Unanswered Does no one have issues with companies copying formulas?

mechka_grizli

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I will not name the brand and if someone else wants to, that's fine but there has been a supplement being teased from months now and the first few ingredients were released recently and 3 of the 4 released ingredients are a copy of a natural anabolic that's popular on this forum. Yet no one has even brought it up. Even saw in their thread people saying they were excited about the new product but have said in the past they didnt get anything from the ingredients in the current product. It bothers me that no one has even thought to say hey, this company put this out here and it worked so well, that we decided to include it in our formula, instead of acting like the ingredients weren't made popular in another product. Give credit where it is do, especially if you are going to basically copy the doses except for 2x one of em.
 

Garyboy

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Anabolic Effect AKA Vector 2.0, I’m assuming. It is a spicy meatball.
 
Par Deus

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Sincerest form of flattery and whatnot.

The really bad thing is when they copy your **** from 15 years ago and don't actually know what they are doing and do it wrong but then claim it is the best.
 
Raw Dog

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If you do read through the whole thread it gives it a bit more context in terms of where the idea originated, I believe SNS/CEL on this one. Also these are not novel ingredients in vector and many of the studies are much older than that product. I believe it is healthy competition
 
Aleksandar37

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If you do read through the whole thread it gives it a bit more context in terms of where the idea originated, I believe SNS/CEL on this one. Also these are not novel ingredients in vector and many of the studies are much older than that product. I believe it is healthy competition
Yeah, I think in this case they explained themselves. It's an issue though in any business.
 
DEVANS89

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They even stated that they had a product similar to this years ago that they they went through with..

Don’t see the issue, OL also used Korean Mistletoe in a product but you haven’t mentioned that..

What next moaning that companies are using the same screw on lids..?!


It’s good to have variety, the product hasn’t been fully released yet, and it may contain ingredients that some prefer over vectors and vice versa
 
mechka_grizli

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If you do read through the whole thread it gives it a bit more context in terms of where the idea originated, I believe SNS/CEL on this one. Also these are not novel ingredients in vector and many of the studies are much older than that product. I believe it is healthy competition
No one said the ingredients are novel or that no studies existed but lets be honest here, how many supps was using even one of those ingredients before Vector? Same thing when BLR released OG Folli, epi was not mass marketed. They reformulate it and include more and then those ingredients start popping up also. I dont care or mind if people use ingredients, its inevitable but I dislike when companies act like they came up with this combo when in fact its stolen from someone else. Just give credit where its do.
They even stated that they had a product similar to this years ago that they they went through with..

Don’t see the issue, OL also used Korean Mistletoe in a product but you haven’t mentioned that..

What next moaning that companies are using the same screw on lids..?!


It’s good to have variety, the product hasn’t been fully released yet, and it may contain ingredients that some prefer over vectors and vice versa
The OL thing has been beaten to death countless times. No reason go bring them up.

To say hey we had a product years ago but decided not to release it but now we are using the same doses of the 3 from a competitor seems sketchy. Don't care who the company is. Healthy competition is fine and good for us consumers but don't throw that BS out there man.
 
NoAddedHmones

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They even stated that they had a product similar to this years ago that they they went through with..

Don’t see the issue, OL also used Korean Mistletoe in a product but you haven’t mentioned that..

What next moaning that companies are using the same screw on lids..?!


It’s good to have variety, the product hasn’t been fully released yet, and it may contain ingredients that some prefer over vectors and vice versa
We announced we were using korean mistletoe months before Vector came out, even before BLR said it was in their product, to be fair.
 
DEVANS89

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We announced we were using korean mistletoe months before Vector came out, even before BLR said it was in their product, to be fair.
I really don’t get the issue, it’s good to have a variety of products to choose from, and pushes companies to release even better products.

Know body moaned when OL released Re1gn with vaso6 and then everyone brought a product to the market with vaso6 in...
 
DaeshDontSurf

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No one said the ingredients are novel or that no studies existed but lets be honest here, how many supps was using even one of those ingredients before Vector? Same thing when BLR released OG Folli, epi was not mass marketed. They reformulate it and include more and then those ingredients start popping up also. I dont care or mind if people use ingredients, its inevitable but I dislike when companies act like they came up with this combo when in fact its stolen from someone else. Just give credit where its do. The OL thing has been beaten to death countless times. No reason go bring them up.

To say hey we had a product years ago but decided not to release it but now we are using the same doses of the 3 from a competitor seems sketchy. Don't care who the company is. Healthy competition is fine and good for us consumers but don't throw that BS out there man.
without being god, can not obviously say *every single supplement* not original (but maybe!) - but i say most idea come from contract mfg or company person scouring pubmed and related databases with terms like "anabolic", "strength", "muscle", "testosterone", "fat loss", etc... then they see if ingredient available and what cost. if make sense (profit margin), they throw in capsule. dosing *should* be what was used in study they base purchase on. hopefully at HED if not human, lol - but will use as little as will sell to make most money. epi come from Nestle if i correct in thinking - "squeeze old man! squeeze!" hahahaha
 
aaronuconn

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This thread is a joke. OP failed to read through the thread. Here is a message from the thread that the owner of SNS/CEL wrote preemptively as he assumed someone may bring this up.

