offense intended to anyone. It's a stupid forum, not worth anyone getting seriously upset about anything.
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Me too! So maybe we can both learn something.
 
Gutterpump said:
Murdering innocent people is never justified. All of you in here who have no remorse over Japan are ****ing horrible pigs, disgusting excuses for human beings. People like you all are what I hate about this world. Pathetic disgusting pieces of trash.
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I love you too, man!!!
 
odd how hairygrandpa looks like the guy laying in front, in the catch position. was that you when you had more hair on your head
 
[video=youtube;Hphwfq1wLJs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hphwfq1wLJs[/video]

:dance:
 
Now, lets talk about Donald Trump.
This thread got a severe beating from us hijackers.
 
HIT4ME said:
Great point. I don't think Socal really meant to anyone.

People have views that they have just accepted, and I'm just talking the general public - and I find it interesting that I got SOME flack for being fat because people saw it as unhealthy (which isn't necessarily true), but no one EVER gave me a lecture on over eating. It was almost a joke sometimes.

But go a couple of weeks on a seriously reduced calorie diet and all horror breaks out.

And I get it, because it is an idea I had when I was 20, believed it was stupid and didn't do it, and then 14 years later another member in here mentioned a PSMF and everything fell into place...

I'm sure people have negative beliefs, but I'm also sure that by their standards I am a lot better off than when I was near 300 pounds
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My point is that it's your life, and who knows you better than you know yourself? It's easy to make generalizations as long as people remember that's all they are, generalizations.

But honestly, I've achieved some of my greatest advances and insights after making grand mistakes! It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but one extreme follows another. No pain, no gain, that's the equation.
 
Socalmk6gti said:
I'm just stubborn, have my views and respect others views as well. I don't push my ways on anyone. No offense intended to anyone. It's a stupid forum, not worth anyone getting seriously upset about anything.
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I love ya bro! You're a solid adviser, and I always respect and appreciate your insights when you post. :thumbsup:
 
Honestly, a whole bunch of you in here can fkc off. Not joking around this time. Those were two of the largest war crimes of all time. Pretty disgusting to support the (mass) murdering of innocent civilians. Especially around Memorial Day.
 
Gutterpump said:
Honestly, a whole bunch of you in here can fkc off. Not joking around this time. Those were two of the largest war crimes of all time. Pretty disgusting to support the (mass) murdering of innocent civilians. Especially around Memorial Day.
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To think the very goverment who ran torture experiments on our own already traumatized WWII soldiers/vets with electroshock therapy, putting them into insulin induced coma, performed some 2,000 lobotomy's on them and much more.....also exposing them to radiation and killing them with cancer with their atomic experiments and trusting them to make "justified" decisions during time of war is absolutely insane.

Even sending thousands and thousands of our vets to keep running even more atomic experiments exposing them to radiation in the name of science....For damn sakes, they even sent our soldiers to Hiroshima and Nagasaki and had them laying and camping out on the earth near ground zero and got them sick with a death sentence too.

When it comes to the powers of government, they couldnt give a crap about either the civilians or even their own military. At the end of the day its about bank accounts and power.

Goverment and justification dont mix, but they sure teach us that to our childrenz.
 
ax1 said:
When it comes to the powers of government, they couldnt give a crap about either the civilians or even their own military. At the end of the day its about bank accounts and power.

Goverment and justification dont mix, but they sure teach us that to our childrenz.
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^^^ signed.
 
Gutterpump said:
Honestly, a whole bunch of you in here can fkc off. Not joking around this time. Those were two of the largest war crimes of all time. Pretty disgusting to support the (mass) murdering of innocent civilians. Especially around Memorial Day.
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Nobody directly supports mass murder, IMHO.
When reading posts, one can not hear the tone of a voice, this makes text often offensive without intent, especially when it's getting sarcastic -or ironic.
Have to remind me that often.
 
Gutterpump said:
Honestly, a whole bunch of you in here can fkc off. Not joking around this time. Those were two of the largest war crimes of all time. Pretty disgusting to support the (mass) murdering of innocent civilians. Especially around Memorial Day.
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Are you talking about the 2 atomic bombs we dropped?
 
