Donald Trump running for president

Geoforce said:
How much do you spend on people in need per year? Don't you think some of these things came into existence because the kindness of strangers wasn't enough to help out all situations? What if in a completely free market no one helps out?

Just bad luck for those born into bad situations? Tough break if you don't have legs to pull yourself up by the bootstraps?
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Misfit28 said:
Socialism, which is already part of the system, helps quite a bit.

Socialism is already here ;)
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We are 20 trillion in debt, my SS statement says the system is going broke and that Im only getting a lesser percentage than the current statement. We need to end socialism right away.

I wanna get rid of socialism, not accept it just because its here.

Government just wants people dependent on them to monopolize power.
 
Misfit28 said:
Socialism, which is already part of the system, helps quite a bit.

Socialism is already here ;)
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A mixed market economy like we have is almost undoubtedly far superior to no government or all government systems. Their is a reason why this has essentially won out in developed countries.

Of course Ax is free to make up his mind to start a no government free market utopia, wonder why he won't do it?
 
ax1 said:
We are 20 trillion in debt, my SS statement says the system is going broke and that Im only getting a lesser percentage than the current statement. We need to end socialism right away.

I wanna get rid of socialism, not accept it just because its here.

Government just wants people dependent on them to monopolize power.
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Under your definition of socialism it has been here since the government was founded. Somehow we've become a beacon for opportunity, freedom, quality of life, etc. All despite this awful nasty government involvement that is keeping you down so much you have all this free time to post on the internet.
 
Geoforce said:
How much do you spend on people in need per year? Don't you think some of these things came into existence because the kindness of strangers wasn't enough to help out all situations? What if in a completely free market no one helps out?

Just bad luck for those born into bad situations? Tough break if you don't have legs to pull yourself up by the bootstraps?
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It would be alot more if government didnt keep printing money out of thin air devaluing my savings to bail out wall-street and falsely prop up the economy and also steal money from my earnings.

I dont give as much as I used to because I cant anymore. Obamacare even raised my insurance costs. I quit giving to beggars on the street after that happened to make up for it.
 
Geoforce said:
Under your definition of socialism it has been here since the government was founded. Somehow we've become a beacon for opportunity, freedom, quality of life, etc. All despite this awful nasty government involvement that is keeping you down so much you have all this free time to post on the internet.
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If socialism is so good, make it optional. People are free to buy in, and free to opt out. Where in 1776 did they pillage peoples income to pay for other people?

Government isnt keeping me down, its keeping me alive and strong. Im here to fight not like the millions that beg for government dependence.
 
ax1 said:
It would be alot more if government didnt keep printing money out of thin air devaluing my savings to bail out wall-street and falsely prop up the economy and also steal money from my earnings.

I dont give as much as I used to because I cant anymore. Obamacare even raised my insurance costs. I quit giving to beggars on the street after that happened to make up for it.
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Yet Trump says he doesn't worry about the debt because we can print more, LOL.
 
ax1 said:
If socialism is so good, make it optional. People are free to buy in, and free to opt out. Where in 1776 did they pillage peoples income to pay for other people?

Government isnt keeping me down, its keeping me alive and strong. Im here to fight not like the millions that beg for government dependence.
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What is it with this obsession with the past that Libertarians and Conservatives seem to have?

The world is TOTALLY different than it was back in 1776!!!!!

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Misfit28 said:
Yet Trump says he doesn't worry about the debt because we can print more, LOL.
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He is an idiot. If he was the real deal he would be coming out to audit the fed and then finally get rid of the central banking system.
 
ax1 said:
It would be alot more if government didnt keep printing money out of thin air devaluing my savings to bail out wall-street and falsely prop up the economy and also steal money from my earnings.

I dont give as much as I used to because I cant anymore. Obamacare even raised my insurance costs. I quit giving to beggars on the street after that happened to make up for it.
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God forbid a nation tries to provide health care for its citizens. I forgot though if it wasn't for government doctors would work for free and see everyone because that makes sense because they took an oath. So your argument is that without government we'd have perfect health care because doctors and nurses would work for free.