This was corroborated by a former SNS formulator.

“In 2015, there was a product draft that that we were working on that had Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix in it. I had discussed it with several people at the time and a couple of contract manufacturers knew about it as well. We didn't move forward with the project at that time because a couple of the other ingredients that we wanted to use in it we couldn't source an extract that we were happy with at a reasonable price at that time. This was long before anyone was even thinking about KME. When we didn't move forward with it, did any of the people that knew about it say anything to BLR about them? No idea. Do I care? No, not at all. Why? Because they are great ingredients and I was glad that they offered them to people to use. Does that mean that we were never going to use them just because they did? Of course not. The industry would never evolve if that were the case; plus we put a lot of time back then into these ingredients; we were just looking for the perfect formulas to use them in. Note: I seriously doubt that anyone did tell BLR that we were looking into these back then, I think he just realized like we did that they are great ingredients. BUT even if they did, he was well within his rights to use them and I never said a word. (And I told one of the people that was upset about it that I had collaborated with on it to never publicly mention it bc it didn't matter, they were well within their rights to use them).

I'm not upset at the poster here at all, but I had already addressed this nicely in a long detailed post before that of course in a 7 ingredient product there are going to be overlaps with other products. I do realize he may have been joking which is why sometimes the internet can suck because context and tone don't come across sometimes.

This is my second and likely last time addressing product comparisons though. If this thread continues with anymore veiled insults or things that may be veiled insults, then there will be no more information revealed until the product is released.”
 
soxbsbll05

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LMAO. So every pre workout that contains Citrulline or BA is copying now?

Is every product supposed to be 100% different from each other?

To answer your question, no it doesn’t bother me whatsoever. Supplement companies need the competition to stop them from getting lazy and to continue putting out innovative products.

Oh, and the dosage of the KME in Anabolic Effect is 2g compared to the 1g in Vector.
 
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ValiantThor08

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Competing breeds innovation. Price wars. Etc. If Brundel started to formulate a Vector 2.0, that would be smart in light of other companies releasing their natty anabolics. BLR has a new natty anabolic in development now though.
 
Par Deus

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I'm not upset at the poster here at all, but I had already addressed this nicely in a long detailed post before that of course in a 7 ingredient product there are going to be overlaps with other products. I do realize he may have been joking which is why sometimes the internet can suck because context and tone don't come across sometimes.
A bunch of ingredients mentioned in the threads here are in my "potential ingredients" lists. My potential ingredients have length and girth.

Substantially so.

Let's all be glad that they don't scream and run away when they see it.
 
aaronuconn

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A bunch of ingredients mentioned in the threads here are in my "potential ingredients" lists. My potential ingredients have length and girth.

Substantially so.

Let's all be glad that they don't scream and run away when they see it.
Unless you go discover Atlantis and pry a magical plant from Plato’s hands and extract it for the most ergogenic actives, people will call you a copycat.
 

Rockslide

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Who cares. It’s a compliment for BLR. Competition makes it better for the consumer in regards to price and innovation.

I ran Vector, it was a nice endurance booster, appetite stimulant, and had a very nice pump GDA effect. I will try the CEL product at some point and compare them.

I also doubt they are using identical extract or suppliers . One will likely be a little better or worse than the other. Buy them both, try them both... again this fuels the industry.
 
Jiigzz

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This thread is a weird callout. I wasnt aware that companies couldn't utilise the same ingredients for similar goal orientated products. That's like saying any company that utilises caffeine, beta alanine and citrulline are all copying each other.

This product is much more than just the ingredients it shares. It might pay to wait to see what other ingredients it includes before calling it a clone
 

Rockslide

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Unless you own rights to an ingredient it’s fair game. OP should be glad one of the giant companies with a huge marketing budget doesn’t put the ingredients out in micro doses in a proprietary bled with some creatine nitrate or some other cheaper ingredient that may cause some sort of mild benefit, then proceed to charge 89 bucks a month while telling the world it works better than aas.

That is how ingredients get bad reps.
 
Par Deus

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Unless you go discover Atlantis and pry a magical plant from Plato’s hands and extract it for the most ergogenic actives, people will call you a copycat.
I kinda did.

But, yeah, the "pub" part of pubmed is public.
 
Par Deus

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This thread is a weird callout. I wasnt aware that companies couldn't utilise the same ingredients for similar goal orientated products. That's like saying any company that utilises caffeine, beta alanine and citrulline are all copying each other.

This product is much more than just the ingredients it shares. It might pay to wait to see what other ingredients it includes before calling it a clone
Old school real fights are not allowed here, so dudes being all passive aggressive like suburban chicks in the HOA comity.

 
Jiigzz

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Old school real fights are not allowed here, so dudes being all passive aggressive like suburban chicks in the HOA comity.

