Donald Trump running for president

[manifesto]

That is the major factor, not just accounted for.

Its funny how anti the general public are anout ensuring those on the minimum wage make enough to not die, yet dont bat an eye to the CEOs who increase their million dollar pay packet every year by millions.

Maybe instead of getting mad at the poor, we should get mad at the people keeping them there

So, we are keeping the poor people down now too huh.....could it be alot of them are lazy, drug addiction, alcoholics, etc...everything is always someone else's fault....

 

[BOSSMAN]

So, we are keeping the poor people down now too huh.....could it be alot of them are lazy, drug addiction, alcoholics, etc...everything is always someone else's fault....

ALWAYS!!!

 

[manifesto]

Gets a masters.

Gets paid $15 an hour.

Need govt assistance because $15 is not enough to live on.

Have Ax1 say its your fault for being poor despite having a masters. View attachment 201204

What job is this for, and which state????

 

[tyga tyga]

[QUOTE="ax1, post: 6456822 I say death to hourly pay as a whole.[/QUOTE]

Individuals who are salaried don’t always get a fair shake either.

Hourly- they get paid for their time and are given overtime pay if exceeded

Salaried- get paid the same regardless of the time.

Now, generally there is a significant pay difference but companies tend to steal from the salaried employees more often because they’re not required to clock in.

 

[Ricky10]

They protecting the Capitol from treasonous rioters, in case you forgot what happened there only a few days ago?

Ah yes, the worst day in our country since 9/11! How could I forget

 

[puccah8808]

[QUOTE="ax1, post: 6456822 I say death to hourly pay as a whole.

Individuals who are salaried don’t always get a fair shake either.

Hourly- they get paid for their time and are given overtime pay if exceeded

Salaried- get paid the same regardless of the time.

Now, generally there is a significant pay difference but companies tend to steal from the salaried employees more often because they’re not required to clock in.[/QUOTE]

Agree! The more you work, the less you make when you break things down. It’s pretty abusive at times.

 

[HIT4ME]

How is minimum wage any different than price fixing?

 

[sammpedd88]

That is the major factor, not just accounted for.

Its funny how anti the general public are anout ensuring those on the minimum wage make enough to not die, yet dont bat an eye to the CEOs who increase their million dollar pay packet every year by millions.

Maybe instead of getting mad at the poor, we should get mad at the people keeping them there

In response to your last statement....that’s why a lot of us on this thread vote republican. The democrat game plan has always been to increase welfare so they can keep the hood in the hood, so to speak. It’s guaranteed votes for their party.

Minimum wage jobs are not and never have been designed to be career jobs. They’re stepping stones, like for high school/college kids. BUT....you bust your ass at a McDonald’s and see if you don’t start making bank as a manager. It’s called hard work. There’s other places people can look to get a job with benefits that make more than minimum wage. Garbage collectors make way more than minimum wage.

 

[Ricky10]

I was just looking at some car reviews on YouTube and stumbled upon this gruesome video

Warning: Viewer Discretion is Advised. Video contains malicious content of reverse racism and baseless claims that could incite violence

 

[manifesto]

 

[Ricky10]

View attachment 201216

Yes! I posted that last night, but it’s definitely worth posting again! Well, I suppose the third time is a charm..

 

[HIT4ME]

Asking for more than minimum wage isn't communism. Jesus.

Every argument you make just circles back to the same old crap.

You try appear educated, but are clearly not at all well versed in economics. I'm not either, but I don't pretend to be.

You know nothing about the poverty cycle, so stop pretending you do. Period.

I am no expert on economics either. I play one on the internet though, and I did recently have one of the greatest economic minds today call the evidence of voter fraud that I presented earlier in this thread, "Intriguing" and he told me I think like an economist, which was a compliment to me I guess?

But hey, there's no evidence. But, wait, shouldn't we listen to experts? I'm so confused.

The govt has to mandate anti trust laws to stop companies forcing out competition by having too much power.

You're way of thinking would simply make powerful companies more powerful and put mom and pop stores out of business.

The free market dont get a damn if it screws over others or it's workers.

So, I am against minimum wage - but not because I want poor people to suffer. Honestly, I think we focus too much on hand outs and not on how to actually give people a better situation. One thing I've learned over the past decade is that, in business, if you have money you will ALWAYS have a negotiating advantage over those who do NOT have. The number of times I (with no money) have made a deal with people with money, put in the work for an outcome and achieved it, only to have them turn around after the fact and find some way to reduce what they pay me is amazing. And since I need SOMETHING, I often have no real leverage to fight back. Can I scratch and claw my way out? Sure.

On the other hand I recently formed a partnership with one of he "haves" who is a truly good guy with integrity and we had a mutual benefit - we each brought something to the table - and having him in my corner has changed the entire game for me. So, bottom line, I get that it's easy to say "pull yourself up" and harder to do. And I get that having a hand-up is a blessing many never receive.

