Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

Donald Trump running for president

Gutterpump said:
The Russians ended the war. Plain and simple. Absolutely no-one quoted my post above about that, because it's inarguable, and simply, people in here don't know their history. Without that fight, the war would not have ended. It wasn't the bombs. That battle single-handedly decided the fate of the war. So none of this BS about how it (dropping nukes) needed to be done. Yes, 10's of thousands of troops died, but 100's of thousand of civilian deaths happened needlessly. It's simple math regarding which is better....
Click to expand...

after Germany surrenders we just pack up and go home, right?
 
hairygrandpa said:
Please don't be offended, I'm just pointing out a logical fallacy here:
Statement:
We would have needed 500.000 soldiers for an invasion, the bomb saved the lives of 500.000 soldiers.
Rebutal :
We would have needed 3 million American children for an invasion, the bomb would have saved the lives of 3 million children.

No soldier -nor American child was at risk, if an invasion were not considered.
Click to expand...

This is not true though, sorry. No one would consider sending 3M children into battle, but in order to consider an alternative to dropping the bomb, you have to consider what the cost would be. The cost would never be 3 M children. The cost was estimated to be 500,000 American lives, which would have been at risk, and could have all been lost. And the fact of the matter is, if we killed 400,000 Japanese and they killed 500,000 americans, it would be bloody but no one would have ended a war for that. The Japanese would have thought they won. But if we kill 200,000 Japanese without losing a single American life....that sends a signal that hey, maybe you can't win this if they can create losses like that.

Gutterpump said:
The Russians ended the war. Plain and simple. Absolutely no-one quoted my post above about that, because it's inarguable, and simply, people in here don't know their history. Without that fight, the war would not have ended. It wasn't the bombs. That battle single-handedly decided the fate of the war. So none of this BS about how it (dropping nukes) needed to be done. Yes, 10's of thousands of troops died, but 100's of thousand of civilian deaths happened needlessly. It's simple math regarding which is better....
Click to expand...

Even if we are to believe this (which I did question you on) - there's no saying that the combination of their success and the bomb isn't what ended the war.
 
HIT4ME said:
This is not true though, sorry. No one would consider sending 3M children into battle, but in order to consider an alternative to dropping the bomb, you have to consider what the cost would be. The cost would never be 3 M children. The cost was estimated to be 500,000 American lives, which would have been at risk, and could have all been lost. And the fact of the matter is, if we killed 400,000 Japanese and they killed 500,000 americans, it would be bloody but no one would have ended a war for that. The Japanese would have thought they won. But if we kill 200,000 Japanese without losing a single American life....that sends a signal that hey, maybe you can't win this if they can create losses like that.



Even if we are to believe this (which I did question you on) - there's no saying that the combination of their success and the bomb isn't what ended the war.
Click to expand...

You are making the same mistake, IMHO.

Invasion considered with 500.000 soldier -or 6 million dogs- or 3 million children = lots of life lost = nukem = sh1tload of children,dogs and soldiers saved.

No invasion considered = no invader dead = no justification for the bomb.
 
HIT4ME said:
Even if we are to believe this (which I did question you on) - there's no saying that the combination of their success and the bomb isn't what ended the war.
Click to expand...

If the Russians could take on a force like the Germans, and win, the allied forces could have collectively taken on a force like Japan without dropping any nukes. I'm not stating an invasion wouldn't have been necessary, nor that civilian lives wouldn't have been lost, but the outcome would've been much better. Hindsight is 50/50.... which is why I question the morality (and intelligence) of people in this thread. IMO there is too much pride and American egotism at play here.
 
Gutterpump said:
If the Russians could take on a force like the Germans, and win, the allied forces could have collectively taken on a force like Japan without dropping any nukes. I'm not stating an invasion wouldn't have been necessary, nor that civilian lives wouldn't have been lost, but the outcome would've been much better. Hindsight is 50/50.... which is why I question the morality (and intelligence) of much of the people in this thread.
Click to expand...