In free market utopia if people don't freely give enough what happens to the disabled? What happens to those with special needs? You do realize most government has come about in existence because of inequalities created by a purely free market right? I can get on board with less government, being efficient, rethinking things. It's just this no government would be so amazing utopia that I have to laugh at.

Once again though I don't see these free market worshipping people creating their own non government society.
 
Misfit28 said:
What is it with this obsession with the past that Libertarians and Conservatives seem to have?

The world is TOTALLY different than it was back in 1776!!!!!

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What is it with the obsession where liberals want to force everybody against their will to buy into their political ideology? At least Libertarians want to leave people alone.
 
ax1 said:
If socialism is so good, make it optional. People are free to buy in, and free to opt out. Where in 1776 did they pillage peoples income to pay for other people?

Government isnt keeping me down, its keeping me alive and strong. Im here to fight not like the millions that beg for government dependence.
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82% of food stamps go towards children, the disabled, and the elderly. Remember the good old Industrial Revolution where 7 year olds needed to work 7 days a week? Those kids were so thankful they didn't have the jack booted government thugs making them go to school.
 
Geoforce said:
God forbid a nation tries to provide health care for its citizens. I forgot though if it wasn't for government doctors would work for free and see everyone because that makes sense because they took an oath. So your argument is that without government we'd have perfect health care because doctors and nurses would work for free.

In free market utopia if people don't freely give enough what happens to the disabled? What happens to those with special needs? You do realize most government has come about in existence because of inequalities created by a purely free market right? I can get on board with less government, being efficient, rethinking things. It's just this no government would be so amazing utopia that I have to laugh at.

Once again though I don't see these free market worshipping people creating their own non government society.
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There is no such thing as perfect health care. You cant force people to provide their services either. I guarantee there will be alot of free and especially cheaper and real affordable health care (patient directly to doctor, no bureaucracy in the middle) and most people in a developed society will be able to afford it for the most part.

People who are disabled still have it bad even with the current system. I remember there were vets laying on the street in front of the military base begging for help when they were giving free top of the line health care to illegal children that just crossed the border. Dont forget to cut costs vets were dying in basements with treatable injuries. Government care about green, not you.

Really, there is no reason to believe the planet is going to collapse without socialism, life is hard we all know that but you cant just steal other people's money and give it to others against their will. That is immoral.
 
ax1 said:
What is it with the obsession where liberals want to force everybody against their will to buy into their political ideology? At least Libertarians want to leave people alone.
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Wouldn't it be easier to just create your own country then, just for Libertarians?

Last time I checked, the Constitution mentioned "We the people".
 
Misfit28 said:
Wouldn't it be easier to just create your own country then, just for Libertarians?

Last time I checked, the Constitution mentioned "We the people".
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First off, Im not a libertarian.

I think your slogan is "We love tyranny!"

Speaking of "own" country, this country is set up with 50 mini countries. The government has been diminishing state powers unfortunately and growing its illegal Federal powers and influence, but thats not the point.

I wouldnt have an issue with socialism should you give it as state rights rather than federal rights. Let the states compete with each other and give people options to choose their own better life path rather than just forcing socialist ideology and criminalizing opting out.
 
Misfit28 said:
Sorry, I just see Libertarianism as self centered and completely selfish.
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And forcing big government to steal my money to support your political ideology and criminalizing my own life path isnt self centered and completely selfish?

At least libertarians are stealing the money out of your check before you get it.
 
ax1 said:
There is no such thing as perfect health care. You cant force people to provide their services either. I guarantee there will be alot of free and especially cheaper and real affordable health care (patient directly to doctor, no bureaucracy in the middle) and most people in a developed society will be able to afford it for the most part.

People who are disabled still have it bad even with the current system. I remember there were vets laying on the street in front of the military base begging for help when they were giving free top of the line health care to illegal children that just crossed the border. Dont forget to cut costs vets were dying in basements with treatable injuries. Government care about green, not you.