Haha, it just seems bizarre to me that for some product types copying ingredients is almost a given, but for others it is taboo and wrong. Meh
 
stopstalking

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This thread is a weird callout. I wasnt aware that companies couldn't utilise the same ingredients for similar goal orientated products. That's like saying any company that utilises caffeine, beta alanine and citrulline are all copying each other.

This product is much more than just the ingredients it shares. It might pay to wait to see what other ingredients it includes before calling it a clone

Exactly my thinking.
 

BlockBuilder

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Doesn’t anabolic effect have 7 ingredients also? They’ve only listed a few. No matter what companies are going to overlap in ingredients being used. I love CEL and It’s fair game in the industry. HOWEVER, I do find it comical that some of the same people who hate vector are getting so excited when they see the exact same ingredients listed on CELs product.
 
mechka_grizli

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This thread is a joke. OP failed to read through the thread. Here is a message from the thread that the owner of SNS/CEL wrote preemptively as he assumed someone may bring this up.

This was corroborated by a former SNS formulator.

“In 2015, there was a product draft that that we were working on that had Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix in it. I had discussed it with several people at the time and a couple of contract manufacturers knew about it as well. We didn't move forward with the project at that time because a couple of the other ingredients that we wanted to use in it we couldn't source an extract that we were happy with at a reasonable price at that time. This was long before anyone was even thinking about KME. When we didn't move forward with it, did any of the people that knew about it say anything to BLR about them? No idea. Do I care? No, not at all. Why? Because they are great ingredients and I was glad that they offered them to people to use. Does that mean that we were never going to use them just because they did? Of course not. The industry would never evolve if that were the case; plus we put a lot of time back then into these ingredients; we were just looking for the perfect formulas to use them in. Note: I seriously doubt that anyone did tell BLR that we were looking into these back then, I think he just realized like we did that they are great ingredients. BUT even if they did, he was well within his rights to use them and I never said a word. (And I told one of the people that was upset about it that I had collaborated with on it to never publicly mention it bc it didn't matter, they were well within their rights to use them).

I'm not upset at the poster here at all, but I had already addressed this nicely in a long detailed post before that of course in a 7 ingredient product there are going to be overlaps with other products. I do realize he may have been joking which is why sometimes the internet can suck because context and tone don't come across sometimes.

This is my second and likely last time addressing product comparisons though. If this thread continues with anymore veiled insults or things that may be veiled insults, then there will be no more information revealed until the product is released.”
Read through every comment in the thread. And no it wasn't preemptively, as he only brought it up after someone else commented
Haha, it just seems bizarre to me that for some product types copying ingredients is almost a given, but for others it is taboo and wrong. Meh
Its not bizarre when 3 ingredients never used before together appear together in another product. Its not caffeine and BA.
Doesn’t anabolic effect have 7 ingredients also? They’ve only listed a few. No matter what companies are going to overlap in ingredients being used. I love CEL and It’s fair game in the industry. HOWEVER, I do find it comical that some of the same people who hate vector are getting so excited when they see the exact same ingredients listed on CELs product.
This also is what driving the thread. A FWUCK ton of people who claim Vector either did not work or said the formula was nothing special sure are coming in strong about how awesome this product is going to be.

At the end of the day, you can call the thread a joke or a weird call out but if anyone here produced something whether it a supplement, a paper, or food, then added to it, and the market acted like the inspiration wasn't drawn from a source then you would be upset if it was your source material it was drawn from. Love SNS and use a crap ton of their products. The issue isnt with the company and them using the ingredients, its in acting as if the inspiration didnt come from somewhere else.
 
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mechka_grizli

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LMAO. So every pre workout that contains Citrulline or BA is copying now?

Is every product supposed to be 100% different from each other?

To answer your question, no it doesn’t bother me whatsoever. Supplement companies need the competition to stop them from getting lazy and to continue putting out innovative products.

Oh, and the dosage of the KME in Anabolic Effect is 2g compared to the 1g in Vector.
Vector also uses a 100:1 extract
I really don’t get the issue, it’s good to have a variety of products to choose from, and pushes companies to release even better products.

Know body moaned when OL released Re1gn with vaso6 and then everyone brought a product to the market with vaso6 in...
While your statement is fair, the comparison isn't. Using vaso 6 isnt the same as using 3 extracts never used together before and saying well we thought of it 5 years ago so its not the same thing.
 
aaronuconn

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Read through every comment in the thread. And no it wasn't preemptively, as he only brought it up after someone else commentedIts not bizarre when 3 ingredients never used before together appear together in another product. Its not caffeine and BA. This also is what driving the thread. A FWUCK ton of people who claim Vector either did not work or said the formula was nothing special sure are coming in strong about how awesome this product is going to be.

At the end of the day, you can call the thread a joke or a weird call out but if anyone here produced something whether it a supplement, a paper, or food, then added to it, and the market acted like the inspiration wasn't drawn from a source then you would be upset if it was your source material it was drawn from. Love SNS and use a crap ton of their products. The issue isnt with the company and them using the ingredients, its in acting as if the inspiration didnt come from somewhere else.
But the inspiration for using those ingredients didn’t come from somewhere else.