IMHO no invasion was needed. Because of existing sea blockade and famine.
 
Gutterpump said:
You're brilliant aren't you. I said it decided the fate of the war, I didn't say it ended right then and there did I?
Click to expand...

tell hat to the fillipinos...they were still occupied by Japanese forces until japan surrendered. ever hear of the bataan death march?
 
Gutterpump said:
Even better. I'm not as knowledgeable on Japan as I am on Russia/Germany. But if that's the case, an even better outcome. Japan stood no chance against the allies after Germany was defeated.
Click to expand...

People like to overlook what sea blockage and, especially famine means to an Island.
The Japanese were NOT able to attack USA anymore, their fleet was already at the bottom of the sea.
 
hairygrandpa said:
People like to overlook what sea blockage and, especially famine means to an Island.
The Japanese were NOT able to attack USA anymore, their fleet was already at the bottom of the sea.
Click to expand...

But America had to live by their motto "kill em all, let God sort em out". Oh wait, that was a movie hehe
 
hairygrandpa said:
People like to overlook what sea blockage and, especially famine means to an Island.
The Japanese were NOT able to attack USA anymore, their fleet was already at the bottom of the sea.
Click to expand...

I highly question that number too, that can easily just be propaganda to justify and gain acceptance from both the troops and the general public for a new science project. Now, Im the one saying the US didnt need to send a single American soldier into Japan to beat them, but really if you did go for that 500,000 is astronomically blown out of proportion imo.

Hirohito had a wonderful life after WWII, just throwing that out there.
 
hairygrandpa said:
People like to overlook what sea blockage and, especially famine means to an Island.
The Japanese were NOT able to attack USA anymore, their fleet was already at the bottom of the sea.
Click to expand...

I just took a look at the territories japan occupied until their surrender, the list might surprise you, I know it did me...the total population of the countries under Japanese occupation until they surrendered was 463,677,000.
 
thebigt said:
I just took a look at the territories japan occupied until their surrender, the list might surprise you, I know it did me...the total population of the countries under Japanese occupation until they surrendered was 463,677,000.
Click to expand...

Probably the coast of China in that number, its alot of people. Its really amazing what that little island pulled off.

Id be going straight after the central government and subdue them.
 
The Germans also committed grand-scale war crimes, yet I love the country and almost moved there a few years back. Wonderful place with a great culture.
 
ax1 said:
I highly question that number too, that can easily just be propaganda to justify and gain acceptance from both the troops and the general public. a new science project. Now, Im the one saying the US didnt need to send a single American soldier into Japan to beat them, but really peven if you did 500,000 is astronomically blown out of proportion imo.

Hirohito had a wonderful life after WWII, just throwing that out there.
Click to expand...


You could also say:
We would have to use 7 million fat women, jumping out of planes, smashing Japanese soldiers to win.
After the nukes:
We saved magically 7 million fat women lives with our nukes.

It's not about numbers. The used tactic to justify a nuke is malicious and void. You can put any scenario here involving lives that aren't even at risk.
 
Gutterpump said:
I hate that in the 1940's, the US committed war crimes on a grand scale, and I also hate that a large number of turds in here also support that. I didn't say I don't love this country Big Turd.
Click to expand...

the history of this country IS this country...love it or leave it!!!
 
Gutterpump said:
The Germans also committed grand-scale war crimes, yet I love the country and almost moved there a few years back. Wonderful place with a great culture.
Click to expand...

and yet here you are...why did you leave Canada in the 1st place?
 
ax1 said:
Probably the coast of China in that number, its alot of people. Its really amazing what that little island pulled off.

Id be going straight after the central government and subdue them.
Click to expand...

463,677,00 people were under Japanese occupation at the time of surrender. I bet they were glad we ended the war...wanna bet?
 
thebigt said:
the history of this country IS this country...love it or leave it!!!
Click to expand...