My issue with minimum wage is that, it has unintended negative consequences. It is essentially price fixing by labor buyers. It eliminates the free market for labor. My belief is that people should be paid what they are worth - and a free market is the best way to find the true value of anything. If I only have one buyer and no competition to buy, my price will be lower than if there are multiple buyers. And if all of the buyers know what the other buyers are spending, they have no incentive to compete - so multiple labor buyers with a fixed price is essentially the same as only having one person to go to for work.

As an analogy, if I go to McDs and ask for a job, they will offer me minimum wage. If I don't like it and go to their competitor, Burger King, well, what are they going to offer? Minimum wage. There will never be a discussion of, "Well, McD's will pay $13 what can you offer?"

On the other side, if you believe it will actually increase employee wages, it will be detrimental to smaller businesses - the very people who are trying to create something to pull themselves up. If I have some highly unskilled job to complete, and I now have to pay $4/hour more to accomplish it - that's a problem. Because it's not just $32/day more. It could be $320/day more very easily. Having sold a number of small businesses, many of these people are making $50-100K a year and they cannot absorb an additional $9,000/month in labor costs.

Ultimately, I think people should be paid for the value they actually deliver. If the value is very small, then their pay will be small. On the same hand, I think the benefit of a free working force is that you have people competing for your labor - and minimum wage eliminates that for the poorest and most vulnerable people. It traps them into a system where their compensation for their labor is no longer based on their actual production or value, it is based on the fact that they are "poor".

And lets be real here. The typical job, if we assume 40 hours/week for 50 weeks of the year, entails 2,000 hours of labor. At $19/hour that's $38,000/year. You could get by on that in many areas in the US - the areas without many jobs. But in the areas with many, many jobs - where the competition for labor will be highest - $38,000 won't barely pay your rent once you pay taxes on it. So you eliminate the competition in the areas with the greatest need for competition. That pay in Boston or worse - NYC or CA - is poverty level still. And regardless, NO ONE is raising themselves out of a dumpster with $38,000 in taxable income in the US. Let's be real. Especially if you need a Masters to earn it, as you point out. The payments on those loans will eat that up. For people in this situation, I highly recommend a protein sparing modified fast...if they can even afford that.

More revenue is generated in return back to the government when they get penalized for making more too.

Success is a crime, unless you shut up and comply to your slavemasters.

Amazon made millions in revenue and paid no tax until like last year or whatever.

They made 280 billion in 2019, and paid like 1% tax on that AND still has employees on the bread line. That's what happens when a company is more loyal to investors than its staff

The real 'slaves' (your words), are the people working 12 hour shifts for minimum wage for a multi billion dollar company AND still standing in line for govt handouts because they can barely afford food and rent.

I am grouping the above 2 quotes together of course here - but you have just laid out the true incentive the gov't has for increasing minimum wage. It is a way to squeeze more taxes out of people like Amazon and all other business owners. Business owners pay taxes differently than individual people with low incomes. The wealthy can afford to pay the best accountants and find every loophole and pay fewer taxes. The ultra-wealthy can choose not to pay taxes at all, because they don't HAVE to make any money and if they choose not to have any additional income, they don't have anything to pay taxes on.

But those low-income workers...now...there is a tax base. We can say we are fighting for higher wages and get 20% for every dollar extra they earn! Ultimately it's just money coming from Amazon and the workers won't have the resources or situation to avoid paying it.

It's just another example of someone like Biden acting like he cares about people, but really just using them as a pawn for an ulterior motive.

But this gets back to term limits actually - because WHY does someone like Biden even really care about taxes so much? Because he is employed by the USA! He wants to improve the economic status of his employer, and thus increase his own power and job security. Sure, this may be him on his way out at this point, but he is going to have friends and people that he gains from this that will help his family tremendously long after he is gone. You may not agree with this cynicism and I get that, but that's how I see ALL politicians today with very, very few exceptions.

 

[HIT4ME]

Whut.

If people are paid enough to live, the logic is that they would rely less on govt assistance.

How does that not make sense?

This would be nice, I can agree with this. Again, not against paying people. I want to be paid! I just feel the unintended consequences are the issue here. The sentiment is nice, but it doesn't work.

They protecting the Capitol from treasonous rioters, in case you forgot what happened there only a few days ago?

I think they are protecting the treasonous politicians from the pizzed off rioters.

But, did you forget about 2017? 2018? The names Trump and Kavanaugh ring a bell?

You do realize you are worked up about 5 deaths, if you include a stroke, a heart attack and a suicide. I'm totally against what happened with the cop and I think the woman being shot was tragic but probably justified. But show me a BLM protest that was stopped with only ONE SINGLE SHOT fired? I mean, those protesters were walking up to parked police cruisers and shooting the officers inside with no provocation and you were defending the movement.

I know you don't believe there is any evidence of election fraud, but humor me - what if they are right? What if it was stolen? How would you feel about those rioters now? I don't know that I agree with what they did, but I'm not sure what the appropriate response would be given the situation, and I'm wondering what you think it might have been (if we can put the issue of whether voter fraud is real or not off the table for now).