SNS had been toying with using those ingredient since ~2014, well before a similar product hit the market. This was corroborated by a former formulator for SNS
 
mbonheur

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Hope SNS is using standardized extracts and not some 100:1 or whatever as you can find in Vector.
 
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sns8778

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This is the first of 4 posts.
In this post and the next post, I'm going to reply to everyone else in the thread besides the OP.
In post 3, I'll be replying to the OP's posts.
In post 4, I'm going to elaborate more on some specific things in general.

Anabolic Effect AKA Vector 2.0, I’m assuming. It is a spicy meatball.
I know that you don't mean anything bad by the comparison at all, but I have and do ask that people not call Anabolic Effect Vector 2.0 because it's disrespectful to both Anabolic Effect and to Vector. And I do realize in the context of your post here, you were just identifying what the OP was talking about; I'm posting this as much to anyone else reading as to you.

Anabolic Effect and Vector have some ingredient overlap but are very, very different products.

Anabolic Effect Highlights:
- 7 High End Active Ingredients
- 4 Licensed Branded Ingredients
- Clinically Researched Key Ingredients

Yes, Vector and Anabolic Effect have Korean Mistletoe Extract but at different dosages (Anabolic Effect has 2,000 mg.). And yes, Anabolic Effect and Vector both have Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix; but Anabolic Effect also has 4 additional ingredients in it.

Sincerest form of flattery and whatnot.

The really bad thing is when they copy your **** from 15 years ago and don't actually know what they are doing and do it wrong but then claim it is the best.
For anyone reading, I want to clarify that Par is talking about other companies, not SNS/CEL. He is talking about other companies that have taken some of his past ideas.

If I wanted to be a trouble maker, I would ask him to elaborate haha. But I'm trying to keep my diet clean and I fear that I would need a big tub of popcorn if that were to happen haha. :ROFLMAO:

If you do read through the whole thread it gives it a bit more context in terms of where the idea originated, I believe SNS/CEL on this one. Also these are not novel ingredients in vector and many of the studies are much older than that product. I believe it is healthy competition
Thank you. And absolutely, context is everything.
Anabolic Effect has 7 active ingredients and only 4 have been confirmed.
And you are absolutely correct, the studies on EJ and RR are older than the products in question. And for reference, these ingredients had been on raw material supplier lists since at least 2014 so no one actually 'found' them. They were already being offered; it was a matter of people researching them and seeing if they had merit. As stated in the Anabolic Effect thread, we had looked at them as early as 2014.

Nonsense, vector is fantastic. Anabolic effect isn’t original at all, but will I try it? Yes.
Actually, I think you will find Anabolic Effect to be very original when you see the rest of the ingredients for many reasons, a big one of which is that the 4 licensed branded ingredients have never been used in a formula together before; heck, I don't even think more than 2 of them have ever been used in a formula together before!

Yeah, I think in this case they explained themselves. It's an issue though in any business.
Thank you. I went out of my way to explain that the idea for the 2 ingredients had nothing to do with BLR. I think I offered a level of transparency and explanation far beyond what most companies would provide. And at first, I was vague when I mentioned why I actually did get the idea from because I didn't know if the person minded me mentioning them. Later, Synapsin came into the thread and said himself that me and him had discussed using Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix in a product as far back as 2014 and it made it as far as having a name and the quoting stage but then stalled out because of not being able to the proper standardizations at a reasonable price of other ingredients that were part of the formula at that time.

They even stated that they had a product similar to this years ago that they they went through with..

Don’t see the issue, OL also used Korean Mistletoe in a product but you haven’t mentioned that..

What next moaning that companies are using the same screw on lids..?!

It’s good to have variety, the product hasn’t been fully released yet, and it may contain ingredients that some prefer over vectors and vice versa
OL was the first company I ever saw publicly mention KME.

The crazy part of this thread to me is that a product with 7 ingredients is being compared to a product with 3; and the dosages of 1 of the 3 that overlap is completely different.

LMAO. So every pre workout that contains Citrulline or BA is copying now?

Is every product supposed to be 100% different from each other?

To answer your question, no it doesn’t bother me whatsoever. Supplement companies need the competition to stop them from getting lazy and to continue putting out innovative products.

Oh, and the dosage of the KME in Anabolic Effect is 2g compared to the 1g in Vector.
I think the average person wants a product that works; not just a product that uses new ingredients. Sure new ingredients create buzz and hype and excitement, but ever notice what happens when a company brings out a new ingredient and it doesn't live up to expectations? Many people feel ripped off and betrayed. CEL isn't there to treat customers wallets like an experiment; CEL is there to deliver hardcore products that work.

Who cares. It’s a compliment for BLR. Competition makes it better for the consumer in regards to price and innovation.

I ran Vector, it was a nice endurance booster, appetite stimulant, and had a very nice pump GDA effect. I will try the CEL product at some point and compare them.