There is a drastic difference between loving your country and loving your government. You dont have to love your government to love your country.
 
thebigt said:
I just took a look at the territories japan occupied until their surrender, the list might surprise you, I know it did me...the total population of the countries under Japanese occupation until they surrendered was 463,677,000.
Click to expand...

I did not know that. Mostly Islands in Southeast Asia, I guess.
But i can't imagine an huge army of coconut-throwers attacking US destroyers and submarines.
 
thebigt said:
and yet here you are...why did you leave Canada in the 1st place?
Click to expand...

I had a bunch of friends in NYC, and wanted to live and experience somewhere new, and had the opportunity to do so. I love Canada and the US, and I love the history each country shares.
 
thebigt said:
463,677,00 people were under Japanese occupation at the time of surrender. I bet they were glad we ended the war...wanna bet?
Click to expand...

Well yeah sure they are glad, but we cant be the worlds policemen and lose our people. We hugged it out with China after they already lost 70 million plus people, I think those 70 million people would have been glad too if we nuked Beijing and ended that government, but we didnt.
 
thebigt said:
463,677,00 people were under Japanese occupation at the time of surrender. I bet they were glad we ended the war...wanna bet?
Click to expand...

Point for thebigt. Yes.
The question is, had Japan surrendered later on, without nuke, would occupied countries be freed? We don't know.
 
Matthandyo said:
Slavery is the US sucked and I hate that we had it here, should I move because of that?
Click to expand...

that is your decision...but remember a whole lot of whites died so that slaves could be free.

I absolutely don't agree with everything this country has done or is doing, but this is my country and just like my children I still love them when they do things I don't agree with.
 
thebigt said:
that is your decision...but remember a whole lot of whites died so that slaves could be free.

I absolutely don't agree with everything this country has done or is doing, but this is my country and just like my children I still love them when they do things I don't agree with.
Click to expand...

You said our history makes us and if we don't like things that have happened and that we've done we should leave.


So you would support the idea of slavery here in America?
 
hairygrandpa said:
Point for thebigt. Yes.
The question is, had Japan surrendered later on, without nuke, would occupied countries be freed? We don't know.
Click to expand...

the question is...if we had not dropped the bombs and had not invaded japan how many of those 463,777,00 people would have died?
 
I hear a lot of national pride here.
If someone asks you, where do you from?
Wouldn't be: "Planet Earth" be a better answer?
 
Matthandyo said:
You said our history makes us and if we don't like things that have happened and that we've done we should leave.


So you would support the idea of slavery here in America?
Click to expand...
ok, you got me...gutterpump got me pissed and I sometimes say things without thinking them through.

nice catch 22, there is no way out of it, I applaud you!!!:bigok:
 
thebigt said:
the question is...if we had not dropped the bombs and had not invaded japan how many of those 463,777,00 people would have died?
Click to expand...

The real question is, why don't you move to East Germany Mr Big Turd? Perhaps you can find some fellow hardcore nationalists there to circle jerk with?
 
Gutterpump said:
The real question is, why don't you move to East Germany Mr Big Turd? Perhaps you can find some fellow hardcore nationalists there to circle jerk with?
Click to expand...



ok...I am going to stop now I am starting to let my feelings get in the way of my rational thinking.

have a nice day!!!
 
thebigt said:
the question is...if we had not dropped the bombs and had not invaded japan how many of those 463,777,00 people would have died?
Click to expand...

No idea, nobody knows. Invasion/Occupation does not necessarily mean dead for the population. They were already occupied and alive.
 
thebigt said:
ok...I am going to stop now I am starting to let my feelings get in the way of my rational thinking.

have a nice day!!!
Click to expand...

I don't see how anyone who tries to justify the murder of 100's of thousands of innocent civilians, including women and children, can have feelings?
 
thebigt said:
the question is...if we had not dropped the bombs and had not invaded japan how many of those 463,777,00 people would have died?
Click to expand...