Gets a masters.

Gets paid $15 an hour.

Need govt assistance because $15 is not enough to live on.

Have Ax1 say its your fault for being poor despite having a masters. View attachment 201204

I see this as the FLAW in minimum wage. An employer can post an ad for anything they like. Whether they fill that position is a different story. I think we can all agree that someone with a masters, in most fields, will likely have better opportunities than this - unless the job has some other benefits not being discussed. For instance, I know a lot of teachers start out for not much more than this, and have masters, but it's a bit of a calling and they can take on summer jobs, etc. until they get raises and the situation improves.

But if we had an established baseline of, "This is what everyone pays" - then where would this person with a masters end up? They could go to the next employer and all they would get is, "Hey, we pay $15.29 for people with master's. That's the standard wage."

As a guy in real estate, I am aware that it is ILLEGAL for me to claim there is a STANDARD commission rate. Why? Because it's price fixing. But if the government sets it, somehow the effect of the same action is different?

You missed the point.

The point is that some companies will demand everything from you and give you nothing in return.

Obviously a person can just not take the job, but this is far more common than people realise, and companies can absolutely demand whatever they like of left to their own devices. If all companies demanded the same thing, then the only option is to take the job.

The reason there are hiring laws to not discriminate based sex, age, ethnicity or religion is because companies used to do this all the time, and they still do but are more clever about it.

At the end of the day, what matters is maximizing returns for shareholders.

I agree, but would suggest that the issue creating this situation is intertwined with the minimum wage issue. Companies can demand more, more, more because they ultimately know that most other companies are doing this too - and finding a company that will be more fair in certain positions is very unlikely. Using McD's again, they know that they can demand more and more and more, and if you quit you end up in Burger King where THEY demand more and more and more - and I just hire someone else for minimum wage.

Now, if I not only know we are all demanding more and more and more, but I also know what the other company is paying you and we have a wink, wink handshake agreement that this is our price we pay for an hour of work....well....it just became that much harder for you to not perform.

The best paying jobs I ever had didnt even have a minimum or hourly wage. You just work and the harder you work the more money you make. Hourly wage thwarts productivity and incentives to do better. I never understood why people believe in such as stupid system. Ive had so many jobs in my youth where Id work 2-4 times harder than another guy and all you get is a 10 cent raise and a pat on the back.

I say death to hourly pay as a whole.

THIS is the BIGGEST issue with AMERICAN labor today. In the corporate world, people walk around ALL THE TIME saying how busy they are. I believe the term is "corporate bragging". And they will tell you, "I was in the office until 9 PM! I work so much."

But why? Get your **** done. MOST people don't deliver 2 hours of legit work per day in the corporate world, yet they take 8 hours to do it. They focus on busy work, and things that don't actually produce. Why? Because, that's how they are measured.

What we should really be concerned with is production - who cares if it takes you 4 hours or 8 hours? I would say if you can get it done in 4 hours, why the heck do I want you to do it in 8? And if you can accomplish twice as much in 8 hours, isn't it worth paying you twice as much or near it?

And people know this - because as you saw, people who got incentives to work that way suddenly PRODUCED.

 

[HIT4ME]

LOL, the best paying job I had I was hired at $0/hr, it was a non-union cable company. I used to put fiber optic cables up norther NY and out by Cape Cod MA I had no idea what the crap was for, lol. They would pay us by the foot and each piece of installation, unlike Union workers, we worked non-stop, fast and with minimal breaks and we would make way more than Union shyt jobs.

Another job that paid very well was refurbishing pallets, we just got $0/hr flat rate and paid per pallet fixed. If you worked hard enough you can do a typical 8 hour shift in 4 hours. All you have to do is work twice the speed to meet your quota. In an hourly job this would have been impossible.

I did do door to door Kirby Vacuum cleaners, wasnt a success for me but it was a very valuable experience. I actually went to a couple of homes where Amway people were just got me in the door just to recruit me into their pyramid schemes, lol

Haha - we could use more of that fiber out here on Cape Cod! You stopped before you got here it seems

NZ has a $19/hr minumum wage and NZ sucks when it comes to fixing the issues with poverty, and its going up to $21/hr this year, and it still wont get nothing done.

27% of children are living in poverty. 1 in 5 children die every week from violence...in a strict gun country!

And you all still oppressing minorities. I know you acknowledge it but damn, you think having $19 minimum wage would fix things like magic???

------------------------------------
The Facts

borgenproject.org

One can define poverty in New Zealand as living in a household that makes 60% less than the average, taking housing costs into consideration. In New Zealand, massive economic restructuring beginning in the 1980s has resulted in prosperity for some, and poverty for others. In 1984, the national poverty rate was 9%. Comparatively, in 2016, the poverty rate was 15%. This represents a decrease from the peak poverty rate of 22% in 2004 but still remains significantly higher than before the mid-1980s, as a direct result of economic change including hard hits during the 2008 recession. Today, about one in seven households experience poverty, with one in five reporting that they do not have access to food or healthy food due to a lack of money according to The National Children’s Nutrition Survey. This means that around 290,000 children (or 27%) were living in poverty in 2017.