I also doubt they are using identical extract or suppliers . One will likely be a little better or worse than the other. Buy them both, try them both... again this fuels the industry.
The intention wasn't to make it a compliment to BLR nor a slight against or competitor to BLR. I know that some SNS reps in the past used to have issues with BLR but I have no issue with them and wish them nothing but luck and the best. In the other thread when people started comparing the products, I respectfully asked that people stop because I didn't want BLR to feel like they were being attacked or put down in any way.

The idea for Anabolic Effect got started when people kept asking us to do a Korean Mistletoe product. The 4 branded ingredients got added first; the Eriobotrya and Rehmannaie got added last and were added as a result of going back through old formulation ideas and notes. Synapsin confirmed that we had discussed those ideas as far back as 2014 for anyone that didn't take my word for that.

This thread is a weird callout. I wasnt aware that companies couldn't utilise the same ingredients for similar goal orientated products. That's like saying any company that utilises caffeine, beta alanine and citrulline are all copying each other.

This product is much more than just the ingredients it shares. It might pay to wait to see what other ingredients it includes before calling it a clone
That's my thought as well - it's like pre-complaining without waiting to see the other ingredients. The formula is very unique and there is nothing else like it.

And the funny thing here is people talking about complaining about companies copying or using ingredients from others formulas. Hummm...... what about:
- Basically ever nootropic drink that took the major elements from the original Focus XT.
- Every company and their grandmother copied elements of Cycle Assist at one time.
- If I'm not mistaken, BLR made a transdermal formestane (CEL had one for years) (if I'm remembering wrong, please excuse me) - and I never once thought bad of them or cared that they did.

I don't think you can find one instance of me ever complaining or even mentioning any of that.
 
sns8778

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Doesn’t anabolic effect have 7 ingredients also? They’ve only listed a few. No matter what companies are going to overlap in ingredients being used. I love CEL and It’s fair game in the industry. HOWEVER, I do find it comical that some of the same people who hate vector are getting so excited when they see the exact same ingredients listed on CELs product.
Absolutely. It's weird -it's like would people rather us leave some out and give them less for their money? It's the customer would lose in that scenario. But plus, the ingredients being bickered about (Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix) are not even the primary or significant ingredients in the formula. The formula would be absolutely outstanding even without them.

I think the reason that even the people that didn't care for Vector are so excited is kind of what i was saying above - Anabolic Effect has 7 active ingredients including 4 licensed branded ingredients so even if the EJ and RR weren't in there, it's an incredible formula.

But the inspiration for using those ingredients didn’t come from somewhere else.

SNS had been toying with using those ingredient since ~2014, well before a similar product hit the market. This was corroborated by a former formulator for SNS
You would think that corroboration for someone that is no longer with SNS and has been with other companies since and that is one of the most respected posters on this forum would've been all the corroboration needed. I was vague because I didn't want to name him by name but then he posted it himself in the thread and you would think that would have settled that part.
 
sns8778

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I will not name the brand and if someone else wants to, that's fine but there has been a supplement being teased from months now and the first few ingredients were released recently and 3 of the 4 released ingredients are a copy of a natural anabolic that's popular on this forum. Yet no one has even brought it up. Even saw in their thread people saying they were excited about the new product but have said in the past they didnt get anything from the ingredients in the current product. It bothers me that no one has even thought to say hey, this company put this out here and it worked so well, that we decided to include it in our formula, instead of acting like the ingredients weren't made popular in another product. Give credit where it is do, especially if you are going to basically copy the doses except for 2x one of em.
Not ignoring this one; everything is addressed in detail in the below posts.

For those reading, we did not copy the formula except for 2x one of the ingredients. Our formula has 7 ingredients including 4 licensed branded ingredients and 3 ingredients overlap with someone else's formula and one of those we use 2 x the dose.

No one said the ingredients are novel or that no studies existed but lets be honest here, how many supps was using even one of those ingredients before Vector? Same thing when BLR released OG Folli, epi was not mass marketed. They reformulate it and include more and then those ingredients start popping up also. I dont care or mind if people use ingredients, its inevitable but I dislike when companies act like they came up with this combo when in fact its stolen from someone else. Just give credit where its do. The OL thing has been beaten to death countless times. No reason go bring them up.

To say hey we had a product years ago but decided not to release it but now we are using the same doses of the 3 from a competitor seems sketchy. Don't care who the company is. Healthy competition is fine and good for us consumers but don't throw that BS out there man.
If companies are giving credit to the first company to combine certain ingredients, a crap load of companies owe us credit over the years for the nootropic combination in the original Focus XT at the time, for Cycle Assist, topical Formestane (w/ that particular carrier), etc. Also, every pre-workout today that has Citrulline Malate and Beta Alanine should be paying their respects to MAN. In all the years and all the formulas of ours that companies have borrowed inspiration from (copied), it has rarely ever occurred to me to be upset about it. A couple times I've been annoyed by it when they claimed to be first, but never commented publicly on it.

I'm fine to answer and address any of your questions - this post here is the only one I really have a problem with because you're basically accusing me and Synapsin of both being liars.