I think it's easy to say that government doesn't care about the people, and the gov't itself, and many of the people in the gov't really don't. Some do, however, and they are just part of the whole and often don't get seen.

To say that the murder of anyone is justified is really just sad. As a matter of fact, whenever I hear someone say, "Everything happens for a reason" I often say to them, "Oh yeah? What about the holocaust? How is that justified?"

But, everything does happen for a cause. And it is very unfortunate that we have people who were killing countless numbers of innocent people, and we had to take drastic actions to end that - or else even more people would have died. Isn't that the point? Those people who died and were innocent are a devastating and sad loss, but without them, even more would have died. And that is borderline justification, but I can't see it that way. It is just an unfortunate reality of the situation. Sometimes you just CAN'T negotiate with people, they just won't listen. And the only way to stop someone, in reality, is through force. In this case, the force involved meant the deaths of thousands of civilians.

And I have to believe, or at least I want to believe, that as much as I dislike the president who dropped that bomb - he had a heavy responsibility and burden and that decision wasn't made lightly. His responsibility, however, was to his citizens and not to the citizens of another country. Those citizens' deaths really fall on the shoulders of the country's leaders - and their actions that created such a horrific need for such actions. Those deaths may sadden us, and even burden out hearts, but they are far from our "fault".

Can I feel sad for the loss of those lives? Yes. Do I feel like the people dropping the bombs are "guilty"? No. It was just the right call. A difficult call. A call that revealed how horrific and devastating a force war can be.
 
HIT4ME said:
I think it's easy to say that government doesn't care about the people, and the gov't itself, and many of the people in the gov't really don't. Some do, however, and they are just part of the whole and often don't get seen.

To say that the murder of anyone is justified is really just sad. As a matter of fact, whenever I hear someone say, "Everything happens for a reason" I often say to them, "Oh yeah? What about the holocaust? How is that justified?"

But, everything does happen for a cause. And it is very unfortunate that we have people who were killing countless numbers of innocent people, and we had to take drastic actions to end that - or else even more people would have died. Isn't that the point? Those people who died and were innocent are a devastating and sad loss, but without them, even more would have died. And that is borderline justification, but I can't see it that way. It is just an unfortunate reality of the situation. Sometimes you just CAN'T negotiate with people, they just won't listen. And the only way to stop someone, in reality, is through force. In this case, the force involved meant the deaths of thousands of civilians.

And I have to believe, or at least I want to believe, that as much as I dislike the president who dropped that bomb - he had a heavy responsibility and burden and that decision wasn't made lightly. His responsibility, however, was to his citizens and not to the citizens of another country. Those citizens' deaths really fall on the shoulders of the country's leaders - and their actions that created such a horrific need for such actions. Those deaths may sadden us, and even burden out hearts, but they are far from our "fault".

Can I feel sad for the loss of those lives? Yes. Do I feel like the people dropping the bombs are "guilty"? No. It was just the right call. A difficult call. A call that revealed how horrific and devastating a force war can be.
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well thought out post...if someone broke into my house and I shot them, I would feel horrible about having to take a life...but you can bet I would do it to protect myself and my family!!! but I would not feel good about having to do it, sometimes we are put in situations where decisions need to be made that do not come with happy endings.
 
thebigt said:
well thought out post...if someone broke into my house and I shot them, I would feel horrible about having to take a life...but you can bet I would do it to protect myself and my family!!! but I would not feel good about having to do it, sometimes we are put in situations where decisions need to be made that do not come with happy endings.
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That's the dumbest analogy to what I said that I've ever heard. How did you get such a breif analogy from my novel?

Oh, wait, it says almost exactly what I was trying to say, but shorter.

Guess brevity isn't my strong suit.

(Imternet Sarcasm alert - in case it is missed)
 
Lmao my girlfriend showed me that about a week ago. I dont blame her!!
 
Well, we had our 1 day here in the nation with the vets and now thats long and gone, lets give the whole month of June to gays and trannies.

Nice timing! Thanks OBAMA!

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ax1 said:
Well, we had our 1 day here in the nation with the vets and now thats long and gone, lets give the whole month of June to gays and trannies.

Nice timing! Thanks OBAMA!

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And people worry about Trump?
 
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