When people do not have access to financial and emotional resources, their health is more likely to suffer. New Zealand shows this as children experiencing poverty are more than twice as likely to visit the hospital than those who are not. They are also far more likely to experience health consequences like heart disease, obesity and addiction. These problems often follow children into adulthood, perpetuating the cycle of poverty.

Who is Most Affected?

There is an inequitable distribution of poverty in New Zealand, with Pacific Peoples and other indigenous groups like the Māori and Pakeha peoples experiencing higher levels of poverty than other people. A shocking 40% of Pacific Peoples have an income below the poverty line, with Māori coming in second with nearly one-third of their population experiencing poverty. Additionally, children are harder-hit than other groups. New Zealand has one of the highest rates of child abuse in the developed world.

According to UNICEF, a child dies every five weeks due to violence. Experiencing or seeing violence as a child can lead to negative long-term effects like drug-use, early pregnancy, anxiety and mental disorders and can compound the effects of poverty into adulthood. It is important to reduce childhood poverty rates because statistics have shown that where poverty rates drop, birthrates decrease as well.

Families that are living in poverty need to spend their time and energy on survival, and by necessity spend less time on things like education, emotional health and community. This creates a cycle of more people living in poverty, making the problem bigger over time. If more people come out of poverty now, fewer people will continue to live in poverty in the future. Preventing the inequitable effects of poverty on certain populations is vital in increasing the standard of living for many people and children across New Zealand, especially native populations.

Poverty in New Zealand - The Borgen Project

borgenproject.org

This is the thing. The US has 50 states - 50 individual experiments going. We can test things and see if they work. I usually point to MA being the experiment for the Gov't Health Care system - and it FAILED miserably. Costs increased, people were left with basically no insurance (even though they were listed as having it, it just sucked that bad), and the wait time in hospitals increased, etc. Most people would look at that and say, "Well, we tried it and we still have the same problems, or the problems got worse...maybe this doesn't work and we should try another approach."

But the gov't usually ignores the failures and just keeps going. Or they spend more money on it.

I remember during the Obama/McCain debates the moderator stated that the US spends more money on education than any other country in the world, and yet we are falling behind. And then he asked, "What do we need to do to fix this?"

And BOTH candidates had a response about spending more money. If more money created better education, we would already be the best! As the moderator JUST said, we already spend more than anyone.

And not only are these people leading us, WE are voting for them.

 

[BOSSMAN]

PREACH!!!!!

(now I'm gonna go back and read)

 

[HIT4ME]

PREACH!!!!!

(now I'm gonna go back and read)

Haha, well, I'm gone for 12 hours and this thread moves! haha. Hard to keep up. And some of these issues have a lot of nuance and it's hard to get it down precisely.

 

[BOSSMAN]

Haha, well, I'm gone for 12 hours and this thread moves! haha. Hard to keep up. And some of these issues have a lot of nuance and it's hard to get it down precisely.

Good on you brother!!!
I wish I had that talent to just be able to sit and make things make sense.

I do t think I've ever written or typed anything that long in my life. You just did it in probably what 7 minutes?

Honestly, I couldn't even stay focused long enough to read it all. Just scanned through it

 

[ax1]

Haha - we could use more of that fiber out here on Cape Cod! You stopped before you got here it seems

Actually I remember staying in Middleborough and and I think New Bedford? I cant remember the name and we would go to different areas. I remember we were put in a roach motel a minute away from a strip club and girls fighting eachother all very early mornings.....on a day off we would go in this co-workers White Bronco with Cali plates (Im not fuqing kidding) and cause havoc, late 90s, best of times. So I was there when we put up the original 1st generation fiber optic cables.

 

[HIT4ME]

Good on you brother!!!
I wish I had that talent to just be able to sit and make things make sense.

I do t think I've ever written or typed anything that long in my life. You just did it in probably what 7 minutes?

Honestly, I couldn't even stay focused long enough to read it all. Just scanned through it

lol - I figure a lot of people don't read my stuff It's way too long.

I'm not sure it makes sense either.

And, I hate to say it, but some of these posts take me 20+ minutes to type. What happens is I sit down after being away and have to read and catch up, and I start seeing so many good things to discuss, and I just start putting the quotes in the list. Then, I may come back an hour later and start typing, stop, make a phone call...type some more...do some work...etc. and what started at 8 AM may get posted at 9:30 or 10 and I would estimate those really long posts take me 15-20 minutes at times, with some rare posts going beyond 20 even. It's kind of pathetic, but you guys are a great vent for me plus I get educated a lot from both sides here. I feel like over the past couple years I've become much more educated about world events and ironically this thread is a huge part of that. In real life, I try to keep most of these thoughts to myself because I'm in MA and surrounded by people who will get VERY upset with me. Most of the time they just get upset and don't want to talk about it and will storm off in a huff merely because I don't agree or have questions. I've had times where I really thought it would escalate and I had to diffuse the situation but that is rare.