I politely explained (just as I explain below (I'm replying to your messages from bottom to top)) how the development process for this product worked in the thread in that it started with us being asked for a KME product and the first 4 ingredient additions were branded ingredients and then the EJ and RR were added from going through old ingredient and formulation notes and because of possible synergistic effects with some of the branded ingredients, not even the KME. I was initially vague and didn't mention Synapsin because he hasn't been with SNS in many years and I didn't want to put him on a spot but he came into the thread without being asked and confirmed that he had discussed the idea of using EJ and RR together in a product in 2014 and that the product had gotten as far as having a name and the quoting process and only didn't materialize because we couldn't get the proper extracts for other ingredients we wanted to use with it at a good price at the time. He hasn't been with SNS in I don't remember how many years so he has absolutely no reason to lie at all.

I was much more transparent than most would be about the product design process and the EJ and RR part was verified by one of the smartest and most respected posters on this forum as having originated with him. I'm not sure what else a person could do in terms of transparency on this.

Read through every comment in the thread. And no it wasn't preemptively, as he only brought it up after someone else commentedIts not bizarre when 3 ingredients never used before together appear together in another product. Its not caffeine and BA. This also is what driving the thread. A FWUCK ton of people who claim Vector either did not work or said the formula was nothing special sure are coming in strong about how awesome this product is going to be.

At the end of the day, you can call the thread a joke or a weird call out but if anyone here produced something whether it a supplement, a paper, or food, then added to it, and the market acted like the inspiration wasn't drawn from a source then you would be upset if it was your source material it was drawn from. Love SNS and use a crap ton of their products. The issue isnt with the company and them using the ingredients, its in acting as if the inspiration didnt come from somewhere else.
Actually, it was preemptively. We had a guessing thing going in the thread where people were guessing at ingredients. Korean Mistletoe was fairly obvious and was guessed right away. When Eriobotrya Japonica was guessed, a couple people made comparisons that could've been considered more anti-BLR in a way and I asked that comparisons not be made because it was disrespectful to both them and us. At that time, I went ahead and confirmed the Rehmannaie Raddix to get it out of the way to avoid future conflict about it. I went into a great amount of time and detail explaining the design process and explained that the product started when we were asked to do a KME product and that 4 branded ingredients were added and then the EJ and RR were pulled from old ingredient notes. That wasn't me just saying that; I was vague because the person that the original idea was discussed with isn't with SNS anymore and I didn't want to put him on the spot. Synapsin came into the thread without being asked and confirmed that it was him and I that had had the idea to use those together in 2014.

As for people being excited about the product that claimed Vector didn't work or was nothing special, I think the reason they are excited is because Anabolic Effect has 2 grams of KME so they may be hoping a higher dosage works for them and/or that they figure that even if the EJ and RR don't work for them, there are still 5 more active ingredients in the formula!

No ones source material (if you mean raw material suppliers) was drawn from - Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix have been on raw material supplier lists since at least 2014. I have no idea who BLR sources their products from and its none of my business. I'm not one to EVER snoop into who another company is using for anything. I've been in the industry long enough to have plenty of sources and have helped other companies for years source raw materials, many times just to be nice and with no financial reward for doing so.

We specifically said where the inspiration came from:
- Korean Mistletoe Extract - inspiration came from being asked on here.
- Eriobotrya Japonica and Rehmannaie Raddix - inspiration came from (as I specified in the thread) conversations back in 2014 with someone else about product ideas at that time. I was vague in the thread but Synapsin himself came into the thread and verified that it was him that had discussed ideas with me in 2014; he even confirmed he still had the notes himself. So yes, the inspiration was confirmed vaguely by me
 
sns8778

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Vector also uses a 100:1 extract. While your statement is fair, the comparison isn't. Using vaso 6 isnt the same as using 3 extracts never used together before and saying well we thought of it 5 years ago so its not the same thing.
Cycle Assist - people have copied our entire formula; I didn't complain.

Focus XT - dang near every nootropic drink mix released for years after the original formula people copied more than 3 ingredients from it; I never complained.

I respectfully think you're missing the big picture. We didn't copy their formula and double the dose of the Korean Mistletoe Extract. We were asked to do a KME product and the design idea started with that and 4 licensed branded ingredients were added. Then EJ and RR were added from old formulation notes because they fit the formula well. And to clarify, they fit the formula well because of possible synergistic effects with 2 of the ingredients that haven't been revealed yet, so the addition of them actually had nothing to do with adding them to KME, it was to add them with the other ingredients.

I didn't just say we thought of it 5 years ago. I explained the design process very thoroughly and transparently and at first didn't mention the name of the person I originally had the ingredient discussions with because he is no longer with SNS. He posted in the thread later himself verifying that he and I had discussed the idea in 2014 and had a formula in place using them. Even if you don't believe me, he has zero interest in the matter and is one of the most respected posters on this forum so I would think his word would have meant something verifying that.