Really, there is no reason to believe the planet is going to collapse without socialism, life is hard we all know that but you cant just steal other people's money and give it to others against their will. That is immoral.
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Why do you live here? Are you not free to join some other society? I think Africa has a lot of places without "socialism." I would think you'd go there. You might not have internet, but you wouldn't have those thieving taxes!
 
Geoforce said:
82% of food stamps go towards children, the disabled, and the elderly. Remember the good old Industrial Revolution where 7 year olds needed to work 7 days a week? Those kids were so thankful they didn't have the jack booted government thugs making them go to school.
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This isnt the 1800's anymore. Just because we want to give people freedoms and liberties to have their own free will doesnt mean kids are going to work in sweat shops. Its not going to happen.
 
Geoforce said:
Why do you live here? Are you not free to join some other society? I think Africa has a lot of places without "socialism." I would think you'd go there. You might not have internet, but you wouldn't have those thieving taxes!
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Im staying here even if the ship sinks, that makes me a true patriot.

Being that Im not going anywhere, Ill be comfortable putting my vote where it matters and my money where people want to restore the Bill of Rights and Constitution.

Running from your problems is an act of coward, so sorry no Africa for me. Im here to defend the human rights of Americans.
 
ax1 said:
First off, Im not a libertarian.

I think your slogan is "We love tyranny!"

Speaking of "own" country, this country is set up with 50 mini countries. The government has been diminishing state powers unfortunately and growing its illegal Federal powers and influence, but
thats not the point.

I wouldnt have an issue with socialism should you give it as state rights rather than federal rights. Let the states compete with each other and give people options to choose their own better life path rather than just forcing socialist ideology and criminalizing opting out.
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You fooled me about the Libertarian thing. You certainly sound like one. Right down to the States' rights and calling taxes thievery.
 
Misfit28 said:
You fooled me about the Libertarian thing. You certainly sound like one. Right down to the States' rights and calling taxes thievery.
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Ding dong...I wanted to vote for Bernie in NY a short while back.
 
Misfit28 said:
So you believe government doesn't exist?
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No, I just dont blindly cling to any political ideology and I especially dont join political groups.

I can respect socialists, Im flexible. Im here arguing my points, but that doesnt exactly mean your dead wrong. I can compromise when it matters.
 
Misfit28 said:
Crap junk food is cheap because of the subsidization of crappy farm products.

Add that to the lack of places to buy quality food in poor neighborhoods and you get bad food choices.

You think poor people can afford to go to Whole Foods?
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Michelle Obama's food deserts are a huge problem.
 
ax1 said:
No, I just dont blindly cling to any political ideology and I especially dont join political groups.

I can respect socialists, Im flexible. Im here arguing my points, but that doesnt exactly mean your dead wrong. I can compromise when it matters.
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I can appreciate that.

Here's something I've wondered for a long time: is it possible to be filthy rich and never take advantage of those with less?

Just a general question, not necessarily directed just at you. I'm generally interested in this essential question.
 
Misfit28 said:
So, based on your limited observations, all poor people buy crappy food with their food stamps?

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I guess poor people should have no pleasure? Maybe the ice cream was for a birthday party, did you ask them? Maybe the time you saw them buy a candy bar was the one they alot themselves for the month. Seems a bit judgmental to me.

Honestly, if my tax dollars can make a poor child happy for one day, it's worth it. I've been poor too and it's pretty ****ing miserable to have to worry about food and money all the time as a kid.
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I've been behind a lady in checkout using her EBT card, talking on a Galaxy Note giant I Phone, buying a couple things. The cashier said " I see your back again:. Welfare lady mumbled someyhing, and didn't have enough on her card, so she told cashier to keep one item. Welfare lady said I'll be back tomorrow. As I walk to my car, welfare lady is getting into a Lexus IS that's can't be more than 2 or 3 years old, with shiny 20" chrome wheels on it.
 
Misfit28 said:
I can appreciate that.

Here's something I've wondered for a long time: is it possible to be filthy rich and never take advantage of those with less?

Just a general question, not necessarily directed just at you. I'm generally interested in this essential question.
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I do believe its possible to be rich and not take advantage of those with less. The problem are humans in general, both poor, middle class and rich people take advantage of other people.