 

[HIT4ME]

Actually I remember staying in Middleborough and and I think New Bedford? I cant remember the name and we would go to different areas. I remember we were put in a roach motel a minute away from a strip club and girls fighting eachother all very early mornings.....on a day off we would go in this co-workers White Bronco with Cali plates (Im not fuqing kidding) and cause havoc, late 90s, best of times. So I was there when we put up the original 1st generation fiber optic cables.

Nice - that's not too far off Cape. I know both of those towns very well. New Bedford has actually changed a lot since then. I had a guy from out of state looking for a spot to open a restaurant and we were driving around New Bedford and I pointed to this bombed out building and said, "You see that over there? 10-15 years ago this entire city looked like that."

Now it's dramatically improved and cleaned up. You should Google earth it, the downtown area is pretty nice and walkable. I think it's going to be a town that explodes in the next 5-10 years.

 

[ax1]

On the other side, if you believe it will actually increase employee wages, it will be detrimental to smaller businesses - the very people who are trying to create something to pull themselves up. If I have some highly unskilled job to complete, and I now have to pay $4/hour more to accomplish it - that's a problem. Because it's not just $32/day more. It could be $320/day more very easily. Having sold a number of small businesses, many of these people are making $50-100K a year and they cannot absorb an additional $9,000/month in labor costs.

I dont think it would be so much detrimental to smaller businesses, they can hire non-experienced entry level workers and willing to do more training and that gives society more opportunities to get work experience and build a resume. With minimum wage small businesses will be more selective with the people they hire as their resources are more limited.

 

[ax1]

Ultimately, I think people should be paid for the value they actually deliver. If the value is very small, then their pay will be small. On the same hand, I think the benefit of a free working force is that you have people competing for your labor - and minimum wage eliminates that for the poorest and most vulnerable people. It traps them into a system where their compensation for their labor is no longer based on their actual production or value, it is based on the fact that they are "poor".

You probably already responded to this with the few thesises you wrote this morning that Im still working on my coffee and going through, but if you want value the concept of hourly wage as a whole should be abolished....unless its a job where increased production is impossible, then maybe freemarket hourly is fine.

 

[ax1]

But those low-income workers...now...there is a tax base. We can say we are fighting for higher wages and get 20% for every dollar extra they earn! Ultimately it's just money coming from Amazon and the workers won't have the resources or situation to avoid paying it.

Let me mention that since 2012 or 2013, Amazon had to report to the IRS their entire 3rd party marketplace that generations 20k revenue and above. People who used their platform as a yardsale or in home business have to pay taxes too, and then people like me not only have to pay taxes but I since pay it twice since my work model is buying and reselling stuff off the internet, which in the past I didnt pay tax but so many internet vendors now must charge tax. Plus, self-proprietors have to pay double the SS tax.

And on top of it all, I have to charge tax to my consumers so now the price of everything in my marketplace went up so I had to make up for that by being a slave for the government harder.

Anyways short vent, but just another way the government had significantly raised revenue through Amazon, Ebay, etc....

 

[ax1]

Good on you brother!!!
I wish I had that talent to just be able to sit and make things make sense.

I do t think I've ever written or typed anything that long in my life. You just did it in probably what 7 minutes?

Honestly, I couldn't even stay focused long enough to read it all. Just scanned through it

I read his stuff carefully most of the time (once in a blue moon Im just not around) its really mentally stimulating actually, so if you look at it like that you learn to get your attention up a little.

 

[BOSSMAN]

lol - I figure a lot of people don't read my stuff It's way too long.

I'm not sure it makes sense either.

And, I hate to say it, but some of these posts take me 20+ minutes to type. What happens is I sit down after being away and have to read and catch up, and I start seeing so many good things to discuss, and I just start putting the quotes in the list. Then, I may come back an hour later and start typing, stop, make a phone call...type some more...do some work...etc. and what started at 8 AM may get posted at 9:30 or 10 and I would estimate those really long posts take me 15-20 minutes at times, with some rare posts going beyond 20 even. It's kind of pathetic, but you guys are a great vent for me plus I get educated a lot from both sides here. I feel like over the past couple years I've become much more educated about world events and ironically this thread is a huge part of that. In real life, I try to keep most of these thoughts to myself because I'm in MA and surrounded by people who will get VERY upset with me. Most of the time they just get upset and don't want to talk about it and will storm off in a huff merely because I don't agree or have questions. I've had times where I really thought it would escalate and I had to diffuse the situation but that is rare.

Oh I read it my man, especially in the nutrition/lifting forums.

Smart cookie here fellas

 

[BOSSMAN]

I read his stuff carefully most of the time (once in a blue moon Im just not around) its really mentally stimulating actually, so if you look at it like that you learn to get your attention up a little.