There is no reason to continue to bicker about this. I hope that my explanations make sense to you. I have taken a very long time out of a Saturday evening to address your points and to respectfully reply to you. I'm perfectly fine with replying to you and addressing your points and I'm not upset with you in any way other than I don't appreciate me or Synapsin being called liars. I go out of my way to interact and show a high level of transparency with people here and Synapsin is one of the smartest and most well respected members here.
 
sns8778

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I was originally going to make another post and insert quotes from the other thread, but in an effort to keep things simple, anyone that wants to read them can see them in the Anabolic Effect thread. They may not look right if quoted into this thread because of the context of them and most of what I wanted to say, I incorporated into the other replies.
 
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without being god, can not obviously say *every single supplement* not original (but maybe!) - but i say most idea come from contract mfg or company person scouring pubmed and related databases with terms like "anabolic", "strength", "muscle", "testosterone", "fat loss", etc... then they see if ingredient available and what cost. if make sense (profit margin), they throw in capsule. dosing *should* be what was used in study they base purchase on. hopefully at HED if not human, lol - but will use as little as will sell to make most money. epi come from Nestle if i correct in thinking - "squeeze old man! squeeze!" hahahaha
You are absolutely right. Most of the raw materials that you see companies using come from raw material supplier lists. Company XYZ sees it and then looks into it to determine whether it has merit. Occasionally, you'll have a case where someone sees something on Pubmed and then tries to source it.

I've acknowledged in other threads that SNS formulations and CEL formulations tend to rely on ingredients that have a track record of actually working and not just looking good on paper because we respect that most people want a product that works vs. spending their hard earned money being a guinea pig for a new ingredient that may or may not work. However, just like in the thread we have going for things that people would like to see from us, we do have the SNS Baseline Series which are single ingredient items. Some of the Baseline Series items are commodity ingredients like ZMA, Agamtine, Citrulline Malate, etc. Others are branded and specialty ingredients like VASO6 capsules and GlycerPump capsules. But a beautiful thing about the Baseline series too is that it allows to try out new ingredients if enough people want them. Like in the thread about what do you want to see from us, if enough people ask for something, we will be glad to do one for them under that - but when we do something like that, we don't give some over hyped BS sales pitch on it - it's more of a 'hey, you guys asked us for this so here it is, let us know what you think'. That way no one can say we sold them on something or be upset if it doesn't work - because that's the thing with new ingredients, no matter how great they look on paper, sometimes it just doesn't work out in the real world.
 
Ptlhains

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Can't think of much that SNS has brought to the industry. They are just one of those companies that copy or obtain and sell whatever is already known to make money (Xgels for example and many others since that time). Can't blame them. Its just business. I personally support OG cause I have respect for their R and D, hard work and to fund them so they can bring more to the industry. Which is something you rarely get from copy cats.
 
Raw Dog

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Can't think of much that SNS has brought to the industry. They are just one of those companies that copy or obtain and sell whatever is already known to make money (Xgels for example and many others since that time). Can't blame them. Its just business. I personally support OG cause I have respect for their R and D, hard work and to fund them so they can bring more to the industry. Which is something you rarely get from copy cats.
Maybe my memory fails me here, but I feel like Reduce XT and inhibit P were both pretty innovative for their time. Could be wrong as I was young then and I’m just going from memory.

That said I feel like Focus XT was definitely innovative when it launched, noots have taken off recently but that is the first comprehensive product that I can recall in that category and a damn effective one at that.
 
BloodManor

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I love trying new products and love when there is different versions of similar (not same) products. It’s what keeps the supp game fun.
 
mechka_grizli

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There is no reason to continue to bicker about this. I hope that my explanations make sense to you. I have taken a very long time out of a Saturday evening to address your points and to respectfully reply to you. I'm perfectly fine with replying to you and addressing your points and I'm not upset with you in any way other than I don't appreciate me or Synapsin being called liars. I go out of my way to interact and show a high level of transparency with people here and Synapsin is one of the smartest and most well respected members here.
Agreed and I apologize for the "liar" accusation. Words came out stronger than I intended but it was still said so an apology is needed.
 
sns8778

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Maybe my memory fails me here, but I feel like Reduce XT and inhibit P were both pretty innovative for their time. Could be wrong as I was young then and I’m just going from memory.

That said I feel like Focus XT was definitely innovative when it launched, noots have taken off recently but that is the first comprehensive product that I can recall in that category and a damn effective one at that.
I think its easy for some people to forget the innovative things we've done or had come out because we have so many products, and especially so many single ingredient products.

Plus, what is the definition of innovative?

Definition #1:
Does that mean coming out with a new ingredient that may or may not work and treating customers like they are supposed to pay to be a guinea pig?

If that's a persons definition, I can proudly say that no, we don't do that in any of our formulation products. I explained that in great detail above - that we have and will continue to listen to what customers want ingredient wise (like in the tell us what you want from us thread) and will offer new things under the Baseline Series without overhyping them for people that want to try them. But for formulation items, the average person wants to spend their hard earned money on products that work and that's why we prefer to rely on clinically researched key ingredients.

Definition #2:
Or does innovation mean offering consumers clinically researched ingredients that are proven effective and using them together at effective dosages, essentially offering consumers the absolute best products at the best prices?