I think its best to judge on a case by case basis rather than putting down a group as a whole.
 
ax1 said:
Flat tax with first $15k exempt will only help poor people. I was poor for years, I know what hurt me most and that was the income tax.
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don't forget sales tax, gasoline tax, dining out tax, alcohol tax, entertainment tax, property tax....just to name a few....and if you are a small business owner forget it, taking a crap gets taxed....
 
Misfit28 said:
I can appreciate that.

Here's something I've wondered for a long time: is it possible to be filthy rich and never take advantage of those with less?

Just a general question, not necessarily directed just at you. I'm generally interested in this essential question.
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It depends on what your skewed definition of "take advantage of those with less" is.
 
youngandfree said:
I've been behind a lady in checkout using her EBT card, talking on a Galaxy Note giant I Phone, buying a couple things. The cashier said " I see your back again:. Welfare lady mumbled someyhing, and didn't have enough on her card, so she told cashier to keep one item. Welfare lady said I'll be back tomorrow. As I walk to my car, welfare lady is getting into a Lexus IS that's can't be more than 2 or 3 years old, with shiny 20" chrome wheels on it.
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Thats crazy.

Not far from me a gas station were giving like $100 cash for $150 in welfare transactions, most of this was so people can go out and buy drugs.

They got their azz.

Its unfortunate how people advantage the system. Id like to see some better screening rather than just wiping out assistance at this current stage.
 
thebigt said:
don't forget sales tax, gasoline tax, dining out tax, alcohol tax, entertainment tax, property tax....just to name a few....and if you are a small business owner forget it, taking a crap gets taxed....
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Those taxes arent de-meaning the way the income tax is. A man who doesnt own their labor is a slave.

With other taxes we have more control on how and when we want to spend at least.

Im not for no taxes, just no income tax.
 
youngandfree said:
I've been behind a lady in checkout using her EBT card, talking on a Galaxy Note giant I Phone, buying a couple things. The cashier said " I see your back again:. Welfare lady mumbled someyhing, and didn't have enough on her card, so she told cashier to keep one item. Welfare lady said I'll be back tomorrow. As I walk to my car, welfare lady is getting into a Lexus IS that's can't be more than 2 or 3 years old, with shiny 20" chrome wheels on it.
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Calling BS here. Every far right person has some similar story. Remember Ronnie's welfare queen story that didn't actually happen? While it is possible and even probable that fraud exists in the system, this idea that the vast majority of people are somehow rich from this stuff just isn't based in reality. I teach in an impoverished district where almost 75% of children qualify for free and reduced lunches. I don't see any Lexus in our parking lots. Somehow everyone who is anti-government assistance has stood in line behind somebody buying something extremely expensive off of welfare or seen them get into something super nice.

A family of four can expect up to $500 a month in food stamp benefits. A single person can expect an average of $200 a month.
The average monthly allowance under TANF/AFDC is $900 for a family of four. For a single person the average is about $300.
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You want to talk about fraud let's talk about the militaries over 1.5 trillon F-35.
 
So now food deserts don't exist? There's been a lot of research on that topic, about to drive home and can't access it right now.

Getting right into my wheelhouse here :).
 
ax1 said:
Thats crazy.

Not far from me a gas station were giving like $100 cash for $150 in welfare transactions, most of this was so people can go out and buy drugs.

They got their azz.

Its unfortunate how people advantage the system. Id like to see some better screening rather than just wiping out assistance at this current stage.
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Let's keep knocking these myths out:

In recent years, several states have tried requiring drug tests of welfare recipients. The number of applicants who tested positive for drugs was not enough to make the programs cost-effective in every state where it was tried. Even Florida’s governor, Rick Scott, one of the early proponents of the idea has given up on it after his plan was ruled unconstitutional by two federal courts.

When Florida tried drug tests for welfare in 2011, only about two percent of all applicants tested positive for drug use. According to the New York Times, federal statistics show that the rate of drug use among welfare recipients is about the same as it is for the public at large.
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Geoforce said:
You want to talk about fraud let's talk about the militaries over 1.5 trillon F-35.
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At least they made something.