Oh yeah, he is on point for sure. I just have a hard time reading for more than 1 minute without wanting to jump around.

 

[ax1]

What job is this for, and which state????

That slipped my mind to, $15 for someone with Masters degree is double the minumum wage and much higher purchasing power depending where you live.

 

[tyga tyga]

That slipped my mind to, $15 for someone with Masters degree is double the minumum wage and much higher purchasing power depending where you live.

Minimum wage here in Missouri is $8.60 - were considered a low cost of living state.

I would HATE to have a Masters and make $15/hr lol However, that’s when you start to look in other states and apply for positions that you believe is worth the credentials.

 

[HIT4ME]

You probably already responded to this with the few thesises you wrote this morning that Im still working on my coffee and going through, but if you want value the concept of hourly wage as a whole should be abolished....unless its a job where increased production is impossible, then maybe freemarket hourly is fine.

I get where you're coming from on this, but personally I find the concept fairly valuable. In all reality, our most limited commodity is time itself - so if I'm going to be using it up, I want to know how much I'm getting paid for it...so personally, even though I haven't been on a salary or hourly pay for almost 20 years I still use the concept a lot to determine which activities are the activities I should focus on.

Having said that, I agree that hourly pay is really the domain of lower-income workers. And I agree that the per hour production of such workers will usually be limited, because they are not being given an incentive to work faster. If my job is to show up for 8 hours today and make some widgets, however many widgets that might be, of course you are right to point out that I'm just going to show up and put in my 8 hours and probably produce 2-4 hours worth of actual work. Paying someone for their actual production would be much more efficient in a lot of cases.

And the hourly pay thing probably hurts both sides of the table. The employees make less because they aren't producing as much, and the employers don't get as much production per hour. But it works out pretty well for lazy people who like to just get by...

I read his stuff carefully most of the time (once in a blue moon Im just not around) its really mentally stimulating actually, so if you look at it like that you learn to get your attention up a little.

lol @ mentally stimulating. I am a ranting lunatic

Oh I read it my man, especially in the nutrition/lifting forums.

Smart cookie here fellas

I am flattered guys - you both give me too much credit. I've learned a lot from all of you guys on here and I think it's a pretty smart group of people and I'm not sure I'm saying anything that others haven't said too - I just say it in Old Entish.

Oh yeah, he is on point for sure. I just have a hard time reading for more than 1 minute without wanting to jump around.

I don't blame you.

 

[ax1]

New Georgia election fraud video

 

[dixonk]

 

[puccah8808]

Minimum wage here in Missouri is $8.60 - were considered a low cost of living state.

I would HATE to have a Masters and make $15/hr lol However, that’s when you start to look in other states and apply for positions that you believe is worth the credentials.

I’ve applied in Dubai!

 

[Ricky10]

New Georgia election fraud video

Ah yes, video footage representing nothing more than baseless claims

 

[thebigt]

View attachment 201203

actually the number is 20,000

 

[Jiigzz]

NZ has a $19/hr minumum wage and NZ sucks when it comes to fixing the issues with poverty, and its going up to $21/hr this year, and it still wont get nothing done.

27% of children are living in poverty. 1 in 5 children die every week from violence...in a strict gun country!

And you all still oppressing minorities. I know you acknowledge it but damn, you think having $19 minimum wage would fix things like magic???

------------------------------------
The Facts

borgenproject.org

One can define poverty in New Zealand as living in a household that makes 60% less than the average, taking housing costs into consideration. In New Zealand, massive economic restructuring beginning in the 1980s has resulted in prosperity for some, and poverty for others. In 1984, the national poverty rate was 9%. Comparatively, in 2016, the poverty rate was 15%. This represents a decrease from the peak poverty rate of 22% in 2004 but still remains significantly higher than before the mid-1980s, as a direct result of economic change including hard hits during the 2008 recession. Today, about one in seven households experience poverty, with one in five reporting that they do not have access to food or healthy food due to a lack of money according to The National Children’s Nutrition Survey. This means that around 290,000 children (or 27%) were living in poverty in 2017.

When people do not have access to financial and emotional resources, their health is more likely to suffer. New Zealand shows this as children experiencing poverty are more than twice as likely to visit the hospital than those who are not. They are also far more likely to experience health consequences like heart disease, obesity and addiction. These problems often follow children into adulthood, perpetuating the cycle of poverty.

Who is Most Affected?

There is an inequitable distribution of poverty in New Zealand, with Pacific Peoples and other indigenous groups like the Māori and Pakeha peoples experiencing higher levels of poverty than other people. A shocking 40% of Pacific Peoples have an income below the poverty line, with Māori coming in second with nearly one-third of their population experiencing poverty. Additionally, children are harder-hit than other groups. New Zealand has one of the highest rates of child abuse in the developed world.