That's one of the things that we do and will continue to do. For example, Joint Support XT is the first and only product to combine clinically studied and licensed/branded ingredients NEM Natural Eggshell Membrane, Paractin, and Boswellin in the same product and we do that and offer it at a lesser price than some companies sell Paractin solo.

Your examples + more:
Reduce XT - definitely is/was.
Inhibit-P - was the first prolactin control product on the market as far as I recall.
Inhibit-E - was the very first comprehensive natural anti-estrogen after ATD and 6-Bromo were banned.
Growth Factor XT - was extremely innovative for its time and way more advanced than anything else.
Joint Support XT - explained above.
Focus XT - the original version was the first highly dosed nootropic energy drink (I only know of 1 at all that was marketed before Focus XT and the dosages were much lower).
Lean Edge - the new Lean Edge is the most comprehensive stimulant free fat burner that I've ever seen and combines 15 active ingredients including 5 licensed branded ingredients in one product. Plus, it's the first that I've seen use Prickly Ash Bark, and ingredient that has great data on it but notice that we don't harp on that or over-hype it.
Liver Assist XT - we were using Artichoke Extract and Curcumin (95%) in Liver Assist XT for the last 8 or 9 years, long before these ingredients were 'popular' or 'cool' and that was because they work. We just aren't the type of company to go around saying woohoo, pat us on the back for using these ingredients.

We have a lot of products coming up and it'll be a good mix. There will be more commodity items coming to the Baseline Series, plenty of ingredients that people are asking for in the thread added to the Baseline Series, several very high end products added to the Health Series, and some products added to the Sports Nutrition Series that are so comprehensive and use so many branded ingredients that I think people will be pleasantly surprised.
 
sns8778

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Agreed and I apologize for the "liar" accusation. Words came out stronger than I intended but it was still said so an apology is needed.
Thank you. I really appreciate and respect that. I really mean that.

And I really do hope that I addressed you comments/questions to an acceptable level. I try to treat everyone with respect and in this case, put my Saturday evening into replying to you and this thread in an effort to address this issue and show that we/I really do care. We never intentionally target any other company or products, that's just not us. To me, what we do is all about delivering the absolute best products at the best prices.
 
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I look at all these products that envision ingredients in their own ways like the Monday Night Wars WWF V.S. WCW...both wrestling, but different presentations...and one of the best times of competition ever. It forces companies to compete and come out with better product. Look at WWE and how stale it is with no competition.
 
Aleksandar37

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I was originally going to make another post and insert quotes from the other thread, but in an effort to keep things simple, anyone that wants to read them can see them in the Anabolic Effect thread. They may not look right if quoted into this thread because of the context of them and most of what I wanted to say, I incorporated into the other replies.
I think you've gone above and beyond to be honest. You could have probably just linked to the other thread where you already explained, but I know it gets old hearing this sort of thing, even if it is an innocent misinterpretation. There have been companies and will be companies in the future who simply repackage other people's ideas and there will be companies that continue to put stuff out that is "novel" but not actually based on science and therefore doesn't do anything. You guys have more than proven yourself over the years. I've watched companies put stuff out and barely change the name of the product they're copying. I've also seen a company on here come out with products that were blatant rip-offs and have their reps badmouth the original company when they had been praising the original company 6 months earlier. That doesn't create a healthy competitive environment and it certainly doesn't encourage progress, so thank you for continuing to put out quality stuff.
 
Jiigzz

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Can't think of much that SNS has brought to the industry. They are just one of those companies that copy or obtain and sell whatever is already known to make money (Xgels for example and many others since that time). Can't blame them. Its just business. I personally support OG cause I have respect for their R and D, hard work and to fund them so they can bring more to the industry. Which is something you rarely get from copy cats.
Then you know very little about SNS, lol.
 
DEVANS89

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I look at all these products that envision ingredients in their own ways like the Monday Night Wars WWF V.S. WCW...both wrestling, but different presentations...and one of the best times of competition ever. It forces companies to compete and come out with better product. Look at WWE and how stale it is with no competition.
I don’t know, AEW’s first PPV was pretty good

They just need to get Weekly tv show now
 
mbonheur

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BLR uses an extract that is stronger than what was used in studies regarding KM.
At least that is what they say. I am not a believer of 100:1, 200:1 or 1000:1 extracts, where nobody knows what is in there. You can only make educated guesses about the active ingredients.

Anyhow, I guess SNS is using plain powder then? Full spectrum in supplement language?
 
Ptlhains

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Then you know very little about SNS, lol.
I know SNS very well. IMO, nothing has ever been brought to market that is nearly as ground breaking as companies like Evomuse and BLR.
 
TommyTuffGuy

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I know SNS very well. IMO, nothing has ever been brought to market that is nearly as ground breaking as companies like Evomuse and BLR.
And Evomuse can’t keep its **** in stock. Which rules out the hardcores who want to purchase it often, which is its actual base customer.

Focus XT rivals anything BLR has done and was gigantic when it came out many years ago. And I like BLR and purchase many of their products.
 

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