Real military fraud is Rumsfeld announcing the day before 9/11 that there is 2.3 trillion dollars missing and unaccounted and the next day the computer servers that would have enabled and audit get knocked out. Move on, nothing to see here, 2.3 trillion, oh well.
 
ax1 said:
This isnt the 1800's anymore. Just because we want to give people freedoms and liberties to have their own free will doesnt mean kids are going to work in sweat shops. Its not going to happen.
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So your argument is that health care will be fine because it was in the past (long before technology and people living much much longer), but the inequalities of the past won't happen in pure free markets like they did in the past.

Essentially look to the past when it helps your argument and take your word it won't happen again? With 0 child labor laws and 0 gov't assistance what happens to the 7 year old who's parents pass away? He's going to work before starve? And big business has a real good track record with not exploiting cheap labor right?
 
Misfit28 said:
I can appreciate that.

Here's something I've wondered for a long time: is it possible to be filthy rich and never take advantage of those with less?

Just a general question, not necessarily directed just at you. I'm generally interested in this essential question.
Click to expand...

it is impossible to become filthy rich without taking advantage of those with less...even the bible makes mention of this--something about a rich man and a camel going thru the eye of a needle...then you have love of money...then you have jesus in the temple upturning the money lenders tables...the list is long.

show me a filthy rich person and I will show you someone who has taken advantage of others...kick em when their up, kick em when their down....

but to be fair, almost everyone jumps on an opportunity to take advantage...ever negotiated to buy a car from someone who really needs cash desperately?
 
Geoforce said:
Calling BS here. Every far right person has some similar story. Remember Ronnie's welfare queen story that didn't actually happen? While it is possible and even probable that fraud exists in the system, this idea that the vast majority of people are somehow rich from this stuff just isn't based in reality. I teach in an impoverished district where almost 75% of children qualify for free and reduced lunches. I don't see any Lexus in our parking lots. Somehow everyone who is anti-government assistance has stood in line behind somebody buying something extremely expensive off of welfare or seen them get into something super nice.



You want to talk about fraud let's talk about the militaries over 1.5 trillon F-35.
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Come down to the hood in VA and I'll point them out to you for hours.
 
Geoforce said:
Let's keep knocking these myths out:
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Im telling you what happened, I used to go to that gas station. It was in my paper all detailed.

Ive met plenty of people in my lifetime that were on probation and still did drugs and passed the test. Cocaine and certain other drugs leaves your system pretty fast too. And yes, I know alot of people on welfare that do drugs and drink. Does the government judge drinkers btw?
 
youngandfree said:
Come down to the hood in VA and I'll point them out to you for hours.
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If they are wealthy why would they be in the hood? Wouldn't they use all that sweet welfare cash to find better dwellings. If you have to go to impoverished places to find examples of people getting wealthy from welfare you've already lost my man.

This idea that most welfare people are somehow better off than most working Americans isn't backed up by anything rational. Fraud undoubtedly exists, but let's not blow the problem out of proportion and act like most nice cars you see are because someone scammed welfare.
 
Misfit28 said:
So now food deserts don't exist? There's been a lot of research on that topic, about to drive home and can't access it right now.

Getting right into my wheelhouse here :).
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The term Food desert is a joke in and of itself. Along with Social Justice. The people that coined those terms need to have their mama slapped.
 
Geoforce said:
So your argument is that health care will be fine because it was in the past (long before technology and people living much much longer), but the inequalities of the past won't happen in pure free markets like they did in the past.

Essentially look to the past when it helps your argument and take your word it won't happen again? With 0 child labor laws and 0 gov't assistance what happens to the 7 year old who's parents pass away? He's going to work before starve? And big business has a real good track record with not exploiting cheap labor right?
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This can all be addressed, no problem.
 
youngandfree said:
The term Food desert is a joke in and of itself. Along with Social Justice. The people that coined those terms need to have their mama slapped.
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Oh really? I don't think you've ever really lived in or even seen a "hood".

Not surprised that you reject things that have been studied by experts, though.
 
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