According to UNICEF, a child dies every five weeks due to violence. Experiencing or seeing violence as a child can lead to negative long-term effects like drug-use, early pregnancy, anxiety and mental disorders and can compound the effects of poverty into adulthood. It is important to reduce childhood poverty rates because statistics have shown that where poverty rates drop, birthrates decrease as well.

Families that are living in poverty need to spend their time and energy on survival, and by necessity spend less time on things like education, emotional health and community. This creates a cycle of more people living in poverty, making the problem bigger over time. If more people come out of poverty now, fewer people will continue to live in poverty in the future. Preventing the inequitable effects of poverty on certain populations is vital in increasing the standard of living for many people and children across New Zealand, especially native populations.

Poverty in New Zealand - The Borgen Project

borgenproject.org

How many of the families living below the poverty line have an income that isn't govt based?

The living wage in Auckland is around $21 per hour. Our minimum wage is below the living wage, hence why it is being pushed to go up.

Govt support systems shouldn't be paying anybody a minimum wage. They should help directly with things like food and rent and ensuring people survive, but they are not obligated to actually pay a minimum wage

 

[thebigt]

Whut.

If people are paid enough to live, the logic is that they would rely less on govt assistance.

How does that not make sense?

you my man, are clueless how welfare works in this country...if you are able to qualify for government assistance working at current minimum wage and get disqualified for government assistance at $15 a hour your loss will be substantial....food stamps, housing and medicaid will be a much greater loss than the increase in pay will cover---much greater loss.

your logic is illogical

 

[Jiigzz]

I am no expert on economics either. I play one on the internet though, and I did recently have one of the greatest economic minds today call the evidence of voter fraud that I presented earlier in this thread, "Intriguing" and he told me I think like an economist, which was a compliment to me I guess?

But hey, there's no evidence. But, wait, shouldn't we listen to experts? I'm so confused.



So, I am against minimum wage - but not because I want poor people to suffer. Honestly, I think we focus too much on hand outs and not on how to actually give people a better situation. One thing I've learned over the past decade is that, in business, if you have money you will ALWAYS have a negotiating advantage over those who do NOT have. The number of times I (with no money) have made a deal with people with money, put in the work for an outcome and achieved it, only to have them turn around after the fact and find some way to reduce what they pay me is amazing. And since I need SOMETHING, I often have no real leverage to fight back. Can I scratch and claw my way out? Sure.

On the other hand I recently formed a partnership with one of he "haves" who is a truly good guy with integrity and we had a mutual benefit - we each brought something to the table - and having him in my corner has changed the entire game for me. So, bottom line, I get that it's easy to say "pull yourself up" and harder to do. And I get that having a hand-up is a blessing many never receive.

My issue with minimum wage is that, it has unintended negative consequences. It is essentially price fixing by labor buyers. It eliminates the free market for labor. My belief is that people should be paid what they are worth - and a free market is the best way to find the true value of anything. If I only have one buyer and no competition to buy, my price will be lower than if there are multiple buyers. And if all of the buyers know what the other buyers are spending, they have no incentive to compete - so multiple labor buyers with a fixed price is essentially the same as only having one person to go to for work.

As an analogy, if I go to McDs and ask for a job, they will offer me minimum wage. If I don't like it and go to their competitor, Burger King, well, what are they going to offer? Minimum wage. There will never be a discussion of, "Well, McD's will pay $13 what can you offer?"

On the other side, if you believe it will actually increase employee wages, it will be detrimental to smaller businesses - the very people who are trying to create something to pull themselves up. If I have some highly unskilled job to complete, and I now have to pay $4/hour more to accomplish it - that's a problem. Because it's not just $32/day more. It could be $320/day more very easily. Having sold a number of small businesses, many of these people are making $50-100K a year and they cannot absorb an additional $9,000/month in labor costs.

Ultimately, I think people should be paid for the value they actually deliver. If the value is very small, then their pay will be small. On the same hand, I think the benefit of a free working force is that you have people competing for your labor - and minimum wage eliminates that for the poorest and most vulnerable people. It traps them into a system where their compensation for their labor is no longer based on their actual production or value, it is based on the fact that they are "poor".

And lets be real here. The typical job, if we assume 40 hours/week for 50 weeks of the year, entails 2,000 hours of labor. At $19/hour that's $38,000/year. You could get by on that in many areas in the US - the areas without many jobs. But in the areas with many, many jobs - where the competition for labor will be highest - $38,000 won't barely pay your rent once you pay taxes on it. So you eliminate the competition in the areas with the greatest need for competition. That pay in Boston or worse - NYC or CA - is poverty level still. And regardless, NO ONE is raising themselves out of a dumpster with $38,000 in taxable income in the US. Let's be real. Especially if you need a Masters to earn it, as you point out. The payments on those loans will eat that up. For people in this situation, I highly recommend a protein sparing modified fast...if they can even afford that.