Not much because they weren't interested in that they primarily wanted control. In China many people carried on their daily lives and business. It was bad, but it's not like they will killing every civilian.
 
Gutterpump said:
I don't see how anyone who tries to justify the murder of 100's of thousands of innocent civilians, including women and children, can have feelings?
Click to expand...

You have the temper of my ex-wife, LOL
Please, personal attacks are in no way useful to share opinions or to make others revise their beliefs.
If you search the net about the "justified- or not", nuke discussion, you will find that apparently half of Americans are in favor.
That would make 50% of US population nazis.
 
Have you guys seen the movie Trinity and Beyond? I saw it back in the mid 2,000 when I first got a HD TV and this HD channel (displayed eye catching movies/shows) aired it.

The movie is crazy good, crazy sad but crazy good shows the history of nuclear weapons.

I highly recommend it, I think I should watch it again soon been a long time.
 
hairygrandpa said:
You are making the same mistake, IMHO.

Invasion considered with 500.000 soldier -or 6 million dogs- or 3 million children = lots of life lost = nukem = sh1tload of children,dogs and soldiers saved.

No invasion considered = no invader dead = no justification for the bomb.
Click to expand...

hairygrandpa said:
IMHO no invasion was needed. Because of existing sea blockade and famine.
Click to expand...

Ok, I see what you're saying now. Only it's a bit of a fantasy to think "we could have done nothing and it would have all turned out fine". That is kind of what got everyone in that mess to begin with.

I am all for economic sanctions to create change instead of guns - which is part of what I wrote earlier - but whether or not it was working is the question and was it working fast enough? Clearly, the US leadership believed SOME action had to be taken and was willing to take the PR hit to avoid risking American lives. That in itself should say something. We aren't talking about something they did and then covered up. It was pretty open, overt and then we did some damage control with the rebuilding process.

It's not like there was any upside to bombing the Japanese beyond ending a war - unless you want to say it was just payback for Pearl Harbor. Which, again, I guess that sends a message....a message the US no longer sends and should be. But we'd rather have pirates attack our ships for the first time in 100 years than be seen as a sleeping giant.
 
hairygrandpa said:
You have the temper of my ex-wife, LOL
Please, personal attacks are in no way useful to share opinions or to make others revise their beliefs.
If you search the net about the "justified- or not", nuke discussion, you will find that apparently half of Americans are in favor.
That would make 50% of US population nazis.
Click to expand...

Half of Americans also support trump While the rest of the world despise him. I'm not afraid of being honest, half of Americans are illiterate, racist a$$holes with a $hit ton of pride who are full of themselves. Lots of backwards people here.That's why I stick to the big cities for the most part, even though I'm from the country.

On the other hand, there's $hitty people everywhere, and plenty of great people here too.
 
Gutterpump said:
I don't see how anyone who tries to justify the murder of 100's of thousands of innocent civilians, including women and children, can have feelings?
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I applaud your sympathy for these civilians. But no one is "justifying" - life doesn't always have a good outcome. Sometimes you have to pick a hard road with horrible consequences. You should be blaming the people who started the war, not the people who ended it. You are basically saying an unlimited number of military soldiers should die to preserve one civilian, and that is just narrow minded. Just because someone is in the military doesn't make their life worthless. They may be willing, but they aren't necessarily chomping at the bit to be killed. And you have to keep in mind we were fighting an enemy that was killing its own civilians too - and we stopped that. It isn't good or justified, it was just the right choice.

What you are ultimately doing is making a good case for why America SHOULD interfere with other countries. Because a country IS its citizens, and if a country is doing wrong, its citizens should stop it or pay the price along with the country they love. The Americans did it, and we should help others do it. The Japanese chose to take the course they did, and they put their civilians in grave danger. It's unfortunate. It sucks. I feel really bad for them. But I'm glad we didn't waste American lives either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top