I am grouping the above 2 quotes together of course here - but you have just laid out the true incentive the gov't has for increasing minimum wage. It is a way to squeeze more taxes out of people like Amazon and all other business owners. Business owners pay taxes differently than individual people with low incomes. The wealthy can afford to pay the best accountants and find every loophole and pay fewer taxes. The ultra-wealthy can choose not to pay taxes at all, because they don't HAVE to make any money and if they choose not to have any additional income, they don't have anything to pay taxes on.

But those low-income workers...now...there is a tax base. We can say we are fighting for higher wages and get 20% for every dollar extra they earn! Ultimately it's just money coming from Amazon and the workers won't have the resources or situation to avoid paying it.

It's just another example of someone like Biden acting like he cares about people, but really just using them as a pawn for an ulterior motive.

But this gets back to term limits actually - because WHY does someone like Biden even really care about taxes so much? Because he is employed by the USA! He wants to improve the economic status of his employer, and thus increase his own power and job security. Sure, this may be him on his way out at this point, but he is going to have friends and people that he gains from this that will help his family tremendously long after he is gone. You may not agree with this cynicism and I get that, but that's how I see ALL politicians today with very, very few exceptions.

You do realise that Trumps tax plan wanted to increase taxes from this year onward, right?

 

[dixonk]

I’ve applied in Dubai!

Hope you like partying. That place is amazing.

 

[thebigt]

You do realise that Trumps tax plan wanted to increase taxes from this year onward, right?

logic dictates that taxes will HAVE to go up just to cover current debt...with the additional trillions biden plans to add to the debt taxes will HAVE to go up substantially more than what trump intended---use your head, man.

 

[Jiigzz]

you my man, are clueless how welfare works in this country...if you are able to qualify for government assistance working at current minimum wage and get disqualified for government assistance at $15 a hour your loss will be substantial....food stamps, housing and medicaid will be a much greater loss than the increase in pay will cover---much greater loss.

your logic is illogical

So to you the solution is to pay them less so they can rely on the govt more?

 

[thebigt]

Hope you like partying. That place is amazing.

there are more foreign born people living in dubai than any country on earth.

 

[thebigt]

So to you the solution is to pay them less so they can rely on the govt more?

my point was that increasing minimum wage will hurt the poor rather than help--try to keep up!!!

 

[ax1]

You do realise that Trumps tax plan wanted to increase taxes from this year onward, right?

Thebigt is right, even my own sister refuses to make too much and only works part time because then she would lose her welfare stamps, Obobophone and other free crap like "Government Boots"....yes Government Boots.

She has absolutely no incentive to ever, I mean ever work or make more....unless its a drastic increase making more really equates to getting less, and trust me Ive been around alot of people and welfare is generational.

 

[Jiigzz]

logic dictates that taxes will HAVE to go up just to cover current debt...with the additional trillions biden plans to add to the debt taxes will HAVE to go up substantially more than what trump intended---use your head, man.

No kidding. Did you read the post I quoted?

Because everyone got mad at Biden for wanting to raise taxes for people earning over 400k, but noone got mad at Trump for planning to raise taxes to above what they were before he got in office lol.

Where's the sense in that?

 

[Jiigzz]

So you'd much prefer people rely on the govt to make a living than for their employer to pay them a wage they can live on?

Ok.

 

[ax1]

So you'd much prefer people rely on the govt to make a living than for their employer to pay them a wage they can live on?

Ok.

Id prefer government to get as far the fuq away from our lives as possible.

 

[thebigt]

No kidding. Did you read the post I quoted?

Because everyone got mad at Biden for wanting to raise taxes for people earning over 400k, but noone got mad at Trump for planning to raise taxes to above what they were before he got in office lol.

Where's the sense in that?

you can't be that retarded...the wealthy will always find ways of getting around higher taxes like corporations did by using foreign accounts-trump got that money back here by lowering their taxes...look at how well it worked out for NYC with stupid policy of raising taxes on wealthy-they are simply leaving.

 

[Jiigzz]

Id prefer government to get as far the fuq away from our lives as possible.

Ok, so what would happen to the people who need food stamps if the govt stopped providing them who work in jobs below the poverty line?

 

[thebigt]

So you'd much prefer people rely on the govt to make a living than for their employer to pay them a wage they can live on?

Ok.

you can't be this retarded as to keep making the same illogical point....it isn't a living wage if they have to start paying for their housing, food and medical bills, they end up being far worse off than before-geez, man-get a clue!!!


i am for leaving things as they are, and not punishing EVERY American with higher prices!!!

 

[Jiigzz]

you can't be that retarded...the wealthy will always find ways of getting around higher taxes like corporations did by using foreign accounts-trump got that money back here by lowering their taxes...look at how well it worked out for NYC with stupid policy of raising taxes on wealthy-they are simply leaving.

People were getting mad at Biden for proposing a raise on taxes, period. Even though it applied to the 400k+ bracket, people have said repeatedly in this thread that any raise of tax is theft.

So why does that not apply to trumps tax plan which directly impacts low and middle class Americans?

People weren't mad because the rich tax would just keep being dodged, they were mad because he planned to raise tax at all!